B-4 After patch.

#1
4 years ago
Sure, B-4 got what it deserved with the nerf-hammer BUT "Removed precision strike" wasent necessary. If you were lucky you could gain veterancy to start using it before stuka bombing strike comes in and make this unit usless. So now you have to get lucky shots with it to gain acess to the direct-shot instead? Direct-shot for (the better) 90 mun now that's to often misses the target even if it got clear sight. A pak 43 emplacement it's more effectiv now that can shoot through trees and buildings fore some reason, and don't have to bardering being "one-shooted" from any russian unit/offmap ability now.

Otherwise the patch looking good.
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Comments

  • #2
    4 years ago
    KnighterKnighter Posts: 396
    It's a clear nerf overall. Despite the direct fire buffs it still have sh*t penetration. I like the range buff on vet but taking out both damage bonus and precise strike sucks.
  • #3
    4 years ago
    EpiC FAiLEpiC FAiL Posts: 560
    Well, more range at vet 3 also means less scatter.

    I actually like the change. Direct Shot is now more reliable while the precision strike can't just annihilate everything after vet 3 + FMR.

    Precision strike is fine for units like the ML-20/Katyusha/Mortars but the B4 got too powerful with it.
  • #4
    4 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    B-4 is more cost efficient than both ML-20 and LeFH and was not nerfed as those 2, that fire less shells than what they used to. The only problem the unit has is the animation circles it goes thru.
  • #5
    4 years ago
    AndTaxesAndTaxes Posts: 582
    B4s were amazing due to the synergy of the commander. They are now simply good. Speculative arty shots can still do a tonne of damage and the ever dirty speculative shots after a retreat can still be a huge pay off. Being able to prec. Strike his retreat point with a small nuclear wepon was simply too good.
  • #6
    4 years ago
    Glad this BS unit wiper got hammered. was about time. having both wiping capability and precision was kinda odd in the first place
  • #7
    4 years ago
    I love my B4, I think it's changes should be fine.
    The vet3 damage could get kind of ridiculous. The thing still hits really damn hard, and I usually used normal fire anyways. Direct Fire also got some changes I suggested a long ways back, so that's nice, along with being much cheaper to actually use. Now I just have to hope it tracks in a reasonable manner, but with object pen that should help.
  • #8
    4 years ago
    PeltitoPeltito Posts: 71
    Knighter wrote: »
    It's a clear nerf overall. Despite the direct fire buffs it still have sh*t penetration. I like the range buff on vet but taking out both damage bonus and precise strike sucks.

    Doesn't all artillery have 1000 penetration? Or does that change for direct fire?
  • #9
    4 years ago
    arbiter900arbiter900 Posts: 164
    Peltito wrote: »

    Doesn't all artillery have 1000 penetration? Or does that change for direct fire?
    Direct fire has actual pen values, I believe its somewhere 300ish. Not a big issue against most tanks aside for the KT and jagd.
  • #10
    4 years ago
    PeltitoPeltito Posts: 71
    Thank you Arbiter900. In which case, I'm not really getting harrison2142's remark. 300 pen is pretty good against any tank normally.
  • #11
    4 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,716
    Peltito wrote: »
    Thank you Arbiter900. In which case, I'm not really getting harrison2142's remark. 300 pen is pretty good against any tank normally.
    Normally, back when it cost 180mu tho.....
  • #12
    4 years ago
    AvnasAvnas Posts: 1,750
    removing an ability isn't the way to go at this stage. they should have just decreased the grouping on precision strike or redesigned the ability. this was what made me think the patch was an april fools. why would you actually remove an ability like 2 years after the game has been out
  • #13
    4 years ago
    Brandley2142Brandley2… Posts: 1,043
    Avnas wrote: »
    removing an ability isn't the way to go at this stage. they should have just decreased the grouping on precision strike or redesigned the ability. this was what made me think the patch was an april fools. why would you actually remove an ability like 2 years after the game has been out


    Because we were sniping heavy tanks from across the map.

    sometimes killing 2 or 3 of them with a single precision strike.....
  • #14
    4 years ago
    AvnasAvnas Posts: 1,750


    Because we were sniping heavy tanks from across the map.

    sometimes killing 2 or 3 of them with a single precision strike.....


    p47? .............
  • #15
    4 years ago
    Brandley2142Brandley2… Posts: 1,043
    Avnas wrote: »


    p47? .............

    I havent had a P47 outright kill a heavy tank.

    It has certainly finished off wounded heavies.

    but it has never pulled some of the stunts a B-4 can pull.
    Like the ever famous
    oops did i just accidentally kill two king tigers?

    as seen here
  • #16
    4 years ago
    To OP, you claim that your B4 gets destroyed by stuka, then you bring up the pack 43 almost as enforcer to your argument, pak43 cab be destroyed just as easily by a bombing run, shoot even a B4 itself. Not everyone goes with a commander with the stuka either, the trick is is to wait till your opponent chooses a commander then you can perhaps pick B4 if it's safe, instead of choosing it at the start of every game you enter. Having bullitens hint the enemy of your intensions as well
  • #17
    4 years ago
    It's good that precision strike got removed, this ability just spits on the spirit of coh2. It's just a cheap one click win ability, needs no skill and is not counterable for an okw player. Now you actually have to risk something and put the unit nearer to the front to reduce the scatter.

    The b4 was broken beyond reason, one shotting 200+ fuel units without any warning what so ever. Anybody who still defends the no skill precision strike on the b4 clearly has no interest in a fair, skill based game.
  • #18
    4 years ago
    GlytheGlythe Posts: 1,125
    I love my B4, I think it's changes should be fine.
    The vet3 damage could get kind of ridiculous.

    The problem with the old bonuses (especially at vet 3) is that you could stack them to one shot tanks with pinpoint accuracy. It's good this cheese was removed because the B4 was way too good with precision strike. It makes there be no reason to ever want to use the other artillery doctrine and that's bad design. The old B4 with the old damage stacking boosts had the highest damage potential of all 3 artillery positions and that was just not right considering it was 100% front loaded damage from a single shot. That was bad balance.

    As someone who used the B4 religiously said... never use direct fire always use precision strike. He had a very valid point because precision was ALWAYS better previously and that's messed up. As the largest artillery gun it didn't make sense for this guy to have precision strike and now the unit overall makes more sense.

    To the OP Attempted Murder makes a very good point in that your commander choice generally should either be in response to the enemy's pick or to force him to make a specific commander choice in response to your choice. This is a HUGE part of the pvp game not present with comp-stomps and not realizing how this works is a ltp issue. There is a lot of interaction with what choices counter each other. Many people only choose the B4 when the enemy has no option for stuka+recon just to be safe.


    Overall I think the B4 got changed to a far better unit in terms of counter play. I'd still have it as choice #2 on my bar for the soviets. It's still got a lot of front loaded damage and can severely damage or finish off medium tanks that get cocky. The motherland buff also gives it a nice accuracy boost and is much better balanced than the old precision shot.


    In response to Anvas I have to say look at what they did to the G43 doctrines. It used to be a flat upgrade and it was made into a sidegrade (aka nerf).
  • #19
    4 years ago
    Kyo GnomeKyo Gnome Posts: 69
    I think that the changes to the B4 are about right. Although, having to get a lucky shot in order to use direct fire will kill the usefulness of the unit because of the ridiculous hard counters stuka drops its one bomb with no red flare and no plane to even "try" to shoot down. And then is even the better AT strafe from the CAS commander which cant even be shot down by 2 AA half-tracks. Personally, I think there needs to be a much hard AA counter available to help the survival rate of the B4 and force the enemy into long rush or flanking maneuvers to get line of sight instead of just auto hard counter.
  • #20
    4 years ago
    To OP, you claim that your B4 gets destroyed by stuka, then you bring up the pack 43 almost as enforcer to your argument, pak43 cab be destroyed just as easily by a bombing run, shoot even a B4 itself. Not everyone goes with a commander with the stuka either, the trick is is to wait till your opponent chooses a commander then you can perhaps pick B4 if it's safe, instead of choosing it at the start of every game you enter. Having bullitens hint the enemy of your intensions as well

    The current OH meta for team games is to have at least one (possibly more than one) player go for CAS, which means Stukka bombing strike is almost always (75-80% of the time) in play. Not just big 4v4's either, it's extremely common in 2v2. If you see that the opponent has a CAS in their bulletin load-out, you don't go for Counter-attack Tactics because you can't risk it.

    Also, while "wait for opponent's commander choice to be clear" is good advice in general, in this specific matchup it doesn't really work. Soviets must decide on their doctrine fairly early to give access to their elite infantry (Shocks or Guards). Additionally, because fuel-convert doesn't have a distinctive "tell" (like a cargo plane) there is no way to know if they've gone that unless you pay a lot of attention and try to gague their munitions usage, or wait until like 5-6cp mark until their abilities start showing up.
  • #21
    4 years ago
    OptimismOptimism Posts: 43
    I'd argue that the B4 is in a junkyard spot in COH2 now. It lacks the impressive presence that it used to have in being the only unit in the Soviet arsenal I knew of able to make the heaviest German tanks quake with fear to stay mobile, lest they be blown to bits if they stay still and in the enemies sight for a good fifteen seconds. I can see what this patch intended to do with the B4, however I think the nerf was excessive. Trying to make the direct fire ability shine when it's never been the primary use of the artillery gun to fire head on at tanks and never will be will not make the ability much more attractive, especially when indirect fire is generally more reliable, at least from what I've seen.

    Now, I'm speaking from guesses here, but I believe it's already been restricted from firing into spawns with the new patch, or maybe before. I don't play COH2 too often, so pardon me. Anyways, the OKW, which was the primary target of this monster, again, from my experience, makes a very tempting target with mobile bases out in the field, waiting to get destroyed by precision strikes. Especially the forward retreat point truck, which makes a very sweet target when the enemy retreats his infantry. I can understand the concern with this thing, since it was like a hand of God waiting to pluck the lives of your entire infantry base, should you retreat them all at once and be caught unawares. HOWEVER, I would say this scales with risk for reward. The OKW can already get heavy early game field presence with this fortified medical truck as a retreat point, and it's temptingly easy to use it as a rally point for infantry blobbing. In my opinion, if you're retreating large enough numbers of infantry to this forward command post to be worried of losing, and you don't want to lose them, it's safer and more reasonable to use your base retreat point or to put said truck in your base as a precaution, especially if you're aware there's a B4, as you should be if it's gotten the experience to be veterancy one already.

    The B4 itself was a very heavy hard counter to infantry massing and heavy tank parking. The chances of you losing heavy tanks to sniping across the map was slim, since the pre-patch B4 was unlikely to destroy it in a single shot without veterancy level three, and if it had accumulated said veterancy already you should hopefully be aware and keep heavy tanks on the move, since it's cone of fire is very small and its rotation and set up takes time.

    I agree the howitzer deserved a tune-down, since it felt absurd before, but I don't think this was the way to go about it. The area of effect seems to have suffered, the nudge towards using direct fire isn't tempting, and the precision strike was its greatest ability.

    I'd just say the following as my opinion and purely my own. I believe the nerf should have increased the reload time, to give Axis players more time to recover after a severe smash from this once godly gun. I'd also say the precision strike, being the most powerful ability, should perhaps be unlocked at veterancy level three, the area of effect of the gun or its base damage slightly increased since this last patch, the direct fire ability simply replaced with something else since it just doesn't interest even with the reduced cost, and make the precision strike cost more munitions. Another idea is perhaps the gun could make a louder firing noise, a little like the Katyushas, to give Axis players more time to react, although I'd say if you keep your heavy tanks still for more than fifteen seconds on the field you bought it on yourself if you knew this thing was out there.

    Another side suggestion is perhaps to remove the recon flight from the commander, to prevent you from being able to spot and fire on vulnerable targets with quick succession.
  • #22
    4 years ago
    OptimismOptimism Posts: 43

    I havent had a P47 outright kill a heavy tank.

    It has certainly finished off wounded heavies.

    but it has never pulled some of the stunts a B-4 can pull.
    Like the ever famous
    oops did i just accidentally kill two king tigers?

    as seen here

    The B4 killed one half-health King Tiger and reduced the other half-health one to near death. This was after the Axis player had the opportunity to see the B4 shells explode in front of him, kept said expensive heavy tanks still while they were flanked by IS-2s, and also kept them bunched up next to each other like ripe apples. He was begging to lose them, really. Hardly a surprise the B4 user obliged him.
  • #23
    4 years ago
    ValkyrieValkyrie Posts: 2,132
    This would be a good time to fix the millions of bugs the B4 has with it's turning.
  • #24
    4 years ago
    phosgene89phosgene89 Posts: 369
    Funny how plane crashes stay in-game no matter the effect on balance because someone at Relic thinks they are fun. But with the B-4, which was arguably the most fun artillery in the game because of precision strike, the fun part just gets randomly removed. There were so many other ways to balance the B-4 that didn't make it into a crappy pak that can also hit something with a barrage a few times per game. Not to mention that direct strike often misses altogether!
  • #25
    4 years ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 231
    Thinking about how many counters this unit has it was even a gambling pre-patch to choice the B-4 commander for this unit. If the enemy spoted a recon plan he could sugest there was B-4 coming and simply choiced a commander with stuka bombing strike, wicht make this unit totaly usless in late game when needed at most. However, the nerf was okay with the bonus damage and so on. But taking away the pressiionstrike along with that makes this unit not worth gambling to choice anymore becouse of it's cost and fear to be usless.

    I have tryed a few games with it and if you can spear for 2 B-4 it makes not that much impact in late game with random straikes that never hits the intend target. Ofcourse i understand the concern about the OKW base being bombed with P.Strikes, but that was already fixed i think with the nerf of the high damage it did when vet 3. If a OKW player blobed and retreaing his hole squad to his FW truck station? Well, than he have to blame him self if couched by arty strike like much as USF retreating to a major and a well planed hit by walking stuka coming...

    Plz give it's pressionstrike back or at least make a 500MP unit.
  • #26
    4 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,716
    one would have thought that changing FMR and the vet 3 that removing precision strike wouldn't be necessary, as it would have already been unable to one shot anything but a medium
  • #27
    4 years ago
    GlytheGlythe Posts: 1,125
    Optimism wrote: »
    I'd argue that the B4 is in a junkyard spot in COH2 now. It lacks the impressive presence that it used to have....

    I can see what this patch intended to do with the B4, however I think the nerf was excessive. Trying to make the direct fire ability shine when it's never been the primary use of the artillery gun to fire head on at tanks and never will be will not make the ability much more attractive, especially when indirect fire is generally more reliable, at least from what I've seen.

    I agree the howitzer deserved a tune-down, since it felt absurd before, but I don't think this was the way to go about it. The area of effect seems to have suffered, the nudge towards using direct fire isn't tempting, and the precision strike was its greatest ability.

    The old vet 3 bonus with precision shot and for the Motherland was extremely excessive. If that's what you expect artillery to do then I suggest you try the other two artillery pieces. If you think the B4 belongs in a junkyard then you should really spend some time with the LeFH18 as it's a rusty BB gun by comparison.

    Go read the definitive guide on the B4 pre-nerf. I forget the author but he advises to never use Direct fire and he was right. That was a clear indication that something was wrong with one ability or the other.

    The bottom line is that the B4 is still a really great unit. You shoot at any target rich environment and it hits with devastating effect. Unlike the other two fixed artillery units the B4 is still 100% front loaded damage while the others will waste 75% of their shots or more against a good opponent (who moved out of the barrage after the first impact).

    As a doctrine package the B4 also comes with shock troops and a heavy tank. It's a very impressive combination and I think you really need to take a good look at how much better the B4 package is compared to all the others.

    I think relic made perfect changes to the B4. It's no longer a long range tank sniper rifle that can stack 2 massive damage buffs. It's no longer a replacement for offmap special attacks but It still does a really great job delivering support fire.
  • #28
    4 years ago
    Needs 800 damage to instakill a Panther too and then it becomes just fine. I started using it up close and personal for that more accurate barrage and that's how it should be in my opinion.
  • #29
    4 years ago
    OptimismOptimism Posts: 43
    Glythe wrote: »

    The old vet 3 bonus with precision shot and for the Motherland was extremely excessive. If that's what you expect artillery to do then I suggest you try the other two artillery pieces. If you think the B4 belongs in a junkyard then you should really spend some time with the LeFH18 as it's a rusty BB gun by comparison.

    Go read the definitive guide on the B4 pre-nerf. I forget the author but he advises to never use Direct fire and he was right. That was a clear indication that something was wrong with one ability or the other.

    The bottom line is that the B4 is still a really great unit. You shoot at any target rich environment and it hits with devastating effect. Unlike the other two fixed artillery units the B4 is still 100% front loaded damage while the others will waste 75% of their shots or more against a good opponent (who moved out of the barrage after the first impact).

    As a doctrine package the B4 also comes with shock troops and a heavy tank. It's a very impressive combination and I think you really need to take a good look at how much better the B4 package is compared to all the others.

    I think relic made perfect changes to the B4. It's no longer a long range tank sniper rifle that can stack 2 massive damage buffs. It's no longer a replacement for offmap special attacks but It still does a really great job delivering support fire.

    I'll consider as much of what you said as I can. The old For Mother Russia ability stack was definitely excessive, but they've already put a stop to that with a change to accuracy. Perhaps the LeFH18 is a poorly performing artillery gun, and the Axis are not known for their fixed artillery regardless, but I see the point. Maybe it's something to be considered in another thread.

    I don't really read many guides, and there's not much point reading a pre-nerf one for the artillery gun now. However, if they come out with one for the gun now, maybe I'll look at it.

    As for hitting target rich environments to great effect... I can't say from in-multiplayer experience, but my friend and I experimented with both the B4 howitzer and the 152 mm howitzer against some bunched up Fallschirmjager around an OKW medical truck after the update: a common target before the nerf. We found the B4 almost pathetically ineffective in comparison to it's 'little brother'. It seemed from the experiments that the B4's shell dealt little to no damage outside the actual blast area, only killing models caught within the blast radius, and not around. The massive scatter of the large shell also prevented it from ever dealing substantial damage to the squads, even after multiple shots. The 152 mm fires more rounds in a use, and the shells damage and kill models both inside the shell explosion radius and nearby. I'd also argue that seldom have I ever sniped the heavy tanks of a 'good opponent' with this weapon, since they're sufficiently aware to outmaneuver the firing cone and know not to keep their armor immobile for extended periods of time.

    Yes, I liked the commander, but wouldn't rely on the doctrine as an effective choice for a game at this point, since the weapon that was its effective response to large amounts of infantry, a substitute for an off-map call-in, and a reliable counter to parked unaware enemy armor strong points is no longer as effective as its job. Look at how much more the B4 packs in effectiveness, you say? It's a reasonably large investment, fires one shot, has large amounts of scatter without veterancy at ranges, and seems to struggle to counter massed infantry, even when said infantry stays still. Direct fire on armor is laughable when indirect fire does more consistent damage and isn't afflicted by bugs. It would have been less of a bother perhaps, if of old, the precision strike had cost 180 munitions or such, and the direct fire 90, though I still wouldn't use direct fire.

    I think the changes made were sloppy, and find the gun an unwanted investment now. The support fire is unreliably accurate and suffers too much at longer ranges for a weapon that can only fire one shot, and the AOE wouldn't hurt to have a mild increase so it deals damage to infantry sitting on the ground just outside the blast. It was also generally only a long-range tank sniper rifle to those unaware or slow to react, even pre-patch. The video of the 'two killed King Tigers' was a good example.

    I'd suggest that the gun shouldn't have it's saving grace ability torn off, but rather have a munitions increase for the ability's use and perhaps a longer reload time, to encourage paying attention and being careful when you invest in the shot. In its present state, its efficiency for its cost is undesirable.
  • #30
    4 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    One can not complain that B-4 is under-performing since it perform better the LeFH or ML-20 while it cost the same and comes at the same CP. Now if one want to argue that stationary artillery piece under-perfom it is another story but then one should not start from the B-4 since it more cost efficient and will win in most duels against the other 2.
  • #31
    4 years ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 231
    Concider how much mun you have to spend before on try to hit o tank with one shot it never really pays off. Recon 80 mun (to spot the target) + Mother russia 100 mun + Pression strike 90 = 270 mun, you surly dont want to miss the target than right? Anyhow, sence mother ussia now no longer effects arty and tank units along with the vet 3 bonus nerf they could keeped the pression strike on it at least. Gave it at vet 2 or vet 3, just don't get rid of it totally! Poor decision..
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