Honestly, why is the Tiger ace still push to win?

#1
4 years ago
It's not quite fair, how I rofl stomp a player through skill and coordination, and he comes back with nothing but a tiger ace and wins. Lemme explain. Throughout the entire game, I have almost the whole map and VPs, and decide to go Airborne. He takes heavy losses, through Grenadier spam, and Mg spam, so I beat him good. He rolls out a Panzer IV late game, so I flank with dropped 57mm gun and M3A3. He has lost most of his veteran troops, and continues to take heavy losses, whilst I hold most of the map and maintain a Veteran army, with several paratroopers, pahfinders, riflemen, a 57mm gun, a M3A3, and a Jackson. I'm about to rape his base, but alas. The mighty Tiger Ace. He proceeds to charge my gun, unmans and destroys it, goes at my base, destroys the Jackson there, destroy my M3A3, and it's still at half health. So I use rifleman AT grenade, and damage engine that beast. Finally, I use P 47 airstrike I had been saving up. I takes it down to a quarter, yet it crawls away, me having lost several Paratroopers and infantry in the process, and him spamming engineers and capping the whole map. Ya know, I pumped out 2 more Jacksons because I'm bloody pissed, and he charges them, full health, and destroys both. I immediately capitulate.

Why. After playing effectively and smart the whole game, he Push a button, he uses no skill to charge all my units, and flees. I'm lost. Honestly. Balance is such an issue, so why I continue to play, is almost beyond me. He lost a Panzer IV, several Vet Grenadiers, several vet Mgs, Sh*t tonnes of engineers, and most of the map. What pisses me off more then how he utterly wrecked my army with one unit, is how cheap it was. 800 MP, no fuel, no teching up. Just absolute Push to win. No Tactics, no Coordination, no Skill.
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Comments

  • #2
    4 years ago
    PhilBowlesPhilBowles Posts: 978
    While I've experienced the same and the Tiger Ace is too dominant once it arrives (especially as the US has limited anti-heavy tank capability), I'd question whether you were playing that well relative to your opponent if he was able to gain enough fuel to tech to and build a Tiger Ace (plus at least one other tank) before you've already won.
  • #3
    4 years ago
    RPhilMan1RPhilMan1 Posts: 417
    Did he not choose a doctrine until the last minute or something?

    Did his Grenadiers have G43s?

    Did he vet up his units?

    Did you see stun grenades?

    You should have known it was coming.

    First of all, the Stuart is terrible. Secondly, your only anti-tank was a single 57mm and a single Jackson? And you are playing against Ostheer?

    No offense but it sounds like you didn't plan that well at all. If you had dominant map control you should have built an M20 and mined everywhere as well.
    PhilBowles wrote: »
    I'd question whether you were playing that well relative to your opponent if he was able to gain enough fuel to tech to and build a Tiger Ace (plus at least one other tank) before you've already won.

    There is no tech or fuel needed for a TA.
  • #4
    4 years ago
    I need to see this replay. I hate to not believe your story because there can be a WHOLE lot of bull in this game BUT I need to see a REPLAY. You make it seem like this happens ALL the time. WE cannot change the game just because this happens to you once or twice. HOWEVER, I can sense your frustration and I have definitely been there but only against the EXPERT AI (because they are NOTORIOUS cheaters). When I have control of the map, the game is already over. Destroying the enemy base if just a formality at this point even if pops out a tiger ace at the last second before I invade. I laugh at the concept of mining the map, TOO COSTLY AND TIME CONSUMING, its more important to use your resources to build an insurmountable lot of bazooka troops which along with that 57 would neutralize that tank. The guy would just not have enough resources left to mount a counteroffensive against that IF and only IF you really did have control of the map. Sorry to pile on but the truth is if you really were in control the TIGER was just a last ditch effort that SHOULD NOT have led you to CAPITULATE.
  • #5
    4 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    I need to see this replay. I hate to not believe your story because there can be a WHOLE lot of bull in this game BUT I need to see a REPLAY. You make it seem like this happens ALL the time. WE cannot change the game just because this happens to you once or twice. HOWEVER, I can sense your frustration and I have definitely been there but only against the EXPERT AI (because they are NOTORIOUS cheaters). When I have control of the map, the game is already over. Destroying the enemy base if just a formality at this point even if pops out a tiger ace at the last second before I invade. I laugh at the concept of mining the map, TOO COSTLY AND TIME CONSUMING, its more important to use your resources to build an insurmountable lot of bazooka troops which along with that 57 would neutralize that tank. The guy would just not have enough resources left to mount a counteroffensive against that IF and only IF you really did have control of the map. Sorry to pile on but the truth is if you really were in control the TIGER was just a last ditch effort that SHOULD NOT have led you to CAPITULATE.
    Gentleman, take some tea, nobody here hitted you with a glove to get so mad, or you will end on the "axis fanboy starter pack" that, sadly, means that most of the ladies and gentlemens around here will ignore your posts and aswell getting cursed with the restless crusade of the anti-ubermen leaded by Genovi. Just a tip from this party-san
  • #6
    4 years ago
    BernhardtBernhardt Posts: 1,660
    US late game AT too fragile. Yes. But You should have won the game long before 15cp. Tiger Ace is meant to be the best unit in the game, too. So if you didnt have 80% map control and his army is like, 2/3 of yours, high chance that the unit will do what it was meant to do.
  • #7
    4 years ago
    comrade_daelincomrade_d… Posts: 2,948
    USF really needs more critical/ stun abilities. Currently the ONLY unit capable of such feats is Riflemen Stuart, and the first require vet1 (not an upgrade, but living long enugh), AND the AT rifle grenade s the worst of all critical abilitie, and the Stuart effectively requires sacrificing itself.
  • #8
    4 years ago
    Attempted MurderAttempted… Posts: 670
    Tiger ace is afraid of support, such as rifleman in front of AT guns, or Jackson at range with AT guns and riflemen. That said there should have been at least 3 Jackson's and 2 AT guns. It's simple to know what commander he has gone, also its simple to know what commanders he didn't go.....
  • #9
    4 years ago
    edibleshrapneledibleshr… Posts: 251
    Tiger ace is afraid of support, such as rifleman in front of AT guns, or Jackson at range with AT guns and riflemen. That said there should have been at least 3 Jackson's and 2 AT guns. It's simple to know what commander he has gone, also its simple to know what commanders he didn't go.....
    It's not easy acquiring 3 jackson and 2 AT guns, especially after he has only produced one tank. Funny though, I didn't expect him going Elite troops, because he didn't call in any Assault Grens, didn't use any Model 24s, I think he troop trained some Mgs, but other then that, I didn't copious amounts of anti tank.
  • #10
    4 years ago
    BernhardtBernhardt Posts: 1,660
    Even more reason for you to have won. Paras with either Lmg or Thompsons are among the best infantry the game has and should have given you a decisive advantage. in any team game I usually build 1 or 2 caches exactly to get either pathfinders or paras ASAP, through in my opinion you use one or the other, not both.
  • #11
    4 years ago
    OrionHunter88OrionHunt… Posts: 550
    Honestly sounds like you were playing too aggressive after a couple victories. Your unit comp by the time he has access to tiger ace is a bit weak. Jackson's work great in pairs.

    Also one snare we all seem to forget about is the M20 utility car. I have used it quite sucessfully before but it is easy to forget about - especially late game.

    Now about the Tiger Ace. I do agree that it is overly powerful - sure it's a 15 cp unit and it drains resources after its built and all. But what I find particularly frustrating is that all too often I can take it down almost nil HP and it slips away under smoke into an AT infested area where my featherweight Jacksons can't follow and anything else wouldn't be able to finish it off. It's got extremely high health/armor combined with comparatively fast speed. Still, I think the issue lies with USF's lack of decent mobile snares.
  • #12
    4 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    You mean Stuart?
  • #13
    4 years ago
    NalanoNalano Posts: 215
    It's not easy acquiring 3 jackson and 2 AT guns, especially after he has only produced one tank.

    So you played a reactive game instead of a predictive game, and got punished for it. If the dude's not building armor despite your lack of anti-armor, there's probably a reason.
  • #14
    4 years ago
    GrenadierIT19Grenadier… ItalyPosts: 575
    I use p47s and Jacksons, you can use a 57mm it's not so strong as the Jacksons but they're good at making some damages.
  • #15
    4 years ago
    GrenadierIT19Grenadier… ItalyPosts: 575
    It's the only way, USF suffer much when the enemies field heavy tanks, anyway i love playing as american.
  • #16
    4 years ago
    Snuggle_BunnyZSnuggle_B… Posts: 169
    i almost always field at least 2 jacksons no matter what his composition is because of the threat of call in late game tanks you should always during the loading screen take note of all doctrines available to your opponent and as the game goes on try figure out which one it is and prepare accordingly if its a doc with no late game tank call in(which it very rarely is with osther the only one that comes to mind that is frequently used is CAS)you can slack on jackson production otherwise always have a minimum of 2 on the field in the late game.
  • #17
    4 years ago
    BernhardtBernhardt Posts: 1,660
    It´s not even Tiger only. Brumbaer is a quite big late game threat as it is hard conter to Riflemen. Panthers are threat to Shermans. So no matter how you look at it at certain point it´s Always good to Jacksons.

    In my POV the biggest issue is the lack of non-doctrinal mine apart from M20 (which is excellent yes, but it´s a very expensive unti for late game US which is usually starving for MP)
  • #18
    4 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    Every faction has his own problems, for example, soviet strong units are all doctrinal because they are like that, USF is to fail in resistant armor but having high damage to specific units, OKW is to have just 1 tank and Ostherns... -.o.- dunno what problem have ostherns...
  • #19
    4 years ago
    BernhardtBernhardt Posts: 1,660
    Well, only problem they have is deciding where to spend ammunition. All abilities excellent, yes, but expensive.
  • #20
    4 years ago
    AchtAchterAchtAchter Posts: 78
    If you lose 3 Jacksons to a single Tiger Ace you really need to work on your micro.
    Jacksons have a higher range, are faster and reliably penetrate a tiger ace.
  • #21
    4 years ago
    dmsdms UKPosts: 531
    Tiger Ace should cost fuel and MP with no penalty, tied to tech and/or building and only 1 call-in at once like all heavies.
  • #22
    4 years ago
    edibleshrapneledibleshr… Posts: 251
    dms wrote: »
    Tiger Ace should cost fuel and MP with no penalty, tied to tech and/or building and only 1 call-in at once like all heavies.

    I agree, no fuel or teching is the OP part, especially in 1 vs 1. I don't care that fuel ceases and MP is downed by 25%, that thing is a Darn one unit army. The initial cost needs to be increased EXPONENTIALLY. I Would suggest 700 MP and 280 Fuel, which is a fair amount more then the average tiger. Taking that with having to wait 15 CP, and only being able to call in once, it would balance out more. 800 MP is such a push to win.
  • #23
    4 years ago
    White ]-[aloWhite ]-[… Posts: 278
    It's probably going to be CP 17 soon.
  • #24
    4 years ago
    LooneyLooney Posts: 77
    Tiger ace is a disgusting unit that completely goes vs Relic's intention to preserve units to get veterancy and punish players who lose squads.

    Werh is the best stock army that can survive without choosing a commander. Let's say you go head to head with your opponent, then when the game reaches 15 CPs you call in the ace and it's an instawin. If you lose the ace it's NP because your resource gain gets back to normal. I would suggest if you call it in and lose the ace the penalty remains.

    Vs soviet the ace is not that bad thanks to your mines, US on the other hand has only m20 mines which most of the times explosie in early and mid game, after the first m20 mine opponents get a sweeper. The best players don't even use the elite commander abilities. Only call in the ace. Let me remind people that the Jackson only has 5 more range them the tiger ace and it's sight range is way worse then the ace, which can scout for itself. The ace has stun ability as well, which used togheter with 1 SINGLE pak destroys EVERY medium tank US has.

    How can people actually admit the ace is balanced, it's the worst unit of the game. It has blitz, smoke, stun, insane range, insane sight range. It's disgusting. Oh right and i know how to play US so don't tell me to l2p, I'm top 20 in each game mode of US. This unit is disgusting and makes me rage 4Head.
  • #25
    4 years ago
    SturmgewehrSturmgewe… Posts: 211
    Everytime I play as US I never have an issue with the Tiger Ace. It's an easy unit to predict and an even easier one to control. If the game has gotten to the point that he has let loose a Tiger Ace then I've probably already got 2-3 Jacksons which immediately negate it. I've intentionally let a Tiger Ace live before just so that he would bleed Manpower and Fuel. Bleed his troops, bleed the support tanks. Once you stop seeing infantry out on the field consistently then kill it. The Jackson is an unbelievably powerful unit that can eliminate any heavy tank in the game with the exception of the oh so feared Elefant and Jagdtiger.
  • #26
    4 years ago
    LooneyLooney Posts: 77
    Everytime I play as US I never have an issue with the Tiger Ace. It's an easy unit to predict and an even easier one to control. If the game has gotten to the point that he has let loose a Tiger Ace then I've probably already got 2-3 Jacksons which immediately negate it. I've intentionally let a Tiger Ace live before just so that he would bleed Manpower and Fuel. Bleed his troops, bleed the support tanks. Once you stop seeing infantry out on the field consistently then kill it. The Jackson is an unbelievably powerful unit that can eliminate any heavy tank in the game with the exception of the oh so feared Elefant and Jagdtiger.


    You must be playing teamgames, because there's no way that you can get 2-3 jacksons in 1 vs 1 without losing the game. You understand that jacksons have zero AI right? Getting more then 1 jackson in 1 vs 1 is suicide.
    Tiger Ace is balanced in 4 vs 4, you can mass AT it, in 1 vs 1 it's not balanced vs US. Arguable it's not even balanced in 2 vs 2 vs US.

  • #27
    4 years ago
    SturmgewehrSturmgewe… Posts: 211
    US anti-infantry is powerful enough that generally I don't have to build any other armor other than jacksons. My basic composition in 1v1 consists of 2 rifle squads, 1 pathfinder, 2 Para's, 1 AT gun and 2 jacksons. I'll have an AA track if I can afford it. You can ALWAYS get 2 jacksons out long before he can get 15CP unless he's throwing units away. At which point you should have total map control.
  • #28
    4 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588
    It's the only way, USF suffer much when the enemies field heavy tanks, anyway i love playing as american.

    Why? The latest patch made M36 more effective against heavies and less effective against medium tanks.
  • #29
    4 years ago
    edibleshrapneledibleshr… Posts: 251
    US anti-infantry is powerful enough that generally I don't have to build any other armor other than jacksons. My basic composition in 1v1 consists of 2 rifle squads, 1 pathfinder, 2 Para's, 1 AT gun and 2 jacksons. I'll have an AA track if I can afford it. You can ALWAYS get 2 jacksons out long before he can get 15CP unless he's throwing units away. At which point you should have total map control.

    But you see, that's exactly what it was. I was destroying his units, and through this he gained enough CP to make a mad comeback. What irritates me is the Tiger Ace doesn't cost fuel.
  • #30
    4 years ago
    SturmgewehrSturmgewe… Posts: 211


    But you see, that's exactly what it was. I was destroying his units, and through this he gained enough CP to make a mad comeback. What irritates me is the Tiger Ace doesn't cost fuel.

    I understand that. I try to use the map advantage you should have to randomly place mines or to just gain overall vision. It's all about vision. You have to know where it's coming from and plan your ambush. If I have the manpower to spare i'll place pathfinders along possible attack routes and set them to hold fire. It doesn't matter if they do any damage or not. It's about knowing where the enemy is coming from to position your forces accordingly.
  • #31
    4 years ago
    LooneyLooney Posts: 77
    US anti-infantry is powerful enough that generally I don't have to build any other armor other than jacksons. My basic composition in 1v1 consists of 2 rifle squads, 1 pathfinder, 2 Para's, 1 AT gun and 2 jacksons. I'll have an AA track if I can afford it. You can ALWAYS get 2 jacksons out long before he can get 15CP unless he's throwing units away. At which point you should have total map control.


    So you're telling me you have 2 rifles and 1 RE in early game till you get 1 cp for the pathfinders? That's incredible, I don't think it works vs good players though, 4-5 t1 infantry is the meta, you'll get pushed off the map in no time if you only start out with 2 rifles. You can always go 2 jacksons, but it's suicide, way to much AT and you sacrifice a sherman which you need in late game.
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