Honestly, why is the Tiger ace still push to win?

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Comments

  • #32
    4 years ago
    SturmgewehrSturmgewe… Posts: 211
    Looney wrote: »


    So you're telling me you have 2 rifles and 1 RE in early game till you get 1 cp for the pathfinders? That's incredible, I don't think it works vs good players though, 4-5 t1 infantry is the meta, you'll get pushed off the map in no time if you only start out with 2 rifles. You can always go 2 jacksons, but it's suicide, way to much AT and you sacrifice a sherman which you need in late game.
    You can get those pathfinders by building a fuel or ammo cache. Rifleman also beat grens in most situations so those initial engagements should be won anyway. Against OKW I have a different build.
  • #33
    4 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058
    I lost su-85 in 1v1 vs TA. TA lost 80% of health and i lost a battle. Does not looks like "Push to win" to me.
  • #34
    4 years ago
    White ]-[aloWhite ]-[… Posts: 278
    Looney wrote: »
    So you're telling me you have 2 rifles and 1 RE in early game till you get 1 cp for the pathfinders? That's incredible, I don't think it works vs good players though, 4-5 t1 infantry is the meta, you'll get pushed off the map in no time if you only start out with 2 rifles. You can always go 2 jacksons, but it's suicide, way to much AT and you sacrifice a sherman which you need in late game.
    It's totally possible to go 2 rifles into LT to rush out a m20 and generally have enough mp for another squad before that. So if he could do it.
  • #35
    4 years ago
    BernhardtBernhardt Posts: 1,660
    Yes, and even more freedom if it's 3v3 or 4v4. Double pathfinder rush is... nasty.
  • #36
    4 years ago
    LooneyLooney Posts: 77
    Yes rifles win vs grens, but 2 rifles lose vs 3 grens, which the opponent has when you're still building a cache for that one CP. These tactics might work in 3s and 4s but they don't in 1s. Building a cache in early game without a huge map control victory is a strange choice. And believe me, you won't get good map control with only 2 rifles and an RE squad.
  • #37
    4 years ago
    BernhardtBernhardt Posts: 1,660
    Man I don´t think anyone proposed using 2 rifles and1 RE for 30 minutes and the go and buy Wolverine. Or capt > major > Sherman. Seriously stop that.

    If you seriously want to use 2 pathfinders or 2 paratroopers... hell maybe even both, building 5 rifles is probably the dumbest thing you can do.
  • #38
    4 years ago
    SturmgewehrSturmgewe… Posts: 211
    Back to the original topic. The simple truth is that the TA while tough is not push to win. It can be and has been managed quite a bit by using a 2 Jackson set up. Map control and vision are very important to this counter though and pathfinders help facilitate this. Force the TA back figure out where he's repairing it and keep killing off his infantry. The biggest issue with the TA is that it can pretty effectively squad wipe units so you have to be careful when engaging it with infantry.
  • #39
    4 years ago
    edibleshrapneledibleshr… Posts: 251
    Back to the original topic. The simple truth is that the TA while tough is not push to win. It can be and has been managed quite a bit by using a 2 Jackson set up. Map control and vision are very important to this counter though and pathfinders help facilitate this. Force the TA back figure out where he's repairing it and keep killing off his infantry. The biggest issue with the TA is that it can pretty effectively squad wipe units so you have to be careful when engaging it with infantry.
    Thank you for explaining obvious counters. Otherwise, the issues still Stand. 800 MP, no Fuel, Smoke Screen, Squad wipe 101, and a Vet 3 Tiger. Those veterancy bonus's are honestly scary. The increased sight range allows it to almost snipe from a Jacksons distant. The Economy restrictions aren't even that Harsh, because It costs no fuel people usually get a Panther or some Iv's and just call the Tiger Ace, then spam Engineers and Panzergrens. This happened yesterday, he Called it in, kept making pushes against multiple 57mm and jacksons, and when he was low he would smoke screen and repair. Very hard to counter. Did I mention Squad wipe?
  • #40
    4 years ago
    White ]-[aloWhite ]-[… Posts: 278
    Except it does cost fuel. Every second it's on the field.
  • #41
    4 years ago
    Rommel654Rommel654 Fort Eustis, VAPosts: 929 mod
    When I suspect my opponent has gone Elite Troops, I always backtech to get a Scout Car. Then I fight around a couple of it's mines. At vet the SC can see much farther than the Ace. I always focus down the minesweepers. Once the Ace hits the immobilizing mine, it's time to kill the supporting packs and all the rest that come to support the doomed Ace. I work to see if I can take advantage of the manpower and fuel penalty as long as I can. Of course it is map dependent, but minefields should be observed and covered by fire to get the combination attack effect.
  • #42
    4 years ago
    SturmgewehrSturmgewe… Posts: 211

    Thank you for explaining obvious counters. Otherwise, the issues still Stand. 800 MP, no Fuel, Smoke Screen, Squad wipe 101, and a Vet 3 Tiger. Those veterancy bonus's are honestly scary. The increased sight range allows it to almost snipe from a Jacksons distant. The Economy restrictions aren't even that Harsh, because It costs no fuel people usually get a Panther or some Iv's and just call the Tiger Ace, then spam Engineers and Panzergrens. This happened yesterday, he Called it in, kept making pushes against multiple 57mm and jacksons, and when he was low he would smoke screen and repair. Very hard to counter. Did I mention Squad wipe?

    You didn't but I did. If he techs to panthers you should have the armor to run him down already. There is always going to be that no win situation where he has perfectly preserved his forces throughout the game. The point of the obvious counters is because they are effective. If he's spamming panzergrens then you have to start playing the game to drain his resources. Everyone seems to think that you're just supposed to continue playing the game like you normally would after it's come out. Fight a gorilla war. For every minute that tank his out on the field you can drain his manpower to the point where he can't field units anymore. Is it hard? Yes, but the TA is 15 CP and costs 800 Manpower out the door to field.

    Shrapnel, if a Tiger is sneaking up on your Jacksons then you're doing it wrong. There is almost never a situation where you need more than 1 57mm AT gun. It's simply not effective enough against German Medium and heavy armor to warrant more than 1.
  • #43
    4 years ago
    Snuggle_BunnyZSnuggle_B… Posts: 169
    If by the time a tiger ace comes out you dont have at least like 2-3 jacksons and a sherman or 2 you have not had total map control the entire game as you claim then either youve been wasting resources on the wrong units, you have lost a ton of units or you're straight up lieing because you are mad that you lost and want an excuse and are trying to find a echo chamber to make you feel that its the games fault and not yours.

    Ive played against and beat multiple tiger aces its honestly probably the best balanced heavy tank call in in the game sure on the face of it it costs only manpower and no fuel but over time its draning fuel for every minute its on the field its cost increases. Compared to normal tigers and any of the soviet call ins which while they do have a fuel cost skip all teching and dont have a constant drain. If you plan to use tiger ace you do have to tech to get access to other tanks unlike standard tigers IS2 ISU152 and so on which are uncaped dont have a constant drain and while their initial impact isnt quite as large as the tiger ace its so close that the tiger ace really has to do something special to ever be worth its over any other heavy tank call in especially if the game goes on for more than 10 minutes after the tiger ace comes out at which point the fuel drain will be equal to the cost of heavy tank and its manpower cost will have gone to something equivalent to 2 heavy tanks this obviously varies on the amount of map control you have but you get the point it very quickly becomes a very costly investment and it has to achive something otherwise its way worse than any other heavy call in honestly as someone who mains USF in 1v1 im far more worried about normal tigers and or the stug E than i am of the tiger ace since there can be only 1 tiger ace but there can be games where there is 4-5 tigers if the game is close and goes on long enough.
  • #44
    4 years ago
    dsmokeydsmokey Posts: 364
    Well ace is OP in 1v1, but so are other soviet doctorines in 1v1. You can just spam conscripts then bring out 2x t85 or IS2 without any teching. ITs hard to balance ace because a lot people will say he underpreforms in team games but as you point out in 1v1 he is the ace :P.
  • #45
    4 years ago
    GlytheGlythe Posts: 1,125
    Tiger Ace has some pretty severe penalties for using it. While it can seem pretty strong you should try using the doctrine so you can see how to push the enemy into using it at the wrong time. If he activates the ace with low MP or low fuel he's going to be crippled until it dies.
    Rommel654 wrote: »
    When I suspect my opponent has gone Elite Troops, I always backtech to get a Scout Car. Then I fight around a couple of it's mines. At vet the SC can see much farther than the Ace.

    I'm guessing you don't have 3x 10% vision bulletins for your Tiger Ace.
  • #46
    4 years ago
    Rommel654Rommel654 Fort Eustis, VAPosts: 929 mod
    I do, and I believe it increases its vision to more than 50. But it may be a give away to use all 3 bulletins. The Ace is fun, but I rarely use Elite Troops because like you indicate, a close game can turn into a sucky game if you pull a the trump card at the wrong time......or in some games, at all.
  • #47
    5 months ago
    StoumanStouman Posts: 1

    I'll tell you a secret in one word; mines.
    Mines are quite possibly one of the most cost effective and under used basic abilities in the game. Good use of mines separates 'casual players' who may be skilled, may even out score the enemy they lose to, versus the thorough veteran 'skilled players' who have played mostly 1v1 and 2v2 (the only really well balanced multiplayer game modes IMO) ladder matches, read guides, watched high-ranked replays, and learned all the best tips and tricks.
    You don't even have to put your mines in a special magic spot or 3 every time... as long as they're somewhere that there is either a choke point, or an obvious auto-navigation-path (a nice smooth road or other passage that the units will choose to use unless carefully micro'ed around it). Most players can not afford to worry about every stretch of road and every choke point "just in case it is mined", so it is a simple matter to have a scout watch out for your mine layers, to prevent the opponent from seeing you place them, or using a feint with other units elsewhere to draw their attention away from the mine layers, and then when they rush that armored car out it hits a mine and either dies or is crippled while you laugh and win the game right then and there.
    You're welcome, and sorry for the necro... I couldn't resist.

    FYI I played Axis 1v1 and 2v2 back in the day and was top 500 in the ladder, with thousands of games played and a 2:1 win/loss ratio if not better, so i'm not just talking out of my ear here. My British was also pretty decent, top 800, and I could play Ami if i had to, though I preferred to specialize a bit, and admit I was not "pro" enough to go totally random, but such is life.

  • #48
    5 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    Jesus tapdancing Christ - it's a 3 year old thread!

  • #49
    5 months ago
    Rommel654Rommel654 Fort Eustis, VAPosts: 929 mod

    Pretty old thread with too many updates between to be relevant. Please start a new thread if you need.

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