[Soviet][All Gamemodes] 45mm AT gun is useless

#1
3 years ago
Problem Thing:

The 45mm Gun is Useless in EVERY situation. and is Outclassed by the Zis Field Gun

Lets go over the facts shall we?
  1. I has a penetration of 100 Close range, making it useless against anything that is not a Kubelwagon, its even more useless than the 57mm USF gun, atleast that can be made 10% more useful with the Completely-not-micro-intensive AP rounds.
  2. It deals 80 DAMAGE, it deals 1/2 the damage of normal AT guns, And dont give me that "Muh Fire Rate" nonsense because it will be completely redundant when 90% of weak shots bounces off anything bigger than a luchs
  3. [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]It is outclassed by the ZIS field gun in terms of damage and scaling, heck. Id take the Gold Medal in Dancing Guards with PTRS over this monstrosity because it has the same penetration, but its more mobile and Guards are actually better against infantry than weapon crews.[/FONT]
  4. [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Its Doctrinal. and the much better Zis Field gun is Stock in the Soviet armoury[/FONT]
Solution Thing:

Remove it, there is no reason to use or even think about not using this thing, best to replace this unit in all 2 doctrines its in with something potentially better, like SVTs of Cons, Commissars, or something useful.

Why not just buff the numbers?

Because unless you make this superior to the ZIS, there is not wya people would choose this over ZIS or any other AT gun.

Oh, and here are the Commanders that have this unit in case you don't know.
  • Urban Defense Tactics
  • Defense Tactics

Comments

  • #2
    3 years ago
    I agreed with you up until I got to "Remove it." I do not agree with removing it, it would be preferable to make it more viable instead.
  • #3
    3 years ago
    i used to use in 1v1 vs OKW as it opened up some really good t1 play (defense tactics) as by the time you need something heavier you can have a tank
    but that was back when the 120mm was a hard hitter..
  • #4
    3 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    Maybe adding HE rounds making it the only Anti-Infantry suport weapon cannon on the game
  • #5
    3 years ago
    it had canister rounds (according to wikipedia) but that would be an RNG fest that would both be OP and UP
    it should maybe be a semi rakketten type gun-
    speedy, camo, maybe retreat (idk)

    wouldnt mind bonus damage to ass shots either...
  • #6
    3 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    Why will you ever make it more durable if it at the end doesnt kills anything, only enginners and halftrucks and thats because they compensate his power with utility... Wait a second, why dont add that skills that CoH1 AT halftruck had? Snipe infantry in exchange of RoF and destroy the tracks and enginne
  • #7
    3 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,057
    That gun is so useless that it makes this thread useless too!
    Fix of this problem by Leik logic - Make Zis doctrinal and 45mm stock unit. 10/10 Idea of the year!

    Btw i like idea of removal, and take t-34-76 with you.
  • #8
    3 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    Pastulio wrote: »
    That gun is so useless that it makes this thread useless too! Fix of this problem by Leik logic - Make Zis doctrinal and 45mm stock unit. 10/10 Idea of the year! Btw i like idea of removal, and take t-34-76 with you.
    No, no touch mah T34/76, they are funny and swarmy
  • #9
    3 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    Pastulio wrote: »
    That gun is so useless that it makes this thread useless too!
    Fix of this problem by Leik logic - Make Zis doctrinal and 45mm stock unit. 10/10 Idea of the year!

    Btw i like idea of removal, and take t-34-76 with you.
    Atleast the T34/76 has a chance at redemption

    the 45mm is the most useless unit in this game, Every unit is either better than it outright or scales infinitely more better mid-late game.
    pablonano wrote: »
    Why will you ever make it more durable if it at the end doesnt kills anything, only enginners and halftrucks and thats because they compensate his power with utility... Wait a second, why dont add that skills that CoH1 AT halftruck had? Snipe infantry in exchange of RoF and destroy the tracks and enginne
    You have sniper, ZIS barrage, and penals for better AI than 45mm
    I agreed with you up until I got to "Remove it." I do not agree with removing it, it would be preferable to make it more viable instead.
    Unless you make it more enticing to get than Guards and ZIS, then its impossible to make this good
    i used to use in 1v1 vs OKW as it opened up some really good t1 play (defense tactics) as by the time you need something heavier you can have a tank
    but that was back when the 120mm was a hard hitter..
    but you know what else would have worked well too

    Guards

    And they are still useful past 10 minutes

    And you know what else

    Conscript AT nades also works better than the 45mm

    and AT partisans now
  • #10
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    Your analysis is flawed. The units works well with both commander that it is available to.

    It allows urban defense tactics who probably spent their fuel on FHQ to counter light vehicles like the FHT and it allows defense tactics commander to have access to HMG, mortars and ATGS without building a T2.

    The unit cost 200 manpower making it cheaper than conscripts. The DPS of the unit is around only 10-15% less of zis yet it has less scatter making better at hitting fast moving targets. The unit can be used in numbers to counter fast moving vehicles trying to circle strafe one's ATG and it can penetrate reliably anything bellow a PZ4.

    The only thing the unit might need is bit better mobility.
  • #11
    3 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    Vipper wrote: »
    Your analysis is flawed. The units works well with both commander that it is available to.

    It allows urban defense tactics who probably spent their fuel on FHQ to counter light vehicles like the FHT and it allows defense tactics commander to have access to HMG, mortars and ATGS without building a T2.

    The unit cost 200 manpower making it cheaper than conscripts. The DPS of the unit is around only 10-15% less of zis yet it has less scatter making better at hitting fast moving targets. The unit can be used in number to counter fast moving vehicles trying to circle strafe one's ATG and it can penetrate reliably anything bellow a PZ4.

    The only thing the unit might need is bit better mobility.
    I mean, they should at the very lest increase pen by 10 and damage by 20.

  • #12
    3 years ago
    y03y03 Posts: 1,075
    This thing is quite pointless.....either give it the ability to go into buildings or give it stupid high fire rate so that you dont have to sit at a FHQ praying that the AT gun somehow hits infantry(or tanks) with its high fire rate. Or give it accuracy buffs so that it actually can HIT something or turning buffs.
  • #13
    3 years ago
    The very idea of making the 45-mm (the most basic, battalion-level) AT gun a doctrinal one is extremely flawed. Adding it to the T2 with reasonable (270 MP, no more) price would create a niche for it (light armor counter). Yes, there would be 2 of them in the T2 - one cheaper and weaker, another slightly stronger and more expensive. Or - as I did in my mod - ZIS-3 is moved to T3 (T2-1 in my mod, the Artillery Command) along with SU-76, SU-85, both M5s (normal and AA ones - these two are present in both T2-1 and T2-2, respectively T3 and T4 in the original game) and Katyusha.

    UPD: nearly forgot, what else I did to them (both Soviet AT guns) in my mod - their sight radius is 50, i.e. they see farther, than most vehicles, and nearly always shoot first. Also - it's not worth to attack any of them with infantry from the front - both have the "Canister shot" as a self-defense ability. Thus - flanking and one's more flanking :-))
  • #14
    3 years ago
    Yeah this unit sucks and really needs a buff.
  • #15
    3 years ago
    I think the unit just needs a small buff and an option like retreat and/or sprint might make it a viable option to countering light vehicles.
  • #16
    3 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951
    I like the idea of making it an anti-infantry cannon. Alternatively, giving it an innate chance to stun medium/heavy vehicles would make it a decent support gun
  • #17
    3 years ago
    _Aqua_ wrote: »
    I like the idea of making it an anti-infantry cannon. Alternatively, giving it an innate chance to stun medium/heavy vehicles would make it a decent support gun

    Stun? Would look unrealistically (45 mm is not that serious caliber). Causing the lose_treads_or_wheels critical hit on deflection with certain (rather high) probability - that would be more interesting.
  • #18
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,852
    It is currently completely useless, I think making it more like the raketenwerfer (make it garrisonable and stealthed) would help a lot, as it would then fit well with the urban defense theme, ansd help it get rear armor shots.
  • #19
    3 years ago
    y03y03 Posts: 1,075
    MCMartel wrote: »
    It is currently completely useless, I think making it more like the raketenwerfer (make it garrisonable and stealthed) would help a lot, as it would then fit well with the urban defense theme, ansd help it get rear armor shots.
    Maybe just the garrison part. The stealth part may make some people complain about copy cat raktenwerfer(although unless it gets some awesome first strike ability, it won't be doing very much). Or make it garrisonable and have the power of the t70 main cannon which would be very decent at killing infantry. Make thise blobs think twice before rushing into a Dshk supported by AT.
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