Question...(mines, all game modes)

#1
4 years ago
eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
edited May 2016 in Balance Feedback

So it's been universally accepted that (everyone) doesnt like it when a mine wipes a squad. Therefore the solution was to "fix it" by not letting it wipe squads as much in the up coming patch....Alright, makes sense.

QUESTION, why isn't this applied to the demo charge? which aways wipes squads; several if they are near.

So what's the philosophy here?
The demo charge is just a very powerful remote controlled mine. Which means it has more flexibility and utility than an average mine. From a non-game point of view, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Regular mine = You're not okay with losing a squad to a regular mine.
Demo charge = You're okay with losing several squads to one bigger mine. :lol:

....Okay.

It's these types of matters that make me question the communities standards. This isn't so much a game related post as it is more of a, "What are you guys thinking?"

It's like, we're ignoring the fact that it does what we hate...because it gives a really big boom, and provides ultra violence?

Edit update: I forgot to put in a suggestion, (cant just post to post)
Well, how about delegating these high powered super mines to, i dunno....only be allowed to use on structures? Or tamper with it's stealth settings somehow other than a mine detector. You can't have a mine detector on every unit across the entire map.

Comments

  • #2
    4 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    @eonfigure said:

    Demo charge = You're okay with losing several squads to one bigger mine. :lol:

    Stop blobbing.

  • #3
    4 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468

    Aqua said:

    @eonfigure said:

    Demo charge = You're okay with losing several squads to one bigger mine. :lol:

    Stop blobbing.

    No one is talking about blobbing, I'm talking about it's potential. That's just a plus, It'll grantee a wipe on any one squad.

  • #4
    4 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited May 2016

    I don't think the current situation with mines is terrible actually. I like the strength of mines and the cat&mouse play with sweepers and trying to not manouver over spots that you could expect mines on. However mines will guarantee a squad wipe on units exiting a building which is a bit cheese. It is also kinda unfair that Ost and Brits have a high chance of getting their squad wiped by the mines since they have 4 man squads and because of their positioning. This is also bad because it is generally a very inconsistent event, they can also be lucky and lose only 1 model to such a mine.

    So since mines are only 30 muni and to improve consistency they are nerfed slightly. While demos on the other hand are a 3x as big investment which warrants their higher performance. Then they are also more intensive on your micro whereas mines are place and forget. Further when you get the micro right they are very consistent in wiping squads, sure sometimes only half a squad is placed in its radius but it is the owners choice to trigger the demo or wait for a better opportunity. Losing multiple squads to a demo is usually more of result from blobbing. Demos are fine.

  • #5
    4 years ago
    BigBearBigBear Posts: 94

    I feel like mines are in a good place right now since they take away time that could be spent pushing the enemy or taking points. Plus building elaborate traps is fun :)

  • #6
    4 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Demo traps are much more expensive than mines and require a massively greater amount of attention, compared to a mine that just goes off regardless of whether you're even looking at it.

  • #7
    4 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824

    90mu>>>30mu. that would be my guess anyways.. that and the need to manually detonate...also the strange bug(?) where to demo sometimes just explodes when planted killing the damn engie and taking your muni to hell with it...

    as for mines as in the preview, i think its a stupid change- GP mines have a counter that costs the exact same as 1 mine, that and healing is not equally accessible
    i frequently plant mines the instant i have the muni, meaning a con squad walking over an okw mine and say hitting 4 models now is effectively out of play until they invest more than a squad's worth of mp into medics... which are ONLY accessible in my base sector.

    the brits can heal themselves on the spot

    the usf can run over to their ambo

    the wehr have to build a bunker or bleed muni into medpacks (vet 1) but CAN heal on the field (costly but possible)

    the okw have it the best, med truck (if t1 and medics bought) on field, sturm med pack and everyone else (almost) can heal themselves for free at vet3

    wipes are brutal, but more a problem because of relics stupid attachment to their cluster f*ck mechanic, but NOT killing units will hurt more for non wipes, as that unit is now taking up pop and is out until you invest in healing instead of replacing losses and getting them back on the field

    also i think mining doorways is fair game, if you want to pop a high dps unit out behind enemy lines and they prepared for it, that sucks but they were ready... the only issue is that all factions don't have equal access to door blocking mines

    TL:DR clean kills dont hurt as much as having badly wounded, the mine change is taking an extremely preventable casualty and changing into something that will slow down the pace of the game

  • #8
    4 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468

    All im saying is, that demo guarantees a wipe on axis squads because of their small squad sizes.

    is 90 muni really all a squad is worth to us? (especially a late game vetted one with munitions dropped for weapons too)

    There are more expensive arty strikes that can't even wipe squads.

  • #9
    4 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    Well 240 (Or was it 180?) Muni is apparently justified in annihilating 600 MP arty pieces sooo... yes?

  • #10
    4 years ago
    whitesky00whitesky00 Posts: 409

    160 for stuka dive bomb

  • #11
    4 years ago
    lordpeter3lordpeter3 Posts: 347

    @eonfigure said:

    All im saying is, that demo guarantees a wipe on axis squads because of their small squad sizes.

    is 90 muni really all a squad is worth to us? (especially a late game vetted one with munitions dropped for weapons too)

    There are more expensive arty strikes that can't even wipe squads.

    So in the past demos and mines were whiping squads from time to time, noone was complaining.
    Now mines get nerved and we start complaining about the 3 times more expensive demo whiping squads??

    Next thing you know it we start saying how OP meatchoppers are!

  • #12
    4 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited May 2016

    @lordpeter3 said:

    @eonfigure said:

    All im saying is, that demo guarantees a wipe on axis squads because of their small squad sizes.

    is 90 muni really all a squad is worth to us? (especially a late game vetted one with munitions dropped for weapons too)

    There are more expensive arty strikes that can't even wipe squads.

    So in the past demos and mines were whiping squads from time to time, noone was complaining.
    Now mines get nerved and we start complaining about the 3 times more expensive demo whiping squads??

    Next thing you know it we start saying how OP meatchoppers are!

    No, i was legitimately asking if that is what a squad is worth.

    90 MUNI for about~ 250 MP

    I guess everyone sees it that way, if it was up to me a squads life would be worth at least 130 to 140 munis.

    (honestly no idea what youre talking about with meatchoppers o.o)

  • #13
    4 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    You know for 10 mu more you can get a demo on wheels right? As in the enemy doesnt have to go to you...
  • #14
    4 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    You know for 10 mu more you can get a demo on wheels right? As in the enemy doesnt have to go to you...

    thats doctrinal, lets not get into that. but i do see your point....but also in its defensive...its not cloaked when its driving at you lol

  • #15
    4 years ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 848
    edited June 2016

    Demo charge is easy to fix. Give it to all factions and bam, balance.

  • #16
    4 years ago

    If they didn't wipe a squad they would be a really awful investment.

  • #17
    4 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Demo charges are expensive and require a lot of micro to get right, I think they're perfectly fine.

  • #18
    4 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    It's not that much micro. Reflex detonating one you've left on a resource point is easy. But, according to Relics math where 240 muni is enough to warrant killing 600 MP, 90 muni (without the guarantee you get from recon + bombing strike, the moving targets and the ability to be swept) is about right for wiping out squads.

  • #19
    4 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    Im tellin ya, demo charges are the cure to blobbing...
  • #20
    4 years ago
    lordpeter3lordpeter3 Posts: 347

    @eonfigure said:

    @lordpeter3 said:

    @eonfigure said:

    All im saying is, that demo guarantees a wipe on axis squads because of their small squad sizes.

    is 90 muni really all a squad is worth to us? (especially a late game vetted one with munitions dropped for weapons too)

    There are more expensive arty strikes that can't even wipe squads.

    So in the past demos and mines were whiping squads from time to time, noone was complaining.
    Now mines get nerved and we start complaining about the 3 times more expensive demo whiping squads??

    Next thing you know it we start saying how OP meatchoppers are!

    No, i was legitimately asking if that is what a squad is worth.

    90 MUNI for about~ 250 MP

    I guess everyone sees it that way, if it was up to me a squads life would be worth at least 130 to 140 munis.

    (honestly no idea what youre talking about with meatchoppers o.o)

    Well you spend 90 muni or the possibility to whipe 250 mp. its nit certain if you do and it has no usability after that. if you instead invest in brens or BARS you might get more damage from your muni investment in the long term.

    considering that you get around 40-50 muni an hour and 250 mp an hour, i think its a fair trade if you pay 90 muni for the chance of whiping a squad, if you micro correctly.

    Oh, and the meatchopper is the quad cannon on the russian halftrack

  • #21
    4 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468

    @ARMYguy said:
    Demo charge is easy to fix. Give it to all factions and bam, balance.

    ...that would be really cool actually :lol:

  • #22
    4 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271

    Demo charge is 3 times the cost of a mine, and requires that I detonate it, The philosophy is that its not a mine.

    If we're giving other engineers the demo, let's start dishing out teller mine equivalents to the other engineers while we're at it. Rear echelons can't plant shit when it comes to explosives so its fine that the soviets are the only ones with demos stock.

  • #23
    4 years ago
    hsk9146hsk9146 Posts: 153
    Not much experience regarding demo charges but it does sound quite unfair since mines are apparently getting nerfed
  • #24
    4 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited June 2016

    @hsk9146 said:
    Not much experience regarding demo charges but it does sound quite unfair since mines are apparently getting nerfed

    makes sense

  • #25
    4 years ago
    hsk9146hsk9146 Posts: 153
    edited June 2016
    Maybe they shouldnt nerf mines that much. It does male sense to certain degree that its broken that a 30 muni thing can potentially get a wipe, but how often does it really happen? And for me it sounds almost completely broken that a mime in the entrance to a building can get a guaranteed wipe.

    I would say that the solution to this is to make mines unplantable in building entrances and exits. And if a squad gets wiped in the open field, bad luck blame the rng.
  • #26
    4 years ago
    WunderKatzeWunderKat… Posts: 731
    edited June 2016

    Maybe because the demo charge costs 90MU and requires micro?

    .

    There's a reason this game has mechanics that allow for mass inf destruction.

    .

    It's so that late game doesn't turn into some ultra tense standoff that lasts twenty years of people just blob fighting and then promptly retreating before death.

    .

    It's something that I greatly appreciate.

  • #27
    4 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited June 2016

    @WunderKatze said:
    Maybe because the demo charge costs 90MU and requires micro?

    .

    There's a reason this game has mechanics that allow for mass inf destruction.

    .

    It's so that late game doesn't turn into some ultra tense standoff that lasts twenty years of people just blob fighting and then promptly retreating before death.

    .

    It's something that I greatly appreciate.

    Axis don't have large durable blobs...especially ostheer...pios and grens are pretty easy to wipe with large explosions.

    Maybe Okw, but not ostheer.

  • #28
    4 years ago
    hsk9146hsk9146 Posts: 153
    I dont know tbh just because it requires micro doesnt mean it should get wipes... its true that it does need micro and eveything but it might be op if mines actually get nerfed. I would suggest tackling the mine problem differently or not nerfing them to be as bad as they are becoming or nerfing the demo charge in someway like decreasing its blast radius slightly
  • #29
    4 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    Demo wont be any more or less devastating now objectively. In contrast they will be but no change from the way the preform now
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