@Sille said:
mp40 are submachine guns and wins in close combat 2. they are also 200 manpower.
But you are right i was thinking about sturmpioneers 300 manpower.
Afraid not. Even up close the Riflemen will beat Pioneers handily They have better DPS up close and far better dps at range than the Pioneers. Also factor in larger numbers and there is essentially no way Pioneers can beat Riflemen unless you get two squads at which point you're using 400 manpower to defeat 280 manpower. In close combat.
@Xutryn_X7 said:
USF mortar can spot enemy infantry...GG LELIC
So True. It was auto firing deep into the fog of war close to my base where there was no line of sight. And every shell tracked down a MOVING sniper (ususally mortar shots land in the same area but no it was basically shelling my sniper wherever it went and killed it.
@captainjordy said:
What if the mortar was available at the Barracks after unlocking Lieutenant or Captain tech? Then reducing the cost of Liutenant to 35 fuel so you can get the mortar out faster and can use those units that normally come really late (yet still allowing the player to choose Captain first) and increasing the Major's cost to 135 fuel to make sure the overall tech cost stays the same. Then having the accuracy of the mortar's barrage increased to match other 80/81mm mortars then the mortar will still come out relatively early as well as other units in the USF tree so they'll have more early-mid game options. I think it'll fix the mortar problem and it'll allow units like the .50 cal and the armored car to shine since they normally come out pretty late.
Pros:
US mortar comes out later so it's not as overwhelming for Axis
Mortar is better
Lieutenant and his units will come out faster
Major cost increased so they Shermans come out at normal time
Cons:
USF will still have the problem with having to do the same start every game again
why should it be okay for Wehr to overpower other factions with awesome mortars if the USF arent allowed to do the same? if you do this you change the entire pace.
mind you, that if you do this, you will gain access to, for instance, the AAHH even earlier than before, and its not a bad unit. or in case you do this to the captain, lower his cost, you will face Howitzers earlier, and Stuats earlier. this will be a complete drag to deal with.
just nerf the mortar if it causes issues and over performs. all these odd ideas people have with nerfing riflemen, or doing this is going to seriously fuck up or mess up at least the faction as whole.
just do it the simple way, nerf the mortar so it performs what it should for a 260 unit.
and yes, it should remain a tier 0 unit because riflemen spam is dull and boring. and not only that, but you will still get out like 2-3 riflemen before reaching even the designated 35 fuel to upgrade to lieutenant as you propose. meaning if my enemy has spammed Wehr MGs i STILL need to wait for several minutes before i can start countering them.
no, just no. the USF faction finally got the mortar unit and it NEEDS to remain at tier 0. all thats left is to balance out the unit itself.
If an Ostheer spams MGs just isolate one and use 2 to 3 inf squads to flank and take it out. If he uses one mg to backup another, just ignore that part of the map. The Ostheer player spent 520 mp guarding a small area so he will have less units to deal with you elsewhere. A faction can't have everything. How would u like it if Ostheer had non-doctrinal puma in tier 2? Would allied players still be so cocky with their t70/stuarts? If u can't take out mgs with grenades and smoke it's an l2p issue. Simple as that. If the USF get a mortar, it should be the worst mortar in the game cuz later in the game, it will be destroying Ost inf like mad with vet and right now outperforms the pak howi, so its not just a weapon against mgs anymore. Plus riflemen own grens without mg support and grens must stand still to fight - easy prey for mortars. If u want a weapon that snipes Ostheer inf, get pak howi. The USF mortar should do the least damage and either less accurate or lower rate of fire. It should just be a weapon to force Ost player to reposition the mg, not kill it in a few shots.
@Leo said:
Rifleman needs some nerf with this mortar a*s hitting everything that I can use to stop the massive blob. Even P4 cant stand zooks blob. Please Relic, USF is over over over performing right now.
LOL, clearly you haven't encountered the Sherman bug have you?
@hsk9146 said:
Guys even HelpingHans has trouble with those things it's clearly OP
who the F is helpingHans?
A neckbeard who thinks is better than you, and Relic decided to plaster his ugly mug for a month at one stage.
@ImperialDane said:
That thing is broken. Higher RoF, Higher accuracy. Available right from the start and supporting the best starting infantry in the game. Get a pair of them and you've got a very strong hand.
But return it to the levels of the balance preview or remove it entirely. In it's current state it is completely unacceptable.
Not to mention, the damn thing tends to find infantry and vehicles inside the FOW (fog of war), reveal their positions and engages them.
@1ncendiary_Rounds said:
If an Ostheer spams MGs just isolate one and use 2 to 3 inf squads to flank and take it out. If he uses one mg to backup another, just ignore that part of the map. The Ostheer player spent 520 mp guarding a small area so he will have less units to deal with you elsewhere. A faction can't have everything. How would u like it if Ostheer had non-doctrinal puma in tier 2? Would allied players still be so cocky with their t70/stuarts? If u can't take out mgs with grenades and smoke it's an l2p issue. Simple as that. If the USF get a mortar, it should be the worst mortar in the game cuz later in the game, it will be destroying Ost inf like mad with vet and right now outperforms the pak howi, so its not just a weapon against mgs anymore. Plus riflemen own grens without mg support and grens must stand still to fight - easy prey for mortars. If u want a weapon that snipes Ostheer inf, get pak howi. The USF mortar should do the least damage and either less accurate or lower rate of fire. It should just be a weapon to force Ost player to reposition the mg, not kill it in a few shots.
what? what? what? the best mortar game is USF? that's lying.
1) Ostheer mortar has the same range as that of the USF.
2) The mortar Ostheer has more precision.
3) The mortar Ostheer out 240 vs 260 USF
4) Ostheer mortar has the ability Counter mortar barrage USF no.
@javabal Wehr has 4 man squads only, knock out 2 men with each mortar and the already better riflemen retain 60% of their dps and grens only 50%.
2. Have you used the usf mortar? Im pretty sure it always hits something...
3. Thats because its t0. The mg42 used to cost 240MP when it required teching.. Like the ost mortar does.
4. They do, if they have any field presence left.. Grens lose agaimst rifles unless supported by an mg42, mortar counters mg42 now rifles can counter grens. Rinse and repeat.
@whitesky00 said:
then then... what about .50 cal? it's locked behind 50 fuel T1 and costs 280 MP. shouldn't it surpass mg42 in all stats? nope...
This is getting deeper in to factional design - namely the .50 doesn't need to be as strong as the MG42 because the infantry supporting the .50 are entire leagues better than those supporting the MG42.
@whitesky00 said:
then then... what about .50 cal? it's locked behind 50 fuel T1 and costs 280 MP. shouldn't it surpass mg42 in all stats? nope...
This is getting deeper in to factional design - namely the .50 doesn't need to be as strong as the MG42 because the infantry supporting the .50 are entire leagues better than those supporting the MG42.
I'm only going off of his post. He used pricing and tiers as justification. I'm also using tiers and pricing. So if i'm wrong, so is he. Thanks.
@whitesky00 said:
then then... what about .50 cal? it's locked behind 50 fuel T1 and costs 280 MP. shouldn't it surpass mg42 in all stats? nope...
That's not what he is saying.
Go play against USF and see just how powerful the mortar is
Yes, that is what he is saying. 240 goes to 260 because T1 to T0. Now, i look at the reverse where a unit is in a more expensive T1 and a more expensive unit performing at sub par. I'm just strictly talking about mgs and his analogies. Then, if we compare maxim, it costs 20 MP more (260 now) but is still in T2. By this analogy, it should be in T0 for having the 20 MP increase.
And, if you haven't been reading the entire thread from the beginning, I already called for a nerf way back when on thread #26.
@whitesky00
its different
the timing of the mg42 and the .50 cal are miles apart
in addition iirc the .50 cal beats the mg42 in every area except suppression and thats ONLY because of burst length (.50 deals more per bullet, mg42 shoots more bullets)
the usf mortar is a clone of the wher one except it comes earlier, has better support and instead of a situational vet 1 it gets more accurate... at the cost of 20mp
the maxim is a special case, namely because relic nerfed the hell out of it... it should have only received 2/3 of the nerfs it got. and no, because of faction design a maxim in t0 would be pretty op- the 20mp increase was to reduce spam, not to justify its coming earlier.
the usf now have the best mortar (wehr one was the best but the usf one is better because of the stat buff at vet 1) backed by the best core infantry.
the problem isnt that they have a mortar it is that they have the best one.
@whitesky00 said:
I think the USF mortar is just better period. I believe it's stats at vet0 outperform every other mortar. It wasn't even a copy but an OP unit.
well. i think the Wehr mortar is better than the soviet mortar.
@Doktor_S thats something different, its doctrinal and a different price bracket. This discussion is about the core mortars all within 240-260mp (at least thats what I assumed) the 120mm is a class of its own
1) USF mortar was a clone of the Ostheer one only the preview mode the one that went live is better than the Osth one.
2) USF mortar had more range than the Ostheer one before the first hotfix was brought at the same after the hotfix.
3) USF mortar has higher rate of fire than Osth.
4) USF mortar has less scatter (more accurate)
5) at vet 1 it becomes even more accurate and that is better than the counter fire ability...
It is a superior support weapon in a faction that has superior infantry and it affect USF to Wer balance. Either the support weapon should become weaker or the mainline infantry or both...
"For whom it may concern, June 22 patch thingies:
USF 81mm mortar (also affects mortar HT) has 106 range (same as 120mm), fastest firing mortar in the game with a 1.6 sec advantage over ostheer one, and about half the scatter of any other mortar in the game plus scatter reduction veterancy at vet1 and vet2."
Cruzz
@Beardedragon said:
guess the soviet mortar is really bad then.
What game are you playing?
Soviets have the best mortar in game.
120mm rapes everything across the map and can be retreated with 1 crew left
I don't know what you're talking about. a normal mortar does a better job than the 120mm. Normal 81mm mortars fire around every 4 seconds (except for USF one). The 120 fires every 8.9 seconds (that's about 2 times longer reload time). For every 1 shot of 120 mm, you can fire 2 normal ones for a total of MORE damage (twice the damage). 120mm effectiveness at displacing mgs and entrenched positions are far weaker than a 81-82mm mortar. It's damage was nerfed from 120 to 100. It's AOE profile was nerfed at mid range over 50%. Cost was bumped from 360 to 400. Range reduced from 120 to 100. Scatter ratio increased by 50% from 0.1 to 0.15. Increase in distance scatter max from 14 to 15. Damage distance at medium increased from 3 to 3.5 and reduced from 1.5 to 1.1 near (this reduces wiping squads). Damage was further reduced from 100 to 80. This made it useless so the cost was reduced to 330 mp.
End result: the only advantage a 120mm has over other mortars is... range (oh and the 1 man retreat). It has the same damage, and worse profiles in everything else. Any questions?
@whitesky00 said:
End result: the only advantage a 120mm has over other mortars is... range (oh and the 1 man retreat). It has the same damage, and worse profiles in everything else. Any questions?
Pls do not derail the debate this about USF 81 mm mortar...
@whitesky00 said:
End result: the only advantage a 120mm has over other mortars is... range (oh and the 1 man retreat). It has the same damage, and worse profiles in everything else. Any questions?
Pls do not derail the debate this about USF 81 mm mortar...
I did not start it. I'm only replying to someone's lack of knowledge.
Lol i didnt know this was going on here. But seriously though, i think that everything being said here against the mortar is right.
Regarding the "possibility of new opening metas" argument, i would like to say that it makes no real sense since USFs strategic diversity seems to happen when either lt or cpt hits the field. You cant expect a faction to have 20 different working openings. Probably not even sc has so many working proper openings. And how are you going to call a 3RM opening spam? And how many people actually make more than 3 core inf squads in a game anyway.
Anyway, mortars and howies overlap and mortars give an unfair advantage to the usfs good early game and great RMs. And they also apparently scale in a broken manner too. And yea i agree that if mortars are staying they need to be worse than sov mortars since RMs, at least during the early game, are basically supercons without oorah. But who would want them really. Some guy suggests same mortar as soviets and it might work, but still, howie overlap. I would say that if you want yo keep it, soviet mortar clone is the most viable option.
They should fix and bring back old 60mm mortar. Leave its RoF as it is, but reduce range, AoE and scatter at little bit. USF needed early mortar to counter buildings and MGs, but they didn't need a turbo squad wiping machine.
@Exterminatus said:
They should fix and bring back old 60mm mortar. Leave its RoF as it is, but reduce range, AoE and scatter at little bit. USF needed early mortar to counter buildings and MGs, but they didn't need a turbo squad wiping machine.
the range was nerfed as far as i know to the wehrmacht ones already. unless i am mistaken.
Best solution as Miragefla suggested is to reduce the range to 55m for usf mortar. It should also wehr mortars to actually stand a chance against it then. Right now 80m is way to much for the accuracy and damage it does compare to other mortars.
Comments
Just make the mortar the same that soviets have and be done with it.
Afraid not. Even up close the Riflemen will beat Pioneers handily They have better DPS up close and far better dps at range than the Pioneers. Also factor in larger numbers and there is essentially no way Pioneers can beat Riflemen unless you get two squads at which point you're using 400 manpower to defeat 280 manpower. In close combat.
So True. It was auto firing deep into the fog of war close to my base where there was no line of sight. And every shell tracked down a MOVING sniper (ususally mortar shots land in the same area but no it was basically shelling my sniper wherever it went and killed it.
If an Ostheer spams MGs just isolate one and use 2 to 3 inf squads to flank and take it out. If he uses one mg to backup another, just ignore that part of the map. The Ostheer player spent 520 mp guarding a small area so he will have less units to deal with you elsewhere. A faction can't have everything. How would u like it if Ostheer had non-doctrinal puma in tier 2? Would allied players still be so cocky with their t70/stuarts? If u can't take out mgs with grenades and smoke it's an l2p issue. Simple as that. If the USF get a mortar, it should be the worst mortar in the game cuz later in the game, it will be destroying Ost inf like mad with vet and right now outperforms the pak howi, so its not just a weapon against mgs anymore. Plus riflemen own grens without mg support and grens must stand still to fight - easy prey for mortars. If u want a weapon that snipes Ostheer inf, get pak howi. The USF mortar should do the least damage and either less accurate or lower rate of fire. It should just be a weapon to force Ost player to reposition the mg, not kill it in a few shots.
LOL, clearly you haven't encountered the Sherman bug have you?
A neckbeard who thinks is better than you, and Relic decided to plaster his ugly mug for a month at one stage.
Not to mention, the damn thing tends to find infantry and vehicles inside the FOW (fog of war), reveal their positions and engages them.
Well said Rounds!
When I use the m1 mortar against ostheer I almost feel like a cheater
what? what? what? the best mortar game is USF? that's lying.
1) Ostheer mortar has the same range as that of the USF.
2) The mortar Ostheer has more precision.
3) The mortar Ostheer out 240 vs 260 USF
4) Ostheer mortar has the ability Counter mortar barrage USF no.
2. Have you used the usf mortar? Im pretty sure it always hits something...
3. Thats because its t0. The mg42 used to cost 240MP when it required teching.. Like the ost mortar does.
4. They do, if they have any field presence left.. Grens lose agaimst rifles unless supported by an mg42, mortar counters mg42 now rifles can counter grens. Rinse and repeat.
then then... what about .50 cal? it's locked behind 50 fuel T1 and costs 280 MP. shouldn't it surpass mg42 in all stats? nope...
This is getting deeper in to factional design - namely the .50 doesn't need to be as strong as the MG42 because the infantry supporting the .50 are entire leagues better than those supporting the MG42.
That's not what he is saying.
Go play against USF and see just how powerful the mortar is
Seems like its more inaccurate now.
I'm only going off of his post. He used pricing and tiers as justification. I'm also using tiers and pricing. So if i'm wrong, so is he. Thanks.
Yes, that is what he is saying. 240 goes to 260 because T1 to T0. Now, i look at the reverse where a unit is in a more expensive T1 and a more expensive unit performing at sub par. I'm just strictly talking about mgs and his analogies. Then, if we compare maxim, it costs 20 MP more (260 now) but is still in T2. By this analogy, it should be in T0 for having the 20 MP increase.
And, if you haven't been reading the entire thread from the beginning, I already called for a nerf way back when on thread #26.
@whitesky00
its different
the timing of the mg42 and the .50 cal are miles apart
in addition iirc the .50 cal beats the mg42 in every area except suppression and thats ONLY because of burst length (.50 deals more per bullet, mg42 shoots more bullets)
the usf mortar is a clone of the wher one except it comes earlier, has better support and instead of a situational vet 1 it gets more accurate... at the cost of 20mp
the maxim is a special case, namely because relic nerfed the hell out of it... it should have only received 2/3 of the nerfs it got. and no, because of faction design a maxim in t0 would be pretty op- the 20mp increase was to reduce spam, not to justify its coming earlier.
the usf now have the best mortar (wehr one was the best but the usf one is better because of the stat buff at vet 1) backed by the best core infantry.
the problem isnt that they have a mortar it is that they have the best one.
I think the USF mortar is just better period. I believe it's stats at vet0 outperform every other mortar. It wasn't even a copy but an OP unit.
well. i think the Wehr mortar is better than the soviet mortar.
guess the soviet mortar is really bad then.
What game are you playing?
Soviets have the best mortar in game.
120mm rapes everything across the map and can be retreated with 1 crew left
1) USF mortar was a clone of the Ostheer one only the preview mode the one that went live is better than the Osth one.
2) USF mortar had more range than the Ostheer one before the first hotfix was brought at the same after the hotfix.
3) USF mortar has higher rate of fire than Osth.
4) USF mortar has less scatter (more accurate)
5) at vet 1 it becomes even more accurate and that is better than the counter fire ability...
It is a superior support weapon in a faction that has superior infantry and it affect USF to Wer balance. Either the support weapon should become weaker or the mainline infantry or both...
"For whom it may concern, June 22 patch thingies:
USF 81mm mortar (also affects mortar HT) has 106 range (same as 120mm), fastest firing mortar in the game with a 1.6 sec advantage over ostheer one, and about half the scatter of any other mortar in the game plus scatter reduction veterancy at vet1 and vet2."
Cruzz
How about doing it the CoH1 way?
Having one of the mortars SLIGHTLY outrange the other (Wehr vs USA mortar in CoH1)
as Thedarkarmadillo said, this is about core mortars not the 120 mm mortar.
why would you even drag that doctrinal mortar in to this?
I don't know what you're talking about. a normal mortar does a better job than the 120mm. Normal 81mm mortars fire around every 4 seconds (except for USF one). The 120 fires every 8.9 seconds (that's about 2 times longer reload time). For every 1 shot of 120 mm, you can fire 2 normal ones for a total of MORE damage (twice the damage). 120mm effectiveness at displacing mgs and entrenched positions are far weaker than a 81-82mm mortar. It's damage was nerfed from 120 to 100. It's AOE profile was nerfed at mid range over 50%. Cost was bumped from 360 to 400. Range reduced from 120 to 100. Scatter ratio increased by 50% from 0.1 to 0.15. Increase in distance scatter max from 14 to 15. Damage distance at medium increased from 3 to 3.5 and reduced from 1.5 to 1.1 near (this reduces wiping squads). Damage was further reduced from 100 to 80. This made it useless so the cost was reduced to 330 mp.
End result: the only advantage a 120mm has over other mortars is... range (oh and the 1 man retreat). It has the same damage, and worse profiles in everything else. Any questions?
Pls do not derail the debate this about USF 81 mm mortar...
I did not start it. I'm only replying to someone's lack of knowledge.
Ouch. My comment stands, you are super fun at parties /s
Back on topic, since the nerf, it doesnt feel like terminator's mortar anymore... /sadface
Regarding the "possibility of new opening metas" argument, i would like to say that it makes no real sense since USFs strategic diversity seems to happen when either lt or cpt hits the field. You cant expect a faction to have 20 different working openings. Probably not even sc has so many working proper openings. And how are you going to call a 3RM opening spam? And how many people actually make more than 3 core inf squads in a game anyway.
Anyway, mortars and howies overlap and mortars give an unfair advantage to the usfs good early game and great RMs. And they also apparently scale in a broken manner too. And yea i agree that if mortars are staying they need to be worse than sov mortars since RMs, at least during the early game, are basically supercons without oorah. But who would want them really. Some guy suggests same mortar as soviets and it might work, but still, howie overlap. I would say that if you want yo keep it, soviet mortar clone is the most viable option.
They should fix and bring back old 60mm mortar. Leave its RoF as it is, but reduce range, AoE and scatter at little bit. USF needed early mortar to counter buildings and MGs, but they didn't need a turbo squad wiping machine.
the range was nerfed as far as i know to the wehrmacht ones already. unless i am mistaken.
Mortar is fine! stop whining axis lovers... there can't be no mortar in a faction. stop spamming MG at early game to counter the mortar.
Best solution as Miragefla suggested is to reduce the range to 55m for usf mortar. It should also wehr mortars to actually stand a chance against it then. Right now 80m is way to much for the accuracy and damage it does compare to other mortars.