[USF] [ALL][81mm mortar]

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  • #122
    3 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468

    The smoke grenades, time and time again i've said this is a get out of jail free card for the USF, smoke on core infantry is a no-no, especially since now that they have a mortar. Plus their overall (in your face) dps is just insane. More than the mortar needs to be adjusted.

  • #123
    3 years ago
    hsk9146hsk9146 Posts: 153

    so a reduced range justifies it's brokenness? I don't think so

  • #124
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Reduced range means its closer to the fight, meaning its more likely to get flanked. Lower range also means it can be out ranged
  • #125
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495

    its range should be equal to the wehr and soviet mortar (hopefully these are equal in range). whats in question should be accuracy, rate of fire etc.

  • #126
    3 years ago
    LeoLeo Posts: 74
    edited July 2016

    Right now USF mortar has same range as soviet/Wehr mortar but it is more accurate, has more damage and least scatter that means most wipes.

    What miragefla suggested was to keep the current stats and reduce the range to 55m to make it different from regular mortars and since USF also got smoke on core infantry, they don't need mortars with good range. It will stop the blobing because they can get easily flanked and will also give chance to Wehr mortar to outrange them. Or you can keep the current range and reduce other stats that I have mentioned above and remove smoke from rifleman.

  • #127
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495

    @Leo said:
    Right now USF mortar has same range as soviet/Wehr mortar but it is more accurate, has more damage and least scatter that means most wipes.

    What miragefla suggested was to keep the current stats and reduce the range to 55m to make it different from regular mortars and since USF also got smoke on core infantry, they don't need mortars with good range. It will stop the blobing because they can get easily flanked and will also give chance to Wehr mortar to outrange them. Or you can keep the current range and reduce other stats that I have mentioned above and remove smoke from rifleman.

    yea.. no a mortar that gets out ranged by normal regular mortars? no. just no. just reduce the damage or accuracy something.

    that the USF has the best infantry and best mortars isnt really different from Axis having the best tanks AND the hardest hittings AT weapons.

  • #128
    3 years ago
    marcjsmarcjs Posts: 69
    edited July 2016

    if axis started off with those tanks then maybe you would have a point.
    (not to mention the best light tank = Stuart best medium = Comet best Heavy = King Tiger Best Stock TD = M36(with vet Jadgpanzer) Best TD including callins = JadgTiger

    so yeah axis dont even have the best tanks

    just remove the mortar they never needed it. it makes 2 american units meanless and makes the mg42 meanless as well.

  • #129
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited July 2016

    The comet is not the best heavy tank (or is it medium?) the OKW panther is. allied tanks cant go toe to toe versus axis tanks in general, they need a form of support.

    Panzer IV versus sherman? dead sherman. versus T-34? dead T-34. i could go on. few allied tanks can out right win versus axis tanks. i am not complaining, its the way it was made since they are more expensive.

    just saying that axis do have the strongest tanks.

    besides, the Panther is a tank hunter, and it will beat a single SU-85 or jackson any day as it should. it bounces shells like it didnt even care.

  • #130
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    I would gladly pay an extra 10fuel for the ability to wipe infantry and wp shells.. Comet>panther simply because its multirole.
  • #131
    3 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289

    A rather have a more typical 60mm mortar model with reduced range, reduced AoE/damage but faster RoF and the ability to lay smoke or with Vet, WP for muni. The USF already has the integral pack howi for long range work and damage, it doesn't need a turbo mortar which roughly fits the same role but comes earlier.

  • #132
    3 years ago
    LeoLeo Posts: 74

    This is just 1v1. Now imagine 2v2 and above where USF just go mortar spam while other allies faction handle the infantry part. Win ratio for axis has never been so bad compare to allies. Please, what is taking so much time to nerf the mortars?

  • #133
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited July 2016

    @Leo said:

    This is just 1v1. Now imagine 2v2 and above where USF just go mortar spam while other allies faction handle the infantry part. Win ratio for axis has never been so bad compare to allies. Please, what is taking so much time to nerf the mortars?

    the chart you posted has no value in a 2v2 and above. Wehr and OKW stands strong in 4v4 games, that is my observation since i only play 4v4. note what i will write now only holds for 4v4, the chart might be correct about 1v1, i dont know.

    For Wehr, only really the USF mortar is causing some trouble, as wehr can place a wall of MGs and AT guns at the most important places. they have more than enough utility and tools to stall the game to mid end/early late to get out a panzer IV. the Penals do not cause a ton of trouble for MGs or MG nests because one cant always flank in a 4v4 game. as far as im aware the scout car was also never nerfed. meaning it performs insanely well for how little it cost to produce.

    and the OKW have expensive vehicles yes but they are also not average. an early luch can destroy a soviet faction who went for tier 1. and Lack of decent early game AT gun? at least you have an AT gun that can be put in a damn building. tier 1 soviets dont even have an AT gun. they have nothing. next to that you have strong early game presence, and the volk STG upgrade gives you a ton of damage. snipers also have little effect on 4v4 stages because there are so many mortars, expensives and units on the field, that it is super easy to lose one in a tiny loss of concentration. snipers are not easy to keep alive so they will be less of a problem for OKW players. the same thing goes for the scout car given that any given volk or gren squad has panzerfausts which will cripple it. everything comes in numbers in 4v4 stages, from AT guns to Jagdtigers, meaning things can die very very fast.

    Soviets, overbuffed LMGs on T-34s mean they are not afraid of panzershreks? what? if you take 2 volks squads and have a shoot out duel with 1 T-34, the T-34 most likely still loses. strong stock units? what units are you refering to? the penals? fine lets call them strong. but how is anything in tier 2 strong? the maxim received a triple nerf and has been over nerfed, the mortar has many models but is innaccurate as F and difficult to defend due to the low firing arc on the maxim, that requires constant repositioning to be effective at all. and even when that happens the flame grenade or rifle grenade still finds its way to a maxims face.

    UKF, yes they have somewhat cheap tanks for what they can do, or at least some of them. why? because they are a late game faction, its where their entire focus lies but also because they are completely manpower starved during the early game. during the early game you either have to choose between being infantry heavy or emplacement heavy. if you go infantry, you wont have anything except maybe a lone mortar or forward assembly. and if its the other way around that they go defensive, they wont have more than maybe 3-4 units running around since everything on their end is super expensive early game. that is coupled with the expensive close to mandatory 3 upgrades for their infantry. the AEC cost more than a stuart, is reliable and all, but also a unit you have to pick over the BOFOS. meaning if you dont, you have literally NO vehicle support in the mid game, so you have to rely only on an AT gun to deal with mid game vehicles as well as mines.

    we all know the PIATS wont hit anything unless a sniper critical shots the vehicle to stop it.

  • #134
    3 years ago
    WunderKatzeWunderKat… Posts: 730

    @Kurfürst said:
    A rather have a more typical 60mm mortar model with reduced range, reduced AoE/damage but faster RoF and the ability to lay smoke or with Vet, WP for muni. The USF already has the integral pack howi for long range work and damage, it doesn't need a turbo mortar which roughly fits the same role but comes earlier.

    I agree. I don't think the WP is necessary though, the Pak Howie already has that. No reason to make them compete.

    It could also be cheaper than other mortars but as we discussed have reduced stats.

  • #135
    3 years ago
    captainjordycaptainjo… Posts: 498

    Literally the US mortar comes at the exact same time as the Wehrmacht's mortar. Think about it. Pioneers build the first building and then you build mortar and all that takes just about the exact same time as if you built a Riflemen squad then the 81mm. It even takes 280 MP then 240 MP vs. building the first building plus the mortar for 100 MP then 240 MP. I guess I agree with increasing the mortar's build time if they give it identical stats to the Ostheer's mortar.

    Compare the two. The 81mm mortar has bugged auto fire so it's better there but the range bug was fixed. But then the 80mm mortar still has better abilities and has much better barrage accuracy.

    I mean, I guess you CAN get the US mortar out first since it takes 100 MP and 10 seconds to build the Wehrmacht's first building, but like if you want to buy the 81mm mortar before a Riflemen squad, be my guest.

    @Leo said:

    This is just 1v1. Now imagine 2v2 and above where USF just go mortar spam while other allies faction handle the infantry part. Win ratio for axis has never been so bad compare to allies. Please, what is taking so much time to nerf the mortars?

    Now also lemme ask here how the USF mortar affects the SU and UKF's 1v1 win ratios?

  • #136
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,039

    @captainjordy said:
    Literally the US mortar comes at the exact same time as the Wehrmacht's mortar. Think about it. Pioneers build the first building and then you build mortar and all that takes just about the exact same time as if you built a Riflemen squad then the 81mm. It even takes 280 MP then 240 MP vs. building the first building plus the mortar for 100 MP then 240 MP. I guess I agree with increasing the mortar's build time if they give it identical stats to the Ostheer's mortar.

    Okaaay. Except then you've got RE, Rifleman and Mortar compared to Ostheers pioneer, building and Mortar. Notice something missing? Anything that can defend the mortar from the Riflemen. The USF mortar is also shooting at exclusively 4 man squads in the Wehr matchup that are either low mobility (weapons teams and long range bolt action infantry) or just can't deal damage (Pioneers). Ostheer will be shooting at 5/4 man squads, who are all extremely mobile (low fire on the move penalty, semi auto rifles) and do not depend on support weapons to be effective.

    So there's a bit more going on here than raw stats.

  • #137
    3 years ago
    captainjordycaptainjo… Posts: 498

    But generally by the time they are advancing hard you have an MG42 out in a building near the mortar to defend it. The mortar isnt going to destroy the building fast enough. It'll buy enough time to get a couple grenadiers out. It's not like the US mortar is that god that it will snipe your mortar and your MG and then all your infantry before you're able to deal with it.

    I do think the mortar should cost more but that's really it. It shouldn't suck because then you couldn't use it late game, it must be available at T0.

  • #138
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,039

    You don't need to destroy the MG42 with your mortar. Just smoke it and walk up to it. Same way you beat everything that isn't Sturms and Panzergrens as USF.

  • #139
    3 years ago
    hsk9146hsk9146 Posts: 153

    Where do those statistics come from? was the person writing the hypothesi and doing the research drunk? Having an average at the bottom also makes no real sense too. And really are those things not reking fucking grenadiers? That shit at least takes a fucking model off. I played few games, but in those few games it took at least a model per shell. I don't want to sound like I'm getting to a conclusion too quickly but how can a fucking mortar do that in the first place. It makes no fucking sense at all. Also reducing range is not a good idea because if the point is for it to be more vulnerable to compensate for its brokenness, you are going to end up running towards it while the mortar drops one model per shot and you are going to run towards RMs at the same time. This makes no sense. And where did this guy get this information about strong stock army as for the sovs. everything gets out dpsed by german counterparts. And also, lol what? people get t34s? I would rather get a blob of cons and guards and have them snare for the su85s.

    I never really played the USF but by just by understanding slightly about how they work, with good early game by RMs and their smokes and good nades, and ok scaling, and with weapon upgrades, I really don't think that this is a good idea. And if we give the USF this broken AI solution, USF is going to end up spamming mortars for AI and zook blobbing in a few weeks from now. I really don't understand this, it's like sovs getting a buff on their own mortar. It just seems completely unnecessary plus RMs win Cons making this broken even as a concept. A mortar is basically an AI unit, and USFs mainline infantry has good AI to begin with.

    The purpose of the mortar in the game seems to be to support frontline infantry by dealing splash dmg, to contest garrisons and cap points, and to attack team weapons-mainly MGs. I use mortars mainly to barrage MGs because they are fucking awful. I'm a soviet player and in a map with not many flanks or in certain places where the MG42s cone covers like 80% of the flanks, all I can do is to spread my troops out and to oorah them and try to molly it or something, but they can just not focus fire and suppress all my troops and I'll have to retreat thanks to the reduced grenade range and to not get bled. Also they probably have more troops running around my suppressed ones. This makes me to need mortars. USF in the other hand have smokes and other things. This is their design. They smoke things and rush and nade them. It just makes sense. And if you want to talk about late game with more units and more cluster fucky, you can get a howie to barrage an MG. You don't need a mortar that takes 2 models from a MG squad per shell

    To be honest, I wouldn't have any problems with the mortars if it was not broken to begin with. Best solution is to either take it out, make it a soviet mortar clone, or something worse than it which I think would make the most sense since RMs are good AI and have smokes and nades and howies. But I think that if you nerf the mortar to an acceptable level, It's just going to be lackluster, and no one would want to use it. If you want the howie to be reskinned to be a mortar with retreat, well I don't see a problem with that. I wouldn't know how it would be to to move the basically howie to t0, but my assumption is that it would be broken because of USFs by default strong early game to begin with. And a question, does a howie not autofire?

  • #140
    3 years ago
    LeoLeo Posts: 74

    Too much read but I will ans what you asked in the first line. Have you ever heard of coh charts?

    To the person saying how 1v1 mortar causing problem in 1v1. People are losing whole squad to that thing. Go check stream of top players from coh2.org

  • #141
    3 years ago
    hsk9146hsk9146 Posts: 153

    I just got one by mistake, and it killed an MG squad in a few seconds after barrage command. I felt sorry for the WM player lol

  • #142
    3 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited July 2016

    puts his head down on his desk

    Why were they even given a mortar in the first place with such amazing core infantry who have smoke, they don't need it. =_= The pak and scott are more than enough. I can't phrase it any other way than that.

    "Let's give them mortars to have even more counters to mg's."

    a fanboy was at the wheel, and deep down everyone knows it too!

  • #143
    3 years ago
    whitesky00whitesky00 Posts: 407

    not really, i think you're coming at this too hard because the mortar is imbalanced. what was tested in the pre-mod was apparently fine with everyone. it allowed for more tactics to change other than having a 3 rifle opening. Now it can be 1 rifle 1 mortar or 2 rifle 1 mortar. This would burn through their MP potentially delaying the time to when they field a light vehicle or get AT. I used to get just 2 riflemen so i can wait get LT tier and then get the 340 MP m20 asap.

    and you know, smoke is only useful to a certain degree. you have to first have a unit scout to see that smoke is even needed before deploying. If you just charge with smoke, well, now you have barely any room to shoot with the new range reduction under suppression. finally, as your units are waiting to get out of suppression, the enemy can just re-position or bombard you as you're immobile.

    as people have stated, there are more ways than one to diversify their opening which i'm also very open to. give them assault engineers for flamers or give them a wc51 at startoff. it could play out in more ways than one. however, denying them everything would just make the faction boring and back to more riflemen blobs which people are already always complaining about.

  • #144
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495

    @eonfigure said:
    puts his head down on his desk

    Why were they even given a mortar in the first place with such amazing core infantry who have smoke, they don't need it. =_= The pak and scott are more than enough. I can't phrase it any other way than that.

    "Let's give them mortars to have even more counters to mg's."

    a fanboy was at the wheel, and deep down everyone knows it too!

    a Wall of MGs wont be dealt with by popping 15 munitions smoke grenades every single time. imagine how much of a munitions cost that would be.

    besides upgrading to grenades in the very opening of the game is just sad but was needed because Wehr spawns MGs from tier 0.

    it was a rifleman fest with no combined arms at all before the mortars.

    the mortars are hopefully here to stay. they are needed and always were.

  • #145
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Eon, you're completely wrong, the USF, which is supposed to have versatility, had one one early and mid game strategy, spam rifles. The mortar is 100% needed, it just needs to be more dedicated to fighting bunkers and Mg's not a total AI weapon because before it was just constant rifle spam. That said, they made it too powerful, I don't know why cause it was much weaker in the preview.

  • #146
    3 years ago
    WunderKatzeWunderKat… Posts: 730

    I still would like a 60mm motor with all around reduced stats including range or flamers for RE once the BARs/Bazzokas are unlocked.

    One of the largest issues with USF faction design is that they had almost no garrison counter play. Brits have Bren w/ flammer, Sovs have engie flammers, OST has engie flammers, OKW has incendiary nades but USF has nothing.

    In team games it was stupidly easy to just charge Sturms across the map, get in a building on the USF side and just block their entire advance. You could research grenades but infantry can jump in and out and endlessly and dodge the grenade damage.

    Then before you can get enough squads to fight them out the Volks arrived and the battle lines were drawn.

  • #147
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Exactly, just make the mortar a more dedicated mg/garrison counter, which the US sorely lacked, and would just have to overwhelm garrisons with smoke and riflemen bodies.

  • #149
    3 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited July 2016
    @Lazarus
    Agree completely.
    We can all debate endlessly on whether or not they needed the damn thing to begin with, but the fact of the matter is that they got it and it's properly not going anywhere.
    But the USF simply MUST pay some kinda toll at the end of this road, because they were already the most powerful faction in the game(in 1v1), and with the mortar they just became damn near unstoppable.

    Relics weird fetish with buffing the USF is really getting out of control. Literally all the other factions are in need of some kind of buffs in the order of OH>Soviet>UKF>OKW, but not the goddamn USF! They needed tweaks absolutely, revamps sure, but not more tools to dominate and destroy.
    But since Relic apparently insisted in giving them yet another great and powerful tool, they seriously need a HEAVY nerf somewhere else to compensate just a tiny bit.
  • #150
    3 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278

    Just played OKW against usf with mortar, there is basically nothing you can do, rifles own your volks when they are not in cover and when you use cover you get rekt by the mortar. Basically gg at 10 minutes. Even if you rush a luchs out to try and gain some AI advantage it won't work because they can get a stuart and ambu out at around the same moment while you only have the luchs and are far away from getting medics. And then stuart still counters your luchs and infantery now that you do not have volksschreks. Leigs are also countered by mortars since they do about equal damage to eachother while the mortar can retreat and get back in the field quickly and is cheaper.

    All in all usf was already the best faction pre patch imo, now it got buffs and extra options on top of being the best in 1v1 and they are just impossible to deal with. Kinda off topic, while the main issue is usf mortar, it is also that OKWs teching is made quite horrible the upgrades cost way too much and make it way to hard to have light vehicles and medics with decent timing.

  • #151
    3 years ago
    BobzenhoBobzenho Posts: 5

    @Kyle_RE said:
    The mortar was launched was some bugs that are making it over-perform. It is being looked into and will be patched this week.

    Sorry, but any news about the patch?

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