[Wehrmacht] [All] Ostwind is weak. I think that in history is good against infantry.

#1
2 years ago
NapoqeNapoqe Posts: 40
edited July 2016 in Balance Feedback

Problem

Ostwind is a tank think not cheap, which has very few utilities. I think in the game the Wehrmacht army, express is good against light vehicles and aircraft, and the OKW army said is also good against infantry. However, it is bad against infantry of the army USA and British I think, because of anti-tank weapons. And infantry that does not have anti-tank weapons, it delay a lot to kill.

Solution

As Wehrmacht have available to create Brummbar, and I think that a T below of Ostwind. Ostwind cause suppression in infantry, however, I think that slow the speed between shots. And be more accurate. So can become a retarder and debilitating of infantry. I think that so, would, make very useful again.

Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,476

    it needs more accuracy, not damage. Ostwinds are not as bad as people make them out to be when you already have other tanks out, thats just the problem, only then, unless you get 2x Ostwinds, are they worth their price.

    increasing their accuracy should make it all better, i think.

  • #3
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 181
    Ostwind is pretty underwhelming. Especially when compared to Centaur or even light tanks like Stuart or T-70. As an AI tank, it should be able to instill fear in massed.groups on Infantry, like the Centaur does. Right now, it's a joke and forces Ostheer to go T4 for Panzerwerfer to combat Rifle Blobs and their ilk.

    If the Ostwind were to be buffed. I'd like either

    A) add suppression and keep damage and accuracy as is. This way it's not the insta-wipe machine like Centaur, but still forces retreats

    B) Up the accuracy, reduce scatter, tweak ROF so that it does steady, reliable damage and doesn't instawipe models
  • #4
    2 years ago
    NapoqeNapoqe Posts: 40

    Panzer IV little more expensive currently, in the role against infantry, not so much (much infantry), is being much more efficient than the Ostwind. Moreover, it is more versatile, good against depend medium tank. I think that unique advantage of Ostwind is against aircraft, I think most of the time this will not be decisive.

  • #5
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,476

    @Noitatohtori said:
    Ostwind is pretty underwhelming. Especially when compared to Centaur or even light tanks like Stuart or T-70. As an AI tank, it should be able to instill fear in massed.groups on Infantry, like the Centaur does. Right now, it's a joke and forces Ostheer to go T4 for Panzerwerfer to combat Rifle Blobs and their ilk.

    If the Ostwind were to be buffed. I'd like either

    A) add suppression and keep damage and accuracy as is. This way it's not the insta-wipe machine like Centaur, but still forces retreats

    B) Up the accuracy, reduce scatter, tweak ROF so that it does steady, reliable damage and doesn't instawipe models

    you cant compare the Ostwind to the centaur directly because Wehrmacht also has access to the brumbar and even panzerwerfers to deal with infantry.

    the Brits do not, hence why the centaur performs better than the Ostwind. if the Ostwind got massively buffed to the point its as good as the centaur, how would that be fair to the british faction that only features one AI tank?

  • #6
    2 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468

    @Beardedragon said:

    @Noitatohtori said:
    Ostwind is pretty underwhelming. Especially when compared to Centaur or even light tanks like Stuart or T-70. As an AI tank, it should be able to instill fear in massed.groups on Infantry, like the Centaur does. Right now, it's a joke and forces Ostheer to go T4 for Panzerwerfer to combat Rifle Blobs and their ilk.

    If the Ostwind were to be buffed. I'd like either

    A) add suppression and keep damage and accuracy as is. This way it's not the insta-wipe machine like Centaur, but still forces retreats

    B) Up the accuracy, reduce scatter, tweak ROF so that it does steady, reliable damage and doesn't instawipe models

    you cant compare the Ostwind to the centaur directly because Wehrmacht also has access to the brumbar and even panzerwerfers to deal with infantry.

    the Brits do not, hence why the centaur performs better than the Ostwind. if the Ostwind got massively buffed to the point its as good as the centaur, how would that be fair to the british faction that only features one AI tank?

    Yes he can. You're comparing other factors. I could point out several other factors that each other faction does and doesn't have, (but i won't) but the fact is the units are counter-parts to each other; both have their ups and downs but still serve the same overall purpose.

    He also pointed out balancing aspects in his theoretical adjustments. as to not outperform it's current layout.

  • #7
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 181
    @eonfigure

    What he said. The Brummbär isn't a part of this discussion as it comes far too late for its purpose and still doesn't reach Centaur levels of efficiency. It's also worth noting that British arguably holding all the cards in comparison of unit to unit. Win-loss charts put Ostheer at the lowest tier.
  • #8
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,476
    edited July 2016

    @eonfigure said:

    @Beardedragon said:

    @Noitatohtori said:
    Ostwind is pretty underwhelming. Especially when compared to Centaur or even light tanks like Stuart or T-70. As an AI tank, it should be able to instill fear in massed.groups on Infantry, like the Centaur does. Right now, it's a joke and forces Ostheer to go T4 for Panzerwerfer to combat Rifle Blobs and their ilk.

    If the Ostwind were to be buffed. I'd like either

    A) add suppression and keep damage and accuracy as is. This way it's not the insta-wipe machine like Centaur, but still forces retreats

    B) Up the accuracy, reduce scatter, tweak ROF so that it does steady, reliable damage and doesn't instawipe models

    you cant compare the Ostwind to the centaur directly because Wehrmacht also has access to the brumbar and even panzerwerfers to deal with infantry.

    the Brits do not, hence why the centaur performs better than the Ostwind. if the Ostwind got massively buffed to the point its as good as the centaur, how would that be fair to the british faction that only features one AI tank?

    Yes he can. You're comparing other factors. I could point out several other factors that each other faction does and doesn't have, (but i won't) but the fact is the units are counter-parts to each other; both have their ups and downs but still serve the same overall purpose.

    He also pointed out balancing aspects in his theoretical adjustments. as to not outperform it's current layout.

    yes im comparing other factors because all factors needs to be in place in order to make proper adjustments to the balance as whole for a faction.

    for instance lets talk conscripts versus volks. 10 manpower difference, yet they dont even remotely perform the same. Volks with STGs SHREDS conscripts. in fact, any given upgraded core infantry squad, shreds Conscripts. Why? because the soviet faction has penals as AI specialists, where other factions might not necessarily. THe conscripts might perform the same as volks to begin with, but as the game progresses the conscripts start sharing their AI role (which is low) with other units, like call ins or penals.

    why does only the soviets have demo charges? why does the USF and Brits not have a panzerwerfer unit look alike by stock? its all about the balance as whole.

    The ostwind does not necessarily perform AS well as the centaur on paper when comparing damage, but that is because this unit isnt alone in its role as AI tank. the Brumbar helps and you also have panzerwerfer. not only that but your own PanzerIV and panthers have like 3 MGs killing infantry as well. the damage all adds up in the end, Wehr doesnt lack AI as whole even if one unit, the Ostwind does. when it comes to vehicles dedicated to AI you have more options, the British only really have one tank dedicated to this, namely the centaur. im not saying a comet cant attack infantry, just that its not its dedicated role.

    furthermore, if we do compare the centaur to the Ostwind directly, then the Centaur is a lot slower than the Ostwind. why is this actually a big issue? its a big issue because it can get caught easily, and get chased easily. The ostwind is hard to catch due to its speed.

    ive had plenty games where Wehr players had an Ostwind next to his Panzer IV and Panther, and their damage as whole was formidable due to the combined damage.

  • #9
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 181
    You forget that Ost vehicles are specialists that should excel in their role. That is the faction theme. Yet even British or US generalist tanks outmatch a P4 for the same cost, sometimes cheaper. In both At and Ai roles.

    Ostheer lacks anti-infantry firepower, and nobody is asking for a Centaur, because that thing is ridiculous.

    What Ostwind needs to do is be able to at least fight back against infantry blobs. Ever seen an Ostwind try to scare away a Rifle blob? They either tell it to piss right off without a single fuck given, or laugh and wreck it with Zooks + Snare.

    On the other hand, when a Centaur rolls up, it can even take down AT guns or wipe AT infantry before they can get close enough to be of use.
  • #10
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,476
    edited July 2016

    2 things i wanna say.
    1:

    are you losing big time when you play Wehr? i do not so i cant say i can understand your points.

    No rifleman "blob" will just tell an Ostwind to piss right off because no USF player worth two shits would have more than 2 riflemen with Bazookas and maybe a rear echelon with bazookas too. thats 2 maybe 3 squads worth of AT. the majority of USF AI damage does not come from combined arms like Wehr or soviets, it comes from Riflemen with AI upgraded weapons like bars. if you focus too much on Bazookas to smash tanks (which arent even nearly as good as shreks in case you were wondering) then you will lack a serious amount of AI power.

    Furthermore the bazookas as mentioned, arent as good as the Shreks. meaning once panthers start rolling out, Bazooka infantry will no longer have the same effect as they used to, which is why the USF faction has Jacksons. Bazooka blob does not work very well in late game.

    if two squads of Panzergrens ran right up to my Centuar would i just stand and hit? no. i would run because odds are i might actually lose that fight. the Centaur is pitifully slow, so they could probably reach its sides. theres literally no difference in terms of "fear" element for when allied players fight Ostwinds, and Wehr players fights Centaurs. One tank is slower but hits harder but also FACES stronger panzershreks, where the other is faster but hits weaker (or less accurate anyway) but also faces WEAKER bazookas. you give the centaur way more credit than it needs, and give the Ostwind way less credit than it deserves. Use its speed will you? you need like 3-4 AT hits to even die with an Ostwind so you have more than enough time to flank an AT gun or get out of there. The Centaur if caught in the middle of an AT guns field cant just run away, it has to defeat it if it wants to survive.

    Rifleman blob with bazookas? this doesnt even exist as a proper problem. if you dont know what an AT held army is, then look at the old replays of OKW volk shrek armies. now THAT completely negated any tank play when done properly.

    2:

    US and British generalist tanks defeat the Panzer IV? when? the cromwell and sherman generelly dont win versus a Panzer IV and they dont even have the same pricing.

    The sherman can do more AI damage than P4 because it has heat shells, without them, it wont.

    the cromwell also will not deal as much AI damage as the P4 as it lacks one MG that the P4 has. AT wise? they also do not, as far as i am aware, deal as much damage nor penetrate as much as the PanzerIV.

    Wehrmacht middle game isnt bad, as 2x 222 and a flame halftrack can cause a whole lot of trouble for anything BUT the stuart. AEC will lose to 2x 222 when used properly and the T-70 has too little hp to successfully defend it self either, again with clever or even just proper 222 usage. not that you have to do this, but it was a suggestion. Open with MGs and mortars so you have enough munitions for early halftrack flame projector upgrades.

    when exacly do Wehrmacht need more AI? in the early game their MGs, mortars, combined arms and bunkers carries them well in to the mid game, and from the mid game to late game, its about stalling so you can roll out tanks.

    i also cannot understand why you call Ostsheer vehicles specialized, of all factions, the Wehrmacht vehicles are probably the LEAST specialist vehicles in the game.

    do you know what a completely specialized tank is? a Jackson is a specialized tank. SU-85, Firefly. these have one role only, and dont even have an MG. Nor do they have a ton of hp or even armor. a generalist tank? Sherman, T-34, Cromwell, Panzer 4s. More armor (in general) and more hp.

    The Jagdtiger is a specialized tank too, though its a heavy tank destroyer. again, slow, armored, only any notable damage versus tanks, long shooting range. AI powers? none.

    but what is this? what about the Panther? is this a complete dedicated Tank destroyer through and through? no its not because if it was, it wouldnt have 3 MGs, a ton of armor, hp AND speed all in one package. Yes the Panther is more focused on being a tank destroyer yet it shares generalist traits. It has Mgs, it has a ton of armor, it has a ton of hp, and its not even slow.

    The Brumbar isnt even a specialist tank either as it can actively damage regular allied Medium tanks. again, like the Panther, it has a focus on AI rather than being anti tanking, yet it still has somewhat of a multirole.

    the ONLY specialized vehicles that the Wehrmacht has by stock is the Halftrack with flame projectors (only AI or emplacements) and the Ostwind (only AI and light vehicles due to low armor on those). For specialized doctrinals, you have the Puma call in and the Elephant tank destroyer.

    Wehr literally have no other specialized vehicles as everything is generalist tanks for them that just happen to be a little better at one thing than the other. some better at AT, others better at AI.

    Edit: your panzerwerfer is dedicated AI as well.

  • #11
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 181
    edited July 2016
    Panther MG's are neglible in the damage they deal, and I haven't ever won reliably a 1v1 vs Cromwell or Sherman with a P4. Most Wehr players don't go into T4 because Panther and Brummbär are lacklustre for their price in how they perform. Most just spam stugs, the occasional Panzerwerfer for blobs. There is a reason for it. When did you last see a Brummbär or an Ostwind? When did they actually do anything of note?

    A Centaur can easily suppress and kill double PGrens before they get within range to do it serious harm unless they manage to ambush it. Even then, you better hope it's instantly wrecked, or you can say bye to squads unless you retreat.

    Edit: also, Ostwind even has trouble wiping support teams from thw flank. It can't hit anything, so it's pure lottery if you'll actually kill that AT gun or MG before help arrives or not.
  • #12
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,476
    edited July 2016

    @Noitatohtori said:
    Panther MG's are neglible in the damage they deal, and I haven't ever won reliably a 1v1 vs Cromwell or Sherman with a P4. Most Wehr players don't go into T4 because Panther and Brummbär are lacklustre for their price in how they perform. Most just spam stugs, the occasional Panzerwerfer for blobs. There is a reason for it. When did you last see a Brummbär or an Ostwind? When did they actually do anything of note?

    A Centaur can easily suppress and kill double PGrens before they get within range to do it serious harm unless they manage to ambush it. Even then, you better hope it's instantly wrecked, or you can say bye to squads unless you retreat.

    When did i see it last? in my last few games they've been base units lol.

    people are actually still using these units, and the Wehrmacht combined arms destroyed me, he had a Panzer 4, an Ostwind and a Panther. my army died in the end.
    thats just one case. The Ostwind and Brumbar find a lot of action in the games i enter so again, i dunno what you are on about.

    A Centaur does not suppress as far as i know so they wont suppress anyone. its speed also makes it easy to ambush and flank.

    and Panthers Mgs are neglible in the damage they deal? Panthers have the highest damaging MGs of the tanks that has them if im not completely mistaken (i could be mistaken though).

    And even if their MGs were shit, then you cant call the panther specialized. it has heavy armor, is fast despite this and have high HP. What other TANK destroyer has this? not the Jagdtiger, it has high hp/armor and damage but not high speed. no other Tank destroyer has the Panthers stats because the Panther, like the Panzer 4 is a generalist tank, Panzer 4 has higher focus on AI, Panther has higher focus on AT.

    no my Panzer 4s usually dont lose to Cromwells or Shermans. i dont know how you make this happen. Sure RNG can be bad and stuff can happen, but in all generalness your Panzer 4 shouldnt lose the majority of times.

    besides the Panzer 4 is usable versus a higher spectrum of enemies than Cromwell/sherman/T-34. why? because allied tanks cant go beyond medium by stock, where as Both axis factions can get rather heavy armored vehicle by stock that Cromwell/sherman/T-34 have a difficult time penetrating.

    meaning your Panzer 4 is useful in all stages against all vehicles allies can produce by stock, where as the allied Panzer 4 equivilents are only really good against your Panzer 4s and down. not Panthers.

    Regardless if people go Tier 4 as Wehrmacht or not, thats an entirely different problem already addressed by Imperial dane in another thread. You cant make balance without regarding Wehrs tier 4 just because it has some problems. Relic wont balance the Ostwind like Tier 4 never existed for Wehr, because it does.

  • #14
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,476

    @eonfigure said:

    @Beardedragon said:

    for instance lets talk conscripts versus volks.

    Lets not.

    it was to make a comparison. and your post does not add anything to the thread.

  • #15
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,847

    Guys, the OStwind clearly underpeforms, a lot, it cannot fend off infantry, plain and simple, this means it is a bad infantry counter, it needs a buff.

  • #16
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,476

    what it needs is to hit better, which would be an accuracy buff. it doesnt need damage, or rate of fire. it damages well when it hits, and it shoots often enough.

    it just needs to be able to actually hit more often.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 783

    Easy fix. Delete ostwind from coh2. Copy coh1 ostwind stats, paste into coh2. Profit.

  • #18
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 181
    @Beardedragon

    This is exactly what I was saying from the beginning.
  • #19
    2 years ago
    ValkyrieValkyrie Posts: 2,132

    How to use Ostwind.

    Step 1. Press Stop
    Step 2. Profit

    The Ostwind is horribly bad on the move, but excellent when standing still. Putting it in hull down is absolutely monstrous.

    One thing it does suffer from however, is that it sometimes hits the ground, but this is an issue with all weapons of this kind.

  • #20
    2 years ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 2,786 mod

    Stay on topic please. Cleaned up the thread a bit

  • #21
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,847

    Valkyrie, I'd tried this and it doesn't help, it's dps and accuracy are just too low.

  • #22
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,476

    not dps.

    just accuracy. doesnt hit often enough, but damages well when it does.

  • #23
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092

    A sizeable increase in accuracy(seriously, the thing cant hit jack!) and a slight decrease to reload time, because the thing takes ages when its clip runs out.

  • #24
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798

    @Valkyrie said:
    How to use Ostwind.

    Step 1. Press Stop
    Step 2. Profit

    The Ostwind is horribly bad on the move, but excellent when standing still. Putting it in hull down is absolutely monstrous.

    One thing it does suffer from however, is that it sometimes hits the ground, but this is an issue with all weapons of this kind.

    People will get Ostwind if they're facing blobs which is mainly USF blobs but the zooks damage the Ostwind far faster than what the ostwind can do. When you stop, the infantry horde gets close to zook it. Even when stationary, its not able to force off infantry before they can at nade it after a zook shot. So stay still basically guarantees engine damage making this unit way harder to use then the centaur since the centaur can hit on the move and kite the blob. The Ostwind needs and accuracy and/or suppression buff

  • #25
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,431
    Is it possible to give it low. Nearly unnoticeable supression but astronomical aoe/incremental supression? then it can counter blobs but maintain its individuality and current performance vs lone/spread infantry
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