[OST] [ALL] Assault Grenadiers Discussion

#1
3 years ago
Sri_vakaSri_vaka India Posts: 45
edited July 2016 in Balance Feedback

Whenever I play as Soviets these days, almost 80% of opposite OST players go for Ass gren commander. That is really frustrating because a 0 cp call in group with 5 men squad and Assault rifles along with spring and bundle grenades is too OP. He could then fill the map with infantry and decap my points very aggressively. They usually go for 2 scout cars or 1 scout car+ 1 falmer HT. They then get Stug at 7 cp which is also good enough and at the end, a Tiger. This commander is too strong from the beginning and will only get strong over the time with light artillary and Tiger. I honestly think this is the only commander in the game(I mean wrt to all factions) that has all good call in's at very low CP requirements.
This commander needs some serious balancing. Make the Ass Grens 1 Cp call in. Remove Tiger from 13 cp and make it recon flight at 4cp or something else but not any other call in. I suggest this because too many call in units will remove the teching pressure from the players. Also make the sprint a vet-1 upgrade for Ass grens.

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Comments

  • #2
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    ass grens are fine and the ost dont have a KT. Learn your stuff, it will come naturally as you learn to play, which is the root of your problem it seems
  • #3
    3 years ago
    Sri_vakaSri_vaka India Posts: 45

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    ass grens are fine and the ost dont have a KT. Learn your stuff, it will come naturally as you learn to play, which is the root of your problem it seems

    Sorry for mentioning it as KT. Edited it now. As Soviets, I still think it is one of the hardest commander to counter.

  • #4
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,020

    Soviets probably have the easiest time countering AGrens - so much so that I don't even bother with them. Penals murder them. Scout cars murder them. AGrens don't have panzerfausts or any kind of anti-vehicle. They just have to sit there and eat it when your M3 car rolls up with whatever infantry you have inside it. In T2 you've got your Maxim. Just scout for it and change targets as soon as you've suppressed a unit. Let your infantry finish them off while they're crawling around. Your best bet vs Scout Cars is to rush out a M5 and upgrade it with the AA package. The massive RoF lets it perform better vs scout cars, and the suppression/high dps gives you even more options for killing AGrens mid game.

    Trust me. If Ost relies solely on the call ins from this doctrine, especially once they've hit T2, they'll do extremely poorly vs a Soviet who has teched up.

  • #5
    3 years ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 3,083 mod

    Assault Grenadiers are pretty weak. Most people generally don't bother with them. So to call them op is a bit.. Much. Most of the time they die before they get much damage done and vs the USF for example they're utterly useless despite costing the same.

    So to be honest i'd rather see the Assault Grenadiers overhauled. maybe made a 1cp or 2 more needed. But currently. They're pretty weak.

  • #6
    3 years ago
    KithKith Posts: 144

    The thing about Assault Grenadiers is that they're really, really not that good beyond that first two to three minutes of the game. The times when they shine are during aggressive action before defensive perimeters have been established, because their effective DPS range is trash - even Conscripts can tear them up very easily from good cover. They're useful for grabbing ground early on, but beyond that... they're basically worse Ostruppen.

  • #7
    3 years ago
    ofieldofield Posts: 630
    edited July 2016

    They are far from being op. If anything they should get a weapon upgrade, something like 3 STGs for 60 ammo once t1 or t2 is researched.

  • #8
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    They're fine, they're very powerful early on and don't scale well, making them perfect early game units.

  • #9
    3 years ago

    AssGrens are terrible and they cost 280mp. Osttruppen are much better call-ins at 0cp.

  • #10
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,605

    If you are using conscripts exclusively maybe.....

  • #11
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Assgrens rip apart early game infantry giving strong early game performance, which is what a cp0 unit ought to do.

  • #12
    3 years ago
    captainjordycaptainjo… Posts: 498

    Assault Grenadiers are hard to use right but when they are they are very effective. They're very effective up close and counter MGs well but if you keep your distance at all times and keep your MGs at a distance then they are easily dealt with.

    Buy the Special Rifle Command first because Scout cars and Penals are really good against them. If you use your Maxim right and protect it with cons then you'll be fine. Just watch out cause they have sprint early. Later in the game though they are easy to fight.

  • #13
    3 years ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,302 mod

    Edited threadtitle to reflect balance forum guidelines

  • #14
    3 years ago

    I think Assault Grenadiers can be really good for specific uses - like most of the units in the game, rightfully so.

    I would really like to see them start at 2 CP. I don't think it makes any sense to be able to call them in so early.

  • #15
    3 years ago
    KithKith Posts: 144

    @TheHitman009 said:
    I think Assault Grenadiers can be really good for specific uses - like most of the units in the game, rightfully so.

    I would really like to see them start at 2 CP. I don't think it makes any sense to be able to call them in so early.

    If they scale like normal Grenadiers and get access to a weapon upgrade? Sure, I could buy 2 CP.

    As they are? Fuck no.

  • #16
    3 years ago
    marcjsmarcjs Posts: 69

    weapon upgrade wouldnt work since only the Wher Lmg needs to be Stationary when firing, as a unit thats has to be mobile it wouldnt work not to mention without fausts they are rather screwed against any vech so using vs russian or british is already a bad idea.

  • #17
    3 years ago

    lol they come onto the field with a weapon upgrade...

  • #18
    3 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289

    Giving them smoke would pretty much fix them and give them an ability to perform their original role - close quarters assault. Kinda a weaker version of Shocks.

  • #19
    3 years ago
    KithKith Posts: 144

    @marcjs said:
    weapon upgrade wouldnt work since only the Wher Lmg needs to be Stationary when firing, as a unit thats has to be mobile it wouldnt work not to mention without fausts they are rather screwed against any vech so using vs russian or british is already a bad idea.

    Who said the upgrade would be an LMG? IMO they'd get the same MP44s that Panzer Grenadiers get and go from there.

    @TheHitman009 said:
    lol they come onto the field with a weapon upgrade...

    What the fuck are you talking about? Assault Grenadiers have MP40s. Y'know, the things Pioneers use?

    @Kurfürst said:
    Giving them smoke would pretty much fix them and give them an ability to perform their original role - close quarters assault. Kinda a weaker version of Shocks.

    That's the exact reason why they don't have smoke - Relic wanted to differentiate them from Shocks.

  • #20
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    I think that moving them to CP2 defeats the whole darned purpose of the unit. They're supposed to trade early-game shock favor for late game scaling, that's the whole point of the unit, it orients the Wehr strategy to early-game shock play.

  • #21
    3 years ago

    The issue is that they are sorely spammed and abused as the OP commented. I think they are just a little bit too powerful to have that early on.

  • #22
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    They're not "abused" if you invest heavily in them, and can't get complete map control, you're screwed mid-game because they don't scale and you've invested heavily in early-game only infantry. It's a gamble. They perform just like they should.

  • #23
    3 years ago

    Okay so we all agree - make them 1 CP.

  • #24
    3 years ago
    KithKith Posts: 144

    @TheHitman009 said:
    Okay so we all agree - make them 1 CP.

    Don't put words in other peoples' mouths, it makes you look foolish.

    Assault Grenadiers having ANY CP requirement would necessitate buffing them. They would be worse than Ostruppen otherwise.

  • #25
    3 years ago

    Haha so hostile, calm down it was a jest.

  • #26
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Do something to indicate it was a joke next time, it will prevent confusion.

  • #28
    3 years ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,302 mod

    I really like them on Ettelbruck and TroisPonts, apart that, I don't see any use of Assault Grenadiers after the third minute. They are great flankers though, especially against pesky USF mortars.

  • #29
    3 years ago
    KithKith Posts: 144

    @comrade_daelin said:
    Four of the five commander abilities for Mech Assault Doc are unit call ins; only one of those call-ins are found in other commanders. That's how powerful (if not overrated) this commander is.

    Just because the commander has things unique to it doesn't mean that it's good.
    Assault Grenadiers have a very small window of effectiveness and are less useful than Ostruppen in a lot of ways (cost, flexibility, defensive strength, ect). We'll say they're situational.
    Mechanized Assault Group is only really and truly worth a damn if you upgrade the Panzer Grenadiers within with Panzershrecks so you can have some nimble AT, and without the Panzer Grenadiers it's basically useless. The Halftrack that they come in is, essentially, a gutted Soviet Scout Car - it has slightly better health (wow, ten whole hitpoints) and armor, but it lacks weapons and cannot gain veterancy, so it's useless on its own. Without Panzershrecks it's just a shitty clown car, and with them it's a nasty little knife fighter that requires a lot of micro. We'll file it under situational.
    The StuG E is only useful for fighting infantry, buildings, and scout cars. Beyond that, it's garbage. Ostwinds outperform them in basically every situation, but it is technically cheaper than an Ostwind, so I'll be nice and call it situational.
    The light artillery barrage is pretty good for what it is, if a little heavy on the munition cost. It comes out pretty quickly, so it's good for busting up unawares infantry.
    The Tiger is a Tiger.

    So you've got three very situational (and in one case directly inferior) call-in units, an okay artillery ability, and a Tiger.

    That's not powerful.

    However I don't think that is a problem. Beyond the 0CP map grab, Assault Grenadiers are actually pretty bad for anything else besides re-manning stuff.
    In fact the best counter against them is to simply tech up; the more your opponent tries to rely on them, the easier your Maxims, T-70s and even M3s can shred them up. They can't pump out AT guns, panzergrenadiers or even Grenadiers if they're spending all their MP on a unit that has zero AT ability.

    Yep! Like I've been saying, Ostruppen fill those roles better, and come on more flexible commanders.

    They are particularly difficult to play against as Soviets though, USF for their part can outblob an Assault Grenadier opening, and UKF have T0 vehicle and HMG.

    Penal Squads will beat them without losing a man at long range. At close range, Penals have less of an advantage, but if they've killed at least one Assault Grenadier before they got into close range, then Penals will win the fight.

  • #30
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Well, I think they're in a decent place, you use AG's if you want to gamble an agressive opening to gain map control you can reinforce with MG-42's. It adds a whole new early-game strategy to the OST which is what doctrines do at their best, add interesting flexibility.

  • #31
    3 years ago
    SerrithSerrith Posts: 812
    Assault grenadiers need help. They lack both punch and staying power. Their inability to scale only makes things worse. Tier locked upgrades would be nice and potentially allow them to stay at 0 cp
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