[USF][Mechanized Co.] Underpowered Doctrine Overhaul

#1
2 years ago
_Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951
edited August 2016 in Balance Feedback

Problem:
So winrates have really been smoothing out lately and outside of some issues, and I think its time some of the less useful doctrines got looked at. One that really comes to mind is USF Mechanized Support.

Overall, the WC51 is okay, but a little too pricy, but can't come too early since OKW lacks early AT and can't be too cheap so it can't be spammed against them. The M3 is terrible with only 200 HP (10 more then a kubel) and a very high price (35 fuel for effectively a Soviet Scout Car that can reinforce), especially when compared to Tactical Support's M5 halftrack. The AssEngies that come in the halftrack are also pretty meh outside of Demos and mines. Finally, the Recon ability, while generally useful, seems redundant since you're supposed to be trading up your vehicles for a major anyways.

Solution:
*WC-51: Start the unit on cool-down and increase the cooldown to prevent spam/retain timing, change cost from 240/20 to 240/15.

*AssEngies: Grant them a fifth man with vet or some form of defense. Right now they're good if you need mines or demo, but are pretty lackluster as a combat unit.

*Halftrack Group: Defensive stats mirrored to M5's (HP from 200 to 320, armor from 5.4/4.2 to 28.5/20 and target size from 18 to 20), cost from 540/35 to a more manageable 490/30. Alternatively, also remove the AssEngies from the call-in and reduce the cost to 260/30 to make multiple M3s more feasible.. Either way, correctly set CPs from 2 to 3.

*Recon Run: Nice, but not needed since you'll be rushing Major anyways. MAYBE replace with Heavy Cav's Combined Arms ability so that rifles and Ass engies can really take advantage of having a supporting M3, even later in the game.

Thoughts?

EDIT: References, so we're all on the same page with stats close at hand.
https://www.coh2.org/guides/34409/usf-mechanized-company-guide
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=dodge_wc51_50cal_squad_mp
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=m3_halftrack_squad_assault_mp
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=aef_halftrack_squad_mp

EDIT 2: Test mod :D
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=741789175

WC-51 dispatch cooldown set to 60 seconds.
Combined arms is actually on the M3 because I have no idea how to get the commander ability to change. Its got a global cooldown though so it shouldn't cause any issues.
AssEngies get 23% RA at vet 1.

Tagged:

Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 2,967 mod

    Hmm. Sounds good overall. Mechanized does lack a bit beyond the first few minutes besides it's super artillery.

  • #3
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,733
    Good assessment, I sign
  • #4
    2 years ago
    omar_empomar_emp United Arab EmiratesPosts: 519

    Aqua said:
    Problem:
    So winrates have really been smoothing out lately and outside of some issues, and I think its time some of the less useful doctrines got looked at. One that really comes to mind is USF Mechanized Support.

    Overall, the WC51 is okay, but a little too pricy, but can't come too early since OKW lacks early AT and can't be too cheap so it can't be spammed against them. The M3 is terrible with only 200 HP (10 more then a kubel) and a very high price (35 fuel for effectively a Soviet Scout Car that can reinforce), especially when compared to Tactical Support's M5 halftrack. The AssEngies that come in the halftrack are also pretty meh outside of Demos and mines. Finally, the Recon ability, while generally useful, seems redundant since you're supposed to be trading up your vehicles for a major anyways.

    Solution:
    *WC-51: Start the unit on cool-down and increase the cooldown to prevent spam/retain timing, change cost from 240/20 to 240/15.

    *AssEngies: Grant them a fifth man with vet or some form of defense. Right now they're good if you need mines or demo, but are pretty lackluster as a combat unit.

    *Halftrack Group: Defensive stats mirrored to M5's (HP from 200 to 320, armor from 5.4/4.2 to 28.5/20 and target size from 18 to 20), cost from 540/35 to a more manageable 490/30. Alternatively, also remove the AssEngies from the call-in and reduce the cost to 260/30 to make multiple M3s more feasible.. Either way, correctly set CPs from 2 to 3.

    *Recon Run: Nice, but not needed since you'll be rushing Major anyways. MAYBE replace with Heavy Cav's Combined Arms ability so that rifles and Ass engies can really take advantage of having a supporting M3, even later in the game.

    Thoughts?

    EDIT: References, so we're all on the same page with stats close at hand.
    https://www.coh2.org/guides/34409/usf-mechanized-company-guide
    http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=dodge_wc51_50cal_squad_mp
    http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=m3_halftrack_squad_assault_mp
    http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=aef_halftrack_squad_mp

    well a great thing will be if the top turret will not need to move the whole M3 to shot a target and in which the M3 will be able to fire at planes with its .50 M2HB

  • #5
    2 years ago
    WunderKatzeWunderKat… Posts: 701
    edited August 2016

    Mechanized is a pub stomp commander. It actually gets more use then you'd think.

    The WC+RM is a early game wipe machine that can chase into base. It also can control the map with dismounting crew.

    Then after achieving early game dominance you just spam Stuarts and withdraw them when you see any medium tank.

    This is the only tactic that Mechanized Company supports. I honestly wish the core mechanic of Mechanized was changed. It's just a gimmick commander.

    The 155mm is appreciated as probably the strongest barrage of its type, but honestly it and the recon run are kind of random abilities for the commander to have.

    But....

    In it's current state the buffs you suggest are good.

    I think the M3 halftrack itself is what needs buffs, though the engine buff you suggest is also fine. Right now there's no incentive to keep the M3 on the field. Most players just withdraw it immediately and keep the engineers.

  • #6
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    Added a test mod and link in OP.

    Overall, not much to say. It probably wouldn't be a meta doctrine, but its fun and finally delivers on the aggressive mid-game with light vehicle and halftrack support its supposed to have.

  • #7
    2 years ago
    SitatopSitatop SwedenPosts: 26

    Excellent suggestions. Really hope relic focuses on tweaking underpowered commanders in the future.

  • #8
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    So we discussed replacing the recon run with a USF command tank alternative over in the smoke drop thread. Obviously to avoid making the call-in meta any more prominent, if this change was affected i would prefer it either be a similar ability to the Brit "designate command vehicle" therefore requiring a sherman on the field, or like a premium medium require the tech to major to access it.

    The suggestion was to up-gun the sherman to a 76mm (as the model already exisits), giving the US a tank with a similar gun profile to the panther. High pen (something along the lines of 200-190-180?") with perhaps fifty range and a medium-slow reload would be most appropriate. I'm am a little unsure about increasing armour, survivability as well currently, but others may have an idea for it.

    The other bonus of a command tank would be an aura, obviously to distinguish it from the Axis equivelants I would advocate it affecting US vehicles only and be mainly based in defensive buffs such as RA bonus or reduced target size, that and maybe an ability to increase vehicle speed/survivability in a radius to encourage agressive vehicle maneuvers.

  • #9
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,979
    Pointless changes. Even if changed, it will not break the Calliope/Pershing doctrine dominance. An admirable effort but given the scarcety of resources available not a change that should be prioritised or followed after until more pressing issues are fixed.
  • #10
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951
    edited February 2017

    @Hingie said:
    Even if changed, it will not break the Calliope/Pershing doctrine dominance.

    Its not meant to, and not everything needs to be meta, but it would be nice if the USF's alternatives to meta play weren't horribly hamstrung by units and abilities that aren't even worth their price. I do agree that there's other changes that should have priority that'll help the game as a whole, but that doesn't mean I can't hope someone will take the ten minutes to replicate the changes I made and outlined above.

    EDIT: As to Pocket Panther, I can see it working with things like WP shells and yellow-cover smoke canisters to continue the infantry support theme, though I'm still a bit hesitant on adding it since it just adds to the US power creep rather than alleviating it.

  • #11
    2 years ago
    I really like the 76mm command tank/squish panther route. It would have to be a call in tho as something like a turret replacment possibly in the middle of combat would be really immersion breaking and i dont see relic wanting to fmdo that...
    It wouldnt break the current meta, no but there are tweaks that can try and change the current meta- right off the bat the limiting m1919s is going to hurt the calliope commander, i would take it further and make the calli a munitins upgrade that reduces health slightly(560 maybe?) But allow it to retain cannon/crew function. The reasoning is two-fold, it now requires a full tech and most importantly build times/upgrades to get a calliope but also costing munitions takes away from the pool for m1919s.
    Also the lowered health will make it slightly more vulnerable to support AT that itself is squishy and reward axis risky plays but no weaker vs anything else.
  • #12
    2 years ago
    ElSlayerElSlayer Posts: 230

    IMO
    1) WC-51 timing is absolutely fine - 2 rifles into WC-51.
    Cost is kinda high, but it is mitigated by refuel & refit.

    2) AssEngies gonna be fixed through vet overhaul which I believe will be done after WBP.
    As for M3... buffs in WBP were reverted in current iteration. IDK is they will include in final version.

    3) Having recon AND offmap arty is cool (if not OP). May be changed. I like your suggestion about Combined Arms.

  • #13
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,264
    edited February 2017

    @Hingie said:
    Pointless changes. Even if changed, it will not break the Calliope/Pershing doctrine dominance. An admirable effort but given the scarcety of resources available not a change that should be prioritised or followed after until more pressing issues are fixed.

    What? How is reviving a dead commander not going to help everyone's tendency to stick to 2 of them? That logic makes no sense. And its absolutely a priority, if more doctrines are vialble for the USF, you'll see a sharp decline in the reliance on freedom blobs. If the dodge was viable, or ass. engies had a bit more beef on them, or the greyhound wasn't utterly useless, you'd see a lot more people using those instead of chain-producing riflemen for the first 10 minutes.

    Ass. engies need some help. They have great DPS but their survivability kinda sucks, even with vet. No changes to their vanilla survivability, but I agree with the 5th man at vet 2 or 3. That would help a lot to make them more worth that 280mp and 60muni. The halftrack call-in they come in could also be a tad less expensive.

    What about withdraw and refit? I've found a very narrow usefulness in this ability, and that is just sending your dodge away when it becomes too hard to keep alive. I'd rather something a lot more practically helpful be traded in for that. And yeah, either make the recon pass a loiter, or change it out for something else altogether. P47 rocket strafe?

  • #14
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited February 2017

    @Hingie The question is "are the Tactical Support and Heavy Cav commanders just well designed compared to the other choices, or just too potent a combination?" Personally I think its the first part (think about spearpoint for OST and Breakthrough for OKW), though Heavy Cav doesn't need that smoke drop and the calliope is far too good at wiping infantry, that's the only two changes they really need (since 1919 are being nerfed, and removing the smoke drop would indirectly nerf rangers as they have no smoke themselves so they can't just roam the map confidently anymore). After that it really is more the fact that the other USF commanders aren't appealing enough as alternatives, if you fix those and round them out, you may find that alongside the nerfs the USF stock units will have, hopefully it will push away the two no-brainer picks and open up some new strategies.

    @SkysTheLimit Withdraw and Refit is the main ability that defines the mechanised commander, its unique to his company and is a very powerful tool when used right. Its not really useful for teamgames, but in 1v1/2v2 it can be incredible if used right, withdrawing the WC, then the stuart/m15 means you can have a sherman on the field before anyone else has any decent counters outside a single at gun, not too mention if say the Axis mananged to rush a panther you can swap said sherman out for a jackson at very little cost. Just remember to swap the crew out for a rear echelon before withdrawing a vehicle, so by the time the sherman is on the field it can be vet 2 when the crew jump in it if you've used your light vehicles well.

  • #15
    2 years ago
    ElSlayerElSlayer Posts: 230

    I suggest to split AssEngies RA between 1st and 2nd vet as 10% and 13% to big gap in performance between vet0 and vet1.

  • #16
    2 years ago

    @Farra13 said:
    Withdraw and Refit is the main ability that defines the mechanised commander, its unique to his company and is a very powerful tool when used right. Its not really useful for teamgames, but in 1v1/2v2 it can be incredible if used right, withdrawing the WC, then the stuart/m15 means you can have a sherman on the field before anyone else has any decent counters outside a single at gun, not too mention if say the Axis mananged to rush a panther you can swap said sherman out for a jackson at very little cost. Just remember to swap the crew out for a rear echelon before withdrawing a vehicle, so by the time the sherman is on the field it can be vet 2 when the crew jump in it if you've used your light vehicles well.

    This is very true, but I guess my point is that I would like something with a less narrow use. He's kinda stacked into early and mid, and his only late-game is a barrage. Don't get me wrong, that's one of the best barrages in the game, but its kind of lackluster as far as being his entire late-game offering.

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