[Ostheer][All] - Ostheer ballance suggestion

2 years ago
akos999akos999 Posts: 1
edited August 2016 in Balance Feedback


The Allies clearly has the upper hand in the recent patch, the germans and especially the Ostheer has the lowest winrate since months, while struggle even to repel the continous assault of endless Allied blobs and light tanks. This call for a ballance patch! :)

This is my suggestion for the general ballance and mostly for the Ostheer since it needs the most love nowdays.

Before you asking who am I:
As you can see I almost exclusively play team matches, mostly with the germans. Yet with 1100+h gametime, I at least has some basic understandig for the Allies too. I was also able to get into the top 200 several times with different 3v3, 4v4 teams. Maybe I am not the best player around here but still a decent one.



The main problem with the Ostheer is actually really simple: During the continous power creep of the newer armies it was left in the mud (along with the Soviets) while with it it also got out of focus from it's original design. First it was introduced with a slow, defensive early game, followed by a strong late game as a payoff. Now it has a weak early game, an even weaker midgame and a totally mediocer lategame. As a result now the Ostheer has far the lowest winrate amongs all the armies. I suggest a revisit wich able to fix the mentioned problems while keeping its' own faction traits like small unit size, strong support weapons, defensive play, versitality, and strong lategame.

To achive the strong lategame is relativlely simple. Just have to buff all of the ostheer tanks to outperform it's Alied counterparts. Yes you have read it well dear Allied player. The Ostheer has the weekest early game, barely able to survive the earlygame and midgame. As a payoff it MUST have a stronger lategame then any of the Allies. While there are several ways to achive this, my suggestionis to achive this with a cool, german way: Panzers! With larger more tough, and also slightly more cost effective tanks then there Allied counterparts. As an Allied player you must achive decisive advantage trough the early and mid game trough your early game advantages or you will be outperformed in the late game. Thats fair and square.

Fixing the early and lategame is significantly a tougher one. The Ostheer infantry suffer from several problem. It's arguably very week/nonexistent. Grens fail there duty as a mainline infantry, unable to reliably hold the ground or capping, while the pgrens are just painfully mediocer against infantry. Both of them suffer greatly from there 4 model squads wich force them to retreat much more earlyer and still ends up inevitable wipes much more frequently then there 5 and 6 model counterparts. The one who relie on Ostheer infantry will inevitably get his mp pool drained and lose in the long term. And so the Ostheer heavily depends on its support weapons to hold off the Allied hordes until it can field a tank. It's a special type of war where the Ostheer player desperately try to hold his ground with mgs, paks, bunkers and 222s, where the grens and pgrens are just support for the so called 'support' weapons. Both the Ostheer has it's own stratieges of defense both the Allies has its 10+ ways to deal with the mgs. That's all well and good, only the sensitive ballance between the defender and the attacker went out of the spot letting the Ostheer in great trouble.

I offer a suggestion wich lets the war be slightly more mobile, prefer skill and strategy instead of noskill solutions for both side, and gives the Ostheer the well needed buff, what can be easily fine-tuninged with simple stat changes to reach the sweet spot. To summerise the suggestions: let the Ostheer dig in more deeply proveding defense from longrange and indirect fire, and maintaning or even strenghtening its vulnerability vs flanking and close combat while keeping it's curent dps and fragile glass cannon units wich are the trademarks of the faction.

Be just as susceptible for flames, granades, infiltration units and close combat in general, but with entranchments reduce the receved damage from longrange, deepenig your long range advantage and at the same time punish stupid frontal assaults even more. Let them know, at your defense line you clearly have the advantage and thay can't just walk left and right before it without consequences. Make the main way of dealing with the Ostheer defense line is clever flanking and tricky strategies, instead of just nobrain mortar spaming, and what is even worth, owerwhelming by the sheer numbers of the blob. By giving a strong and yet somewhat mobile defensive line to the Ostheer while keeping its weeker subpar units we are creating an intresting situation. The Ostheer player will have the ability to stop the enemy advance if he preaperd well for the enemy attack and with the free 'costing only time' sandbags and entranchments he can push forward the line moveing his units if he has the oportunity with an unguarded area and plenty of pioniers and other units wich are not needed at somewhere else at an ongoing enemy attack. At the same time the Allied players has the opportunity to be great threat for the Axis when he is sucsesfully able to break trough dealing great losses for the support weapons and even for the infantry, and continously harass the Axis player for his every uncaotius move when he moves out from his safe position with his subpar units, taxing great price for his immodesty. But thats not just an opportunity for him, it's a must do since if he lets the Axis player unbusy he will be cornered soon enough.

That also offer a solution for an old problem: the game started to tend to be a little biased in the area of wasted opportunities. Until now if an alied player hasn't used an opportunity he hasn't won. In the same time if a german hasn't used it he lost. The game mechanics punished much more the germans for wasted opportunities then the Allies. with these changes the Ostheer player has the ability to punish lasy Allies even more, making this situation slightly better. (That one thought about opportunities is my theory, argue in comments if you don't agree.)

Defensive changes:

-Grenadiers and Osttruppen get the ability to build sandbags.

-Grenadiers and Pioneers get the ability to build trenches (nondoctrinal).

-Pioneers get the ability to build tank traps (nondoctrinal).

-Pioneers get the ability to dig in support weapons (MG42, Pak40, Mortar)
It works very much like the Hull Down ability except it for team weapons:
-It's free, only took time to preaper.
-Can be abandoned anytime with a button just like the Hull Down ones.
-If so it is instantly destroyed.
-Fortified weapons cannot move or rotate unless thay abandon the cover. (With the exception of the mortar trivially.)
(This one also makes flanking more profitable, since it took slightly more time to react if thay got flanked.)
-Provide green cover for the crew from the front side.
-Fortified weapons and there crew get 50% damage from explosives.
-When decrewd the weapon and the entranchment remain still, can be recrewd bY anybody foe or not.

The main point of explosion damage reduction is to make mortar spam an inefficent counter (while still allowing it take out one or two critically placed mg to open the path for flanking). Also to give the chance for the crew to survive sneaky granades wich are droped from out of the blue without an actuall attack, much like when the grande drop ranges was nerfed under suppression to protect mgs from frontal attack.

(Yes that one gives the german mortar a significant advantage over amrican and sovet one, but still leave him in the dust compared to longer range units such as the brit mortar, the russian 120mm mortar or the american howitzer. Mortars shouldn't have to shoot each other anyway, mortar duels are retarded -.- )

Unit changes:

-Grenadiers get a special ability very much like the infantry section to improve its surviveability and general 'stayability' on the field.
50% damage from explosives while in yellow or green cover.

-Panzer Grenadiers
Squad size increase to 5
Cost reduction to 320
Change there base StG44s to MP40s (equivalent to the current assault grenadier ones)
Keeping the 120 munition - 2 panzershreck upgrade
Or as an excluding alternative for a 90 munition upgrade thay get there StG44s (all 5 StG44, wich dont take an equipment cost and can still be replaced by any luckily found LMG, Bazooka ect.)

The main problem with the grens is that thay try to be a mainline infantry while beeing a glass cannon unit. Thay have several abilities (all of them ranged) and an acceptable (but still not excelent) long range damage (don't forget riflemans and infantry sections beat them with double lmg) capable of doung many things (mostly supporting other units) but terrible at basic infantry things like holding the ground, serveing as a meatshild for other units or capturing territories while beeing fired at. Thus while thay definetly have there own place on the Ostheer thay cannot do there main job forcing all other otherwise 'fine' unit to try to cover for this weekness with doung things what thay not intended to do normally. Thats one of the greatest weekness of the Ostheer.

With the defense upgrade for the grenadier we allowing it to stay and do its job in the cover longer, at the same time with the panzer grenadiers we are making a mid-late game infantry what can be used as an 'infantry' cover for what the grenadier lack in close combat and surviveability. At T2 its far too late to build an entire strategy around them, yet thay can help with the mentioned lack of infantry, at that time in midgame not as a mainline unit but as a utility.

+100% damage for MP40s

Give them a little early advantage, also make it a somewhat less useless in combat. The Ostheer earlygame appreciate all kind of buff, its still far from any real infantry.

APC rounds move to Vet0
Replaced with 25% faster reload

The times when the MG42 was the best machine gun has passed since long, its still counted as good one but not the best. (That was and will be allways the DShK) The brit outrange it, has higher dps alongside with the american, and the maxim greatly benefit from its low setup time being a much more user friendly. Furthermore the Ostheer need the MG42 even more then the 3 mentioned above at combined. The Vet0 APC help to protect your units from early vehicle harass and even usefull to punish super blobs wich tends to be a habit in recent teamgames. As a counter vehicles still can easily flank and kite mgs, now thay just can't ram straight into the lines.

Cost to 180 mp

200 is just too much when u can get a much better, still cosidered to be week conscript for 240 (I also suggest a price rediction for them but that's another topic)

-Assault Grenadiers
Move to CP1
Cost to 320 mp
Frontal armour to 1.5 (like for shocks)

This unit really deserve to be somewhat better at mid/lategame. The world will not come to its end just becose the germans has one single commander with one single call-in that good at close combat. Shocks are still better.

Penetration to 130
Hp to 760

For 125 fuel it's definetly underperforming.

-FPz4 Ostwind
Cost increase to 350 mp 125 fuel (same as Pz4)
Armour to 180/90 (same as Pz4)
Hp to 760 (same as Pz4)
Double its effective dps against infantry while not moveing with accuracy and splash buff
Also add some suppression

The new brumbär is great against blobs, let make the FPz4 a T3 alternative, mostly focused on the defensive role, further making T3 is a valid alternative, over T4 rush and skipping the T3 entirely.

-Pz5 Panther
Cost to 500 mp 190 fuel
Front armour to 350
Moveing accuracy to 0.75
+50% dps to all of its mgs
+20% to accuracy for the main gun

Make it an allmost heavy tank just as it was in reality not just a more armored (and more expensive) version of the american M36 what is strugling even to hurt the enemy infantry units.

-Pz6 Tiger
Front armour to 380

Keep in line with Pz5, provide the feeling of a real heavy tank, also providing some of the well deserved lategame advantage to the Ostheer.

Commander abilitie changes:

-Trench replaced with support weapon camoflage
Digd in MG42s Pak40s and mortars have the camoflage ability

MG42 and ZiS already can do this and it's still rarely used, merely a defense against sniper harass and a little flavor to strategy.

-Defensive Fortifications replaced by Spotting Scope

Make that Defensive Doctrine worth picking! ; )

-Railway Artielly Support
Cost to 250
Reload time to 300s
Number of shells to 1
+50% to splash range
Delay before shot arives to 20s
Damage to over 9000
(90% max hp damage to BRACED brit structures, 1-hit everithing else)

Make it a hard counter for Brit sim city! There is no any real option to deal with sim city other than shooting it with heavy artielly aniway. Let the Railway Artielly Support join the club of leFH, Zeroing Artielly and walking stuka, the units and abilities what are actualy good against brit enplacements! In the current version it barly able to scratch the brit enplacements, while too slow to hit anithing else, rendering this mighty ability to one of the most useless one for 200 munition. High reload time and munition cost prevent from abuseing, only allowing to make the well needed holes in the enemy defense line for flanking and dynamic, moving battles. It also fit much more in the image of the ability, since it's say Schwerer Gustav wich was one single super heavy gun, with high reload time and unbelivable damage especially designed to take out the heaviest fortifications.

( +2 Would like to see wirbelwinds and jagdpanthers as commander callins) : )



  • #2
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,793
    Sooo im on mobile so im not going to go point by point but is seems you have no idea of what stays mean, for example your tiger change would make it more armoured than a kingtiger, or armour and sprint on a 1cp unit (there is a reason shocks are 2 cp)
    And 5 man squad (that you want cheaper) wielding 2 shreks....
    Or 100% increase to a starter unit that also can see farther than anyone else... We already had that when the weapon profiles were introduced and guess what? It was broken AS GARDEN
    Anyways if this thread somehow sticks around ill post more in depth
  • #3
    2 years ago

    I would have just given lmg grenadiers a suppression ability like the US-Paratroopers for ~10 munition at vet2 to prevent allied infantry from closing the gap on them through open terrrain and make them stay at the distance that favors the grenadiers with their lmgs and buff the half-track (suggestions for that are already made in ImperialDanes threat about HTs) to give the grenadiers an easier time holding their ground.
    @akos999 What you are suggesting makes them more like the brits then and i think all factions should feel unique. I find your idea of making the grenadiers in cover more durable against explosives great because that would make it far easier to keep them alive against allied mortars and grenades.
    Maybe the way to go for the Ostheer ist to give them more tools for suppressing the more numerous and durable allied squads. You could also consider giving the P4(maybe also Panther) his armour upgrade at vet1 and replacing the blitzkrieg ability at then vet2 with something like "Hold your ground"-ability which would give it light suppression on his mgs like the ostwind bulletin does and increase its reload speed but which also makes the tank stationary. Give the Tiger the Spearhead of the KT ability at vet2 and remove its Blitzkrieg ability as well. And finally make the Command P4's Blitzkrieg ability to effect all vehicles in is aura. That are my suggestions for now at least. It's not fixing the Ostheers weakness completely but it's at least in my opinion a better way of fixing them than just making them more similar to the brits.

  • #4
    2 years ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 3,027 mod

    Locking this thread as it doesn't follow the balance forum guidelines. Pick a unit or commander. Not an entire faction. Otherwise the discussion can quickly grow out of hand.

This discussion has been closed.

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