[UKF][ALL] Is PIAT Spam a problem?

#1
2 years ago
SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
edited September 2016 in Balance Feedback

41 Minute mark (have embedded it to start at 41 but isn't working for myself)

It made me personally sick to see that UKF infantry can, out of cover - and so out of faction design and purpose, run up and I quote "can yolo into the face of a dedicated, horribly expensive, tier 4, AI assault gun...." while being under fire from other tanks and units. To then destroy all the armour.

Is that OP? I'd say the PIAT itself is relatively balanced - but the infantry not being punished for blobbing out of cover is... (USF terminators do this too - but UKF are advertised as fighting better in cover). Thus leading to the event you just witnessed.

Solution: Make UKF suffer penalties in the vein of the buff they get in cover - but going the other way. If that makes sense. To make head on assaults without consequence not happen like that. Dane always goes on about flanking when all allied players needn't do so. It's sad state of affairs for axis balance (obviously the game could've been won much earlier but doesn't excuse this exposure of un-balance I felt compelled to yell about).

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Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    He lost the KT because he yolo'd it in ahead of his other troops. The engies really weren't under fire from anything else either, the only things there were the Panther and Ele which aren't AI units.

    Then the same thing happened with the Brum. He knew arty cover was coming down and still ran the Brum into it rather then engaging from behind Pgrens or MG cover.

  • #3
    2 years ago

    coh doesnt punish shit like that on a game level unfortunately, we saw it with this, we see it with rifles, we saw it with volks blobs, we saw it with ptrs cons and we saw it way back with pgrens

    infantry held AT shouldn't be "offensive" it should be leaned on in defence not yolo rushed through nerfed AoE attacks, firing off their payload and running safely off to the FRP to rinse and repeat.

    i would propose that that infantry held AT inflicts a movement penalty out of combat (none of them are light...) but also arms them with a sprint ability (free) that allows them to move a bit faster in bursts

    this means that AT blobs are more vulnerable to all forms of indirect as well as subject to more incoming fire from support troops, it means brainless dives that will be rewarded by a close to the front FRP are discouraged because you cant just zip in and out unless there is nothing nearby at all

    ALSO aim time for handhelds needs increased...alot...
    has anyone else ever hopped into a building to see them volley off their zooks/shreks before the glass is even broke?
    i think this compounds the issue, mostly because of pathing but the fact that if you whisper into range for a fraction of a second the target is painted and satellite guided rockets are en route is ludicrous

    /rant over

  • #4
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,985
    I think another Problem - at the very least for Wehrmacht - is that all their AI options vs blobs are weak or overpriced. Panzerwerfer is mediocre and in T4, the Ostwind performs poorly, and the Brummbär doesn't really do enough for its price. Also, T4 again.

    Axis just need reliable ways to punish blobs other than the Stuka zu Fuß
  • #5
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,605

    PIATs are to counter clumsy heavier tanks.
    The vid shows exactly how they are supposed to be used and function.

    If these were P4s or Ostwinds, he wouldn't even be able to do anything, single Luchs would murder these engies.

    Also, where was infantry?
    Unprotected anti tank armor gets killed by AT infantry, this is how it goes.
    PIATs are useless vs meds and lights, but their only job is to kill slow and static armor.

  • #6
    2 years ago
    Love Piats, so they have no Bren.
  • #7
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited September 2016
    Excellent thread, poor choice of title.

    The thread:
    +1 and absolutely. There certainly needs to be more options for controlling blobs, so infantry can't just a-move their way to victory.

    The title:
    Piats are still atrocious. I still routinely move my 250 HT with a pgren squad in, into 2-3 IS's armed with piats and force a mass-retreat. As long as you keep moving, the things are horrendously bad at hitting anything.
    More than anything, I'm glad when I see my brit opponent has bought piats, cause they represent next to no threat and it means less lmg's, which ARE a threat.
  • #8
    2 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289
    edited September 2016

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

    After all, its just a blob of ridiculusly cheap infantry that beats anything up close range, impervious to infantry, KT, Brummbar hits that literally walks over the most expensive heavy tanks in the game without loosing a model.

    If that's not enough, give them 2 armor that makes Shock Troops of the old look like a f joke.

    In those 3 minutes past 41 minute is compressed just about everything that is wrong with balance. Double PIAT/Bren blobs, Grens melting on first contact, Panther that is hapless against infantry while the similar priced Comet whacks them. Superhigh health emplacements camping on VPs. The heaviest, most expensive tank that doesn't function. Ridiculus terminator veterancies and so on.

  • #9
    2 years ago

    @Baálthazor said:

    The title:
    Piats are still atrocious. I still routinely move my 250 HT with a pgren squad in, into 2-3 IS's armed with piats and force a mass-retreat. As long as you keep moving, the things are horrendously bad at hitting anything.
    More than anything, I'm glad when I see my brit opponent has bought piats, cause they represent next to no threat and it means less lmg's, which ARE a threat.

    Thanks for your comment. I get that - but as a previous person mentioned; aren't they designed for static vehicles? And when they hit, they hit with a ridiculously high amount of power. In that case, like I mentioned originally I think they're 'technically', 'relatively' balanced - it's just the units they're attached too that are not when past vet 2 (which applies to USF too). If that was a blob of PG with shrecks would that really have worked out the same? (I don't think so, but don't pretend it to be fact).

  • #10
    2 years ago

    If that was a blob of PG with shrecks would that really have worked out the same? (I don't think so, but don't pretend it to be fact).

    If that was a blob of PG it would have cost 50+% more to buy and reinforce, more munitions to equip with double shrecks and would have less still models per troop without any cheesy option for 2 armor that makes them just shrug off 50% of all hits...

  • #11
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    Thats what called the result of a biased allied lobby against volks.
    You see bazookas and PIATs could be nerfed on the same base as schrecks were.

    Now OKW is running with 90MU panzerschrecks on noob a*s spios, while allies can give cheap AT weapons for any 5 mens squads. Giving screcks for Spios was a bad idea on the first place. 90MU for it is simply overpriced.

  • #12
    2 years ago

    @RiCE said:
    Thats what called the result of a biased allied lobby against volks.
    You see bazookas and PIATs could be nerfed on the same base as schrecks were.

    Now OKW is running with 90MU panzerschrecks on noob a*s spios, while allies can give cheap AT weapons for any 5 mens squads. Giving screcks for Spios was a bad idea on the first place. 90MU for it is simply overpriced.

    Be almost worth it if you could un-equip the shreck like you can the mine sweeper.

  • #13
    2 years ago

    Have you ever tried a Hunting Missile Schreck-Blob, Panzergrenadiers with 2 Misslie Schrecks....

  • #14
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,605
    edited September 2016

    @RiCE said:
    Thats what called the result of a biased allied lobby against volks.
    You see bazookas and PIATs could be nerfed on the same base as schrecks were.

    Now OKW is running with 90MU panzerschrecks on noob a*s spios, while allies can give cheap AT weapons for any 5 mens squads. Giving screcks for Spios was a bad idea on the first place. 90MU for it is simply overpriced.

    You really need someone to draw you a picture how mini mortar is different then heat seeking missile of all armor doom or you want to just create a storm in a glass of water here?

  • #15
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited September 2016

    @Katitof said:
    PIATs are to counter clumsy heavier tanks.
    The vid shows exactly how they are supposed to be used and function.

    If these were P4s or Ostwinds, he wouldn't even be able to do anything, single Luchs would murder these engies.

    Also, where was infantry?
    Unprotected anti tank armor gets killed by AT infantry, this is how it goes.
    PIATs are useless vs meds and lights, but their only job is to kill slow and static armor.

    Piats need tanks to stand still. Well guess what, the p4 and ostwind need to stand still to hit infantry. If you do the move, stop, shoot, move, stop, shoot microintensive stuff while the Brit player can just tell his blob to charge, your not rewarding the player with the tanks (fuel advantage.) The player with the tanks should have a less microintensive time than the piat blob. One second too late in moving a healthy tank and its destroyed by a massive volley whereas, the tank can only kill about 2 sappers when they close the distance. When Piats hit they are the best at - great damage and penetration. The Brummbar can't hit moving infantry that well so even that monster of a tank struggles and the fact that its so slow means the piats can easily hit a moving Brummbar.

  • #16
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited September 2016

    What I find more dangerous and common than a piat blob is a zook blob. And you don't even need to double upgrade zooks on riflemen. Single zook riflemen and lieutenant, double zook on capt, RE and major, and esp Ostheer 1v1 vs USF is threatened like crazy. And if you're going to give me the schreck > zook bs, I've already soundly defeated that statement as the zooks are much cheaper, better RoF and they are EVERYWHERE. The last point is especially concerning. The fact that the USF can equip them on all inf means there is hardly a unit that ost tanks can comfortably engage. As well, u can turn otherwise useless inf like RE and major into something very useful unlike pios that can only get a flamer which means closing in the distance and getting shit on before getting close. Whereas RE can max range snipe tanks without taking as much return fire. As well the fact that zook riflemen have snares makes them the only non-doc at inf with snares which is op. A single riflemen squad can cause engine damage for your p4 rendering it unusable for the time being. You need at least 2 units working in unison to get an engine crit on a full health tank. 66% to pen the front of Ost p4 means the zook is very reliable against Ost. And like I said, Ost inf do not have the upper hand against riflemen even when one man is wielding a zook. 3 M1 Garands and a bar is enough to draw even vs an lmg gren. So the blob that just pushed back your p4 can easily deal with infantry targets with ease.

    The added danger of zook proliferation is the fact that zooks and an at gun is more than enough to stall Ost tier 3. Stall for what? Well most players go for Heavy Cancer doctrine (or "just stall for pershing" doctrine.) The inability for Ostheer to punish USF for not getting mediums makes Heavy Cav cancer. Cuz zooks are much better than players give credit for. And Ost tanks have garbage AI so USF players have the balls to charge their zook horde at your tanks. If the horde was charging a Sherman, one HE shell would send the whole blob (or what remains of it) home. Can axis stall allied players with paks, raketens, and schrecks to get Tigers, or KT? No, cuz all allied mediums have great AI (yes even Cromwells considering your facing mainly 4 man squads with the exception of volks and pfusiliers. Plus mad crushing skills too.) Your schreck squads will not last very long getting shit on by shermans, and t34s. Paks and raketens have poor survivability once flanked. The AI capabilities of allied mediums will bleed out the axis before their heavies can arrive.

    BELIEVE IT OR NOT ZOOK SPAM IS THE NEW OKW VOLK SCHRECK BLOB.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited September 2016

    It is kinda ok because piats are quite limited in that they only hit slow moving vehicles. Or they otherwise add a lot of micro for the user in that they have to attack ground and predict where the vehicle goes.

    Though when you look at it from potential damage if you do get them to hit they might be a bit OP with such high deflection damage, ROF and being able to put 2 of them on 1 squad. They also feel really cheesy when taking down buildings, a piat blob can even clear OST bunkers head on.

    So based on that I would think it could be better for both sides if piats potential would be lowered and it's consistency improved. Some options to achieve this would be:

    -reduced deflection damage
    -damage against buildings reduced by damage tables
    -increased projectile speed
    -increased accuracy

    I realise this does have the downside is that it will make piat less unique and look more like the other handheld ATs but I think it would nonetheless make for more enjoyable gameplay.

  • #18
    2 years ago

    @Widerstreit said:
    Love Piats, so they have no Bren.

    The infantry sections had plenty of brens, which is why the grens were probably in the base (cuz they got owned by the infantry sections) reinforcing instead of screening for the brummbar.

  • #19
    2 years ago
    WunderKatzeWunderKat… Posts: 722
    edited September 2016

    IMO the piat is not balanced. It does almost the same damage when it deflects as it does when it penetrates. In effect it is stupidly good at destroying late game armor.

    I really think it's deflection damage needs to be lowered.

    @1ncendiary_Rounds The bazooka is not that strong. It's more expensive, it has almost no deflection damage and low penetration.

    It's really not that impressive.

  • #20
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited September 2016

    @WunderKatze said:
    IMO the piat is not balanced. It does almost the same damage when it deflects as it does when it penetrates. In effect it is stupidly good at destroying late game armor.

    I really think it's deflection damage needs to be lowered.

    @1ncendiary_Rounds The bazooka is not that strong. It's more expensive, it has almost no deflection damage and low penetration.

    It's really not that impressive.

    LOL Zooks are that good. [removed] You have a 66% chance of penetrating ost p4 armor. The better RoF makes up for the less pen then the schreck. And how is it more expensive? Cuz u have to tech for it? That cost is shared with bars and m1919s so the tech cost is very small. Zooks are 50 munis, Ost schrecks are 60 and OKW are 90. And only piats get deflection damage.

  • #21
    2 years ago
    VutherVuther Posts: 2,129

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    LOL Zooks are that good. [removed] You have a 66% chance of penetrating ost p4 armor. The better RoF makes up for the less pen then the schreck. And how is it more expensive? Cuz u have to tech for it? That cost is shared with bars and m1919s so the tech cost is very small. Zooks are 50 munis, Ost schrecks are 60 and OKW are 90. And only piats get deflection damage.

    All infantry AT weapons have deflection damage aside from PTRSes, just for the Schreck and Zookas it's a usually unnoticeable 25%.

  • #22
    2 years ago
    You can attack ground with PIATs to destroy moving targets easily. They can also fire over los blockers and have huge range.
  • #23
    2 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289
    edited September 2016

    @WunderKatze said:
    IMO the piat is not balanced. It does almost the same damage when it deflects as it does when it penetrates. In effect it is stupidly good at destroying late game armor.

    I really think it's deflection damage needs to be lowered.

    +1 to this.

    Deflection damage, combined with low scatter and high RoF is what makes these PIAT situations. You can easily double up on these and stop firing every 5 seconds.

    It has 0,67 deflection damage , whereas all others have 0,25. It fires every 5,13 seconds (8,38 for the Shreck, 6,38 for the Bazooka) and has a scatter of 6 vs 13/15 on the two other.

    Thing is, even if it doesn't hit, its scatter is still low enough to hit large heavies, which it practically doesn't even need to penetrate to do damage. When damage and deflection damage is taken into account, its a ZOOK that always penetrates and fires faster, and occasionally have an 50% damage bonus. And it fires 50% faster than the Shreck while doing the same damage. Its basically a Shreck on strereoids, and at a price discount.

    And its usually wielded by the cheapest, most resilient unit. Uhhm.

    Nerf the scatter to the other's levels, hell even higher, it fires fast, and get deflection damage to 0.25 like the others.

  • #24
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,605
    edited September 2016

    @WunderKatze said:
    IMO the piat is not balanced. It does almost the same damage when it deflects as it does when it penetrates. In effect it is stupidly good at destroying late game armor.

    I really think it's deflection damage needs to be lowered.

    That is the whole point of PIATs.
    They are super effective vs late game heavy armor, because they were designed to be so, they are utterly useless above microed meds and lights.

    Deflection damage is there to hardcounter all the heavies frontally with PIATs, because they aren't going to hit anything else.

    You want to let go of deflection damage, you need to make the PIATs home-in on target and neither of that will happen.

    PIATs hardcounter heavies.
    Brits hardcounter heavies.
    Don't use heavies vs brits, because whole faction is designed to hardcounter them as opposed to remaining 2 which struggle at times, especially vs super heavies.

  • #25
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Piats are actually quite accurate if you use attack ground...

  • #26
    2 years ago
    hallashallas Posts: 7
    edited September 2016

    I think most of the people does not see the real problem with bloobs and those are two.

    1. Received accuracy bonus for vetted infantry.

    2. How non directional light cover works.

    Simply put, in example shown in the first post we see vetted infantry running across non directional light cover. That gives them insane bonus in received accuracy. More than that, UKF gets another firepower bonus while in cover...

    My vote? Make those bonuses count only when standing still.

    Offtop: lately I was wondering about how this game works in VP matc. COH2 introduced a change in basic map mechanics: every point on the map gives ammo, fuel or both to make every part of the map count in terms of incoming resources. Still the game is all about pushing around VP's (and that's why near VP there non directional light cover everywhere) and cut off points (map dependant). It works in 1vs1 but when playing 2vs2 and up the unit density is so big that actually game is all about pushing around VP's. Proposed map mechanics change: make the VP's also distributed on every strategic point (this is idea for CoH3 actually!). Form there whole new vista of map creation ideas emerge...

  • #27
    2 years ago

    With the Volksblob gone, I consider PIAT blobs (when properly used, as demonstrated in the video) one of the most significant causes of unfairness when UKF is involved:

    • 18 PIAT shots are enough to kill any vehicle in the game when they hit, even frontally (3x Sappers with double PIATs = no need to invest in real AT)
    • PIAT attack ground is micro for micro's sake, and gets old very fast
    • (PIATs can't damage abandoned team-weapons, since they lack a homing-projectile)

    I don't believe I need to explain to anyone why all of these issues need to be resolved; ideally at the same time.

    Firesparks has some good ideas implemented in his mod:

    • Both Bazooka and PIAT lose their deflection bonus (thus, if you want to use them offensively, you better go flanking)
    • PIATs become pinpoint accurate to make them easier to use vs light vehicles

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    ALSO aim time for handhelds needs increased...alot...
    has anyone else ever hopped into a building to see them volley off their zooks/shreks before the glass is even broke?
    i think this compounds the issue, mostly because of pathing but the fact that if you whisper into range for a fraction of a second the target is painted and satellite guided rockets are en route is ludicrous

    Another great idea is that one. Upping aim-times will completely kill schreck/zook/piat blobs in their cradle.

    • With an increased aim-time, most tanks will not have an issue running away from the AT blob
    • Since AT blobs will be inefficient, it will deter people from blobbing handheld AT in the first place

    In addition to that, an increase in the aim-time for piats will make them extremely unwieldly to use, even with the attack-ground trick. At the same time, ignoring the PIATs will remain extremely punishing to the tank user.

    @hallas said:
    Simply put, in example shown in the first post we see vetted infantry running across non directional light cover. That gives them insane bonus in received accuracy. More than that, UKF gets another firepower bonus while in cover...

    UKF cover bonuses are complicated.

    All UKF infantry (including commandos) get a -10% received accuracy bonus when in-cover (I believe this is non-directional).

    Sappers receive a very significant cover bonus (-70% cooldown, -50% reload). However:

    • The bonus only affects their Sten guns
    • Sapper sten-guns have crappy range, and bad moving performance
    • Thus, even though the bonuses are insane, they don't really factor in (unless, for some reason, you decide to assault sappers behind cover and hug them when doing so).
    • However, the bonus is damn good when clearing garrisons (Sappers can park to a piece of cover closest to the garrison)

    • NB: Tactical Support Salvage Engineers have not been fixed yet. As such, the entirety of these bonuses also apply to any guns these guys happen to get.

    Tommies actually receive a PENALTY when out of cover (+20% cooldown, +40% reload). Even though the cooldown penalty seems steep, it doesn't affect aim-times. As such (and if you do the math):

    • Bren guns suffer from -15% DPS when out of cover
    • No noticeable difference in rifle performance (below 2% DPS difference at max range)
    • Tommies completely suck at firing AT weapons (due to the high reload time penalty on top of longish reload times)

    PS: Make sure that your Tommies fire the final bursts of their Bren guns from cover, otherwise those guns will take forever to reload.

  • #28
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited September 2016

    The reason why aim time for hand held weapon was deceased compared to COH is vehicle pushing. Unless another solution can be found aim time for hand held AT weapon, should not be increased...

  • #29
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    @Katitof said:

    @RiCE said:
    Thats what called the result of a biased allied lobby against volks.
    You see bazookas and PIATs could be nerfed on the same base as schrecks were.

    Now OKW is running with 90MU panzerschrecks on noob a*s spios, while allies can give cheap AT weapons for any 5 mens squads. Giving screcks for Spios was a bad idea on the first place. 90MU for it is simply overpriced.

    You really need someone to draw you a picture how mini mortar is different then heat seeking missile of all armor doom or you want to just create a storm in a glass of water here?

    Dont you think if damage or the projectile would ever be an issue with the schreck, than Relic would nerf it instead of simply give them to SPios? The issue was with the cheap volks, the 5 men squad with a single schreck, and the lack of munition sink abilities for OKW, and the speed of XP gain when they pinged vehicles.

    None of these ever came up regarding of the bazooka or the PIATs, yet the same problems exists there too,

  • #30
    2 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343
    edited September 2016

    @Vipper said:
    The reason why aim time for hand held weapon was deceased compared to COH is vehicle pushing. Unless another solution can be found aim time for hand held AT weapon, should not be increased...

    This is a good point.

    With respect to light-vehicle pushing, nearly every single faction has snares on their mainline infantry, which can act as a deterrent (PIATs were never a deterrent vs light vehicles. Thus, nothing of value was lost).

    With respect to medium tank crushing, he best solution would be to implement a temporary maximum-speed penalty whenever a human is crushed (just like CoH1). I will try to see if it is possible to implement this in a mod.

    PS: With respect to the original video, I don't think it's the PIATs that won the game (though they contributed a lot). It was the ridiculous Airlanding Officer (chew bubblegum and kick-ass) charge buff that enabled the PIAT blob in the first place. 4 Bren guns between the Officer and the Commando squad (and the ridiculous bonuses) was all the anti-infantry that player really required to keep the PIAT blob safe (and also carry his teammate).

  • #31
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited September 2016

    @Mr_Smith said:
    With respect to light-vehicle pushing, nearly every single faction has snares on their mainline infantry, ...

    But axis do not have snares on their AT infantry which mean that the AT infantry would need a snare baby sitter to be able to even fire and additional micro if snare does not do enough damage to cause engine damage.

    Infantry pushing was, imo one of the worse aspect of COH and COH2 has come close enough with removing the snare critical. Really no reason to come any closer in making vehicle pushing a reliable tactic...

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