[SOV] [1V1] Penals, Guards and Guard motor coordinated tactics

#1
2 years ago
AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
edited October 2016 in Balance Feedback
So, I think I'm not the only one having problems in 1v1 as Ostheer, specially versus the soviets. It's really frustrating to play versus a soviet that builds 3 penals then goes guard motor coordination tactics and calls in a couple guards rifle, this way they have building clearance with the flamethrouwers, can counter 222 and not to mention that penals + guards totally destroy german infantry in early game. Then you might think, maybe a couple hmgs should help controll penals and guards but you would be dead wrong because besides the 3 penals with flames, they can call in a 120mm mortar and at this point just to put the last nail in the coffin they build a t-70.

I am really interested to know what you guys think about guards and penals at this time in the game and also what do you think about the guard motor coordinated tactics commander?
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Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,641

    That is a crapload of resources, so you should have advantage in squad numbers on the field.
    Get a sniper or two if 120mm is giving you hard time on MGs.

  • #3
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Penals are simply too cost efficient and too versatile having lots of DPS in all ranges.

  • #4
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited October 2016
    The reason this doc is so good is that it compliments itself perfectly. You basically got something for everything in it plus the stuff you got stock.
    But this is nothing new. All factions got such commanders, including the OH.

    This is a matter of poor(or very good depending on how you look at it) commander design, negating too much of the opponents counterplay.

    To tell you the truth, I was horrified to see this as an option in the latest dev-poll, because it has got nothing to do with this specific doc itself. It's because of the underlying problems riddling the game that it's so powerful.
    But thankfully, it's recived nill votes, so I guess I'm not alone in that assessment. ;)
  • #5
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,641

    @Vipper said:
    Penals are simply too cost efficient and too versatile having lots of DPS in all ranges.

    Drive up 222, there, penals hardcountered.
    No, each penal squad on the map will not have personal guard.

  • #6
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Penals are one of the most expensive infantry in the game, who are only good at AI and don't scale all that well, so to be perfectly honest I think they're in a perfect place right now.

  • #7
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    @McMartel No, Penals are not "one of the most expensive infantry in the game" unless you set the bar for that very low. For comparison:

    Squads cheaper than Penals:

    - Building units (Engineers, Pioneers, Sappers, RE)
    - Partisans
    - Conscripts
    - Riflemen
    - Tommies
    - Grenadiers
    - Assault Grenadiers
    - Volksgrenadiers
    - Panzerfüssiliers
    - Assault Engineers
    - Artillery Officer

    Squads with equal or higher costs:

    - Building Units (Sturmpioneers)
    - Panzergrenadiers
    - Guards
    - Shocks
    - Stormtroopers
    - Fallschirmjäger
    - Obersoldaten
    - Jaeger Light
    - Rangers
    - Commandos
    - Paratroopers

    As you can see, they are hardly amongst the most expensive Infantry squad in the game. And they scale very well in the AI department.
  • #8
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    1. All but 2 of those are doctrinal, not relevant
    2. Penals are the mainline fighting infantry of the USSR, cosncripts are support, so for a mainline non-doctrinal unit, they're incredibly expensive
    3. They get a flamethrower? Big whoop. Compare that to rifles, IS, or even volks who all get upgrades that radically increase their AI ability.
  • #9
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    edited October 2016
    Whether the units are doctrinal or not doesn't matter. You said most expensive squad in the game. And they are not.

    They are 20 MP more expensive than Rifles or IS. That's a whooping 7%. I'm sure that enormous price difference warrants absolute superiority and a lack of clear disadvantages except for lacking AT, which can be overcome by creating a combat force consisting not only of Penals.

    Also, you don't seem to have a clue what scaling means. Scaling is the ability of a unit to stay relevant as the game progresses and escalates. The means by which they attain this ability, be it through upgrades or vet or a combination thereof is irrelevant. And as far as relevance is concerned, Penals stay relevant throughout the game.
  • #10
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    ...
    2. Penals are the mainline fighting infantry of the USSR, cosncripts are support, so for a mainline non-doctrinal unit, they're incredibly expensive
    ....

    Actually conscripts are the mainline infantry for the Soviets...

    Penal are more cost efficient than PGs (without shrecks since then it no longer an AI unit) and Obers...

    They are also more cost efficient that allot of doctrinal unit and that is also relevant...

  • #11
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @Katitof said:
    Drive up 222, there, penals hardcountered.

    The majority of units have hard counters that does not mean that the majority of units is not OP or UP...

  • #12
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    1. Go to every conscript thread, people will insist that conscripts are support, not combat mainline units, go to every single conscript thread I've made and then come back.
    2. Penals are entirely AI, PZG's can become AT monsters, why are you comparing a narrow focus unit to a versatile one?
  • #13
    2 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058

    Considering price, it must bee good.

  • #14
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @MCMartel said:
    1. Go to every conscript thread, people will insist that conscripts are support, not combat mainline units, go to every single conscript thread I've made and then come back.
    2. Penals are entirely AI, PZG's can become AT monsters, why are you comparing a narrow focus unit to a versatile one?

    Conscript have been they mainline infantry for Soviets since the launch of the game...Penal are semi elite infantry the same way PGs are...

    PGs with out Shrecks are entirely AI similar to Penals. PG with shrecks are mostly AT since they lose about 50% of their AI DPS.

    You are actually confusing the term versatility...PG are either AI or AT, Guards on the other hand are versatile since their weapon are both AI and Anti Light vehicle/ medium tank.

    Penal are the soviet equivalent of PGs end of story...

  • #15
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    If you're going to just insist than you're right "end of story" rather than engaging with my argument, I'm going to ignore you, nice job tanking productive discussion.

  • #16
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    If you're going to just insist than you're right "end of story" rather than engaging with my argument, I'm going to ignore you, nice job tanking productive discussion.

    If you want arguments all you have to do is read all the lines above the "end of story"...

    If you had actually seen the game in release you would know that Penal and PG where mirror units costing about the same (340)...The units even now continue to be semi elite AI units.

    The fact that PGs can change roles and become an AT unit does not change anything...

    If you actually compare them you will see that PGs come later with a higher tech cost, are more expensive by 13%, more expensive to maintain with more Pop and more cost and time to reinforce per entity (without even mentioning merge), a better vet 1 ability and generally considerably less cost efficient...

    Penal are actually one of the most cost efficient unit in the game...

  • #17
    2 years ago

    LOL, conscripts mainline infantry. If that was true, why do people spam mgs and penals instead of cons. Because cons pretty much lose to everything besides basic engis. This is of course without the doctrinal ppsh. By the time cons get close enough to grens, dead. Sturms, volks, pgrens, obers, every axis infantry call in or not will dominate conscripts unless you're comparing a vet 3 con and 0 vet opposing unit. The only type you see vet 3 cons if from spamming AT grenade to get vet because they never hit or kill anything to get enough vet.

  • #19
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    edited October 2016

    Thank you DA, for articulating basically exactly what I was trying to say very eloquently and in excellent detail.

  • #20
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    No, sorry @vipper not end of story.

    You are jumping into a debate with out actually what has reading been said....

    Versatility comes at a cost, penals are not the Soviet equipment to pgrens because pgrens are multi purpose,they CAN be AI byt they can also be incredibly AT.

    You are making the same mistake MCmartel has made and confusing the term versatility...Penal are AI anti and anti garrison units, PG are AI or AT unit. In other words they are not more versatile unit they are simply a highly dedicated unit in either AI or At role...
    The versatility of the faction as whole is completely different issue.

    As for cons being mainline, they are and they are not. ...

    Cons are irrelevant in this thread that is about Penals and Guards...
    The mainline infantry for each faction as designed by relic are:
    Grenadier
    Conscripts
    Riflemen
    Volkgrenadier
    Tommies

    The problem with granting pgrens too much AI is that that would snowball.

    I never suggested that PG should have their DPS buffed...It is the Penal that simply overperform for their cost currently...

    And finally yea, guards can fight infantry and armour at the same time, but not well and not quickly....

    Never said that Guard where as good as PGs in AI or AT, I brought them up as an example of versatile unit, Guards are designed to be Jack of all trades and master of none...(but they do seem to OP slightly, mainly when they get high vet)

  • #21
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    AI and anti garrison are in the same vein, anti infantry and anti tank are not. For example Park shocks beside a garrison and watch the enemy melt, or let a sniper eat away at the garrisoned troop and see how they clear out. Another good example of this would be the vickers, the job of mgs is supposed to be blob control, the Vicky trades that for more AI,as a result it does very well vs garrisoned units.

    An individual pgren squad is not versatile as say an isu is, its versatile like the vcoh Sherman was, the unit type is able to be specialized into something it wasnt. This is not the case for penals.

    Also, with that glorious buff to bundled nades I would absolutely commend pgrens on their ability to clear out garrisons.

    I feel like the problem you (and others) are having with penals is a problem that is shared with volks, rifles and sappers- no cover doesnt actually matter, if you have enough firepower you can push a defended position simply via volume of fire and minimal losses.

    The difference being of course that penals are more expensive and less flexible than those options.

    In my own personal experience the best way to deal with penal/guards is the good Ole mg/sniper combo. Bleed em out, they may field a sniper to counter it but then thats like 1000mp tied up in one spot leaving you to be a bit more mobile
  • #22
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @thedarkarmadillo said:

    I feel like the problem you (and others) are having with penals is a problem...

    I do not have a problem dealing with Penals, they simply overpeform for their cost and time that they hit the field...

  • #23
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    And what is your proposed fix? Keep in mind they do cost more than rifles, lack any of the flexibility and also require a small investment just to have access to them.
  • #24
    2 years ago

    The penals backed by guard motor is very effective and gives me problems too as a decent rank 500 Ost 1v1 player. I present two strats:

    1) More conservative approach. If u don't see any penal bulletins, get the usual build 3 grens 1 mg. Keep two of the grens somewhat together when capping. This way they can support each other if a penal squad decides to bully one of them. If u spread out each gren and the SU player goes heavy on penals, you'll lose map control everywhere u don't have the mg. The first 2 minutes of capping is also for scouting the SU players unit choice. If u see pure penals and no cons, u cannot afford to spread out. Always keep a gren next to the mg for the faust of the scout car that SU always gets with this strat. Just make sure to hold your fuel point and rush for a pair of 222s.

    2) Confident approach. If u see penal bulletins and maybe even guard bulletins, then u know their strategy to a T. U can confidently skip tier 1, build 2 mgs and 2 pios. Lock down, fuel and cutoff. Advance mgs to positions already scouted by pios. Work them as a pair, so 2 teams of mg + pio. Rush for pair of 222s. Try to focus your screen at the positions u think are the most vulnerable to be attacked esp after SU player has encountered your mg. A flamer car is probably on the way to wipe it. But u can hear it in the fog of war, so retreat the mg as soon as you hear the car coming.

    A note about using 222s vs a SU player with a heavy penal strat with guards docs on the loadout. It's quite obvious that going 222s forces the guards doctrines. THAT DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY NULLIFY 222 PLAY. First off, u can get plenty of damage in with 222s before SU player gets 2 command points. Penals must be supported by guards at all times or else u can make them pay. Use the 222s as hit and run on capping squads. When the guards arrive, your 222s will already have left the location. After getting a pair of 222's just spam pgrens to counter guards (if u skipped tier 1) and even if u have grens, pgrens will be a great addition vs penals and guards.

  • #25
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    And what is your proposed fix? Keep in mind they do cost more than rifles, lack any of the flexibility and also require a small investment just to have access to them.

    There are a number of thing that can be done to fix Penals from very simple to more elaborate...

    First fix their weapons and veterancy bonuses, their accuracy bonuses at VET 3 are simply broken.

    The should be designed with a role in mind, their weapons should follow weapons profiles and they should designed to excel at one range according to role...

    Remove flamer upgrade and offer an upgrade that goes along with their intended role smg for close or semi auto for mid or lmg for long range...

    What I would be willing to test though is completely different, move them to T0 (con at T1) give them smgs make them 200 MP but without being to reinforce and give them merge...(there are changes that would also be needed but will not go in length here but you can find it here https://www.coh2.org/topic/46927/penal-battalion-a-completely-different-approach)

  • #26
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032
    @Vipper there's two important differences between PGrens and Penals that justify the way things are.

    First, and very importantly - Penals are in an AI exclusive tier. They have no MG support, no AT and no mortar support (unless doctrinal - but more on that later). They need to be dominating early infantry pushes because there's no point to T1 otherwise.

    Secondly - Penals are initially going to be ahead in vet - and as anti-infantry specialists their vet is quite good. It's a bit rough but getting your PGrens up to equal footing in vet will show they can certainly brawl with Penals.

    Thirdly - going Penals limits your doctrinal choices if you want call in AT. I think theres only 5 or 6 commanders including those with M-42s that provide call in AT? PGrens can be supported by anything - from Assault Grens to combat camo to MGs...


    For tips on fighting this combo? Skip the 222. Get a halftrack. If you've got a pair of LMG Grens and a PGren constantly reinforcing you'll get the edge eventually. It will draw the guards forward to fight the Half Track or force them to fight a losing battle. If they do make it in range - PTRS cant be fired on the move so lob grenades from where you can. Keep them dancing just like the old days.
  • #27
    2 years ago

    For tips on fighting this combo? Skip the 222. Get a halftrack. If you've got a pair of LMG Grens and a PGren constantly reinforcing you'll get the edge eventually. It will draw the guards forward to fight the Half Track or force them to fight a losing battle. If they do make it in range - PTRS cant be fired on the move so lob grenades from where you can. Keep them dancing just like the old days.

    I think it would work theoretically, but if your opponent spreads out his forces, you'll lose map control. Your using 4 units to fight probably just a penal and guard squad.

  • #28
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @Lazarus said:
    @Vipper there's two important differences between PGrens and Penals that justify the way things are.
    First, and very importantly - Penals are in an AI exclusive tier.

    Actually you are confusing units with faction design, the fact that Penal are in certain tier does not mean that they should overperform as AI.

    1) Pg and Penal are comparable as AI infantry
    2) Penals come to early for the punch they pack, they are way too good a very wide variety of ranges and their vet bonuses are simply broken...they are simply too cost efficient...

  • #29
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032
    @SaveAxisFactions true - but if it's just a single Penal + Guard they'll pretty quickly retreat. You can pile a PGren and a Gren in to the HT and drive off to the next fight - as well as use the forward reinforce to make up for your field presence.

    @Vipper confused nothing. Penals are AI specialists in an AI only tier. They don't overperform because as I said - they are beating up Grens/Volks/Sturms who are not AI specialists, PGrens who are losing due to vet differences when they arrive- with equal vet it's all about positioning, and Penals have no non-doc AT support making them vulnerable to light vehicle rushes.
  • #30
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @Vipper confused nothing. Penals are AI specialists in an AI only tier. They don't overperform because as I said...

    You are entitled to you opinion...others are entitled to their opinion. Even Relic suspect they are over-performing since they included in the poll and 13 people voted their over performance as the number 1 problem over things that obviously OP like the USF mortar...

    they are beating up...

    The problem is not that beat them but that they do so in most ranges and situations (cover, garrison....) being a specialist does not mean they should be better than other unit at all ranges. Take shock troops for instance, they are what you call "specialist" yet they lose to "non specialist" units at long range.

    The reason why I claim that imo they are too cost efficient and overperform are listed so I will not repeat them again.

  • #31
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    And again, you're simply wrong. They have no versatility, and they require a significant locking-in tier investment which makes a penal-heavy strategy very vulnerable to light vehicles or early vehicles of any type.

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