[SOV] [1V1] Penals, Guards and Guard motor coordinated tactics

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  • #182
    2 years ago
    Expendable and incapable are not conflicting terms. If you insist upon relying on the flavour text, these were trained, hardened soldiers. Compare to conscripts who wer given a gun and sent to die. Disable retreat when in combat.
    They become high risk for their high reward, they maintain flavour and the soviet are not required to pick specific doctrines to have infantry that can kill things heavier than the squishiest axis squad, and only under certain circumstances. They cant return unless they kill the enemy (or soft retreat) maybe replace the vet 3 accuracy with restored retreat.

    The soviet need infantry that can actually hit things without limiting doctrine choices because cons dont cut it and doctrinal restriction (to function even remotely) is thankfully a thing of the past
  • #183
    2 years ago

    @Vuther said:
    That concept isn't really workable in Conscripts' current state, anyway.

    Why not? if penals had the current conscript stats and conscripts had a little bit better stats it would work I think.

  • #184
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited November 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Compare to conscripts who wer given a gun and sent to die.

    This didnt happen throughout the war, this happened in desperate situations like stalingrad and also didnt happen only to conscripts it most likely happened to penals too. But being conscripts the main soviet infantry and for gameplay purposes we cant think of them as they were on that day. So it would be nice to see penals in tier 0 and be the expendable suicide infantry kinda like osttrupen and conscripts at tier 1 and take advantage of conscripts being in that tier to give the tier some light vehicle counter in the form of the PTRS anti-tank rifle.

    Disable retreat when in combat.

    This is an interesting feature, I like the sound of that. In that case current penal stats wouldnt be op.

    and the soviet are not required to pick specific doctrines to have infantry that can kill things heavier than the squishiest axis squad, and only under certain circumstances.

    I mean, I play with conscripts and I do pretty well most of the time, they need to be in the heaviest cover possible or they die pretty quickly and with some kind of support nearby like hmg or another 1/2 conscripts squads. Please dont start a trend where conscripts are underpowered :D

  • #185
    2 years ago
    VutherVuther Posts: 2,129

    @AceOfTitanium said:
    Why not? if penals had the current conscript stats and conscripts had a little bit better stats it would work I think.

    Conscripts are already the meatshield squad encouraging close-range with Oorah! and the shortest-ranged AI grenade in the game. It'd take a good bit of work to make them really distinctive from each other if Penals get bumped lower in effectiveness and cost. I can't disagree that logically it makes more thematic sense to, but it's not work you could really expect to see happen.

  • #186
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited November 2016

    @Vuther said:
    Conscripts are already the meatshield squad encouraging close-range with Oorah!

    Oorah! isn't really to close the range unless you have the PPSh submachineguns. It's more of a run for cover or run out of hmg range. And also, penals have oorah!.

    but it's not work you could really expect to see happen.

    I mean, recently relic is implementing some of quality of life's mod changes into the live version of the game so I dont see why they wouldnt take some things from other mods (I am currently working on a mod trying to be true to what the developers intended with each faction and balancing to the best of my abilities while giving the player the most number of strategies possible with the units the game has right now. Oh and also making every faction "commander independent" which is one of the problems besides units being op or up.)

  • #187
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    @AceOfTitanium said:

    @MCMartel said:
    They're not supposed to be expendable, they're supposed to be soviet elite infantry

    I quote from the in game hud two descriptions for the penals:
    "Penal battalion must succeed in their assaults or die trying" <- expendable right there

    Slightly unrelated - but allow me to quote something to you from the game.

    "Fire pits can not be built during blizzards". Now, not only are blizzards not a thing, but even when they were you could still build fire pits. Don't take what's written as gospel - especially in descriptions, because very rarely does Relic correct their text when making changes to their game.

  • #188
    2 years ago
    "We can now build medium tanks and rocket artillery"
  • #189
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    ... and doctrinal restriction (to function even remotely) is thankfully a thing of the past

    In that case the whole range of Soviet doctrinal units should be redesigned. They Soviet access to doctrinal units should be limited as with other factions, cost efficiency of some of these unit should be reduced and the timing of these units pushed back.

    If one wants to bring faction closer inline by buffing their weakness one should also nerf their strengths.

    Finally a semi-elite unit like the current Penals should be locked behind a second building as it comes to early compared t other semi-elite infantry.

  • #190
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited November 2016
    > @Vipper said:
    > Finally a semi-elite unit like the current Penals should be locked behind a second building as it comes to early compared t other semi-elite infantry.
    Why do people insist to have elite or semi-elite units in the main faction :s Elite units is one of the reasons why you choose commander X or Y. The only faction with an elite unit is okw, because they are supposed to be a more eliteish faction, and it comes in mid/late game. So please take the idea out of your head that penals are elite.
  • #191
    2 years ago
    @AceOfTitanium soviet players insist upon semi elite troops in their roster because cons dont hold up. Soviet players are forced to use either maxim spam without viable penals because cons can not hold a line. They have lots of models and lots of utility but that wont save them from volks or grens.
  • #192
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited November 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo then make penals "not hold up" and move them to tier 0 and move conscripts to tier 1 and make them hold enough and give them the option to have PTRS anti-tank rifles. This way we would tackle 2 problems which are the penals over performing and tier 1 not having a light armored car counter.

  • #193
    2 years ago
    @AceOfTitanium all you are doing is swapping names then. You still have a t0 non combatant mainline infantry and a t1 that can fight. Calling them penals or cons is just semantics. However from a lore perspective penals make sense being the better fighters as they were actually regular soldiers, disgraced but properly trained. Straight up if they didnt need to change voice lines they could call penals strelki and call it a day. But again, the name is unimportant.
  • #194
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited November 2016

    "Although the CoH team attempts to be as historical as possible when designing the game and it's mechanics, sometimes it is required to deviate slightly to produce fun and entertaining gameplay." <- Quoting Kyle_RE

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Calling them penals or cons is just semantics. However from a lore perspective penals make sense being the better fighters as they were actually regular soldiers, disgraced but properly trained.

    For me as for the devs its important to be as historicaly correct as possible, it's one of the reasons why I really like this game so it isnt just semantics, it breaks immersion.
    And here is why I think penals should be the expendable type of unit life osttrupen:
    Quoting from wiki- "Shtrafbats were Soviet penal battalions that fought on the Eastern Front in World War II. The shtrafbats were greatly increased in number by Joseph Stalin in July 1942 via Order No. 227. Penal units consisted of two types of personnel: permanent and temporary. Permanent personnel were staff officers, company commanders, platoon leaders, political officers, and other junior commanders. Temporary personnel were the shtrafniks who were sent to the unit for their crimes or wrongdoings in order to redeem themselves with their own blood."
    So as you can see penals werent all regular soldiers, they had officers to give orders to the guys that were sent because of their crimes or wrongdoings, and being a criminal doesnt mean that you had soldier training or that you are a killing machine. Conscripts on the other hand had a little bit of training and had more equipement so they should be better fighters than penals.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    You still have a t0 non combatant mainline infantry

    Conscripts at the moment fight pretty well if you know how to use them. Late game they die pretty easily but by then you should use them more to defend a position with the sandbag wall that they can build.

  • #195
    2 years ago
    @AceOfTitanium you are mistaking what kind of criminal they are using. Keep in mind this is a time when anything but complete submission to the ideals was criminal. These are not criminals from anything like a modern prison, they were those that were cowards, those that questioned the morality of what was happening. They WERE soldiers, but those that in non war times would have been straight up killed or imprisoned for "undermining the motherland" and bs things like that. The idea is why waste a bullet when the enemy can waste theirs. They are not murderers, they are dissident.

    But none of that matters, relic isnt going to start swapping roles around and fucking with the balance (on that scale) of a faction that has already been overhauled.

    Also cons are mostly aight,imo they need a slight cost adjustment late game (they are supposed to be the expendable troops) but they work well enough early game.
  • #196
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    @AceOfTitanium you have a misconception. Very few penals were civilian prisoners. They mostly comprised of military personnel who had failed in their duties, disobeyed an order or written/said something someone didnt like. In fact - a lot of people in the penal batallions accepted that they belonged there. They knew they did something "wrong" and were ready for the punishment.

    Hell - look at the wiki you quoted. "Stalin increased the size with order 227". Order 227 is a military order refusing soldiers to retreat. ONLY soldiers can be guilty of disobeying 227. At the bare minimum these are conscripts who have survived one fire fight
  • #197
    2 years ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,284 mod

    [moderator input] /me double taps gently on this sign that denotes "no historical debates" [ https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/218478/historical-debates#latest ]

  • #198
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited November 2016

    [removed]

    So I see two ways to solve the problem:
    1) Move penals to tier 0, give them the current conscript stats and move conscripts to tier 1, make their stats a tiny bit better and give them PTRS anti-tank rifles to give the tier some anti-tank.

    2) Replace penals with guards (since they are pretty good versus infantry and armored vehicles but not specialized and give guards the PTRS upgrade or the DP28 machine gun [not both upgrades like they have at the moment]) and make penals a commander infantry "call in" just like osttrupen are.

  • #199
    2 years ago

    no no and no. Trying to make SOV T1 useless again eh?

    I love the flamethrower arguments (sarcasm). If it was SUCH a problem, why did few people use Penals before since release when they always had a flamethrower? Dun dun dun, because they sucked and their vet sucked which just got a rework and now everyone wants to nerf SOV back into oblivion.

    Here's some stats from coh2chart.com:

    1v1 rank 1-250 win rate:
    SOV = 59.2%
    OST = 57.6%

    1v1 rank 251-500 win rate:
    SOV = 52.6%
    OST = 52.8%

    1v1 rank 500+ win rate:
    SOV = 43.1%
    OST = 47.6%

    Using this data, SOV wins slightly more than OST in top 250 but marginally. The moment you past 250, SOV now dips below OST. Personally if penals were so OP, i would expect all ranks to be beating OST however that is not the case.

  • #200
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    I thought coh2chart.com was proven to be innacurate?

    Anyway, I always thought penals were the same crutch that stugs are to Ostheer, everything else in t1 and t2 is lackluster by comparison, therefore you have to rely on penals to carry you through to the midgame. Just as stugs are better than all other wehr tanks, being the most cost effective way to fight back in the mid/late game.

  • #201
    2 years ago

    Going penals means sacrificing AT guns and the HMG if you go guards motor coordination. The result is a very strong, but non-stationary force with limited AT capabilities.

    You should find that it means they have a hard time holding ground they took and will have to retreat and reinforce constantly, both fields where the Axis excel.

    It is often wise to yield ground and feign weakness while back-capping them while they are attacking and then, no doubt racing to reclaim their territories, you make a stand at said territories.

    Without them realizing they have been coerced into a hasty attack while you could back-cap the territory you falsely yielded. The key is not to defend harder, but to force or trick them into unwise attacks. If they rout, they cannot hold anything at all, unlike axis with bunkers and flak HQ

  • #202
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited November 2016

    @For the rest of his life said:
    The key is not to defend harder, but to force or trick them into unwise attacks.

    In other words to beat this Soviet strategy one has to pray that his opponent gets cocky and makes a mistake...Great counter play get a holy book and pray for your opponent to make a mistake...

    Penal are simply way too strong for the time frame they appear and they need to change...

  • #203
    2 years ago

    @Vipper said:
    Penal are simply way too strong for the time frame they appear and they need to change...

    That's a convoluted way of saying ''Nerf em''.

    The are fine as they are. Without them Soviets would be over-reliant on doctrinal units, which severely limits viable commanders.

    Soviet industry is actually usable now because of penals, in large games.

  • #204
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited November 2016

    @For the rest of his life said:
    That's a convoluted way of saying ''Nerf em''.

    Actually it a very clear way to say that they need to be nerfed, they are simply to strong for the early game the same way Shock and Guards where OP when moved to CP1. They are semi elite infantry and as such they should augment mainline infantry and not replace it.

    If you prefer they should cost 290 come with guards mosin and be able to upgrade with 6 svt for 90 MU that would give Penals same DPS as riflemen... (and reduce the ridicules accuracy vet bonuses)

    The are fine as they are. Without them Soviets would be over-reliant on doctrinal units, which severely limits viable commanders.

    Soviet are designed to be reliant to doctrinal units, you want them to be closer to other faction? ok limit doctrinal units to 3-4 commanders increase the price of doctrinal units and CP. Then they work like other faction where doctrinal units are more like flavor than core units...

    Soviet industry is actually usable now because of penals, in large games.

    That is commander issue not a balance one,
    large game is not basis for balance choices,
    Industry is viable with any start in range games...

  • #205
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Conscripts are useless as fighting units, the soviets have no fighting infantry, therefore penals need to be the main fighting infantry, that's just a fact. Simple as that. You nerf down penals soviet infantry roster falls apart.

  • #206
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Con's and Sov t2 are terrible, so Penals should stay overpowered to compensate. That's a poor argument, no offense :|.

    Penals should be nerfed, but at the same time adjustments made to the rest of their T1/T2/Cons. Surely that's the sensible way to go about balancing it.

  • #207
    2 years ago
    Relic isnt going to put forth the resourcsmes to do ANOTHER soviet overhaul, if you check the "whats new" feed or whatever it shows 1 post a week from relic, thats the kinda support cohw is getting. There is no presence, there is no communication there are no resources. Ost needs a look at much more than soviet having infantry that can put up a fight for once in the history of the faction without relying on a doctrine.
  • #208
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited November 2016

    Soviets are probably the most well put together faction of the game, the only thing they lack is some kind of anti-light vehicle in tier 1 which can be easily resolved with a PTRS rifles on whoever infantry is in that tier (I would like to see cons instead of penals but thats not a urgent problem)

    @MCMartel said:
    Conscripts are useless as fighting units, the soviets have no fighting infantry

    I have been playing as soviets quite frequently lately and that sounds like you just dont know how to use cons properly. They can be good in numbers, flanking while 1 squad takes the suppression or in conjunction with maxims. The thing that is missing is what I said above so they can work in conjunction with tier 1 inf to take down light vehicles with the combo at nades + PTRS rifles.

  • #209
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    Cons are far from useless as fighting units. Cost for cost theyll easily put up an excellent fight against Sturms, PGrens and AGrens. Its really only Volks and Grens that are giving them an unfair go. Granted these units are two of the more common enemies cons will face - just saying its not as grim as it looks.

    A neat fix for cons I feel could be a slight range buff on the molotov and Oorah! Cancelling the throw range debuff while suppressed. Would justify the longer throw time and give cons a very clear role of smashing support weapons to make room for the real Soviet fighters to move up.

    Put a muni sidegrade in T1 to eliminate the fuel cost of the AT grenade upgrade and a muni sidegrade in T2 to eliminate the fuel cost on the molly upgrade
  • #210
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Right, so cons which have a lower effective DPS, worse RA, pay sidegrade for snares, pay sidegrade for grenades, and get no weapon upgrade are just A-ok, but grens which have better DPS, better RA, have snares tock, get grenades for free, and get MG's are in need of all the help? Yeah that's not biased.

  • #211
    2 years ago

    Cons are slightly weaker and have a different role, but are always supported by highly effective doctrinal infantry. They have insanely good RA bonuses with Vet and the highest staying power/field presence of ALL mainline infantry with Vet.

    Grens are not. They do not have Guards, Shocks, Penals as a backup from the get go. They have incredibly expensive and squishy Panzergrenadiers for a backup, or Osties who are basically reject Cons rather, as a replacement.

    Even Ostruppen are better nowadays since if Grens are gonna loose anyway to anyone and will get randomly wiped (and its only a matter of WHEN), it better to just keep a 200mp/17rmp fodder on the field to cover your support weapons than a 240/30(!!!!)/60muni one.

    Grens are only good for one thing - bleed you dry of both manpower and ammo. Because Grens do not face incredibly squishy Grens with a steady, but nothing of excess firepower but dual-wielding Riflemen-800s or dual wielding Concrete Tommies or Royal Changengineers.

    Grens always face that, Cons only face Grens most of the time and they can actually beat them.

    And only God knows how much indirect fire in the form of Calliopes and/or Land Matresses or Katys and Mortar pits with the finishing T-34/85 / Comet spam. Both of which are very AI capable.

    While the Cons... Well they face maybe an Ostwind that cant hit sht, a Pz IV which can very easily driven away by a cheap SU 76, and if the Wehr pleyer actually bothers to build a Panther that cant do sht to infantry, unlike Comets and T-34/85s. Well. Who cares about a Panther when any frontal infantry attack will drive it away...

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