[SOV] [1V1] Penals, Guards and Guard motor coordinated tactics

12345679»

Comments

  • #242
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,653

    @Vipper said:

    @Katitof said:
    Must be the reason why top players use conscripts in every single game, because there isn't much blobbing there.
    Oh wait, they aren't, because its a gimmick unit that isn't good at anything but being a meatshield and mergebots for real infantry.

    Since Penal are OP conscript are used as meatshield and merge bots but that does not actually prove that conscripts are up...

    They aren't up per se, they just lack weapon upgrade which is mandatory for a unit to scale in current meta.
    As I've said, they are fine with weapon upgrade doctrines and in coop with special weapons brit, but stand alone they fall short and become glorified M5 with legs by mid game.

    Swarm tactics do not work due to bleed and their combat ineffectiveness, molos are completely useless noob traps.
    Penals are very solid, but I would call them OP(inb4 sovit fanboy!) as they have clear weaknesses against any kind of suppression, vehicles, snipers. OKW might have slightly harder time vs them then wehr, but lack of durability for penals helps counter them as well as they're easy to focus. If anyone is blobbing them, then wrong counters are used(aka none).

    Penals cost 300mp.
    Guards cost 320mp.

    You can get both, but you'll bleed hard if you go for more then 2 each and you'll have a slower early game anyway.

    Plus, if that combo was as effective as some people here claim, we'd had soviets much higher in 1v1 W:L ratios then they currently are and if you ask me, 1v1 as well as other modes are currently BEST balanced since pretty much forever.

    There are units that might not be pleasent to fight, but they are hardly OP, were they really OP, that'd be reflected in soviet wins-its not. The claims are exaggerated.

    So, instead of focusing on units and synergies that work, we should focus on ones that do not, like AGs, M-42, reason for PGs to use G43, con PTRS(funny, pretty much all that does not work belongs to vanila factions).

  • #243
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @Katitof said:
    Penals are very solid, but I would call them OP...

    Glad to see that call them OP and agree with Relic.

    You can get both, but you'll bleed hard if you go for more then 2 each and you'll have a slower early game anyway.

    I have responded to bleed argument so I will not repeat myself it is simply wrong...

  • #244
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Katitof said:

    Penals are very solid, but I would call them OP(inb4 sovit fanboy!)

    I would say they bully other infantry in the early game a little too well, and their vet rewards are a little too high, their ability to gain vet with a flamethrower is far too quick. Other from that they are fine.

    I'm not saying they're in the state rifles are, but they seem to perform a little too well for their timing.

    Plus, if that combo was as effective as some people here claim, we'd had soviets much higher in 1v1 W:L ratios then they currently are and if you ask me, 1v1 as well as other modes are currently BEST balanced since pretty much forever.

    I thought people had noted that Sov 1v1 was pulling ahead of the Axis factions recently, hence the reason Relic highlighted this commander as being a problem in the balance questionnaire?

    I think its less of a problem of Penals/Guards and more of the HVT Mortar in the Guard Motor commander. It's so diffuclt to pin the Penals/guards when the sov mortar is smashing your mg's to pieces, or dropping huge amounts of smoke.

    I do presume that's 1v1 matchups in terms of Sov vs Okw/Wehr right? Otherwise USF is grossly overperforming and Brits need some help.

  • #245
    3 years ago
    So penals+guards+120mm are problematic? To be fair that is like 1000mp in 3 units....
  • #246
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    It is expensive, but it counters and outperforms anything early game as the commander basically cancels the weaknesses of sov t1. The mortar prevents mg play, the guards counter the light vehicles, leaving penals to run rampant and walk all over the volks and grens, and this combo uses no fuel, so the t70 comes out lightning quick.

    Honestly, it seems just about every Sov player in 2v2 uses this combo, that or the reserve army commander.

    At the moment I have no answer to beating it, I consider myself a good Ostheer player, but aside from crutching on a pair of snipers, there is very little you can currently do to fight against this commander.

    My suggestion would be to replace the heavy mortar with incendiary barrage, that gives the axis team breathing room to use support weapons.

  • #247
    3 years ago

    I've talked about this in the past but the 120 mm absolutely sucks garbage. The only thing it has is more range but it's RoF, damage, aoe, accuracy, has all been nerfed to oblivion over multiple patches. If you fail to move your MG, that's up your fault. But i would take a 81-82mm mortar over the 120 anyday because it's cheaper, has less pop cost, double the rate of fire, more effective at displacing static positions.

    I would daresay a sniper or flame halftrack would remove that combination from a fortified position quite well. Or, mgs with your own mortars because they can't call in guards with mortar until 2 cp anyways.

  • #248
    3 years ago
    The farther from 1s you go the harder balance is, for example have you faced penals armed with vickers (spec weapon brit commander) or jackson hvap/ firefly with mark target, or zeroing arty with arty flares? Relic cares little about balance outside 1s, and it would be a sad day to lose viable 1s commanders for the sake of synergy in modes that reduce/remove intentional shortcoming in strats (in this case being huge bleed potential if poorly executed).

    Dont get me wrong, i prefer team games (shit shows for the win) but its by not balanceable because there is an endless combo of things that can happen
  • #249
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Yeh I Have seen the penals with vickers, its hilarious, especially the racket they make when there are mutliple squads all with 2 each.

    Anyway, I admit I prefer twos to 1v1s just for the unpredictability. But I usually find them pretty balanced, however I am not talking about getting ganged by two players at once, I mean more to say, that facing a single Sov with this build is incredibly hard to counter. It was brought up on the balance questionnaire for a reason.

    It's not so much the mortar fire as the smoke, it shuts down mg play. Penals run rampant, and guards completely prevent flame-ht and 222.

    Though I do find penals a little too good, I'm not saying its ridiculously op and should be nerfed etc. I just find its a little too good a combo on a commander, as there isn't a single strategy that it can't happily counter.

  • #250
    3 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited November 2016

    @AceOfTitanium said:
    @newshatterhand So you only build cons for the snare? I personally find cons a pretty ok anti infantry unit, you have to flank, use them in numbers and always use cover thats the problem, players nowadays are just used to blobing and going around the map not using cover (usf and ukf fault) and then they whine saying that the unit is too weak and other units are overpowered.

    Pretty much yes. The reason to chose cons over another unit to build is mainly their snare and merge. Note though that there is a difference in chosing it because of the snare and only using it for that. I also use cons for flanking crew weapons, scouting and to do normal fighting.

    Though for most of these AI roles bascially all other squads are better, and this has been so for a very long while, there is a reason maxim spam used to be the thing before penals got good. Though the snair is very important to deal with vehicles and merge is super usefull especially on crew weapons and to preserve some mp. Cons thematically seem mainline infantery but actually serve more a support role, unless upgraded with ppsh.

    As far as I can tell not using cover and blobbing are not occuring that much in 1v1s. Ocassionally yes, but that is imo fine and can be dealt with. I hardly play/see any games where blobbing is the go to strat the whole game long.

    Not using cover and coming from multiple directions seems to be the more desirable strat for bigger fights against ost though since they rely a lot on supressing with mg42s and paks. Which is not a bad thing, it is just how the game works. You just need to keep moving to get close a enough to the mg to stop it from being able to reposition. And even then houses and sometimes ocassional cover that is in the right spot are used once you are close enough or already pushed away the mg.

  • #251
    3 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited November 2016

    @Farra13 said:
    It is expensive, but it counters and outperforms anything early game as the commander basically cancels the weaknesses of sov t1. The mortar prevents mg play, the guards counter the light vehicles, leaving penals to run rampant and walk all over the volks and grens, and this combo uses no fuel, so the t70 comes out lightning quick.

    Honestly, it seems just about every Sov player in 2v2 uses this combo, that or the reserve army commander.

    At the moment I have no answer to beating it, I consider myself a good Ostheer player, but aside from crutching on a pair of snipers, there is very little you can currently do to fight against this commander.

    My suggestion would be to replace the heavy mortar with incendiary barrage, that gives the axis team breathing room to use support weapons.

    222 vs guards can still work. Guards cannot really chase it since the setup time for their ptrs is too long for that. So the 222 can easily kite a guard squad and bleed some mp and then be repaired later.

    Or better even if you spot one guard squad drive away from it and use the 222 to push the other side of the map. If the soviet wants to prevent that then he needs 2 guard squads already so another 330mp investment.

    Build pzgrens they start a bit meh but they are absolutely smashing at vet3 and their grenade also is one of the meanest things sometimes wiping even a 6 men squad in one go, regardless of their vet.

    mg42s works early game, when sov goes penal/guards they will have less squads then when they also get cons. Also they are more expensive so the mgs will bleed more mp on them. Downside if they do flank they work a lot better than cons. Once a mortar is build the mgs need to be used more conservativly but can still work.

Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.