[UKF] [ALL] British Emplacement Counterplay

#1
2 years ago
Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
edited November 2016 in Balance Feedback

Hello guys, I am a long term coh 2 player, starting from its release way back in 2013. But I am new to the forums, something I have kept a close eye on since the official ones were reopened.

I'l be honest, I'm not sure if this topic is for the balance area or the general discussion.

What I want to discuss today is the Brit emplacements, they are such a controversial and awkward feature that the faction is built around. I believe they are what makes the brits so hard to balance, with their current state of a poor early game leading into either a complete inability to recover or an unstoppable snowball due to their incredible late game.

Counterplay is such a crucial part of Coh2 gameplay, with emplacements lacking any hardcounters outside massed arty or waiting on an early medium.

My suggestion is this, Brace remains in its current state. Allowing an ability to defend from arty, tank fire and small arms. However certain weapon types should be able to infilict full damage despite Brace.

Things such as: Flamethrowers, Grenades ( with bonus damage like they do to ambient structures), certain offmaps like stuka dive bomb ( that we all know needs changes), the Brumbar ( becuase its a siege unit) and other certain units and abilites that could be decided later on.

This allows players to force the Brits to actively defend their positions rather that being made to circle around to other parts of the map until later on in the game, or engage in a long and drawn out siege that is both boring and frustrating.

Of course this would be a significant nerf, forcing adjustments to the Brits early game units and pricing. But I do believe this would be the right step in fixing what is something people really dislike about their playstyle.

Thank you for taking your time to read my wall of text.

«13456714

Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago

    I appreciate the idea and it might not be a bad one technically. But the change would be a big one, which you already caught - something I doubt Relic will invest time into because they probably don't have the resources. Emplacements can be cancerous though.

    In my opinion, however cheesy and easy they are, they technically have enough counters in terms of using all your units together in an attack. And can just be dead weights when players rely too heavily on them in the common scenario you portrayed. Once braced I send all counters in, particularly the flamer halftrack (which I now buy instead of 222's for MG's and blobs).

    Yes your thread is a balance one (with 'problem' and 'solution' so it's in the correct category.

  • #3
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Yeh I understand what you mean, it would require a large undertaking to make such an adjustment. I just find that Brits are almost forced to rely on them, leaving the designers to ensure they are powerful enough to be worthwhile, thus making them a real frustration to deal with. This means they have to limit the early game units in the brits roster so they dont overpower a player with both strong emplacements and a force that can match the early units of the Okw and Ostheer.

  • #4
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    This would essentially ruin the entire UKF faction and it's design, as emplacements would become completely un-viable, you might as well just remove them entirely.

  • #5
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,987
    Both the pit and the Bofors are too durable for their damage potential. Cut HP by 200 for both emplacements and slap a 40 mun cost on brace. See how that goes.
  • #6
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @MCMartel. I don't think it would ruin them, it simply allows viable counters outside of trying to snipe them off with at/raketen, spamming mass mortars or waiting on a medium. If such a change were possilbe, it would also mean they could rebalance the brits early game roster to compensate, as they really do struggle to pull ahead agianst both Okw and Ostheer, hence the low win rates at 1v1.

  • #7
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Hingie, I don't know if a straight up nerf would be fair. Brits struggle enough early to mid, they definitly need a rebalance to take away their ridiculous late game and transfer some of that power to their early. Something that can't be done while the bofors/ mortar are so powerful.

  • #8
    2 years ago
    @hingie what are you talking about the pit being to durable? Its a 400mp investment OF COURSE it should be abe to survive a sturmtiger rocket...

    To the OP i like it.flame might need like 50% damage vs 100 just because we remeber brit launch and how a single flame hit was a doomed emplacment...
  • #9
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    It it were to happen, then yes, adjustments would have to be made to what weapons do what damage during brace. I; alongside what I am sure are many players, hate fighting emplacements. Giving them an actual counter would do alot to alieviate the stale gameplay they bring by forcing a drawn out siege.

    It would mean a definite rebalance of the brit early game, but I do believe that it would do alot to prevent their faction being so hit or miss, as in my experience the brits either fall off in the first ten minutes and never really recover or snowball into an unstoppable force. I am of course talking in terms of 1v1 and 2v2, as they are fine in team games where allies can carry them through the first part of the match.

  • #10
    2 years ago

    I like the idea of certain weapons getting a bonus damage (or less of a penalty) when attacking emplacements. I think direct fire eg. flamethrowers, at guns, schrecks, grenades should get a bonus damage over arty damage. I'll let someone more qualified to work out how much of a bonus, cuz the mortar pit can be much of a liability as an asset when an axis player knows how to assault one. The Bofors however, is still a pain, but can be taken down with a combined effort.

    As with all emplacments, timing is crucial due to Brace and more importantly its cooldown. As Ostheer, easiest way to deal with a mortar pit is to rush for a 222 (to be safe) or a flame halftrack, attack the pit, get it to brace, and wait for the brace to wear off (or attack the vickers that was supposed to be guarding it) and then attack it. Bofors is a different story: paks (attack ground to outrange it, use pios or 222 to spot for it if there are no shotblockers and u don't need to attack ground, guaranteeing a hit every shot.), mortars, and better yet, mortar halftrack with incendiary which will do great damage regardless of brace. Stugs are great for these two emplacements.

    For OKW, its more difficult to deal with. Volk nades, schrecks, a few leigs. Options are quite limited especially when the first two require the Brit player to be stupid enough not to be protecting it with a vickers which is almost never the case. However, your units are more mobile and therefore, attention to which target the pit is shooting at is crucial.

  • #11
    2 years ago
    Am I the only one that thinks bofors rate of fire is broken? Is should be half the rate of fire it is right now, the animation cant even keep up! And brace shouldnt be so strong or shouldnt take to long to wear off. Those are the only problems I see with brit emplacements atm.
  • #12
    2 years ago
    Oh and the fact that brit emp cant be de-crewed and the pak 43 is so easly de-crewed is a bit silly dont you think?
  • #13
    2 years ago
    @AceOfTitanium have you compared costs and population requirements of the 17lb and the pak? Cause iirc the 17lb costs something like 70 fuel and takes up 20 pop (1/5 of the limit).
  • #14
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    No, emplacements are easily counterable right now. Use mortars, it's not rocket science. Use artillery to defeat emplacements, or vehicles. Heck, you can kil a bofors with a couple of raketnwerfers if you're lucky, so stop complaining, this really is a L2P issue.

  • #16
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel. I'm not sure how you decided this was a learn to play issue, I personally have no problems with emplacements. I just find that they stagnate gameplay, COH has always been about counterplay, doesn't is make sense that emplacements (a building), are given an effective counter?

    Sniping them with AT, or spamming mortars is both a cheesy and awkward way to destroy them. While waiting on mediums means that the Ostheer wont have a reliable way to counter until after twelve minutes, OKW even further ahead unless they spam Stuka's.

    All it would mean is players would be forced to protect them, rather than plopping down a bofors/mortar combo and locking down half the map on a 2v2 for an extended quarter/third of the match.

    To compensate for what would be an effective nerf, they could change the pricing of some of the brits early units, hopefully buffing their early game, which is the area they suffer so much with currently.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    @thedarkarmadillo What I meant is that wehr is the second most defensive faction if the player wants to play defensively but they cant right now because they just get bombarded and de-crewed by mortars or arti and then the allies take the weapons for themselfes and gain free defensive weapons for a whike at least until the wehr player bombards them and takes the weapons back and so on, thats kinda frustrating if you put yourself in the wehr player position. I'm not saying to give wehr brace just make the guns more reliable but thats in another topic. For this tipic my opinion is that brace shoudnt take so long to wear off, if it took just 5/10sec less time to wear off it would be a step in the right direction.
  • #18
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited November 2016
    @Farra13 Brits are supposed to suffer early game and be the strongest allied faction late game, thats how the faction is designed. Go check the faction comparison by relic and you will have an idea on how the developers want each faction to play off.
  • #19
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @AceOfTitanium Yeh, I do understand that. But currently they are just too weak early, look at their 1v1 win rates. Ostheer and Okw stomp on them, and considering both of those factions aren't exactly in a great state currently, it says alot about how Brits just can't cope without a team mate to prop them up for the first ten minutes. After that, they just snow ball, having access to some of the best mainline infantry, the best two mediums, the best tank destroyer (that's my opnion), and their high command point abilities that are generally a step above everyone else. I just feel rebalancing their early game and taking away emplacements as such a crutch would do wonders to their playstyle.

  • #20
    2 years ago

    It's a problem for Ostheer but it's a HUGE problem for OKW. Ost has some options for indirect fire whereas OKW has the LeiG (lol) to counter them. While you're investing on trying to knock it out on some maps, they're teching and getting ahead of you. It's not as big of a problem on maps with some room, but the mortar play is obnoxious if they reach half of the damn map. It's really difficult to get enough firepower to destroy them in certain geographies and circumstances.

    But I would be in favor of some sort of charge to brace structures so it isn't such a mindless reaction to it being attacked. If it had a nice munitions charge to it or something I would be in favor of it. It being completely free and making them immune to kinetic damage from explosions, fire, bomb strikes, is just stupid. But OKW struggles seriously with well entrenched Brits because they lack the tools to win these early engagements at times.

    Too much MP is invested in a UKF/OKW matchup for what UKF spends on said emplacement to what OKW has to spend to counter it.

  • #21
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    So, using mortars to destroy emplacements is "cheesy" or "awkward" how is using artillery for it's main purpose, to bombard things, cheesy or awkward, this is ludicrous. OST does fine vs brits, and mortar halftrack hard counters basically the entire UKF emplacement set.

  • #22
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @MCMartel Using artillery to bombard things is definitly its purpose, I agree, you are correct there. But Mortars can't really be compared to full on artillery, they require a significant amount of time to destroy an emplacement, not to mention a mortar pit excels at counterfire, requiring at least two mortars/leigs, plus a halftrack/reinforcement point just to sustain them. Its a horrid stagnant style of gameplay, sitting their palying arty wars.

    The Leig admittedly can be quite potent, but in the aftermath your left with a unit that is lackluster at best against anything but a fixed target. Something that becomes a deadweight that the Okw player was forced to invest his already precious resources in.

    You seem to be under the impression that i'm saying emplacements are 'overpowered', which is not what I'm trying to say.

    I'm trying to get across the fact that the are poorly implemented, sitting outisde the standard Coh formula of dedicated counters for each type of unit. My suggestion of allowing certain weapons to ignore brace also makes note of certain buffs to the brit early roster pricing to compensate for what would essentially be a nerf, as you can't disagree that the reason they have such low win rates on 1v1 is they struggle to hold their own with such few units and expensive upgrades against the Ostheer and Okw during the early game.

    Anyway, its hardly going to destroy the faction if flame weapons and a couple of abilities specialize in taking down emplacements, it just means the brits will actually have to defend and support them. You know like every other faction has to with their infantry and tanks. Currently they just plop down a bofors/mortar pit and lock down a considerable portion of the map, then they just wonder of to fight on the other side knowing it will take a player a large micro tax and considerable effort and time to eliminate them.

    It's not remotely enjoyable to deal with them currently, and on some maps its damn right cancerous when a mortar pit covers so much it.

  • #23
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    1. You only need 2 mortars. And 2 mortars ought to be needed to counter a 400mp thing.
    2. There are dedicated counters. Mortars counter emplacements. Mediums counter bofors/mortars. Infantry with rockets counter 17pdr (if anyone used 17pdr). Bofors coutners infantry and light vehicles but loses to mortars and mediums. Mortar kills infantry but loses to any vehicles. It fits perfectly.
  • #24
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,029
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel mortars do not counter emplacements. ISGs do. Mortars don't.

    Mediums come too late.

  • #25
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Mortars do just fine. What are you talking about?

  • #26
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,029
    Im talking about mortars not doing fine because they dont?
  • #27
    2 years ago

    @Lazarus said:
    Im talking about mortars not doing fine because they dont?

    With mortars it takes some time to destroy an mortar pit but thats the purpose, you dont want to be able to instantly destroy a brit emplacement that would be op against brits.
    The thing is, for you to be able to destroy an brit emplacement you need at least 2 mortars or 2 Le.Ig 18 (which btw needs a price reduction because they are too expensive for what they do [330 manpower]) and always change position between barrages otherwise the brit emplacement will kill you. The main problem with brit emplacement is the fact that brace takes too long to wear off, recharges quite fast and when active makes the emplacement basically take no damage.

  • #28
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,029

    I don't want Wehrs mortars to be the counter to the mortar pit anyway. That just promotes these stupid arty wars we've currently got going.

    That's why flamepios and flame halftracks should still do 50% damage to braced pits. You don't change braces effectiveness vs indirect fire at all so it still helps you deal with arty spam, it'll still dislodge MGs and infantry and ATGs, but it will be vulnerable if you don't actively defend it.

  • #29
    2 years ago

    @Lazarus said:
    I don't want Wehrs mortars to be the counter to the mortar pit anyway. That just promotes these stupid arty wars we've currently got going.

    I didnt say mortars were the only counter to emplacements.

    That's why flamepios and flame halftracks should still do 50% damage to braced pits. You don't change braces effectiveness vs indirect fire at all so it still helps you deal with arty spam, it'll still dislodge MGs and infantry and ATGs, but it will be vulnerable if you don't actively defend it.

    Thats a great idea, brace would protect emplacements from arti and explosions in general but flames and other things like grenades would still do damage so this way the brit player has to make an eford to protect the emplacements instead of making a bofor and two mortar pits with maybe an at gun and sit all game bracing when the attack becomes a bit overwhelming.

  • #31
    2 years ago
    IndesdriIndesdri Posts: 16
    edited November 2016

    I absolutely despised the UKF emplacements for a very long time. It feels like hitting my head against a wall more often than not, quite frustrating depending on the circumstances. Wasn't until I bought the UKF at Halloween (to give back to the community that had trolled me hard with emplacements for months) that I realised they weren't as overpowered as I had imagined. I've exclusively played 'Sim City' and have some thoughts:

    It mostly comes down to the player. Emplacements punish defensive players. Explains why I have so much trouble against them. I've lost mortar pits to Volks blobs even with 'Brace' and 'Stand Fast', just takes an aggressive player to force a brace and render the emplacement useless. That's less of an issue with the Bofors, but it really only exists to provide cover for the mortar pit, but unless it's a stones throw away it'll be constantly barraged by enemy mortars and or IeIG. Once in place it may force a retreat on a unit that walks in to range or kill a retreating unit, but beyond that I find it's primary purpose is to provide suppression/pinning with the garrison/vet ability. Late game it becomes increasingly difficult to defend, and you're glued to an area of the map that often the enemy will ignore and/or harass.

    Whilst I don't think the emplacements aren't the end of the world, 'Hammer' tactics potentially are. The Comet is so versatile it can fulfill the offensive and defensive roles needed whilst maintaining emplacements and keeping some RE in reserve for emergency emplacement/vehicle repairs. On the reverse, 'Anvil' isn't as potent; the repair ability is fantastic, but I find the Churchill slightly obsolete, I already have 2-3 near indestructible emplacements. I'd rather have a Comet or two to counter attack when I'm forced to Brace than send in a Churchill to attempt to draw their fire and soak some damage.

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