[UKF] [ALL] British Emplacement Counterplay

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  • #212
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited December 2016

    @MisterBastard
    its not 120 munitions for FHT, its 90.

    besides if its an urban map its great for the FHT. it can shoot through buildings.

  • #213
    2 years ago

    @Beardedragon said:
    @MisterBastard
    its not 120 munitions for FHT, its 90.

    Typo i always think about schreks...

  • #214
    2 years ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,297 mod
    edited December 2016

    FHT are brilliant for Urban maps, it can shoot through buildings with attack ground, and clear garrisons in instants.

    /edit: Besides, it's not recommended to keep shooting at a braced emplacement when an enemy army is heading your way.

  • #215
    2 years ago

    Well ofc you brake your focus from the mortar pit when the enemy returns.

    Saying "dont shoot at brace" is like saying "doh, you always have to flank"... whishful thinking ...its not that the Brit will say "oh alright we wil postpone our counter attack so you can return and destroy our mortar pit, while we drink morning tee carry on chaps..."

  • #216
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,984

    So. Let me concentrate what people have ascertained in this thread to be a hard counter to emplacements: flame weapons. Ok. Cool. Not let's juxtaposition the fact that it was also said Flamer Pioneers are not effective. How many units per faction does that leave to act as hypothetical hard counter?

    2 for Wehr. The FHT and the Mortar HT.

    2 for OKW. The Volksgrenadiers Flamer grenade and the Flame Hetzer.

    And that is including doctrinal units! So. I don't know about you, but that doesn't look very good. Every axis factions has, if we apply the aforementioned criteria, one supposed hard counter to emplacements, although I am somewhat hesitant to call a Grenade a counter, but whatever. Grenade, FHT and MHT require rather heavy munition investments to work.

    It's not what I would call an acceptable situation.

  • #217
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    How about just using mortars to counter emplacements, like what they're there for, a shot or two and they're braced, then attack during cooldown. Or use vehicles. Virtually any light vehicle will crush a mortar pit, and even a single mortar will crush a bofors since it's barrage got nerfed. If they have a bofors and a mortar pit, that's 4+ squads worth of investment with the side-tech and the engineers, so that's very little else to field army-wise.

  • #218
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited December 2016

    Just because flame weaons hardcounters emplacements, doesnt mean you are unable to deal with them with other units.
    (maybe the wehr mortar and LeiG should be given an incendiary round?). i do agree with you though, that the OKW could use another source of fire than just the grandes from volks to deal with emplacements.

    Emplacements are a mix of being a unit, yet also a building. they're units in the way they have a "retreat" button in the form of brace, but they're buildings in that they cant move so they need the hp to survive, and they take population cap. they were given fire as a hardcounter but probably not too many hardcounters due to this mix of being a building, yet also a unit type.

    someone on this thread i cant remember who, said they were hard countered by artillery like rocket trucks.

    another person also said that many of the things i suggested, like early luchs, were not counters because it took over one minute to kill the emplacement.

    lets put those two statements together from those people (again, cant remember who but i think the first one was you @Hingie and the other was MisterBastard).

    how long does it take a rocket truck to kill a schwer? way more than a minute given the cooldown on the rocket truck, so according to misterBastard, that removes rocket trucks as a hard counter to schwers. then i can buy two of em, but even then it wouldnt take less than one minute. the Schwer can also be repaired inbetween the shots. unless you're making an almost pointblank rocket truck shot, i doubt 2 rocket trucks could take out a schwer in one go.

    unlike british emplacements, Schwers dont really take any real damage from fire sources if im not mistaken. and Unlike the british emplacements, the schwer and what ever OKW base doesnt actually have a hard counter. they have plenty of ways to get destroyed by, but no dedicated hard counter where the british actually have one. (they take no pop cap, so they dont need hardcounters because they aint units).

    the point is, they're both buildings, they dont move. the Schwer does not need a hardcounter and the brits with pop on theirs, just need to keep the one they already have. plenty of ways can be used to kill them anyway.

    emplacements are vulnerable to artillery weapons too you know.

    given their pop on emplacements, any given AXIS army will have more units/tanks in their army than the british, if he invested his population cap in maybe a mortar, bofos and an AT emplacement. the more emplacements he buy the more you start outnumbering him. sure the emplacements aid in battle, but not if you fight outside their kill zone.

  • #219
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited December 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    How about just using mortars to counter emplacements, like what they're there for, a shot or two and they're braced, then attack during cooldown. Or use vehicles. Virtually any light vehicle will crush a mortar pit, and even a single mortar will crush a bofors since it's barrage got nerfed. If they have a bofors and a mortar pit, that's 4+ squads worth of investment with the side-tech and the engineers, so that's very little else to field army-wise.

    Except every single example you gave are either not true, or blatlant exggerations.

    How about just using mortars to counter emplacements, like what they're there for

    Mortar pit counters mortars for the 100th time, unless the Brit player is braindead...even if he forgets to use "brace" royal engies fix them in no time, and this is without counting in the fact mortar pits counterbarrages mortars with ease...to make thing even more frustrating, mobile axis mortars firing at any building/emplacements nearmiss so many times i bet they went through SWs "stormtroop school of aiming".

    Virtually any light vehicle will crush a mortar pit

    Sure...and the proof of it is ...where ...

    Please dont use absolutes...those dont make your arguments stronger, on the contray i could drag you down just by mentioning the kubelwagen...

    If they have a bofors and a mortar pit, that's 4+ squads worth of investment with the side-tech and the engineers, so >that's very little else to field army-wise.

    This is again simply not true, unless the brit player decides to go for both ASAP, ignoring the rest of his forces, and not gradually...

    You also imply those emplacements dont give you anything again this is simply wrogn on so many levels...th e bofors locks down a portion of the map with littel effort untill tanks arrive, and the mortar pit projects constant arty support inside a large zone...without the fear of decrwing, able to soak up immense damage with brace.

  • #220
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,984
    edited December 2016
    A mortar pit has 700 HP. It can take 9 full hits from a mortar before being destroyed. If your opponent knows what he's doing he is not going to pop brace just because 2 mortars are shelling it. The counterfire from the Pit will eliminate or force a retreat on those mortars before itself suffering too heavy damage. And if things don't go so well it can then STILL use brace and hold out for sappers to arrive or something. Mortars don't counter emplacements. They can fight them, damage them but not counter them. Especially not the Pit.

    And your arguments are disregarded because they are weak and offer no solutions since you only propose measures that are obviously not efficient or feasible
  • #221
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,595
    edited December 2016

    @Hingie said:
    A mortar pit has 700 HP. It can take 9 full hits from a mortar before being destroyed.

    Incorrect.
    Emplacements take 50% more damage from flame and explosive weapons, which means it needs 6 hits. Its hit box size ensures high accuracy even without the LOS on it.

    If your opponent knows what he's doing he is not going to pop brace just because 2 mortars are shelling it. The counterfire from the Pit will eliminate or force a retreat on those mortars before itself suffering too heavy damage.

    Incorrect again, its highly RNG dependent, 2 ost mortars not clumped up together can force brace very quickly due to rate of fire and accuracy of the barrage against large pit hitbox, if pit won't decrew one mortar within first 2 volleys, it NEEDS to brace to avoid destruction at which point brit player needs to send infantry to clear the mortars or face losing emplacement as brace won't save it.

    And if things don't go so well it can then STILL use brace and hold out for sappers to arrive or something. Mortars don't counter emplacements. They can fight them, damage them but not counter them. Especially not the Pit.

    Keyword: if things don't go so well.
    However against 2 ost mortars, they usually do.
    In addition, if brit player is forced to repair under mortar barrage, then he is pretty desparate already and risks losing not only pit, but additional 210 mp.

    And your arguments are disregarded because they are weak and offer no solutions since you only propose measures that are obviously not efficient or feasible

    Fight this argument in the attachment(you might need cheat commands mod to view it, or maybe not, just see-I have also gave the pit a headstart on mortars, so it fired first before I turned FoW on again):

  • #222
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,018
    edited December 2016

    Point of curiosity there @Katitof - were you using barrage with the pit?

  • #223
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,595

    @Lazarus said:
    Point of curiosity there @Katitof - were you using barrage with the pit?

    Pit was used by AI, it was on auto attack - the part that is claimed as OP in this thread against mortars.

  • #224
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Imo for those who still think Brit emplacements are sim to win, play more Brit games! :)
    You will experience how they are easily countered and are more for defense when you are ahead.
    Try a simcity build and see it gets crushed by same level foes.

    Right now Brit emplacements are rather balance, there is risk reward to consider before you build one. Unlike early days where Brit are advanced cancer trolling with the emplacements.

  • #225
    2 years ago

    I want to see the mortar pit barred from being built in the base. On smaller maps, its a big deal, esp Crossroads.

  • #226
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,984
    edited January 2017

    @Katitof said:
    Incorrect.
    Emplacements take 50% more damage from flame and explosive weapons, which means it needs 6 hits. Its hit box size ensures high accuracy even without the LOS on it.

    Actually I am correct. I did some testing of my own and found out that a hit of a Mortar on the Mortar Pit will only cause 80 damage. The Health monitor of the cheat mod proved very useful in that. And Im talking about hits full centre. Counting the hits disregarding the possibly buggy monitor yields the same result. 9 full hits are needed to destroy one unbraced mortar pit. Not sure where you got your information from, but its false. They get increased damage from flames but not from explosive weapons.

    In return, the Pit generally needed about 1-4 salvos to wipe the mortar team, 2-3 being the most common, 1 and 4 being uncommon, more than 4 being very rare.

    Incorrect again, its highly RNG dependent, 2 ost mortars not clumped up together can force brace very quickly due to rate of fire and accuracy [...]

    The Rate of fire from the mortars is not very high anymore. Its about the same as the Pit. The times of the fast-firing Wehr mortar are over.

  • #227
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,595

    I've provided you a replay.

    You're arguing against it right now.

  • #228
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,984
    edited January 2017

    I am. Because a mortar does only 80 damage versus a pit. Everyone is invited to test it too. It does not do 120 damage as you claimed. It does not only take 6 hits to be destroyed as you claimed, but 9. If you wish I can conjure up a replay, too, showing just that.

    Actually, dont bother requesting. Here it is.

  • #229
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,806
    Stats.hu seems to back up the 80 damage as the emplacment modifiers on 1. Same as the lefh and leig as well as the werfer and walking stuka. Perhaps the info is out of date but thats what the resourse i checked said.
  • #230
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,984
    edited January 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Stats.hu seems to back up the 80 damage as the emplacment modifiers on 1. Same as the lefh and leig as well as the werfer and walking stuka. Perhaps the info is out of date but thats what the resourse i checked said.

    It does correlate with what I have witnessed. There is no damage multiplier versus Mortar Pits for any indirect fire weapons as far as I could discern.

  • #231
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,595

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Stats.hu seems to back up the 80 damage as the emplacment modifiers on 1. Same as the lefh and leig as well as the werfer and walking stuka. Perhaps the info is out of date but thats what the resourse i checked said.

    I've re-checked it myself and stand corrected.

    However, its still undeniable that dual ost mortar hardcounters pit.

  • #232
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993

    @Katitof said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Stats.hu seems to back up the 80 damage as the emplacment modifiers on 1. Same as the lefh and leig as well as the werfer and walking stuka. Perhaps the info is out of date but thats what the resourse i checked said.

    I've re-checked it myself and stand corrected.

    However, its still undeniable that dual ost mortar hardcounters pit.

    Well I wouldn't say a hard hard counter like ISGs

    more like a soft-firm counter, as the pit can counter attack the mortars (unless they changed the ranges)

    the firm part comes in when you space out the 2 mortars decently.

  • #233
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,984

    @Katitof said:
    I've re-checked it myself and stand corrected.

    However, its still undeniable that dual ost mortar hardcounters pit.

    Dont worry. Happens to all of us. I myself was wrong about the 2 wehr mortars versus the Pit. The fare a lot better than I had anticipated. I wouldnt call them a Harcounter, but you can use them and have a decent chance of winning.

    Unrelated but weird: As I was shelling dozens of Pits during my test, I noticed that if you just right-click the Emplacement, a good portion of the shells from the Wehr mortar drop short. about 1/3 to 1/2. When in turn however you attack ground in the middle of the emplacement, almost all of them were hits or near hits.

  • #234
    2 years ago

    Oh perfect thread for this then. Anyone got 50 mins to spare and justify it? I declare mortar emplacements to be OP in my opinion and a very easy way to get out of a sticky situation (i.e no fuel - no aec) and just get back into the game through constant mp bleed.

  • #235
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Oh perfect thread for this then. Anyone got 50 mins to spare and justify it? I declare mortar emplacements to be OP in my opinion and a very easy way to get out of a sticky situation (i.e no fuel - no aec) and just get back into the game through constant mp bleed.

    why would anyone watch a biased video you called Cancer manifest which you probably named the replay in anger after you lost.

    its probably just a learn to play video where you screwed up big time and got owned.

    mortar emplacements are not OP you just need to get better.

  • #236
    2 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited January 2017

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Oh perfect thread for this then. Anyone got 50 mins to spare and justify it? I declare mortar emplacements to be OP in my opinion and a very easy way to get out of a sticky situation (i.e no fuel - no aec) and just get back into the game through constant mp bleed.

    You were actually pretty close to destroying the first mortar a couple of times. One thing you need to watch is not rushing into his base too far without vision. For example the flame HT you had dies to 2 AT shots without achieving anything, that is a huge waste. It could have done a lot, even more so since he went for an AT gun and not for AEC. When you would have used the flame HT to regain territory and then later done a final crush with the mortarHT and flameHT together, using attack ground for the flameHT to shoot over the bushes, you could definitely have gotten it since the mortarHT alone was almost enough already.

    Later in the game the rushes are especially bad to do if you know he got (2x) AT guns and piat infantery, like the chase on the comet with pzIV and tiger. Essentially he has more than double your AT firepower in such engagements and you have a long way to drive back to safety.

    I don't think the mortars are OP since they can be dealt with and that commander is imo even a bit lackluster, however I agree that that commander with brit emplacements is not a nice game mechanic and frustrating to play against. It creates a bit too much all or nothing situations requiring well planned assaults on the mortars which just decide the game on their own. And it is quite a bit easier to micro the defense with mortars than the offense as axis. I would not be opposed to having it removed, but it is probabilly not going to happen. And nerfing it is not necessary since it is more cheese than good.

  • #237
    2 years ago
    @newshatterhand I appreciate your reply. You're right about failed misused flamer but its funny how 'mp starved' ukf are to have that and at gun so easily. You said it - no micro necessary after that point. Just focus on easy comets. No need to worry about constant indirect fire
  • #238
    2 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289

    Remind me why Bofors needs to have 45 range to start with, with self spotting at Vet 1 and more HP than the Churchill or KT at Vet 3. With an optional, free 4x HP multiplier.

    And the thing costs like a 222.

  • #239
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,595

    @Kurfürst said:
    Remind me why Bofors needs to have 45 range to start with, with self spotting at Vet 1 and more HP than the Churchill or KT at Vet 3. With an optional, free 4x HP multiplier.

    And the thing costs like a 222.

    Because it can't retreat, can't run up to you, is supposed to deny area, not just be a nuisance, requires side tech which will lock more useful unit out, hogs pop cap like a medium tank, doesn't bounce anything but a small arms and needs a way to survive off maps given how reliant you are on it if you go for this side tech and playstyle.

    And sight increase is vet2.

    If there is one thing wrong with any emplacement, its 17 pounder fuel and pop cost and OKW flakk everything.

  • #240
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,984
    The power and durability of the Bofors is way above its pay grade. It costs as much as a light vehicle yet annihilates anything short of a tank while being as durable as a heavy. It locks down everythung around itself. No other unit in the game can do that and be so durable while being so cheap. The only saving grace is that most of the time it cant fire back at indirect fire.
  • #241
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Giving it a firing arc would be a good way to open up the ability to flank a bofors, that and perhaps making it less accurate against infantry as currently it melts a squad as fast as you can hit retreat, I can't count the number of times I've moved past a sight blocker and had an entire squad wiped in a seconds.

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