[Wehr] Rework for their Mainline Infantry.

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  • #62
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Yeh powercreep has basically ruined the Wehr late game due to their terrible armor performance and poor scaling infantry, it was the main area they were orginally supposed to shine....

    I think in terms of their infantry it has to go one of two ways.

    1. Research in either t3 or t4 at the headquarters to improve grens and p-grens to allow them to stay relevant late game.
    2. Introduce an elite infantry for t4, I suggested earlier moving p-grens into an elite role with buffs and using assualt grenadiers to fill the gap in t2 for offensive infantry. Because I can't imagine relic would create any new models/animations at this stage in the game's life.

    That combined with spacing, cost and vet reworks are the only two ways I can see them fixing the Wehr in their current state.

  • #63
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    "Terrible armor"? Is that a joke? Stugs make mincemeat of virtually any armor for basically nothing. Panthers pen and flank ant allied heavy that dares to get onto the field, and the brumbar is a good blob-punisher. All it needs is a slight buff to the P4 and Ostwind, which need, respectively, a little more armor/slightly cheaper and less scatter respectively.

  • #65
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    What full rework? The soviets got one of their units, the Penal Squad, changed, not the whole faction, what are you talking about?
    P4 is fine it's tougher than t-34, it just needs a cost decrease to be on the same level as Cromwell, about 110 fuel or so, or a bit of an armor increase.
    Ostwind could use a bit of a scatter decrease but it's overall not terrible just needs better accuracy.
    Panther is fine, maybe a slight cost decrease, it's incredibly fast, blows away armor, and has incredible armor.

  • #67
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    "Terrible armor"? Is that a joke? Stugs make mincemeat of virtually any armor for basically nothing.

    "Terrible armor" means that the armor of the unit is low not that the units itself is generally bad...
    And yea stug has lower armor even than T-34/76 so it pretty bad...

  • #68
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,652

    How did you went from mainline infantry to late game armored combat again?

  • #69
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    There you go, moved the topic to a seperate thread to stop discussio being derailed.

    https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/243333/wehr-quality-of-tanks/p1?new=1

  • #70
    3 years ago

    the only "rework" they need is to spread out more to avoid dying to grenades and aoe that often.

    they are otherwise fine.

  • #71
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Beardedragon said:
    the only "rework" they need is to spread out more to avoid dying to grenades and aoe that often.

    they are otherwise fine.

    I'm sorry but I completely disagree, Ostheer have the worst infantry out of all five factions. They have zero staying power, no access to any doctrinal elite infantry to compensate, poor vet scaling, the smallest squads, awful reinforcement cost.

    That alongside the powercreep of the allied factions, mainly due to obscene vet rewards, dual lmg's and huge amounts of indirect fire make Ostheer infantry play non-existent by late-game.

  • #72
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Farra13 said:

    @Beardedragon said:
    the only "rework" they need is to spread out more to avoid dying to grenades and aoe that often.

    they are otherwise fine.

    I'm sorry but I completely disagree, Ostheer have the worst infantry out of all five factions. They have zero staying power, no access to any doctrinal elite infantry to compensate, poor vet scaling, the smallest squads, awful reinforcement cost.

    That alongside the powercreep of the allied factions, mainly due to obscene vet rewards, dual lmg's and huge amounts of indirect fire make Ostheer infantry play non-existent by late-game.

    no they dont. the soviets do.

    for the most part penals or call in infantry is being used as a substitute for the conscripts due to their lack of late game weapons to carry them late game.

    they are just sponges to take hits and throwing bombs + merging.

    they have no damage potential.

    Grens can still damage reliably if they can avoid being butchered, hence why they need to spread out as it tends to be some sort of aoe form that kills them rather than enemy infantry.

    you pay 240 manpower for grens. why would they be able to beat tommies or riflemen in a straight fight? both of these cost 280. that wouldnt make sense. Wehrmacht draws a line and moves his soldiers accordingly, either extending that line forward or backward depending on what happens. thats what wehrmacht is good at.

    the conscripts need as much of a redesign as the grens do then, because just running in with conscripts to be free experience as they often end up being, really doesnt cut it, in the same way that running in with grens to get 'rofl mortared' doesnt either.

    its not all about mainline infantry versus mainline infantry, its as much about faction design versus faction design.

    Grens are alright up to mid game where riflemen/tommies gets upgraded, then they fall behind. in return, however, they dont pay for being allowed to use weapons, grenades nor AT bombs and they upgrade out in the field, allied nations dont. they get the best hand held AT weapons and the strongest tanks in the game (along with OKW).

    if your grenadiers dies or retreats, due to how Wehr was made, your line does not fall at all if you've played properly. your MGs hold their own, your AT guns, tanks and Mortars does too.

    If USF riflemen dies, or gets retreated, their entire army practically crumbles, hence why the riflemen are better.

    conscripts are shit hence why they rely on call in soldiers or penals. and i mean shit in a sense that in the late game they cant really do anything on their own, a bit in the same sense that the grenadiers cant either. both units are reduced to support units by late game, with conscripts soaking up some damage, and the grens dealing some support fire (they still deal good damage even if they cant take hits).

    again its not about grens versus allied nations core infantry because after the mid game, you are really not supposed to spearhead any sort of engagements with grens, you spearhead with tanks.

    allied nations spearhead with infantry, not with tanks for the most part hence the change in power.

  • #73
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Grens and conscripts are both underpowered, I made a thread about this, but all it turned into was people flaming me saying '"CONSCRIPT'S AREN'T UP AT ALL, HOW DARE YOU TALK ABOUT SOMETHING OTHER THAN GRENS!!!!!!111ONE" so I'm beginning to think there's a large group of people who are uninterested in anything but having a persecution complex about playing axis factions.

    Now as to fixing grens. As I've said, their DPS and utility are excellent, especally for their cost, their problem is that their vet 1 is bad, their spacing is terrible, and I'm curious what people think about a bonus to RA while in cover or a decrease to reinforce costs, maybe down to 27-28?

  • #74
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    Grens and conscripts are both underpowered, I made a thread about this, but all it turned into was people flaming me saying '"CONSCRIPT'S AREN'T UP AT ALL, HOW DARE YOU TALK ABOUT SOMETHING OTHER THAN GRENS!!!!!!111ONE" so I'm beginning to think there's a large group of people who are uninterested in anything but having a persecution complex about playing axis factions.

    Stop playing the "righteous victim card " please...just a week ago, page one, you claimed Grens are fine and all OST players should "suck it up and L2P" with HMGs in combination, and then proceeded to bash ppl for even writing down ideas on how fix grens.

    All I red last few weeeks on the topics of Grens and/or Cons is how they are bad, but cons still have some use. Grens however are nothing more than a manpower and population cap sinkhole...

  • #75
    3 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    Improved spacing is nice and all, but it won't stop allied Infantry to waltz over them with impunity as the game goes on. It won't stop them from being absolutely inferior to infantry that is not that much more expensive. He'll, it won't stop them from having to buy an upgrade only to be on par with unupgraded allied infantry.

    Also... with which vehicle exactly is Wehr supposed to spearhead? You mean the laughable Ostwind or the chappy Pz IV? Or the AT focused somewhat fragile Stug? Either way, only works as long as the enemy has not got himself some AT.
  • #76
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Hingie said:
    Improved spacing is nice and all, but it won't stop allied Infantry to waltz over them with impunity as the game goes on. It won't stop them from being absolutely inferior to infantry that is not that much more expensive. He'll, it won't stop them from having to buy an upgrade only to be on par with unupgraded allied infantry.

    Also... with which vehicle exactly is Wehr supposed to spearhead? You mean the laughable Ostwind or the chappy Pz IV? Or the AT focused somewhat fragile Stug? Either way, only works as long as the enemy has not got himself some AT.

    spearhead with Panthers dude. Panthers are pretty damn duable, at least more so than T34s or Shermans. And unless an allied player uses a dedicated tank destroyer then most regular allied tanks will start bouncing shells off the Panther anyway, adding to their durbility.

    but sure during the midgame use the Panzer 4s. i usually always buy two of them and why wouldnt i? they have more armor than T34s so they bounce more shells, and given how the wehrmacht is made i can always buy AT guns. playing soviets or USF? you might have locked yourself out of AT guns unless you wanna backtrack, if you didnt go that specific tier.

    and why should the grens who cost 240 be on par with tommies or riflemen that cost 280 and is designed differently than the grens? that would not make sense.

    grens dont fill the same role as USF riflemen, if anything they fill the same role as conscripts in the late game, which is purely a support unit by then. grens support the army with bombs and offense power, conscripts support the army with bombs and defense. as i already mentioned earlier, if your grens dies, your army does not crumble, it stays. your AT guns and MGs and mortars can hold their own with your tanks. Wehrmacht does not NEED super strong core infantry.

    i dont understand what all the hate for the grens is about i find them to be a very enjoyable unit that works perfectly well with the faction as whole with the ONE single point being that they need more spacing. they die way too easy to explosives and aoe, but thats basically it. they deal fine damage and support the wehrmacht army easily. they dont even need to get close, they can fire their grenades off at range, so theres rarely any reason for them to even leave cover.

    you are exaggerating just how "bad" the grens are in terms of combat ability and general usage.

  • #77
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    Grens and conscripts are both underpowered, I made a thread about this, but all it turned into was people flaming me saying '"CONSCRIPT'S AREN'T UP AT ALL, HOW DARE YOU TALK ABOUT SOMETHING OTHER THAN GRENS!!!!!!111ONE" so I'm beginning to think there's a large group of people who are uninterested in anything but having a persecution complex about playing axis factions.

    I thought it was universally agreed upon by everyone that conscripts are currently underperforming, however they do have some redeeming qualities that allow them to stay relevant all game. Grens are obselete bar a snare after the ten minute mark.

    People get frustrated when every time they suggest changes to Grens/P-Grens, people throw back the in their face the fact conscripts are struggling too. Which though true, still doesn't account for the fact that Ostheer specifically has no true elite infantry to carry them into the late game, something every other faction has and what was orginally a key part of the Soviet factions design.

    So its not a 'persecution complex', its simple annoyance building into anger at people denying ideas relating to either research and vet to allow grens/p-grens to scale well enough to stay useful for the entire game, or the introduction of another squad type further down the tech tree that is viable late game.

    Simply saying they are 'fine', give them cheaper med packs, won't do anything to address their problems.

    @Beardedragon

    I presume your speaking of balance in terms of 4v4, as comments like "but sure during the midgame use the Panzer 4s. i usually always buy two of them and why wouldnt i?" are surely not applicable in the smaller game types of 1v1 and 2v2 where Relic balance the game itself. A single panzer 4 is a massive investment, two would be absurd, you would either deny yourself any stugs for decent at or access to t4/tiger in exchange for an all rounder medium with poor performance.

    Resource inflation is a massive part of the larger team games, in the smaller game types, getting to t4 and putting down the building for it is an achievement for a Wehr player, let alone building a panther/brumbar from it. Most players currently avoid T4 altogether, finishing at t3 and using a tiger/ele as a replacement to a tier most consider a waste of time and resources.

    grens dont fill the same role as USF riflemen, if anything they fill the same role as conscripts in the late game.

    Wrong. No-one wants Grens taking the same role as rifles, but at the same time they are not in any way comparable to conscripts. Before the release of the Western factions, the Ostheer was designed to have small squads of high quality semi-elite infantry as standard, grens and P-grens were a cut above conscripts who were compensated by an excellent roster of elite infantry. It was well balanced just a couple months before OKW andd USF were added and things since then have fallen to peices thanks to ridiculous changes to veterancy and general powercreep..

    Wehrmacht does not NEED super strong core infantry.

    No it doesn't. It needs a strong core infantry, you know to hold everything together. What are they supposed to use to cap points, hold flanks, lead assualts, act as a rearguard? As currently P-Grens are fragile specialists that either are equipped as anti infantry or anti tank, and Grens are a poor buffer for support teams that most players only use to ward of UC/clown car in the early game, after that they are too weak and too expensive to continually reinforce to be used in any other role.

  • #78
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    edited November 2016

    @MisterBastard said:

    @MCMartel said:
    Grens and conscripts are both underpowered, I made a thread about this, but all it turned into was people flaming me saying '"CONSCRIPT'S AREN'T UP AT ALL, HOW DARE YOU TALK ABOUT SOMETHING OTHER THAN GRENS!!!!!!111ONE" so I'm beginning to think there's a large group of people who are uninterested in anything but having a persecution complex about playing axis factions.

    Stop playing the "righteous victim card " please...just a week ago, page one, you claimed Grens are fine and all OST players should "suck it up and L2P" with HMGs in combination, and then proceeded to bash ppl for even writing down ideas on how fix grens.

    All I red last few weeeks on the topics of Grens and/or Cons is how they are bad, but cons still have some use. Grens however are nothing more than a manpower and population cap sinkhole...

    I'm not playing any card, I'm saying you're unable to carry out a coherent argument and just resort to insults and hyperbole.

    And @Farra13 you're completely mischaracterizing the situation. I've tried to offer suggestiosn to fix Grens, but whenever I even try to mention cons are UP, it's HOW DARE YOU! YOU'RE TAKING TIME AWAY FROM OUR POOR GRENS!!!
    I am seriously sick of it.

    Also, not one of the people insisting I'm too hard on grens has commented on my actual ideas for grens, better spacing, or RA bonus in cover.

  • #79
    3 years ago
    Would it be op to give them +5 range at vet1? Maybe only in cover? (No los increase, so they need to be supported) give then a bit more kiting room and a unique trait other than "wiped more than your ass"

    Tho i still am fond of increased damage vs supressed/pinned units to encourage them as MG support squads...
  • #80
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:

    I'm not playing any card, I'm saying you're unable to carry out a coherent argument and just resort to insults and hyperbole.

    If anyone is incoherent, its you, in less than 3 pages you went from this

    @MCMartel said:
    I disagree, Grens hold up fine. They could use better spacing for fewer wipes, and a better medic ability, but otherwise they do fine.

    If you're using grens properly they work out fine. In cover with their MG's and rifle grenades, they can easily out damage rifles are long range and PZgrens and Mg-42's can fend them off at short range.

    1. Grens don't have to pay for a seperate upgrade to get their LMG, they get the ability to upgrade for free, and they get to upgrade in the field

    To this on page 3

    @MCMartel said:
    Grens and conscripts are both underpowered, I made a thread about this, but all it turned into was people flaming me saying '"CONSCRIPT'S AREN'T UP AT ALL, HOW DARE YOU TALK ABOUT SOMETHING OTHER THAN GRENS!!!!!!111ONE" so I'm beginning to think there's a large group of people who are uninterested in anything but having a persecution complex about playing axis factions.

    Now as to fixing grens. As I've said, their DPS and utility are excellent, especally for their cost, their problem is that their vet 1 is bad, their spacing is terrible, and I'm curious what people think about a bonus to RA while in cover or a decrease to reinforce costs, maybe down to 27-28?

    But yes, everyone except you is "incoherent", "rageing axis fanboy" and whatever nonsese you wrote.

    PS one guy in the "Make cons great again" topic, writing how Cons are even OP, is NOT, as you claim, a horde of axis fanboys attacking you. On almost any thread where cons are mentioned, maybe 1 out of 10 posters considers cons good enough at anything except support. In other words, you are fighting windmills, and acting as a righteous drama queen when you yourself cant decide whats what.

    PS no2

    If the topic is about Grens its about Grens, when its about cons, its about cons...focusing annoyingly only on one unit on the thread about the other one, is called "derailing"... herr drama queen.

    @MCMartel said:
    And @Farra13 you're completely mischaracterizing the situation...

    No comment ....

    But lets get back to the topic

    Grens have one big problem that cant be solved by any kind of health, armor, or vet...its their durability during combat.

    The second issue is the reinforcement cost

    Adding to that, first gren you purcahse after barracks is additional 80 MP + 10 FU (even worse is when you dont get grens out, you spent for a panzerfaust only grens have).

    The 4 man squads are a thing of the past, it worked before addons and expansions, but now its completely and utterly obsolete.
    Virtually any kind of real AI threat the western allies can pull out, + penals and T 70 on the soviet side, will force Gren squads into retreat after loosing 1-2 members in mere seconds.
    Tanks with great AI are disproportionally higher threat to grens because they are only 4 man unit...if a Sherman, or Stuart hits them, its usually one man per shell down. No armor modifier on grens, or HP buff per individual model will change that (without making them truly bullet soakers for infantry small arms)...the math is basic, anyone ever stealing a Sherman from USF notices how even with far better AI, riflemen just dont get squadwiped easy and fast as grens...reason is simple, they are 5 men squad.

    Its time for Relic to show it gives a damn and increase the squad size to 5. Will this need additional changes in prices, upgrades etc, probably yes, but fearing change because of a probablity that Grens become spamable OR OP, is perhhaps the worst logic ever.

  • #81
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    Double

  • #82
    3 years ago
    5 man grens exist...they are called volks (assuming you want the current 4 man power to be spread across the 5 man squad) they can absolutely still work but require a reaproach to how burst damage is dealt (which would be better for the entirety of the game and not just 4 man squads)

    Main offenders for burst damage are mortars, non katy rocket arty and tanks, to a lesser extent things like cooked grenades because you can somewhat see it coming and adjust.

    Other problems are dual equiped blob focus fire. Due to the smaller squad and need to retreat earlier to save vet even an equal cost collection of grens would lose handily to one of rifles or tommies simply by focusing one, instakilling 2 models then changing targets after retreat.

    For burst damage we could further nerf all aoe things (bad for pubishing blobbers) we could add some sort of spacing (probably the best approach but in pretty sure relic has already said no) OR we can readjust the power of those units (not a straight nerf)

    Mortars dealing less damage per autofire shot but at a slightly larger aoe (attrition damage) and allowing full power bursts from barrage would help i feel
    For tanks i already posted my suggestion for better burst control
    For rocket arty i think the panzer werfer has it right- supression. Rocket arty is supposed to punish blobs, and it sure as well does that! (With the exception of the katy) it fucking brock turners them! (Rapes them into the dirt with no repercussion) but i think a lesser nuke and adding supression would help in that it wont insta kill but will provide proper area denial and keep the enemy around for the next volley (unless they retreat)

    For the second set of offenders- the western allies- its a bit of a harder goat, but i among others think that removing dual equip or ai weapons would greatly help staying power of of grens as well as deter blobs slightly

    But i also think all massive RA buffs need to go. I read of a suggestion that vet will cap out at a certain target size and apply more to cover, i think this is the way to go (across the board) this means terminatoring across the battlefield in a ball of BARs, hate and freedom would be....well actually a risk, actually cause bleed...

    Or give the axis demos <3
    At the very least reduce the cost of smines slightly...
  • #83
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    Youve put a lot of effort on the analasiys, and i mostly agree...unfortunately its close to fantasy seeing all of you mentioned reworked (the game is old after all),
    5 man squad in any form is the quickest, most realistic solution, maybe it would work even if the HP on grens stays the same (dont know ...but thats why testing exists).

  • #84
    3 years ago

    please dont give axis demos... i feel like its one of those few anti blob mid game things i can do as a soviet player.

    lets just give them more spacing for now. if it doesnt work i would probably be up for upping it to a 5 man squad. i just think it removes some uniqueness if one does that, though.

  • #85
    3 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    Increase grenadiers cost to 300 and make them worth of his in game definition. And would be cool to have a faction based on quality infantry instead of numbers
  • #86
    3 years ago

    A five men Gren Squad (with the fifth guy there having only an AssgreMp40, thus mostly just for show) would work fine (and fun fact: mostly historical too), with DPS being more or less the same at most ranges, with adjusted price to about 260-270, and most importantly, reinforcement cost. I have been fooling around with an excel table of their DPS, and its still most reasonable. Its just not auto face hug them anymore, but they will still loose at close range.

    Because still having the one for the old 1.5 armor Grens is what is also killing Wehr play.

    Alteneratively you can make them 5 K-98 grens for a 280-ish price but I don't think "better Volks" is a very good idea. Quite a bit of long range firepower increase there, whereas to problem is mostly (i) too much firepower on WFA mainlines (ii) too squishy Grens.

    Most importantly, Dual Wielding WFA RM/IS mainlines have to go (but keep the ability to pick up either a single LMG or a AT weapon. They can choose which one, which is versatile but not a doom blob level of firepower. For example 3 slots on the unit but a single BAR/Bren/Zook/Pait would take up 2, but they can pickup captured ones.

    IF competing with (IMO almost non existant) Axis elite squads is problem, I think you can keep the dual wielding on Lts/Captains, but only one of a kind (Bar for the LT, Zook for the Captn). And maybe for the Rear Echs (since those are killable glass cannons still), but NOT on the ridiculsly cheap and effective Sappers.

    Cons are the only ones which would need some sort of compensation, even reducing their price to 220-230 could work btw, or some usable upgrade like non-doc PPshs. Or a single DP. Why can't they have a DP?

  • #87
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @Kurfürst said:

    Alteneratively you can make them 5 K-98 grens for a 280-ish price but I don't think "better Volks" is a very good idea. Quite a bit of long range firepower increase there, whereas to problem is mostly (i) too much firepower on WFA mainlines (ii) too squishy Grens.

    Considering Wehr was made to represent the early war German army with "quality over quantity" i see no reason Grens become exactly that, better volks...they are also built from barracks and not the basic building - costing extra 80 MP + 10 FU.

    What Grens need is a buff, creating a mind barrier for Allied players to stop rushing head on.

  • #88
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Right, Mister, just randomly assert I'm incoherent and not making an argument rather than actually making your own and assert without any rational basis that the whole unit needs to change and become a 5 man squad.
    If the idea is to make them a long-range focused defensive infantry to guard support unit flanks, then they should get a bonus to RA in cover like the Brits, not extra men.

  • #89
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    Right, Mister, just randomly assert I'm incoherent and not making an argument rather than actually making your own and assert without any rational basis that the whole unit needs to change and become a 5 man squad.
    If the idea is to make them a long-range focused defensive infantry to guard support unit flanks, then they should get a bonus to RA in cover like the Brits, not extra men.

    PPL repeatedly posted arguments on all 3 pages, while your responds were nothing but insults, ad hominems and the phrase "grens are fine". IT IS YOU who did not provide a single argument to prove Grens hold well...only to backpedall and claim suddenly "grens are underpowered"...

    But lets repeat once more in short

    • Allied Anti infantry capabilty surpassed the ability of a 4 man gren squad tu survive long enough to dish out damage in any real battle. The result is that many players, even during competitions, completely ignored grens and used pgrens....this fact speaks a lot....if players desperately try to avoid or replace a certain unti type, something is terribly wrong.

      • grens have high reinforcement cost, higher than superior units like riflemen, while being barely cheaper to train (basic cost not counting barracks), this leads to horrible manpower drain the longer the battle rages, and more tanks/arty appear on the map.
    • barracks cost additional 80 MP and 10 fuel ...first gren is quite expensive...more than any basic infantry. Yes they get panzerfausts, but considering how fast allied light vehicles arrive into the fray, its hardly a bonus. Its, in effect, a crutch untill you upgrade to pak 40s, or pgrens, requiring additional cost to convert them to a dedicated AT infantry unit.

    • Ost has no effective doctrinal elite infantry as an alternative, making the issue even more troubelsome

    • HMG 42s ARE NOT hard counters to allied infantry like you portray it, certain infantry types have non doctrinal smoke, able to neutralize static HMGs in an instant, Allies also have high grade indirect fire untis and call in artillery to quickly shatter any ost defensive line based on semi static units

    • allied light vehicle play and their AI lethality, while staying out of panzerfaust range

    • grens vet levels are lackluster

  • #90
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Mister, you ignoring my arguments is not the same thing as me not making them, I've repeatedly done so.
    1. Artillery/tanks drain on grens is an issue of spacing something I'm mentioned multiple times as an issue
    2. They have a barrack because they aren't required to pay anything for upgrades like every other faction does. Like how soviets need 2 sidegrades to get what grens have.
    3. You're then arguing that, suddenly, having a free snare doesn't even count because what? Other factions also get light vehicles?
    4. I agree, Stormtroopers are UP and should be buffed, that is a seperate issue but we're in agreement
    5. MG's do hard counter infantry, you using ALL CAPS doesn't change that. They supress almost instantly and have excellent DPS against both infantry and light vehicles. The onyl problem is the currently overpowered US mortar, which again, is a mortar problem, not an infantry problem.6
    6. I've mentioned on multiple occasions most of my comments are about stock grens and that tweaking their higher-end vet levels seems like a fine change.

  • #91
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    Mister, you ignoring my arguments is not the same thing as me not making them, I've repeatedly done so.
    1. Artillery/tanks drain on grens is an issue of spacing something I'm mentioned multiple times as an issue

    Except its not only an issue of spacing... Shermans, T-70s, mortars, Stuarts etc. all can be counted to kill grens with each shot fired, even when they have the best possible spread... anti infantry weapons from non axis factions are deadly accurate, and fast firing ...its that simple...in the end the HP per model isnt important. All those weapons have the needed threshold to oneshot a gren model on a regular basis, so only the squads model/men number becomes important for unit surival...

    1. They have a barrack because they aren't required to pay anything for upgrades like every other faction does. Like how soviets need 2 sidegrades to get what grens have.

    As elaborated before by many others, individual unit upgrades are an advantage, as you can react and skip upgrades, instead of wasting resources on things you dont need.
    If i dont use Grens,with "escalate battle phase one" i only get the abiltiy to construct a building...for yet aditional resources...there is nothing free here, and of all the factions OST is the most rigid, tech hungry one...

    1. You're then arguing that, suddenly, having a free snare doesn't even count because what? Other factions also get light vehicles?

    "Also" ?
    Lets not act like OST has "comparable light vehicles" (read as "light fast firing AI tanks of doom")

    No, as i wrote, its a crutch for you to survive untill you get paks and pgrens. Its there so you dont get rekt by a flame pio loaded clown car, or rushed upgraded bren carrier, or slightly later by Stuarts, AEC, or T-70, happily sealclubbing your infantry... so long he isnt braindead trying to facehug grens...the best part, even when panzerfausted, they still have decent speed to retreat.

    1. I agree, Stormtroopers are UP and should be buffed, that is a seperate issue but we're in agreement

    ok...but even if they get a buff, it wont make Wher any better...unless you just want to force everyone on the stormtropper meta... ppl desperately want good ost infantry.

    1. MG's do hard counter infantry, you using ALL CAPS doesn't change that. They supress almost instantly and have excellent DPS against both infantry and light vehicles.

    No they dont... I use arty officers smoke barrage to block LOS of enemy HMGs on a regualr basis... and every time i used it, they were neutered in the current local fight...which meant i could focus on units the MG supported, or just envelop and fry the lonely MG, if thats the case.

    1. I've mentioned on multiple occasions most of my comments are about stock grens and that tweaking their higher-end vet levels seems like a fine change.

    ok

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