[Wehr] Rework for their Mainline Infantry.

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Comments

  • #92
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    3. You're then arguing that, suddenly, having a free snare doesn't even count because what? Other factions also get light vehicles?

    Once more Panzer Faust is not free it requires a T1 to be present and is one of the few abilities that can become unavailable if that building is destroyed.

    And you are not complaining that Wer is the only faction that actually needs to pay and built T1 to have access to mainline infantry? Should Wer have the benefit of being able to have access to mainline infantry like other faction?

    Different faction work differently and each has it pro and cons.

    Try stopping looking at neighbor's grass and seeing greener...

  • #93
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Faust is free because it comes with the infantry, no sidegrades, no upgrades. No extra cost like soviets have to pay. I'm not looking at someone elses grass and seeing greener, I'm saying that people are only looking at the negatives of grens and ignoring the positives.

  • #94
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    Faust is free because it comes with the infantry, no sidegrades, no upgrades. No extra cost like soviets have to pay. I'm not looking at someone elses grass and seeing greener, I'm saying that people are only looking at the negatives of grens and ignoring the positives.

    For around the 10th time check your stat before posting Faust DOES not come free it requires T1 present. If one call-ins grenadiers or Osttruppen and has not built T1 or the T1 is destroyed one DOES NOT have access to Faust.

  • #95
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @MCMartel said:
    Faust is free because it comes with the infantry, no sidegrades, no upgrades. No extra cost like soviets have to pay. I'm not looking at someone elses grass and seeing greener, I'm saying that people are only looking at the negatives of grens and ignoring the positives.

    For around the 10th time check your stat before posting Faust DOES not come free it requires T1 present. If one call-ins grenadiers or Osttruppen and has not built T1 or the T1 is destroyed one DOES NOT have access to Faust.

    the very definition of it being free is that it does not require a side upgrade. you do not PAY for an upgrade to use these. the Faust and grenade usage is NOT placed in the cost of your teching building. you dont pay a higher amount to tech up because grenades or fausts are free and requires no upgrading they're just there when you tech up, and you tech up pretty damn fast. the cost of ones teching buildings is set the way they are to avoid people from teching up too fast and out tech other players, thus the faust and grenade is not a part of your teching.

    To further prove my point i experimented a little bit.
    on red ball express i played against computers, 1 with wehrmacht and one with soviets where i specifically only took 1 out of 2 fuel points, to mimic what normal gameplay would be, i also teched up and bought the necessary items and techings as soon as i could for this experiment.

    Wehrmacht: Tech up to tier 3 after 4 min and 22 seconds. meaning after around 4.5 min you reach tier 3 and you have access to AT bombs and grenades.

    I did the soviets twice, one with both at bombs and molotov upgraded and one without.

    Soviets with grenades: by the time i reach 4 minutes i had only researched molotovs and AT bombs. it took me 8 minutes and 37 seconds before i reached tier 3, with AT bombs and molotovs.

    Soviets without grenades: it took me 6 minutes and 37 minutes to reach tier 3 without grenades.

    now back to the main topic at hand, are fausts and grenades free? by all means, yes they are because Wehrmacht tier 3 is not suddenly more expensive because you NEED this teching to use grenades. no not at all. Wehrmacht tier 3 is cheaper and faster to reach than soviet tier 3. meaning even without having to pay a tedious and expensive side upgrade (times 2) to make the conscripts somewhat useful, you STILL reach the same tier, slower than wehrmacht.

    sure you get more boom for your bucks in soviet tier 3 so its fair its more expensive but it doesnt change the fact that the faust and grenade is, by all means, free. you dont even need AT grenades as a wehrmacht player after 4 minutes the only thing you'll ever face are scout cars or bren carriers. on the other hand, you can have out 222s by the time im still fiddling around in tier 1 or 2, in which, having an AT bomb would have been very handy.

    alas it takes 25 fuel to get AT bombs so most dont take these untill they reach tier 3.

    so how much ealier do you want grenades/fausts? most dont have AT grenades by the time wehrmacht gets them, and usually only the molotov is ever researched before you even get your own grenade.

    For the love of god dude, by the time soviets get both grenades, you already have both grenades AND tier 3!

    YES the damn faust and grenade is free. how is this even deniable? they're just as free as the lieutenant, captain and major following the tech up for USF.

  • #96
    3 years ago
    In terms of discussing grens m, the faust is free. If we were talking about ostroppen we could say "well they do have to pay a price that the soviet could only dream of for their snare"
    But for grens its effectively free.
    Because no t1 no grens no faust either but as long as you can build grens you can fire fausts.
  • #97
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    In terms of discussing grens m, the faust is free. If we were talking about ostroppen we could say "well they do have to pay a price that the soviet could only dream of for their snare"
    But for grens its effectively free.

    Hardly, Grens come out of a building you need to bulid, unlike cons or riflemen...

    The defintion of free last time i checked "you dont pay for it in any way"...and you surely do...

    "A free panzerfaust" ...if grens came out of HQ ...and the HQ was a prerequesite for panzerfaust ability, and not abarracks.

    But lets see the prices for teching to "fully upgraded" grens as opposed to cons...

    For grens you go 80 MP + 10 Fu for barracks + BF1 100 MP and 40 FU = a total of 180 MP and 50 fuel for Grens to have panzerfasut and rifle grenade upgraded + ability to equip LMG 42

    Cons come out of the HQ, dont need barracks, but have side upgrades. Molotovs are 125 MP and 15 FU + AT grenade 125 MP + 25 FU = 250 MP and 40 FU...this is hardly bank breaking

    So USSRs upgrades are 70 MP more but 10 FU less - which can be invested into Rifle command (160 MP 10 FU) and start "the penal party".

    Sooo i dont see why all the rave "how expensive cons upgrades are " ..,not only that, but you can skip those upgrades. They are not integared into the rigid teching like OST.

    @Beardedragon said:

    thus the faust and grenade is not a part of your teching.

    Wehrmacht: Tech up to tier 3 after 4 min and 22 seconds. meaning after around 4.5 min you reach tier 3 and you have access to AT bombs and grenades.

    Free grenade ???
    What grenade ??? you mean rifle grenade ...its unlocked with battle phase one for 100 MP and 40 Fuel, it also unlocks the building of Mech kompanie for yet additional 200 MP 20 FU...+ lmg 42 equipping for additional munitions...so you pay to get an option for 2 out of 3 things with BF1. The only thing BF1 directly pays for is rifle grenade.

    You call that free...sigh...

  • #98
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Because no t1 no grens no faust either but as long as you can build grens you can fire fausts.

    Actually NO
    1) The faust is not unlocked when T1 is built but as long as the T1 is present on the map. The Fust ability is gone if T1 is destroyed.
    2) You can actually have Gren as call in unit without T1 and they will not be able to use Faust

  • #99
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Beardedragon said:

    Faust is free because it comes with the infantry, no sidegrades, no upgrades. No extra cost like soviets have to pay. I'm not looking at someone elses grass and seeing greener, I'm saying that people are only looking at the negatives of grens and ignoring the positives.

    the very definition of it being free is that it does not require a side upgrade. you do not PAY for an upgrade to use these. the Faust and grenade usage is NOT placed in the cost of your teching building.

    1) in order to have faust you need to pay the cost of the T1 building. No T1 no faust as simple as that.
    2) In order to have grenades you need to research T2 no research no grenades as simple as that.

    You want to call that "free"? Ok but then you have to call free the Grenades for shock troops, grenades AI partisans, grenades for Guards, the DP upgrade for Gaurds, the LT for USF, the Captain, the Major and the list can go on...

  • #100
    3 years ago
    For fuck sake the faust is free in the same way that the okw 37mm is in the same way that the fucking brit arty is. Really tho, that 80mp and 10 fuel investment (that i cant believe we are talking about how losing the building loses the ability as if it happens every game) ALSO grants you access to a roster of troops. That tiny investment gives you a choice of indirect fire, grens ready to snare, and a fantastic sniper, ontop of your already potent combo of binocular pios and mg42. Dont pretend that grens are failing because they NEED 4 con models worth of manpower and 15 seconds of fuel, you certainly wernt inplying it broke the bank when the GREATER investment was brought up in regards to penals.

    So yes, for all intents and purposes grens cone with their faust, teching (80mp and 10 fuel) for fausts will unlock access to grens (who for no additional cost will be carrying a faust)
    The OBVIOUS exception being that if you fast tech to 2 (because of the ATROCIOUSLY high cost of 80 fucking mp and 10 fuel) and use one LONE doctrine that allows you to call in a single gren squad at 3cp(?) for something like 30 fuel(for those keeping track thats triple the MASSIVE ECONOMY CRIPPLING 10 fuel that t1 costs) then, yes you WILL have created grens without access to a faust. Congrats, you went out of your way, picked an underwhelming doctrine, waited well past the ideal time to get grens (give them a chance to reap some vet) and paid a premium so you could make a point.
  • #101
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    Ok lets make this even clearer, and to stop anyone from crying, we will count both AT nades and Moltovs as a rigid unavoidable "must" upgrade for Soviets, same for two first optional buildings .

    USSR
    MP FU
    Molotovs 125 15
    AT nades 125 25
    Rifle command 160 10
    Support weapon 160 20

                              570     70 
    

    Ost

    Bararcks 80 10
    EBP1 100 40
    Mech kompanie 200 20

                              380    70
    

    Sooo, the worst case scenario for USSR, same fuel invested but 200 MP more

    Now if we go deeper its even worse for ost tanks..

    EBP2 100 45
    Support armo korps 240 60
    EBP3 100 45
    Panzer shit korpus building 200 50

    The soviets need

    Tankovy batallion 240 85
    Mech Armor 240 90

  • #102
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    For fuck sake the faust is free in the same way that the okw 37mm is in the same way that the fucking brit arty is.

    Exactly my point this "theory" that Wer is the only faction that gets free stuff when other faction do not, simply does not hold water. Either all faction get free stuff or none.

  • #103
    3 years ago
    Nobody has said ONLY ost get free stuff, this is a discussion about grens, whom bring to discussion thier counterpart- cons whom despite needing a greater investment to kit out preform poorer and have less options to scale. The only faction that DOESNT get anything for free is the soviet so i have no idea why we are arguing over the faust in such depth. Now that we have agreed it IS free, we can carry on with whatever was being discussed way back before the assinine claim that it wasnt
  • #104
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Nobody has said ONLY ost get free stuff, this is a discussion about grens, whom bring to discussion thier counterpart- cons whom despite needing a greater investment to kit out preform poorer and have less options to scale. The only faction that DOESNT get anything for free is the soviet so i have no idea why we are arguing over the faust in such depth. Now that we have agreed it IS free, we can carry on with whatever was being discussed way back before the assinine claim that it wasnt

    So let me get this straight ...getting cons from HQ, FROM HQ. and then getting molotovs, or AT nades separetly, is "horrible teching", but forced to build bararcks and then building a unit from it ...is cheaper.

    Cons get molotovos for 125 15 and can upgrade them the first minute of the game...no need for AT nades as Axis dont have anythign but a kubel with OKW for quite some time. AT nades are 125 25, hardly an issue...

    In comparison Osts EBP1 for the instant rifle nade unlock and otional munitions lmg 42 upgrade is 100 40....HOW is this better please explain it.

    The mantra is really strong...it doesnt matter which path you take...all that matters is where you end, and the end looks like this

    For upgraded Cons

    Molotovs 125 15
    AT nades 125 25

                 250 40
    

    Upgraded Grens with pfausts and rifle nades + optional Mg 42 upgrade

    Ost Barracks 80 10
    EBP1 100 40

                        180  50
    

    PS both units need a buff thats clear, but stop making cons look like some resource tech sinkhole...they are not.

  • #105
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    The only faction that DOESNT get anything for free is the soviet...

    Soviet get the "free" Grenades for shock troops, "free" grenades AI partisans, "free" grenades for Guards, the "free" DP upgrade for Guards, the "free" barrage for zis and plethora of "free" doctrinal no tech vehicles, infantry and support weapons.

    It all comes down to what you want to call "free"...

    Actually Wer has linear teching and they buy their upgrades with building unlock and in bulk and thus they get discount.

    One built T1 he also unlock Faust the same way a USF play get LT and bazookas on m20 crews, one researches T2 one also unlocks grenades and LMGs the same way UKF unlocks pyrotechnics and healing or the Soviet unlock T3 once he builds T1 or T2.

    Are you actually arguing that Wer has an advantage due to its linear Teching?

    If in someone's opinion the current Wer teching actually provides them with an advantage, then he should asking for Wer to be able to built T1 or T2 for no cost and have battle phase 1 unlock 222 and 251 and side techs for lmg grenades faust.

  • #106
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @Beardedragon said:

    Faust is free because it comes with the infantry, no sidegrades, no upgrades. No extra cost like soviets have to pay. I'm not looking at someone elses grass and seeing greener, I'm saying that people are only looking at the negatives of grens and ignoring the positives.

    the very definition of it being free is that it does not require a side upgrade. you do not PAY for an upgrade to use these. the Faust and grenade usage is NOT placed in the cost of your teching building.

    1) in order to have faust you need to pay the cost of the T1 building. No T1 no faust as simple as that.
    2) In order to have grenades you need to research T2 no research no grenades as simple as that.

    You want to call that "free"? Ok but then you have to call free the Grenades for shock troops, grenades AI partisans, grenades for Guards, the DP upgrade for Gaurds, the LT for USF, the Captain, the Major and the list can go on...

    yes of course i do. shocks have free grenades as do guards.

    of course they have free grenades? you dont pay to be able to use these, you only pay the munitions fee like anyone else.

    @MisterBastard

    getting cons from HQ is not bad but getting grens from tier 1 really isnt bad either. in return you can start out with an MG.

    and yes, buying molotovs and AT bombs is a bad thing for the soviets as a side upgrade and heres why:

    soviets can buy a molotov upgrade OR the AT bomb upgrade, before wehr gets any of theirs. however, if the soviets wants to get both upgrades? they will get these upgrades about 15 seconds BEFORE WEHR gets both their upgrades, AND tier 2. and obviously you have delayed your entire teching by a ton so soviets are still fiddling around tier 1 or 2 by this time.

    Cons need molotovs to be somewhat useful even in the early game. but it takes 4 minutes and 22 seconds (ish) to reach tier 2 as wehr where you get access to both grenades and a new rooster of units.

    how many grenades you're gonna fire off during those 4 minutes is very limited dude.

  • #107
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Beardedragon said:
    of course they have free grenades? you dont pay to be able to use these, you only pay the munitions fee like anyone else.

    Actually Assault grenadier, Grenadiers call-ins, PG call-ins, Stormtroopers do not have grenades until they research T2, so NO they are not like anyone else. (PLS check stats)

  • #108
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @Beardedragon said:
    of course they have free grenades? you dont pay to be able to use these, you only pay the munitions fee like anyone else.

    Actually Assault grenadier, Grenadiers call-ins, PG call-ins, Stormtroopers do not have grenades until they research T2, so NO they are not like anyone else. (PLS check stats)

    But soviet infantry do and how often do you have stormtroopers before the 4 minute mark?

    factions gets different stuff for free. and it only takes around 4 min to reach tier 2 anyway for wehr, how many grenades do you intend to fire by then?

    i can barely even buy guards or shock troopers by the 4 minute mark unless ive been in a massive carnage of a battle and still reaping in command points.

  • #109
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @Beardedragon said:
    But soviet infantry do and how often do you have stormtroopers before the 4 minute mark?

    And you can have Assault grenadier as 0 time but with out grenades for 5 minutes and you can have conscripts with molotovs before min 1 and that actually means nothing.

    You made a claim that all call-in infantry come with grenades, I proved you wrong just admit and move on.

  • #110
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Vipper what exactly is it you want. do you want wehr to have a side upgrade to buy rifle grenades and Fausts seperately without getting them from tier 2? how is that going to be better at all.

    the teching cost to reach tier 2 wouldnt go down because the grenade package isnt added to the tech cost. The tech cost wont change because its price is there to specifically make sure that people dont tech up too fast.

    sure you can have assault grenadiers without grenades for 4 minutes (not 5 minutes) and conscripts can have molotov. but the more AT bombs or molotov upgrades soviets buy the more he delays his own tier 3, giving wehr a bigger window of opportunity to play scout cars or an early flame halftrack.

    molotovs are not really grenades they deny area and are super slow to be thrown. its hardly the same. if the molotov was an actual grenade, i would understand.

  • #111
    3 years ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,318 mod
    edited November 2016

    [moderator input]
    The discrepancies between Soviet and Wehr costs are interesting.

    But, can you guys please return to the topic at hand (mainline infantry), instead of arguing who is wrong or right about which call-in units have which abilities at what time. This topic is interesting, and I do not want to see it turn into a knowledge war or a war about chosen terminology. Cheers :)

  • #112
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Beardedragon said:
    @Vipper what exactly is it you want.

    I simply do not want to have to read again that Wer has the advantage of getting "Free" stuff.

  • #113
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @Beardedragon said:
    @Vipper what exactly is it you want.

    I simply do not want to have to read again that Wer has the advantage of getting "Free" stuff.

    they dont get free stuff any more than others.

    just free grenades for their mainline infantry.

    everyone gets free stuff at some point. british have free mortars for instance.

    i would still just make grens have more spacing which is already added in to the new patch when ever it goes live.

    however if that doesnt work, someone suggested making them in to a more expensive squad. maybe that helps i dont know but if this happens the conscripts would need something to compensate as well otherwise they will be completely left behind.

  • #114
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Beardedragon said:
    they dont get free stuff any more than others.
    just free grenades for their mainline infantry.

    For the love of GOD rifle grenades are not "FREE" the require B.P. 1 and are not available for the Wer before 5 min mark...

    Can we PlS PLS never mention "free" stuff again?...

  • #115
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @Beardedragon said:
    they dont get free stuff any more than others.
    just free grenades for their mainline infantry.

    For the love of GOD rifle grenades are not "FREE" the require B.P. 1 and are not available for the Wer before 5 min mark...

    Can we PlS PLS never mention "free" stuff again?...

    no. they are free because you dont pay for them. and its not a 5 minute mark, its closer to 4 minutes on smaller stages which is what most 1v1 and 2v2 games are played out on. all you have to do is wait, and they magically appear to you as you tech up. id say thats quite a bargain.

    you realize we're going on with a conversation that the moderator told us not to right? what we're writing here will prolly be deleted.

  • #116
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @Beardedragon said:

    no. they are free because you dont pay for them.

    FOR GOD SAKE, YOU DO PAY... through "Escalation to battle phase one" which is 100 manpower 40 fuel. This rigid barrier serves a number of purposes.

    Its an extra barrier between buildings for OST factions.

    It unlocks the LMG 42 as equipment for ost (still not free, you pay extra for every one you get)

    It unlocks the rifle grenade ability.

    Total cost for Grens + panzerfaust + rifle nade + optional LMG 42 180 manpower 50 fuel FOR THE THIRD TIME

    Total cost for cons + molotov + AT nades 250 manpower 40 fuel.....

    This is not "free", its just wrapped to look as a quasi "all in one, tech up"...but it isnt....

    why you ask...

    you still need extra MP and FU for EBP1 mech kompanie, it doesnt magically appear after escalation researched.

    To go for the next, higher building, you need to research EFP2

    But i can already see the question incoming ...

    "But that still makes Rifle nades cehaper as it gives those two additional options"...again NO

    USSRs teching system is half rigid, unlike osts. The "escalation levels" prices for teching are redistributted into individual buildings,(lets sey they are, but OST needs more in the end in both MP and FU)...

    Building Rifle command, or support weapons, immediately "escalates" the soviet faction...wehr doesnt work like that...

    sigh

    Why is this so hard to comprehend...

  • #117
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    we were asked to stop the discussion on whether its free or not. why do you keep on then.

  • #118
    3 years ago

    Didnt get to that post ...

  • #119
    3 years ago

    Alright, to clear things up, Fausts, and nades for grens are free (however, the cost you pay is a matter of time.) This is coming from an Ost fanboy. Grens not coming straight out of HQ is the price paid for fausts. And no nades/lmg till teching t2 is the "cost" paid by Ost for those upgrades. So there is no tangible resource cost, only a time cost. Teching costs is not something you can attribute to cost of gren upgrades since like people have mentioned before, tech costs allow for other units unlike at/molotov upgrades, or weapon racks which only benefit the specific inf unit(s).

  • #120
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    Cons fully upgraded you need 190 MP more and 10 fuel less, compared to Grens barracks + escalation cost.

    You pay almost the same in resources and thats what matters in the end, its just called apples instead of oranges....and with ost YOU MUST PAY EVERY TIME to tech up.

    So no, its neither free or flexible.

  • #121
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    edited November 2016

    So is anyone else really dissapointed with the attempts to fix things in the balance mod?

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