[Wehr] Rework for their Mainline Infantry.

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  • #122
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    I am reserving judgement so far, I was suprised that with the adjustments to Sov elite infantry that cons and the t2 recieved nothing? Strange decision, likely not the smartest.

    Its a really odd decision. As for the nerfs themselves, I agree that the flamer was the wrong weapon for the penals, its too powerful on any mainline/elite infantry, being a no-brainer while also denying cover, giving obscene vet exp and making garrisons obselete. But without a weapon upgrade I don't now how well they will scale, I would have thought that if they had no upgrade then their vet accuracy would be more consistent and higher over the 3 levels to compensate by ensuring they had reliable damage output.

    The Guards I do agree witht he nerf to PTRS damage to infantry, at vet 3 they could burst down even Obers with their high accuracy and 27 damage a shot. After that its just a slight nerf to the grenade to stop them wiping mg teams so consitently but it is cheaper by nearly 25%, and the vet being spread more evenly across the three ranks. Overall apart from a small cost increase, the changes aren't drastic, they still feel powerful and fill the jack of all trades role they were meant too, without rolling over other more specialized infantry like p-grens.

    I think the main cause of concern for the two units was that they were dominating against OKW, at least Ostheer had mg's to lock them down, the Mg-34 comes too late and isn't good enough to reliably hold them back. As during the war-paint tournament the OKWvSOV win rate was 33/67 to Sov, showing they were dominating due to the penal/guard meta, so it makes sense to take it down a notch.

    But at the same time, I wonder why they didn't touch grens? (bar spacing and that pointless adjustment to the medkit). Not even a reinforcement cost reduction that they sorely need so as not to bleed when used with the new halftrack buff, at least P-grens are slightly more resilient now with vet scaling.

    The removal of dual 1919s was welcome, but I am confused as to why Inf Secs are not having their dual Brens changed to a single either, as they will now be the most powerful mainline infantry by a long shot considering they had no changes what so ever, which is quite frankly absurd.

    At the end of the day though, its still a preview mod, nothing is set in stone. Things can change, and overall its a step in the right direction, though a few players have pointed out some problems with the stug-e and T-70 being nerfed too hard, for now I have little problems with it overall.

    Futher down the road though, there is still alot of changes that need to be made.

  • #123
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    To say at least...Grens remain the same, so do wehr tanks...also STUG E got nerfbatted so hard ppl report they are able to kill a conscript squad only after a very long time.

  • #124
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Yeh, i was dissapointed with the lack of changes to the grens. But overall, as I said, the patch is a step in the right direction. Nerfing allied light vehicles, usf mortar, dual 1919s and their infatry scaling will help alot. But there is still alot to be down.

  • #125
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    The penals and guards combo just neuter axis infantry and any 222 play. And when guards and penals are used in pairs or more, and even slightly displaced, they just dont give a flying fuck about Hmg 42s. Yes they surpress, but 6 man squads mean the USSR player really has to be dissconnected from the game to suffer a squqadwipe. Sprinke in a soviet mortar or two, and ost literally has no staying power in infantry. I am better with osttruppen as numbers/meatshield + pgrens, than with grens...

  • #126
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @MisterBastard said:
    The penals and guards combo just neuter axis infantry and any 222 play. And when guards and penals are used in pairs or more, and even slightly displaced, they just dont give a flying fuck about Hmg 42s. Yes they surpress, but 6 man squads mean the USSR player really has to be dissconnected from the game to suffer a squqadwipe. Sprinke in a soviet mortar or two, and ost literally has no staying power in infantry. I am better with osttruppen as numbers/meatshield + pgrens, than with grens...

    i agree that its a dangerous combo, but neither of them have AT bombs to cripple vehicles, and their pricing is very high. 300 for penals, and even more for guards (guards even get a price increase in the next balance patch).

    so if he starts using a mix of penals and guards, by all means there should be manpower somewhere for you to counter it. he has fewer units than you do then. you say sprinkle in a mortar or two. how are they going to fund all this. by the time you can even field all that, and lets not forget you need both tier 1 and 2, you've delayed your teching to tier 3 already.

    with all this bought, theres no way wehrmacht havent already reached tier 4 before the soviet player does.

    Suppression does really help though, the MG42s are not bad even if they face 6 man squads. you dont need to squad wipe with your MG squads, just suppress or pin and let your other infantry deal with the rest.

  • #127
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,969

    Soviet T1+T2 is a very viable build, especially if you dont get many Conscripts and dont get their Sidegrades. Its not expensive. Soviet T1+T2 is 30 fuel? Combined. And 320 MP. Thats less than Wehr T1+T2. A single Clown car delays your tech more than building both T1 and T2 as Soviets. And yes, Penals and Guards are more expensive than Grens, but you also get more mileage out of them. They have a much greater impact on the Battlefield per Squad when compared to Grenadiers. And generally spewaking you will have a similar amount of Squads afield, as the price difference is not that huge. You dont get 1.5 Grens per Penal Squad. You get 1,25. For Guards its 1,33. Meaning your oponent may outnumber you slightly on the long run. But chances yre your better performing Squads will even this out by simply being... well... better.

  • #128
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,969
    edited November 2016

    For example, if you get 2 Penal Squads and 2 Guard Squads, your oponent could field 5 Grenadiers. Which of these two groups would win a straight up fight is anyones guess, but I dare say its heavily in favour of Penals and Guards.

    Sorry for double posting, but this damn thing here wouldnt let me edit my previous post via mobile.

  • #129
    2 years ago
    I mean to be fair grens are underpowered at the moment so its askew from that angle too.
    Mg42 excels vs the soviet because incremental supression runs per 3 models (if i recal properly) doubling up soviet squad massivly increases their weakenss to supression.

    I again would like to float the idea of replacing grens vet 1 with a bonus vs supressed troops to reinforce wehr combined arms and the focal point of the mg42 in their infantry lineup.
    The increased supression vs soviet troops plus the increased damage would help the smaller gren size punch above and bleed those reds.
  • #130
    2 years ago
    VutherVuther Posts: 2,129

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    I mean to be fair grens are underpowered at the moment so its askew from that angle too.
    Mg42 excels vs the soviet because incremental supression runs per 3 models (if i recal properly) doubling up soviet squad massivly increases their weakenss to supression.

    On that note, with the recent changes 2 HMG-42s and 3 Grens cost less than 2 Penals and 2 Guards, which is certainly a great start on the changes' prospects.

  • #131
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,847

    Now guards are junk cause their meh, AT is now much wors eand their AI ability is hugely weaker as well, that massive nerf should have come with a cost decrease because they aren't worth close to 330 anymore.
    Penals are garbage now because they don't scale at all without a weapon.
    But conscripts and maxims were untouched so basically USSR infantry prospects are 0. They're back to being unplayably bad, I guess I might as well re-learn the UKF because it looks like USSR will be going bye-bye as a useful faction.

  • #132
    2 years ago
    While this IS. thread about grens, id like to say a better approach for guards would have been ptrs or dps as upgrade paths (allow rebuying fucking ptrs then) to make them less all in one heavy troops vs "soviet are using the only non fuel non at gun AT we gave them, gotta make sure its detrimental to use them again"
  • #133
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,699
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    Now guards are junk cause their meh, AT is now much wors eand their AI ability is hugely weaker as well, that massive nerf should have come with a cost decrease because they aren't worth close to 330 anymore.
    Penals are garbage now because they don't scale at all without a weapon.
    But conscripts and maxims were untouched so basically USSR infantry prospects are 0. They're back to being unplayably bad, I guess I might as well re-learn the UKF because it looks like USSR will be going bye-bye as a useful faction.

    Man you have made it clear that in your opinion Soviet infantry is bad. Do you actually have to repeat that 30 times in every thread there is, even it is not related to Topic of the tread?

    Why don't start a thread about Soviet infantry and repeat as many times you like there.

    This Thread is about WER

  • #134
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @MCMartel said:
    Now guards are junk cause their meh, AT is now much wors eand their AI ability is hugely weaker as well, that massive nerf should have come with a cost decrease because they aren't worth close to 330 anymore.
    Penals are garbage now because they don't scale at all without a weapon.
    But conscripts and maxims were untouched so basically USSR infantry prospects are 0. They're back to being unplayably bad, I guess I might as well re-learn the UKF because it looks like USSR will be going bye-bye as a useful faction.

    Man you have made it clear that in your opinion Soviet infantry is bad. Do you actually have to repeat that 30 times in every thread there is, even it is not related to Topic of the tread?

    Why don't start a thread about Soviet infantry and repeat as many times you like there.

    This Thread is about WER

    I wish wehr had such "bad" infantry and " bad T-70"...the amount of soviet whine is hilarious

    Its funny how they think. Paying 60 manpower more for Penals, compared to Grens, gives them the "lawful right" to steamroll all infantry OST can pull out at any time...

    HMG 42 is 260 manpower and a static unit...by Penal standards it should be like a god damn bofors... instawiping infantry inside its cone of fire...and i wont even mention PGrens and their cost/effectiveness ratio...

  • #135
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Hingie said:
    Soviet T1+T2 is a very viable build, especially if you dont get many Conscripts and dont get their Sidegrades. Its not expensive. Soviet T1+T2 is 30 fuel? Combined. And 320 MP. Thats less than Wehr T1+T2. A single Clown car delays your tech more than building both T1 and T2 as Soviets. And yes, Penals and Guards are more expensive than Grens, but you also get more mileage out of them. They have a much greater impact on the Battlefield per Squad when compared to Grenadiers. And generally spewaking you will have a similar amount of Squads afield, as the price difference is not that huge. You dont get 1.5 Grens per Penal Squad. You get 1,25. For Guards its 1,33. Meaning your oponent may outnumber you slightly on the long run. But chances yre your better performing Squads will even this out by simply being... well... better.

    sure tier 1 and 2 fuel wise is cheaper than tier 2 for wehrmacht, but Wehrmacht reach tier 2 already earlier than the soviets reaches tier 3 by like 2 minutes or so.

    Wehrmacht can reach tier 2 in 4 minutes on redball express given you only get one of the two fuel points, where soviets reach tier 3 in like 2 minutes later. if you buy both tier 1 and 2, you not only delay your teching to tier 3 even more (and in the end delay your tier 4 as well) you also lose field presence since your engineer have to stay behind to build not one but two buildings.

    that is mines right there not being planted.

    but then again, you wont reach the required CP to get guards untill you're almost ready or have reached tier 3 so you do have field presence at least as a soviet.

    however, one thing you wont have is vehicles. like, at all, if you want to make an army of penals and guards, and even throw in mortars in the fray. given you can usually only afford guards by the time you reach tier 3 (maybe earlier since you go tier 1 and 2 thus delaying) then most your manpower will go to funding guards im guessing, thus you probably wont have a lot of manpower to spare for any vehicles.

    im thinking anyway. no vehicles for the soviets mean you can stock up on some mortars on your own and some nasty MGs, or even bunkers.

  • #136
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,699

    @Beardedragon said:
    sure tier 1 and 2 fuel wise is cheaper than tier 2 for wehrmacht, but Wehrmacht reach tier 2 already earlier than the soviets reaches tier 3 by like 2 minutes or so.

    Main difference here every units coming out of Weh T2 take damage from small arm fire frontally , every unit coming from T3 take not damage from small arm fire frontally (accept some very lucky shot on the M5...)...

  • #137
    2 years ago

    @Beardedragon said:

    Wehrmacht can reach tier 2 in 4 minutes on redball express given you only get one of the two fuel points, where soviets reach tier 3 in like 2 minutes later.

    Only if Wehr has some secret nazi machine that breaks the space time continuoum...

  • #138
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    Barracks 80 10
    EBP1 100 40
    Mech kompanie 200 20
    EBP2 100 45

                   480  115
    

    Compared to

    Rifle command 160 10
    Support weapon 160 20
    Tankow batallion 240 85

                              560      115
    

    This gives USSR option to deploy T 70 or SU 76 while wehr still has 222s and thats building both intial buildings, not one

    Support armor 240 60 to Sov Mech armor 240 90

    Thats 30 fuel difference of delay IF wehr clings to its teeth and doesnt deploy anything but pak or Pgrens from his kompanie...also SU 76s have higher penn than Stugs and 60 range...lets not make support armor korps the "be and end all", as all you get is overpriced panzer 4 and AT Stug defeted easy by sniping SU 76, AT guns, and even Guards nibbling it slowly...

  • #139
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @MisterBastard said:

    @Beardedragon said:

    Wehrmacht can reach tier 2 in 4 minutes on redball express given you only get one of the two fuel points, where soviets reach tier 3 in like 2 minutes later.

    Only if Wehr has some secret nazi machine that breaks the space time continuoum...

    excuse me`? i just tested it because of another post on redball express. as Wehrmacht i took 1 out of 2 fuels to mimic multiplayer, and i reached Tier 2 in 4 minutes and 22 seconds. just so we're clear, this is the tier where you get halftrack, 222, panzergrens and AT guns, im not talking about tier 3 with tanks.

    so no they dont need a secret nazi machine, they just need to play properly.

    Soviet reaches tier 3 later with a few min a part and thats without taking either AT or molotovs. add that to the cost and the tier 3 is delayed further.

  • #140
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,699

    @Beardedragon said:
    excuse me`? i just tested it because of another post on redball express. as Wehrmacht i took 1 out of 2 fuels to mimic multiplayer, and i reached Tier 2 in 4 minutes and 22 seconds.

    Try that 10 times in games vs players and see how fast you will lose.
    If you spend that much resources in teching you will have no units and no map control...

  • #141
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @Beardedragon said:

    excuse me`? i just tested it because of another post on redball express. as Wehrmacht i took 1 out of 2 fuels to mimic multiplayer, and i reached Tier 2 in 4 minutes and 22 seconds. just so we're clear, this is the tier where you get halftrack, 222, panzergrens and AT guns, im not talking about tier 3 with tanks.

    Soviets have both penals and support units for barely 30 fuel 320 manpower, for wehr you need jsut 100 manpower and 40 fule to even unlock the construction of mech kompanie ...

    All you needed is write down costs of teching for USSR/Germany and conclude your "conclusion" is pure bollocks...

  • #142
    2 years ago

    @Vipper said:

    @Beardedragon said:
    excuse me`? i just tested it because of another post on redball express. as Wehrmacht i took 1 out of 2 fuels to mimic multiplayer, and i reached Tier 2 in 4 minutes and 22 seconds.

    Try that 10 times in games vs players and see how fast you will lose.
    If you spend that much resources in teching you will have no units and no map control...

    i have no freaking clue what you're on about. i always tech up playing as wehrmacht to tier 2 at least when its possible and i tend to have higher win rates than when i play soviets.

    are you saying its the norm that you completely delay tier 2 or so? i dont get it

  • #143
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,699

    @Beardedragon said:
    are you saying its the norm that you completely delay tier 2 or so? i dont get it

    I am saying that just because someone can built a T2 by minute 4:30 does not mean that it actually a good idea. Spending 380 mp and 70 fuel in building and teching mean you have less units on the field for little in return.

  • #144
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @Beardedragon said:
    are you saying its the norm that you completely delay tier 2 or so? i dont get it

    I am saying that just because someone can built a T2 by minute 4:30 does not mean that it actually a good idea. Spending 380 mp and 70 fuel in building and teching mean you have less units on the field for little in return.

    ah i see.

    well that is true, but you still have a slight advantage being able to tech up earlier as wehrmacht. then you can get your AT gun out and rady before soviets start pumping out T70 (which we will prolly see more of after the patch) and su76s.

    a Flamehalftrack wouldnt be overly bad versus a penal guards combination. not at the time you can get the flame halftrack at least. given how fast you can actually get it, and the time it takes to reach the cp requirement to get guards, it wouldnt be uncommon for the enemy to only have 1 guards if any at all, by the time you have produced your first flame halftrack.

    and one guards wont necessarily destroy a flamehalftrack, not if supported anyway.

    of course it can go both ways in this game and the flame halftrack can be tricky. after a certain point of time it does become useless however, like, after they get maybe 2-3 guards + what ever infantry they field.

    if i intend to go for a flamehalftrack id much rather be facing penals than meeting someone who went tier 2 and can get out an AT gun fast.

  • #145
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,847

    So as for reworking wehr infantry to try to, as people fairly urged me to, get back on topic.
    Grens=Grens ought to have their reinforce cost lowered to 28, be given a better vet 1 ablity, and then given a RA bonus when in cover.
    PG-grens ought to be given a cost decrease and/or an RA buff.

  • #146
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited November 2016

    Grens price up to 260, reinforcement to 26mp so the cost correlates with their inital purchase like all other infantry.

    I would get rid of a vet ability, give them the RA bonus in cover at vet 1 and something along the lines of volley fire with the mg-42 to supress flanking maneuvers, and perhaps an active with the g-43 that for like 10 seconds the rifles follow the same stats as the JLI g-43, allowing them to pick of low health squads.

    P-Grens - have just got recieved accuracy buff, for now I would change their cost to 300 and make their reinforcement cost 30mp.

    The reason all high tier Ost players use ostruppen is the fact that any other Ost inf bleed like hell, currently their costs are the same as when the game first came out, only Ost infantry had armor to compensate for small squad size. Reducing the costs to what I've put above puts them in line with the other 4 factions.

    These changes would hold whilst the other western infantry are nerfed as well, hopefully balancing everything out. After that then they could come back to look over how the wehr infatry are performing rather than giving them more buffs now.

  • #147
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,512

    @Farra13 said:
    Grens price up to 260, reinforcement to 26mp so the cost correlates with their inital purchase like all other infantry.

    It doesn't work that way.
    This is how reinforce cost works:
    (X:Y):2 where X is squad cost and Y is maximum total model count in the squad.
    So 260/4/2=32
    32 is most certainly not 26, therefore 26 does NOT correlate in any way to initial purchase.
    There are some exceptions but all except ONE of these exceptions already are on axis side and main line infantry is not nor should be one of these exceptions.

    P-Grens - have just got recieved accuracy buff, for now I would change their cost to 300 and make their reinforcement cost 30mp.

    And which main stats should be nerfed then?
    Because you can't have such low cost and low reinforce cost for 4 man elite squad.

    The reason all high tier Ost players use ostruppen is the fact that any other Ost inf bleed like hell, currently their costs are the same as when the game first came out, only Ost infantry had armor to compensate for small squad size. Reducing the costs to what I've put above puts them in line with the other 4 factions.

    Incorrect.
    High level ost players use osttruppen vs brits only, because you can easily get all the map control, trade efficiently with tommies and outtech brit player easily with ost spam. This has nothing to do with bleed.

    These changes would hold whilst the other western infantry are nerfed as well, hopefully balancing everything out. After that then they could come back to look over how the wehr infatry are performing rather than giving them more buffs now.

    If by "balancing everything out" you mean "axis infantry supremacy again" then you're 100% correct.

  • #148
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited November 2016

    @Katitof said:

    @Farra13 said:
    Grens price up to 260, reinforcement to 26mp so the cost correlates with their inital purchase like all other infantry.

    It doesn't work that way.
    This is how reinforce cost works:
    (X:Y):2 where X is squad cost and Y is maximum total model count in the squad.
    So 260/4/2=32
    32 is most certainly not 26, therefore 26 does NOT correlate in any way to initial purchase.
    There are some exceptions but all except ONE of these exceptions already are on axis side and main line infantry is not nor should be one of these exceptions.

    Exceptions have to be made, a four man squad like grens have only 66% of the durability of a six man squad/ 80% of a five man squad, their recieved accuracy is not great either for a mainline infantry that people rely on to take hits and with only four models it is incredibly vunerable to explosives, currently 30mp for a reinforce is what bleeds a player and why so many choose to use not more than a single squad as they become nothing more than an mp sink.

    Its all well and good to state how cost is measured and calculated through formula, but by that logic increasing a gren squad to a five man squad would mean they are 125% more durable than before, whilst also keeping their reinforce cost the exact same. Add 25% extra cost to make it 300 - 300/5/2 = 30 still. So a larger squad that is more powerful overall should still bleed the exact same as a four man squad? Whilst gaining all the advantages of firepower and durability, all by just paying a small fee when purchased.

    P-Grens - have just got recieved accuracy buff, for now I would change their cost to 300 and make their reinforcement cost 30mp.

    And which main stats should be nerfed then?
    Because you can't have such low cost and low reinforce cost for 4 man elite squad.

    But shouldn't that be where the exceptions you spoke of earlier are made? As durability of a four man squad is so much lower than a five or six man squad, meaning they are just as likely to lose models to explosives as a six man squad but have to pay that much more?

    The reason all high tier Ost players use ostruppen is the fact that any other Ost inf bleed like hell, currently their costs are the same as when the game first came out, only Ost infantry had armor to compensate for small squad size. Reducing the costs to what I've put above puts them in line with the other 4 factions.

    Incorrect.
    High level ost players use osttruppen vs brits only, because you can easily get all the map control, trade efficiently with tommies and outtech brit player easily with ost spam. This has nothing to do with bleed.

    Funny, in the most recent war-paints tournament, Ostruppen - followed by mobile defence was the two main wehr commanders I saw. That was against Sov and USF, as Brits barely played. Hell even the commentators mentioned how so many players use the ostruppen as they don't bleed players like grens.

    These changes would hold whilst the other western infantry are nerfed as well, hopefully balancing everything out. After that then they could come back to look over how the wehr infatry are performing rather than giving them more buffs now.

    If by "balancing everything out" you mean "axis infantry supremacy again" then you're 100% correct.

    "axis infantry supremacy again" ? You mean the table is suddenly going to turn? That Penals, Guards, Rifles, Inf Sections won't walk all over grens and P-grens? Because currently its quite blaringly obvious why Ost win rates are so low with exception to a poor late game, and that is due to a lack of viable infantry, partly due to poor performance, partly due to bleed.

    But this is a thread discussing Wehr infantry rework, so please do explain what changes you think need to be made or not made.

    I am honestly curious, do you not think that Ostheer needs its infantry reworking?

  • #149
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,512

    @Farra13 said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Farra13 said:
    Grens price up to 260, reinforcement to 26mp so the cost correlates with their inital purchase like all other infantry.

    It doesn't work that way.
    This is how reinforce cost works:
    (X:Y):2 where X is squad cost and Y is maximum total model count in the squad.
    So 260/4/2=32
    32 is most certainly not 26, therefore 26 does NOT correlate in any way to initial purchase.
    There are some exceptions but all except ONE of these exceptions already are on axis side and main line infantry is not nor should be one of these exceptions.

    Exceptions have to be made, a four man squad like grens have only 66% of the durability of a six man squad/ 80% of a five man squad, their recieved accuracy is not great either for a mainline infantry that people rely on to take hits and with only four models it is incredibly vunerable to explosives, currently 30mp for a reinforce is what bleeds a player and why so many choose to use not more than a single squad as they become nothing more than an mp sink.

    Grens have ~50% more DPS then these 6 man squads depending on range(goes up to ~150-200% at far vs cons).
    These 5 man squads cost considerably more to field in the first place as well.
    You can't talk durability while ignoring DPS.

    Its all well and good to state how cost is measured and calculated through formula, but by that logic increasing a gren squad to a five man squad would mean they are 125% more durable than before, whilst also keeping their reinforce cost the exact same. Add 25% extra cost to make it 300 - 300/5/2 = 30 still. So a larger squad that is more powerful overall should still bleed the exact same as a four man squad? Whilst gaining all the advantages of firepower and durability, all by just paying a small fee when purchased.

    And their DPS would have to be cut to that of volks level. Unless you really want to have these 300mp grens.

    P-Grens - have just got recieved accuracy buff, for now I would change their cost to 300 and make their reinforcement cost 30mp.

    And which main stats should be nerfed then?
    Because you can't have such low cost and low reinforce cost for 4 man elite squad.

    But shouldn't that be where the exceptions you spoke of earlier are made? As durability of a four man squad is so much lower than a five or six man squad, meaning they are just as likely to lose models to explosives as a six man squad but have to pay that much more?

    That exception was already made for PGrens.
    Further reinforce cost reductions=stat nerfs.

    And again, you completely ignore DPS for whatever reason.
    PGs don't have con DPS you know. Singular PG model have DPS of a whole conscript squad at close range.

    The reason all high tier Ost players use ostruppen is the fact that any other Ost inf bleed like hell, currently their costs are the same as when the game first came out, only Ost infantry had armor to compensate for small squad size. Reducing the costs to what I've put above puts them in line with the other 4 factions.

    Incorrect.
    High level ost players use osttruppen vs brits only, because you can easily get all the map control, trade efficiently with tommies and outtech brit player easily with ost spam. This has nothing to do with bleed.

    Funny, in the most recent war-paints tournament, Ostruppen - followed by mobile defence was the two main wehr commanders I saw. That was against Sov and USF, as Brits barely played. Hell even the commentators mentioned how so many players use the ostruppen as they don't bleed players like grens.

    Mobile defence isn't taken for osttrupen, but for puma.
    Again, osttruppens are picked for easy map control first and foremost, not because grens lack anything-they don't.
    They need vet1 rework and that's it.

    These changes would hold whilst the other western infantry are nerfed as well, hopefully balancing everything out. After that then they could come back to look over how the wehr infatry are performing rather than giving them more buffs now.

    If by "balancing everything out" you mean "axis infantry supremacy again" then you're 100% correct.

    "axis infantry supremacy again" ? You mean the table is suddenly going to turn? That Penals, Guards, Rifles, Inf Sections won't walk all over grens and P-grens? Because currently its quite blaringly obvious why Ost win rates are so low with exception to a poor late game, and that is due to a lack of viable infantry, partly due to poor performance, partly due to bleed.

    But this is a thread discussing Wehr infantry rework, so please do explain what changes you think need to be made or not made.

    I am honestly curious, do you not think that Ostheer needs its infantry reworking?

    Yes.
    Imagine that if you nerf everything on allies side, while buffing everything on axis side the tables will turn.
    That's basic common sense there.

  • #150
    2 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited November 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @MCMartel said:
    Now guards are junk cause their meh, AT is now much wors eand their AI ability is hugely weaker as well, that massive nerf should have come with a cost decrease because they aren't worth close to 330 anymore.
    Penals are garbage now because they don't scale at all without a weapon.
    But conscripts and maxims were untouched so basically USSR infantry prospects are 0. They're back to being unplayably bad, I guess I might as well re-learn the UKF because it looks like USSR will be going bye-bye as a useful faction.

    Man you have made it clear that in your opinion Soviet infantry is bad. Do you actually have to repeat that 30 times in every thread there is, even it is not related to Topic of the tread?

    Why don't start a thread about Soviet infantry and repeat as many times you like there.

    This Thread is about WER

    He does that :neutral:

    I just kinda tune it out...

    Anyway, I'm not really seeing what the solution here is, except for this...

    I would say Grens are pretty good, but everything else is too strong.

    This is properly true, but since basically e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. else knocks the living daylights outta them, I'd really rather just buff the grens instead of having to nerf everything else. Though the double-equip shite has diffinately got to go!

    I agree with the above statement, and changes are being "looked into" with the winter mod.

    Other than that, maybe a slight buff to their lmg, either accuracy, damage or rof. And when i mean slight, i mean slight~ Like 2%. Something that let's them bark and bite back at rifles, and tommies with brens.

  • #151
    2 years ago

    Removing the 2xLMG options for Allied infantry would go a long way towards making Wehr infantry feel less like cannon fodder, especially with better spacing. But it still wouldn't solve some of the other major problems, like the inherent fragility due to squad size and the horrendous MP bleed. And they don't scale at all. (I don't think that giving them armor back would solve that problem, I'd rather see the vet bonuses buffed)

    Why not move the Medkit to T0 for Wehr infantry? It still costs 20 muni and they can't heal themselves, but it would help with the critical early game and make room for some proper vet bonuses...

    Pios could have their repair ability bonus buffed and spread out over Vet 1 and 2, with an additional RA bonus at Vet 2.

    Grens could get a moderate RoF/reload bonus for their rifles that is spread out over all 3 Vet tiers and the additional option of getting a 4xMP40 upgrade for versatility (with better acc than Pios ofc)? Assault grens will probably never be non-doctrinal, are only available to 1 commander.

    PGrens, while equipped with StG 44s stock, are simply too expensive for what they can do atm. Could give them 1xPSchreck instead of 2x to buff them and make the AT option cheaper. Could also make G43 upgrade non-doctrinal for PGrens (without the Interrogation ability though). A 5th squad membe armed with an MP40 (Pio level accuracy, available trough tech) could also help survivability without making them too powerful. They are the best core infantry Wehr has and that is just sad.

    Reinforcement costs for both Grens and PGrens could also be reduced by 2p each. The manpower bleed is just too much for how fragile these units are.

    For how much they cost, Stormtroopers are simply a joke. They lack any AT capability, have the same squad size and cost as PGrens, the same Vet bonuses and only 1 unique ability. They also need to pay 100 muni for their StG 44...Spread out the RA bonus the same way it is done with the PGrens in the Winter Balance mod and make the G43 upgrade non-doctrinal for them (without the Interrogation ability).

    I think this would make Wehr infantry more viable without tipping the scales too much in their favor.

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