[SOV] SU76 is way too effective - it needs a nerf.

#1
2 years ago
SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
edited November 2016 in Balance Feedback

This unit makes the SU85 completely unnecessary. Just lost a game mostly to this spam. OKW feel helpless enough against elite AI units spamming all over the map. This is a joke. Before anyone says I had an MG34 but of course it gets overwhelmed and stolen, as you can see. Too the point.

It pens the Panthers frontal armour faaaaar too easily and it is disgusting. No one can sit there seeing that footage and say otherwise. I'm sorry. The "SU-76M was effective against any medium or light German tank. It could also knock out the Panther tank with a flank shot, but the ZiS-3 gun was not effective against Tiger tanks." Relic does try to base the game on historical accuracy where possible.

Solution: Nerf this unit so it is only effective against medium armour and below. In addition to nerfing its range. Because it feels like it has the same range as an SU85. Its acquisition/rotation rate is also far too quick. And it is too cheap. A lot of problems.

I'm not recording that footage again and didn't realise, hilariously, that it recorded the mic (first time using Nvidia Geforce). So you can hear the anger of the moment as I watched the replay after the match for you entertainment. Please note the fog of war is off and at the point I was aware of him having just the one SU76.

Please tell me I'm not wrong here. Please. I was almost brought to tears.

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Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago

    I think the only fishy thing about it is its range. It has minimal teching costs, easily spammable (and has free barrage), yet because of the range it usually does not needs to put itself to harms way. A spammable light TD that fires fast and has the same range as heavy late tier TDs is just asking for trouble. You can easily use a pair, and from 60 range a medium tank at the same costs will get fired at least twice (for 2x2x120= 480 damage) and will be autopenned before closing in enough that it can even return fire. Once, before its blown by the next shot.. more annoyingly, the situation is the same with even heavies.

    The penetration is fine, its similar to the towed ZIS 3 but it does less damage. If it gets any less, it will become again the rather useless unit it was before its pen was buffed. Its range just needs to go down a bit, preferably to 50. Maybe damage could be increased to normal 160 range, with a similar amount of decrease in RoF, to keep DPS consistent.

  • #3
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    edited November 2016

    I really dislike how the player can get back into the game by getting these units. "Oh I've been fuel starved the entire game, but hang on, infantry blobs and su76 spam can help me! I don't need to back tech or forward tech". If he wanted to pen the panther I'd got for 200 fuel... he should've got anti tank guns. This is too cheap (both in price and as a tactic). OKW cannot do anything similar. They're suppose to have good tanks but few in number. I agree with your observation of the range being too high.

    I actually could've included the footage of the SU76's barrage ability killing my MG34 in one shot yellow cover. Painful.

  • #4
    2 years ago
    I used to believe that the su76 was fine, however i am inclined to agree, however i think @Kurfürst has the right approach.

    My rework would be
    Reduce range to 50
    As compisation increase front armour to 100 ( this gives it a chance to deflect puma shells at max range but more importantly a better than 50% deflection chance vs the 222)
    Change vet 3 from +20 damage (i mean.. What difference does it really make?) to +10 range.
  • #5
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,642
    edited November 2016

    Lucky streak of RNG isn't indicator of balance.
    If someone else will post how Tiger deflects all SU-85 shots, will you advocate for tiger armor nerf? Because that even is fully possible.

  • #6
    2 years ago

    @Katitof said:
    Lucky streak of RNG isn't indicator of balance.
    If someone else will post how Tiger deflects all SU-85 shots, will you advocate for tiger armor nerf? Because that even is fully possible.

    Let's be honest here. That is almost impossible now. Dedicated TD's completely win against the OG Tiger ever since Allied TD's got the buffs. And the point that is most interesting is this is the Panther, which has more frontal armour than the Tiger. And it got penned 5 times head on by an SU76. Severe RNG or some 'small' effective change is needed.

  • #7
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,642

    Actually, as long as the penetration is lower then armor, it is possible.
    However low the possibility is, its still there unless the pen is higher.
    I could do the math, but I'm busy with that exact math at work atm, so google yourself some probability equations, put panther armor and SU pen value where they need to be to get % chance and see how low probability of 5-6 shots penning panther in a row is.

    Using analogical example-you know there is 50% chance for infantry to die while in open topped transport when it dies, right?
    But for the whole squad to die like that is only bit over 6%, yet all of us had that happen multiple times.

    If SU-76 had penetration of 85, this thread would be 100% valid.

    But its a showcase of singular lucky RNG streak, therefore is irrelevant.

    SU-76, just like StuG are very effective, but you need more then 1, 3 of each will counter about anything but super heavy TDs, but that doesn't mean they are OP, it means you haven't adapted to counter the spam, which is a perfect example in the clip above.

  • #8
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    edited November 2016

    I see where you're coming from but I think more people agree it's too much regardless. You know what I thought. I thought, I'd wait the extra minute to get the Panther as the P4/JagP4 would get penned too easily by the single SU76 I knew to be on the field at that time. What a mistake.

    Actually come to think of it I recall this happening with M10's in one of Dane's cast not too long ago.

  • #9
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Su-76 and Stug penetration should go down so that they have around 70-80% chance to penetrate a medium tanks at max range.

    Su-76 can stay at 60 since it has low HP/armor.

    Panther should get a faster firing gun to compensate or bonus damage vs Super heavies.

    Heavy tanks destroyer like M36, Firefly should have the damage reduced to 160 but have bonus damage vs Super heavy tanks.

    Super heavy TD might also see reduction to damage vs medium but increased dmg vs Super heavies.

    Finally JP should either become a medium TD and thus cheaper and less pop, or a heavy TD with more penetration and mayebe bonus damage vs Super heavies. (cloak and veterancy bonuses also should be fixxed)

  • #10
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,642

    @Vipper said:
    Su-76 and Stug penetration should go down so that they have around 70-80% chance to penetrate a medium tanks at max range.

    Su-76 can stay at 60 since it has low HP/armor.

    Panther should get a faster firing gun to compensate or bonus damage vs Super heavies.

    Heavy tanks destroyer like M36, Firefly should have the damage reduced to 160 but have bonus damage vs Super heavy tanks.

    Super heavy TD might also see reduction to damage vs medium but increased dmg vs Super heavies.

    Finally JP should either become a medium TD and thus cheaper and less pop, or a heavy TD with more penetration and mayebe bonus damage vs Super heavies. (cloak and veterancy bonuses also should be fixxed)

    In case of M36 and firefly-what's the point? They need 4 shots to kill meds anyway and ff on top of that have incredibly long reload of ~8s.

    Super heavy TDs, hm, I hate fighting against them, because its a pain in the ass beyond imagination, but them not 2 shooting meds might be overkill at this point.

  • #11
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @Katitof said:
    In case of M36 and firefly-what's the point? They need 4 shots to kill meds anyway and ff on top of that have incredibly long reload of ~8s.

    Super heavy TDs, hm, I hate fighting against them, because its a pain in the ass beyond imagination, but them not 2 shooting meds might be overkill at this point.

    They can also kill a panther/brumbar with 4 shot which is not a super heavy tank or a stug/hezter with 3 shots, a puma/luch with 2.

    The reload of M36 is 5.2-5.8

    Firefly has a reload of 8 but has tulips which could also see a reduction in damage vs mediums allowing them to survive 2 main gun shot + 2 tullips...

    Generally speak imo heavy TDs like SU-85, M36, Firefly should be less effective vs medium and more effective vs super heavies even if that means lowering the damage even bellow 160 or lowering their accuracy, since most of them can hit and penetrate most medium tanks reliably.

    The same way medium TDs like the Stug should less effective vs Super heavies.

  • #12
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    This is a load of nonsense. It's a historical argument thread pretending to be about balance. The SU-76 is perfectly well balanced. It has no turret and very low health/armor so you have to be very careful cause a 222 could take it out. The SU-85 isn't at all replaced by it, because the SU-85 is needed to counter heavies, cause the SU-76 is far too weak to pen heavies usefully.

  • #13
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    i think Katitof has a very good point. at any given time can you have a streak of lucky or in the panthers case unlucky RNG. it happens.

    the SU-76 does not outperform or make the SU-85 obsolete unless you really like a big micro fest with 4 SU-76s doing what 2 SU-85s could otherwise do. they do good in the middle game but when you reach the late game? they dont perform better than SU-85s, and theres usually no reason not to go SU-85 once you reach the late game and heavy tanks rolls out.

    so no the SU85 is not obsolete since we have the SU-76 in the same way that the Panther is not obsolete because wehr have a Stug.

    an enemy that uses 2 Panthers, do you know how many SU-76s you need to effectively engage these? 4, maybe 5. 2 SU-76s for each Panther and maybe a 5th to put the odds on your side if the enemy bounces too many shells. thats an insane Microfest when you could've bought 2 SU-85s instead and something else to support to make you win. it takes off micro pressure from your game when you dont need to use a ton of su76s that dont have a turret so again, no the SU-85 is very welcome'd in the late game.

    the SU-76 is good, sure, but its not a unit that overshadows the su-85 in any way at all.

  • #14
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    This is frankly a criticism for before the SU-85 was updated and made into a proper late-game TD.

  • #15
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    OP, thanks for reminding me why i NEVER go for panthers...meanwhile Cromwells and Churchills bounce reliably panzer 4 and stug shots..."perfectly balanced"...SU 76 should be a light early to mid game dual purpose vehicle "a jack of all trades"...but this is NOT a light TD, this is literally a Nashorn in disguise...

    @Vipper said:

    Generally speak imo heavy TDs like SU-85, M36, Firefly should be less effective vs medium and more effective vs super heavies even if that means lowering the damage even bellow 160 or lowering their accuracy, since most of them can hit and penetrate most medium tanks reliably.

    The same way medium TDs like the Stug should less effective vs Super heavies.

    Agreed it is reasonable both from the perspective of gampley, fluff, but also (dreaded) historical accuracy.

  • #16
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Cromwells and churchills don't reliably bounce anything, have you played the game since the churchill nerf a month after game? The su-76 is a "nashorn in disguise" what utter nonsense, have you even looked at its stats. Frankly, your sarcastic tone and smugness about historical accuracy when you're repeatedly ignoring forum rules (and being historically wrong to boot half the time) is really trying my patience.
    Read the forum rules, then either follow them, or delete your account.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    Cromwells and churchills don't reliably bounce anything,

    Yes, yes they do bounce, not every round, but they do bounce frequently, especially panzer 4, but even stug has issues when RNG penetration saves the Brits butt.

    Last time I played was 3 days ago...vs a brit...so i will belive my eyes and replay far more than your words, herr "MG 42 upgrade is free for ost".

    To be precise the second tank was Churchill AVRE.

    Not even going to bother with the rest of your nonsesne. SU 76 is a cheap AFV with the ability to demolish Panther head on from safe range, cant care less for stats and numbers when we have ingame results speaking loud and clear.

    The SU 76 is already crazy good for making pz 4 and stug into mincemeat, but this...

  • #18
    2 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    If you are losing panthers it means that there are more SU-76 in the field than in the entire war or that you need to reconsider your use of panthers
  • #19
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @pablonano said:
    If you are losing panthers it means that there are more SU-76 in the field than in the entire war or that you need to reconsider your use of panthers

    The point is all five shots went through the panther front from max range...its not the case of him having a panther, being distracted by bouncing shots from the front, while the rest of SUs go and flank the panther, kiling it...

  • #20
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,642

    @MisterBastard said:
    OP, thanks for reminding me why i NEVER go for panthers...meanwhile Cromwells and Churchills bounce reliably panzer 4 and stug shots..."perfectly balanced"...SU 76 should be a light early to mid game dual purpose vehicle "a jack of all trades"...but this is NOT a light TD, this is literally a Nashorn in disguise...

    Please come back from Imaginationland, extended exposure can lead to permanent damage to the brain part responsible for compiling responses based on factual data.
    Cromwell armor is lower then minimal stug penetration.

    SU-76 is literally ZiS-3 mounted on T-70 chasis - its already less effective with only 120 dmg, but there is not a singular balance reason why a unit with exactly the same gun shouldn't be able to engage exact same targets with exact same chances to pen them.

  • #21
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Katitof said:
    SU-76 is literally ZiS-3 mounted on T-70 chasis - its already less effective with only 120 dmg, but there is not a singular balance reason why a unit with exactly the same gun shouldn't be able to engage exact same targets with exact same chances to pen them.

    Having the same gun is historical argument so it hold very little water as argument.

    In addition balance wise, the same weapons have different stat for differently units, from mosin to the stug/pak gun (to come close to your argument) the same weapon have different properties.

    Finally the role of the SU-76 (and of stug) is a counter to medium tanks and it has no reason to be able to penetrate heavy armored vehicles like the Tiger reliably (67%-60%)

    I would also advice everyone to check the "Tank Destroyer Time to Kill stats" where one can see that 2XSU-76 will kill a Tiger faster than 1 SU-85...

    Imo both SU-76 and Stug should have their penetration reduced and their efficiency vs heavy tanks significantly reduced.

  • #22
    2 years ago

    Historical fallacies again?

    The unit is inexpensive and powerful, messing up the overall pacing and economics of the game.

  • #23
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @Katitof said:

    @MisterBastard said:
    OP, thanks for reminding me why i NEVER go for panthers...meanwhile Cromwells and Churchills bounce reliably panzer 4 and stug shots..."perfectly balanced"...SU 76 should be a light early to mid game dual purpose vehicle "a jack of all trades"...but this is NOT a light TD, this is literally a Nashorn in disguise...

    Please come back from Imaginationland, extended exposure can lead to permanent damage to the brain part responsible for compiling responses based on factual data.
    Cromwell armor is lower then minimal stug penetration.

    Yes please do stop cherrypicking one case when i was talking for a pair of AFVS fighting each other. Yes, a Cromwell + AVRE combo will have a better time deflecting incoming shots than stugs and panzer 4s...Cromwell beats the crap out of a panzer 4...

    SU-76 is literally ZiS-3 mounted on T-70 chasis - its already less effective with only 120 dmg, but there is not a singular balance reason why a unit with exactly the same gun shouldn't be able to engage exact same targets with exact same chances to pen them.

    Yep, as seen with kwk/stuk 40 armed tanks and AFVs on the German side (sarcasm off)...for gameplay reasons guns have different stats.

    Finally the role of the SU-76 (and of stug) is a counter to medium tanks and it has no reason to be able to penetrate heavy armored vehicles like the Tiger reliably (67%-60%)

    end of story

  • #24
    2 years ago

    yea end of story.

    the SU-76 is fine as it is, learn to work around it.

  • #25
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    Oh, in that case I'm sure you won't mind if we give the Stug 60 range too. It'll be fine, just learn to work around it.
  • #26
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Hingie said:
    Oh, in that case I'm sure you won't mind if we give the Stug 60 range too. It'll be fine, just learn to work around it.

    if the damage and pricing is balanced accordingly i dont care what you do. maybe more people would buy them then.

    the SU-76 wont win a 1v1 fight against any tank (hell even a 222 can counter it) and it shouldnt given its pricing. it only wins with support, and it dies fast as well.

    the tank is good but it is not difficult to deal with. against anything bigger than a Panzer 4 it will bounce shells very often. this video posted with this thread is a bad example.

    SU-76s do NOT make reliable counters to panthers or late game tanks. the SU85 does.

    besides, the SU-76 can be bought quicker than the Stug (hence its overall lower pen, hp and dmg), and they dont cover the same fields. or rather they do, both of them are transition tanks and TDs, but one is a mid game TD where the other is closer to mid/late game TD rather than mid.

    The SU-76 closes the gap between mid to soviet late game, which arrives earlier than the wehrmacht late game does. The stug needs to be better (and it is, it has more hp,/dmg/armor and is closer to an actual tank than su76) because it needs to cover a later period, from wehrmacht panzer 4 tier to the Panther tier.

    and lets not forget that a soviet player, you can end up in the mid game with no real AT platform at all if you went tier 1 because you cant get an AT gun unless you thus backtrack. once again is the SU76 here to help you.

    Thus it comes down to this tank to make him survive the transition to late game unless he wants to backtrack or buy the flimsy t70 which is more of a recon unit than a dedicated vehicle remover and dies in 2 AT shots.

    (2 scout cars can even take this thing on).

    im not saying you cant advocate buffs for the Stug, this just isnt a "buff the stug" post. im just saying the su76 does not need a nerf given how much weight it needs to carry.

  • #27
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @Beardedragon said:
    SU-76s do NOT make reliable counters to panthers or late game tanks. the SU85 does.

    Unforgettably I have to repeat myself since you repeat the same wrong ideas
    "Finally the role of the SU-76 (and of stug) is a counter to medium tanks and it has no reason to be able to penetrate heavy armored vehicles like the Tiger reliably (67%-60%)

    I would also advice everyone to check the "Tank Destroyer Time to Kill stats" where one can see that 2XSU-76 will kill a Tiger faster than 1 SU-85..."

    besides, the SU-76 can be bought quicker than the Stug (hence its overall lower pen, hp and dmg),

    Again you are mistaken SU-76 has higher penetration than the stug especially at the same range...Its HP and Damage is lower because it is 17% cheaper in fuel not because it comes earlier, and because it it has the added utility of providing indirect fire.

  • #28
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Except that the SU-76's don't reliably pen a tiger. And that 2 SU-76's would be completely ripped apart by a tiger in that time because they have paper thin armor and neglible health. That's balance.

  • #29
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    Except that the SU-76's don't reliably pen a tiger. And that 2 SU-76's would be completely ripped apart by a tiger in that time because they have paper thin armor and neglible health. That's balance.

    60% at range 60 is reliably. Simply visit Mr.Smith page and check the numbers yourself...

    The armor of Su-76 is irrelevant since the Tiger has 100% chance to penetrate vs both SU-76 and Su-85. The HP is in favor of the Su-76 because the Tiger need X3 shots to kill 2 Su-76 and 4 shot to kill a SU-85, so actually the Tiger need 2 extra shot and X150% more time.

    So you are actually mistaken, pls check numbers before posting...

  • #30
    2 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited November 2016

    Eh perhaps it could use a slight nerf, maybe -5 range. But 1 vid where all the shots penetrate says nothing because the penetration is randomized in this game. Also that is 3*70 --> 210 fuel worth of light armoured turretless tankdestroyers with infantery providing vision, imo quite fair that it wins against a single panther. You can also turn it around quickly by just buying some rakketen and laying them invis to cover your panther.

  • #31
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    @Vipper said:

    @MCMartel said:
    Except that the SU-76's don't reliably pen a tiger. And that 2 SU-76's would be completely ripped apart by a tiger in that time because they have paper thin armor and neglible health. That's balance.

    60% at range 60 is reliably. Simply visit Mr.Smith page and check the numbers yourself...

    The armor of Su-76 is irrelevant since the Tiger has 100% chance to penetrate vs both SU-76 and Su-85. The HP is in favor of the Su-76 because the Tiger need X3 shots to kill 2 Su-76 and 4 shot to kill a SU-85, so actually the Tiger need 2 extra shot and X150% more time.

    So you are actually mistaken, pls check numbers before posting...

    Except that an su-85 has substantially more range/sight and so can snipe/kite a tiger much more effectively than su-76's can, and bouncing 40% of shots is hardly reliable.

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