[SOV] SU76 is way too effective - it needs a nerf.

189101113

Comments

  • #362
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @Vipper said:

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    if one su76 dies the other one doesnt really stand a chance in most cases because the p4/tiger/panther/stug has gotten in to range and the remaining su76 (tries) to fall back or it dies almost certanly.

    the su76 are good in numbers that is their strength, one isent really a threat imo

    If one of the dies you still have the other one if the SU-85 dies you have nothing...

    Imo 2 Su-76 are better than SU-85 almost in every situation...PLS simply a agree to disagree and stop pointless debate.

    i dont disagree with you that 2 SU76s are better in general than 1 SU85, or can be at least.

    but im asking you if you think 4 SU76s are better to have than 2 SU85s?

    and then lets take it out of the vacuum. would YOU in your army composition rather have 4 SU76s over 2 SU5s? and do you actually do this? its not about tigers.

  • #363
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,702

    @Beardedragon said:
    i dont disagree with you that 2 SU76s are better in general than 1 SU85, or can be at least.

    but im asking you if you think 4 SU76s are better to have than 2 SU85s?

    and then lets take it out of the vacuum. would YOU in your army composition rather have 4 SU76s over 2 SU5s? and do you actually do this? its not about tigers.

    Since you play mainly 4vs4 it seems you simply do not comprehend 1vs1 or 2vs2 economy. There is little I can debate with you.

    If you do want an answer I usually do not built 4 Su-76 but depending on what I am faced with to I might choose the 4 SU-76 for the simple reason I can barrage the hell out my enemies ATGs. Now if I was facing a KT I would rather have 2 SU-85.
    This debate has become pointless I have little to add pls stop quoting me.

  • #364
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @Vipper said:

    @Beardedragon said:
    i dont disagree with you that 2 SU76s are better in general than 1 SU85, or can be at least.

    but im asking you if you think 4 SU76s are better to have than 2 SU85s?

    and then lets take it out of the vacuum. would YOU in your army composition rather have 4 SU76s over 2 SU5s? and do you actually do this? its not about tigers.

    Since you play mainly 4vs4 it seems you simply do not comprehend 1vs1 or 2vs2 economy. There is little I can debate with you.

    If you do want an answer I usually do not built 4 Su-76 but depending on what I am faced with to I might choose the 4 SU-76 for the simple reason I can barrage the hell out my enemies ATGs. Now if I was facing a KT I would rather have 2 SU-85.
    This debate has become pointless I have little to add pls stop quoting me.

    thats a bit my point given i started a few 2v2 games as of lately.

    no one buys 4 SU76s in 2v2, but its not uncommon to get 2 SU85s if the game progresses long enough. you say you might due to the barrrage, but have you ever actually gotten 4? doesnt sound like it.

    some people do get 4 SU76s in 4v4 games, but only really if they already are winning the game.

    its too difficult to micro 4 SU76s over 2 SU85s due to the units the soviets have and how the faction as whole works.

  • #365
    2 years ago
    Okay i agree to disagree on that matter.
  • #366
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,191
    edited January 2017

    @Vipper said:
    The SU-85 is simply not better (accept if you facing a KT), go read the link...

    I DID!!! My entire point is that the data IN THAT LINK assumes neither target is moving, and that there is absolutely nothing else involved in the fight.

    You're literally saying that because 2 su76s are better at killing a full-health decrewed Tiger than 1 su85 is (equivalent to the testing scenario the coh2.org user did) that means they are better in game as well when the Tiger can move, shoot back, and has an army fighting around it. That's a load of crap.

    Have you ever seen two tanks fight standstill for 20 seconds? Me neither, stop making ridiculous points. There's way more to this game than comparing DPS charts of two units, for christs sake.

  • #367
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,702
    edited January 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    The SU-85 is simply not better (accept if you facing a KT), go read the link...

    I DID!!! My entire point is that the data IN THAT LINK assumes neither target is moving, and that there is absolutely nothing else involved in the fight.

    You're literally saying that because 2 su76s are better at killing a full-health decrewed Tiger than 1 su85 is (equivalent to the testing scenario the coh2.org user did) that means they are better in game as well when the Tiger can move, shoot back, and has an army fighting around it. That's a load of crap.

    Have you ever seen two tanks fight standstill for 20 seconds? Me neither, stop making ridiculous points. There's way more to this game than comparing DPS charts of two units, for christs sake.

    That is actually how you understand what I said.

    I am saying stug and SU-76 have to much penetration especially at max range and are too effective against heavily armored targets.

    I am also saying it harder to kill 2 SU-76, they have more damage and have barrage making better than a single SU-85 in most cases. And that makes teching less rewarding.

    But I have said this things repeatedly. Simply agree to disagree and stop quoting me...

  • #368
    2 years ago
    MeowMeow Posts: 165

    SU-76 vs Su 85
    To conclude i will make in depth analysis of 2 tank destroyers

    SU-76
    280 manpower
    75 fuel
    8 pop
    400 HP
    75/35 Armor , Target size 20

    120 dmg , 60 range , reload 4.15 , accuracy 0.03/0.06 , pen 190

    SU-85
    350 manpower
    130 fuel
    12 pop
    640hp
    12 pop
    140/70 armor , Target size 18

    160 dmg , 60 range , reload 5.53 , accuracy 0.04/0.06 pen 230

    So what does all this mean?
    SU-76 is more cost effective than SU-85 that's fact.
    For same cost of T4 you can get another SU-76 , why bother getting SU-85 then?

    SU-85 get around 310 pen at vet 2 which means its guaranteed penetration vs Tiger or Panther at any range.
    Both get accuracy bonuses and both get decreased reload buffs with vet.

    225 fuel , 840 mp , 24 pop (3 su-76)
    260 fuel , 700 mp , 24 pop(2 SU-85)
    If fuel is not a problem SU-85 is more effective for same pop than SU-76 --->

    To SURVIVE both group of tanks can survive 6 AT shots. Each SU-76 2 and each SU-85 3.
    SU-76 can't survive more than 1 AT shot and 1 other anti vehicle weapon (including infantry AT).
    SU-85 can survive 3 AT shots and 1 infantry held AT shot.
    Also SU-76 is larger target which is just weird 20 vs 18.

    So by watching stats you can clearly see that SU-76 is better on paper when fighting PZ-4s , stugs or other lightly armored vehicles.

    But you won't lose SU-85s so easily and they are better if they stay alive compared to su-76.

    Only drawback getting SU-85 is teching cost , which pays off if you build more than 1 su-85 or get your SU-85 on vet2.
    Also you get access to T-34 , katyusha.

  • #369
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,702

    @Meow said:

    A Su-76 has 400 HP it needs 3 shot to be killed, 3 Su-76 need a total 9 shots die.

    A SU-85 has 640 HP it need 4 shots to be killed, 2 SU-85 need a total of 8 shots to die.

  • #370
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,548
    @vipper what happens when 1 su76 gets hit 3 times vs 1 su85 getting hit 3 times? After repair whats the collective health? You cant pretend that 9 shots will be spread across all 3 su76- it wont. Any player except the ones you seem to play against given your scenarios are going to focus fire for the kill. Also the more vehicles you are controlling at any given time the more likley for error- which the su76 is undeniably less forgiving in. As okw i frequently wolf pack camod raks meaning in an instant i can have a single su76 a single shot away from death and even if one misses im still capable of killing an su76. You cant deny the importance of durability (as much as you try to) with the state of pathing being able to survive an extra shot is paramount, also being able to bounce a shot as well is also a huge plus.

    Said it before and ill say it again, units are more than just their dps.
  • #371
    2 years ago
    MeowMeow Posts: 165

    @Vipper said:

    @Meow said:

    A Su-76 has 400 HP it needs 3 shot to be killed, 3 Su-76 need a total 9 shots die.

    A SU-85 has 640 HP it need 4 shots to be killed, 2 SU-85 need a total of 8 shots to die.

    If you look at it that way , tanks can't run for repairs, they can't be retreated so it makes sense getting SU-76 , wrong--->
    If you want your tanks alive you will get them back , SU-76 will survive 2 shots of any kind , and SU-85 3 AT shots and 1 infantry AT shot

  • #372
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,191

    @Vipper said:

    @Meow said:

    A Su-76 has 400 HP it needs 3 shot to be killed, 3 Su-76 need a total 9 shots die.

    A SU-85 has 640 HP it need 4 shots to be killed, 2 SU-85 need a total of 8 shots to die.

    Su76s can get snared at full health. Su-85s can't, and can self spot. A few of many things your attachment to DPS leaves out of consideration.

  • #373
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,702
    edited January 2017

    @Meow said:
    If you look at it that way , tanks can't run for repairs, they can't be retreated so it makes sense getting SU-76 , wrong--->
    If you want your tanks alive you will get them back , SU-76 will survive 2 shots of any kind , and SU-85 3 AT shots and 1 infantry AT shot

    You made an analysis that had error in it. I simply pointed out them

  • #374
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited January 2017

    Su 76 comes early, has abiltiy to lay down indirect fire slightly, better penn than a Stug, 60 range, a very fast turning speed (222 barely circle jerks it) and is not a glass cannon ppl love to pretend...if it gets shot its time to reverse , same goes for the Stug...

    A pair of Su 76 is much more effective than a single SU 85 in most casses...not just because of ROF and other stats, but because they can mutually support each other with ease, the moment you put even slight distance between them...

    A panzer 4 rushing a SU 76, for example, will suddenly find himself in trouble with the other SU providing flank fire...a single SU 85 wont be able to do that...

  • #375
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 652
    edited January 2017
    P4 suddenly in trouble? Soloing a td with a tank is always a risk when it is supported by other at sources.

    A t34/cromwell/sherman will have the same problem when they flank a stug or jpzr4 wich are supported bye other at.

    That is working as intended. Not imba or op at all.
  • #376
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,702
    edited January 2017

    People are so fixed to prove that SU-85 are better than the SU-76 that miss the point. Su-76 simply should not be able to to Penetrate at Super heavy Tank like the Tiger at range 60 with 60% chance

  • #377
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @Vipper said:
    People are so fixed to prove that SU-85 are better than the SU-76 that miss the point. Su-76 simply should not be able to to Penetrate at Super heavy Tank like the Tiger at range 60 with 60% chance

    why not? it has lower front armor than a Panther. by that right they shouldnt penetrate Panthers either. Tiger 300. Panther 320.

    besides, the tiger is a heavy tank. not really a Kingtiger super heavy one.

  • #378
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 652
    edited January 2017
    I said it earlier the panthers armour wich is higher then tiger tank, the panther is still a medium tank and should be countered by medium tds the su76 in this case.

    This is the reason the su76 has such pen, lower the panthers armour buff it with acc or damage or dps accordingly. The su76 pen can drop and tigers wont be penned so easely with meduim tds.
  • #379
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,191

    @MisterBastard said:
    A panzer 4 rushing a SU 76, for example, will suddenly find himself in trouble with the other SU providing flank fire...a single SU 85 wont be able to do that...

    Everyone here is talking about the su76s vs su85 in terms of heavy armor, not against a P4. That's like saying 2 m10s are better against a p4 than a Jackson. No shit. 2 units are harder to kill than 1 if you are only fighting them with 1 unit. And you guys keep setting up these scenarios in a vacuum to show the 76 is better. In actual gameplay, I'll have some cons w/ AT nades, a zis, or guards around. I'd rather have an SU85 and ANY ONE of those, than 2 su76s and any one of those.

    SU76s can let snared vehicles get away because of their poor penetration. An SU85 is most likely killing a snared panther thanks to its self-spotting and superior penetration/damage.

  • #380
    2 years ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @MisterBastard said:
    A panzer 4 rushing a SU 76, for example, will suddenly find himself in trouble with the other SU providing flank fire...a single SU 85 wont be able to do that...

    Everyone here is talking about the su76s vs su85 in terms of heavy armor, not against a P4.

    Except in the case of Panther there wouldnt be much difference (the SU 76 still has a high chance to penn it even up front).

    The moment a tank dives into a TD, the TD has to run...if a nearby supporting TD starts firing into the tanks flank, now the tank will be forced to retreat, or "die"....i just took the panzer 4 as random example, its a common tank, unlike the panther.

    A pair of SU 76 is the best in terms of performance to teching + purchase cost

    AT guns are not mobile, and have firing arches, SU 85s comes later and costs more...

    Face it ppl, the Su 76 is just way too good...same goes for the stug...

  • #381
    2 years ago
    Its not way to good, its doing its job countering medium tanks this includes the panthers wich have heavy tank armour. That is the problem in this case. The panther needs tweaking with armour and dps and su76 can follow with its pen.

    One su76 is not great it dies in a sneeze. You need 2 to make any noticable impact against the enemy tanks.

    When i dont expect heavys i go 2 or 3 su76s, when i expect heavys i go t34 swarm if possible and add a su85 in the mix.
  • #382
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @MisterBastard said:
    A panzer 4 rushing a SU 76, for example, will suddenly find himself in trouble with the other SU providing flank fire...a single SU 85 wont be able to do that...

    Everyone here is talking about the su76s vs su85 in terms of heavy armor, not against a P4.

    Except in the case of Panther there wouldnt be much difference (the SU 76 still has a high chance to penn it even up front).

    The moment a tank dives into a TD, the TD has to run...if a nearby supporting TD starts firing into the tanks flank, now the tank will be forced to retreat, or "die"....i just took the panzer 4 as random example, its a common tank, unlike the panther.

    A pair of SU 76 is the best in terms of performance to teching + purchase cost

    AT guns are not mobile, and have firing arches, SU 85s comes later and costs more...

    Face it ppl, the Su 76 is just way too good...same goes for the stug...

    well. maybe you should face it instead. face, that you're on a balance forum where people dont necessarily agree with one another. a balance forum where plenty people have given pretty valid reasons for why the SU76 is NOT an OP unit.

    is the SU76 too good? that is most certainly still up for debate.

    but hey, if you want to go SU76 spam then ill be waiting for you in my next 2v2 or 4v4 game. if you truly think its that good that is. however, my own personal experience is that people only do this when they're already winning and thus have options to do what ever they want. in an equal match where its a bit of a stalemate, ive literally never seen SU76 spam being pulled off successfully.

    odds are, once you go past tier 3 to 4 as wehrmacht, your SU76 spam becomes less efficient, not in terms of damage, but i can focus fire your tanks and penetrate with every shot. you can focus fire with yours and some will bounce.

    not only that but your reaction timer with be groggy at best since you have, im assuming 3 SU76s at least. So at least 3 SU76s, in the case where you want to deal with Panthers given 2 Wont cut it before the Panther has taken out one SU76 and retreated safely back.

    and of course, you havent teched up, so no rocket trucks nor T34s for support either.

    also, i dont agree with your sentiment that is stugs being OP too. they perform fine and they perform a different TD role than Panthers (stug - sit, shoot. Panther - aggressive TD, can chase, can take hits- can kill infantry when no tanks around). if anything, its the Panzer 4s thats too expensive and you're still grasping for fuel when a cromwell or what not hits the field. i think thats why many end up buying Stugs first simply to get out a tank early. i tend to save my fuel and hold the line to get the Panzer 4, because i tend to make them stay alive during the entire game.

  • #383
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited January 2017

    @Beardedragon said:

    but hey, if you want to go SU76 spam then ill be waiting for you in my next 2v2 or 4v4 game.

    ... please stop playing those spamfests and start playing 1v1 more...2v2 is at best bearable...above that its one horde of units vs another...

  • #384
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard said:

    @Beardedragon said:

    but hey, if you want to go SU76 spam then ill be waiting for you in my next 2v2 or 4v4 game.

    ... please stop playing those spamfests and start playing 1v1 more...2v2 is at best bearable...above that its one horde of units vs another...

    thats why i mentioned 2v2 as well because i play that too (which i already wrote when you quoted me). The entire point was, i play both 2v2 and 4v4, and in neither mode is SU76 spam viable.

    also, dont tell me what to do. i enjoy a brainless slugfest everynow and then and theres nothing wrong with that. If i like playing 4v4 who are you to tell me to start playing another mode?

    im guessing you cant cope with the aspect of playing as a team, which could be the reason you stick to your 1v1 matches.

    i dont play 1v1, as it gives me nothing at all, and theres no coordination aspect, no team work, no team effort.

    its just my skill versus his.

  • #385
    2 years ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,271 mod

    [moderator input] Every player from any game mode are welcome to the forums, there is no mode that is more "elitist" than others. Of course the game is mainly balanced for 1on1, but it does not mean that other people are not allowed to play other modes to partake in discussions. :)

  • #386
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited January 2017

    @Beardedragon said:

    thats why i mentioned 2v2 as well because i play that too (which i already wrote when you quoted me). The entire point was, i play both 2v2 and 4v4, and in neither mode is SU76 spam viable.

    Because unlike 1v1 you will see multiple (3 or more) panthers just becasue the battle lasts longer, and there are multiple players.

    In those cases you will really neeed a crazy amount of SU 76s to counter them all, in that case i can understand the microing issue...

    1v1, you will see 2 panthers the same time, at best.

    I cant stand the spamfest actually. I had enough of those playing RTS-es since Dune 2...its the small scale squad tactics that makes CoH interesting to me, "less is more".

    @Beardedragon said:
    i dont play 1v1, as it gives me nothing at all, and theres no coordination aspect, no team work, no team effort.
    **its just my skill versus his. **

    Which is exactly why i like 1v1, no BS with multiple connections and player dropout, unit balance or imbalance is crsytal clear, you dont have hordes of them slugging it out, no arty barrages of doom... oh and every unit or small decision matters.

  • #387
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,191
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard said:
    Except in the case of Panther there wouldnt be much difference (the SU 76 still has a high chance to penn it even up front).

    High? It has just under a 60% chance, which is still a far lower chance than the su85, and even if it does pen it does less damage. The 76 is also more likely to miss.

    I play 1v1 plenty (I prefer 2v2 but I don't venture above that) and your assertion that the su85 has little to no use because of 76 spam comes across purely as a complaint from someone who rarely plays soviets. This assertion that you can just spam 76s and completely ignore T4 is ridiculous. That means no TDs, NO medium tanks, and no rocket artillery. Not including early surrenders, I don't think I've ever won a game without building one of those.

    Focusing far too much on cost, and not enough on actual performance. The su76 is an RNG machine, the su85 is a reliable tank destroyer.

  • #388
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard

    it doesnt matter if the game is balanced for 1v1 which everyone is already aware of. Relic still tries to balance the game afterwards to the remaining modes without smashing the 1v1 game too much. and thats fair to ask for, given the fact that the remaining game modes are a part of the match making system as well. they cant be neglected and arent being so.

    having experience from 2v2 and 4v4 provides a more well rounded idea of what can and cannot be done, than a 1v1 experience alone. i for instance knows the limitation of SU76s in 4v4 and in 2v2. your basis is.. made from 1v1 only im guessing, given your trash talk of 4v4 game modes and the way you described 2v2 made it sound like you barely touched it (god forbid you had to use actual teamplay to win).

    1v1 is a good basis basis to have as making your assumptions dont get the wrong idea. but it would be better, if you had more than 1 game mode to base everything on.

    But hey you started the trash talk not me.

    i dont need a team to keep myself afloat, but this game is best played with at least one other, so that factions can synegy with each other. there in lies the team game also. 2v2 games open up more opportunities than 1v1, and even if each player is individually strong, you can still lose if you dont play as a team.

    on the topic itself actually, can i not use my 2v2 and 4v4 game expectations to be a part of this conversation? sure i can because the thread does not specifically state its a 1v1 problem only. ergo, my 2v2 AND 4v4 experience gives me a wider scale of understanding of the SU76 than your meager 1v1 only experience.

    Edit: the quotation system fucks with me atm. cant even mark things with bold.

  • #389
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,847

    SU-76 is fine, it's a well balanced unit that does a thing well with defined and definite weaknesses.

  • #390
    2 years ago
    MeowMeow Posts: 165

    WHY SU-76 feels OP but it's balanced actually.
    Su-76 has 1 job , kill tanks.
    It can be taken out easily by infantry or AT gun or focus fire by 2 tanks.
    Has 120 dmg , can pen all tanks but not quite reliably. It's more efficient than SU-85 but it's weaker in every other aspect.
    When SU-76 delivers it's intended role people get quite upset that its over performing.
    Stacking Su-76 increases their effectiveness a lot , that's why they seem OP , they have 1 job and it's to kill tanks , making more of tanks that kill tanks makes you good at killing tanks ---> logic.
    But that does not change fact it's overperforming if you want to say.
    Only good thing about SU-76 is their DPS vs tanks. When DPS gets too high none of the durability characteristics matter.

    When does that happen?

    You guessed it , when you get a lot of them , at least 3.

    Now when DPS is so huge , they kill stuff fast and it does not matter anymore that they are so easy to kill.

    They die from 3 at shots , 2 AT+1 snare or 1 pz shreck , 2 AT+some arty dmg.

    How to fix this problem of overperforming?

    They are only overperforming when they are massed , i have no idea how to deal with that , share your opinions on how to fix su-76.

    I think its balanced unit with its strengths and weaknesses.

  • #391
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited January 2017

    I just dont understand how a su-76 pens a tiger most of the time and a panther frontal armor...
    There should be a critical point in the usefulness of the su-76, it should be a mobile and pretty good assault gun/tank destroyer with very low armor and hp kind of like a glasscannon for light/mediums but when and if the heavy tanks hit the battlefield the su-76 should lose it's usefulness making the su-85 way more appealing, being historically accurate (immersion factor) and giving the faction what makes it unique "(...) force player to build fresh new units instead of capitalizing on veteran units."

    Dont you think that it is frustrating/unbalanced that a player that saves up and invests in a tiger loses versus cheap 2/3 su-76's from the frontal armor?

Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.