[UKF, OST][ALL modes] Comet armor

#1
2 years ago

From repeated experience when dealing with late-game Comet spam, it appears that the main thing that makes late-game UKF Comet spam unbearable and unstoppable is - apart that they are good against everything is their insane survivabiltiy, which allows them to charge headlong into AT defenses, and backpedal into safety after causing enough MP bleed. Works wonders against OST since OST has to rely on fuel costing tanks for AI, since their infantry suck, while UKF can rely all the time on double Bren Infantry Sections to deal with ANY OST or OKW infantry and can spare the fuel for Comet spam.

The balancing problem is that the Comet isn't putting itself much in harms way by doing so. Nothing in OST's non-doctrinal arsenal but the Panther (IF you teched for it and have one), as expensive itself and locked behind even more expensive teching can reliable put a dent on that tactic. And a dent only, because at a full sec lower RoF with 160 damage per shot you will never kill off a Comet if it wants to retreat and repair (and giving a chase is suicidal not only due to AT ambushes but also because he fires more accurately then your Panther)

The others simply lack the penentration power required, since StuG and PaK has too low Pen to penetrate the 290 frontal armor, and the Comet will usually destroy them well before they can wipe the Comet. TWP consumes munition but can't kill the Comet since it can just backpedal for another a run after repairs. Pz IVs are hapless against it, despite their costs. Which leaves OST again at... having to choose to bleed MP, fuel or munition. After a while Comets will just reach critical mass and overrun you. The situation is akin to Panther spam, except that Panthers do not have AI power and erase Allied squads, AT guns and weapons teams in the process.

The main problem is thus the lack of effective and affordable counters, against a unit that's very fast, good against ALL, needs 5 penetrating shots and has 290 armor that rules out everything but the Panther (and the doctrinal Ele) as effective AT counters. In a UKF tech that is supposed to be about dealing DPS, you have a tank that has more armor, far more versatile and arguably more survivable than Churchills.

The solution lies probably in nerfing the Comet's armor quite a bit so it would leave a good chance for standard OST/OKW AT options to kill it or at least wouldn't almost completely ineffective.... IMO it does not need more than 250-260 to perform its role. Otherwise just rename it a discount Pantiger.

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Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,641
    edited November 2016

    For every comet on the field, you can field panther, which will own it.
    So.
    Why haven't you?
    Its not early game tank really, it costs an arm and a leg and brits are designed to help axis players overcome their late game armor superiority complex.

    Here are affordable counters for you:

    More then 1 PaK.
    Teller mines.
    StuG spam.
    1 to 1 panthers.

    You wouldn't use sherman or T34 vs panther, why do you believe P4 should work vs comet?

    Covering your eyes and pretending counters do not exist does not make it true.

    Post a reply for the best so players better then you can actually help you and point you out on what you do wrong, because judging by the post, boy, there is plenty.

    From what I can tell, you're not using counters in proper amount.
    Aka only 1 stug, only 1 pak.

  • #3
    2 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289
    edited November 2016

    You need to improve on the reading comprehension thing and preferably play OST sometimes.

    Obviously you have never tried to counter Comet spam with the "more than Pak" and "multiple StuGs". The StuG usually ends up firing off a shot or two, then gets flanked. The PaK either gets flanked and then shot/naded or moved down by dual wielding Infantry Sections, OR by the Discount Engineers living in close symbiosis with the Comet.

    And neither works reliably, since just about 2 out of 3 shells can penetrate, and its totally RNG. The Comet will kill them off before they can kill the Comet.

    Panther is more expensive to tech and while it drives off the Comet, it cannot be relied on to kill it. It will just drive it away until it repairs and comes back. Chasing it doesn't really work with a 0.5 moving accuarcy unit chasing a faster 0.75 moving accuracy unit that fires a full second faster, now does it, when the latter is also usually backup up by PIAT wielding Royal Discount Engineers and/or a Firefly. Good way to loose a Panther though.

    Moreover if OST tries to counter the Comet with Panthers, OST will loose out anyway. It won't have anything in the way of armored AI DPS left, to counter Infantry Sections and support its own infantry, which will be otherwise walked over by dual wielding 5 men squads.

    If you want OST having to counter the Comet with the Panther... then buff the Panther's AoE to Comet levels. Simple, isn't it. Could not be that bad, since you have counters like 6 pdr ATG or Firefly.

  • #5
    2 years ago

    So we all agree that the Panther AoE needs to be buffed to Comet levels, right? Since its fine with the Comet, it will be fine with the Panther.

    You have counters, you will just have to use more of them.

  • #6
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,641

    @Kurfürst said:
    So we all agree that the Panther AoE needs to be buffed to Comet levels, right? Since its fine with the Comet, it will be fine with the Panther.

    You have counters, you will just have to use more of them.

    Sure thing, if you slap another 50 fuel on its cost. Actually, it should then cost more then pershing, which got inferior penetration and armor too.

  • #7
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    edited November 2016
    Nah, just ner the Comets AI. If the Panther is fine being crap vs infantry I'm sure you won't mind the Comet being the same. After all, the Comets is much more accurate, is faster and offers more utility than the Panther. Reasons enough for it being as expensive as it is without it also being good vs. Infantry.
  • #8
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited November 2016

    @Kurfürst said:
    So we all agree that the Panther AoE needs to be buffed to Comet levels, right? Since its fine with the Comet, it will be fine with the Panther.

    This logic is not great. You gonna add 30 armor to the comet as well and sync their reload times? What's the point here, that the panther isn't as good? So what? Is their a rule that axis needs to have the best tanks always? Don't think so, the comet costs more and requires a side-tech. It should be better than the panther.

    @Kurfürst said:
    The others simply lack the penentration power required, since StuG and PaK has too low Pen to penetrate the 290 frontal armor, and the Comet will usually destroy them well before they can wipe the Comet. TWP consumes munition but can't kill the Comet since it can just backpedal for another a run after repairs.

    What? The pak40 has a 66% chance of penetrating a comet at max range. By comparison, a zis gun has a 56% chance of penetrating a a panther, and the Brit AT gun has a 59%. I'm not sure what your complaint about TWP is here, you can stun-lock tanks with your AT gun (and btw the AT guns penetration goes up to 400 when you use that ability). That's pretty damn great. Two comets cost an asston of fuel and take a while to get to. If you're allowing comets to get to "critical mass" you're losing the fuel battle.... badly.

    By the way, I wouldn't attack people's reading comprehension when you give them 5 paragraphs to read. We're not getting graded or paid here so don't expect people to put in the effort to read a full post of that size. You misspelled a few words yourself, so I'd stick to the topic instead of people's understanding of English. Shouldn't assume it's everyone here's first language

  • #10
    2 years ago

    I think the Comet is fine as is as long as the Panther recieves the buffs it needs (like main gun blast size and dmg and main gun fire rate). The armor on the Comet is just enough that it doesnt have to worry too much about StuG, ATG, or Schreck spams (basically meaning you're going to need heavier AT which Axis does have available to them late game). The Comet does cost the Brits a lot but I do think that one thing that could be toned down is the speed of the Comet a little bit since it can move around the field very quickly and can fire on the move accurately.

  • #11
    2 years ago
    Comet>>>>>>>>>>>panther. It might not be as durable but axis dont have the TDs that the allies have but it has so SO much more ai and with vet it can counter any non armoured threat with WP. While i do agree the panther needs a buff, i also think the comet needs a nerf, somewhere.
  • #12
    2 years ago

    The comet is not fine as is, I think i'll quote tightrope when he said...

    "Such a versatile tank. Tough armor, Anti-everything, extremely fast, very hard for axis to deal with."

    Something needs to give, it has to much of everything, especially with it's abilities. I mean if you took away it's abilities, it would still be an amazing tank.

    That says a lot right there.

  • #13
    2 years ago

    Well, Brits do lack rocket arty. The comet kind of fills that gap with the white phosphorus. In pairs, It allow the brits to deal with mgs and at guns, but it comes at a munition cost. It can be used for flanking, but losing two comets for an elephant or jagtiger, will put you at a disadvantage.

  • #14
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,034

    It's the versatility. High speed, relatively decent durability, excellent AI damage and abilities, rather good AT utility, high RoF, insanely amazing vet 3 bonus

    When your only reliable option to fight it is a gun crew that can be forced off by a single shell, it's a bit of a problem.

    I say lower the RoF and pen, give the MGs a slight buff. If we're going to insist that the Comet/Firefly combo must exist, then lower the Comets AT utility.

  • #15
    2 years ago

    Taken directly from the patch notes, and i quote:
    "we did see some unrealistic speeds achieved by medium tanks on roads"

    The comet is already fast, like a certain blue hedgehog fast, and it has an ability to further increase its speed.

    It's just one of those tanks you get sick of seeing on the enemy side because of how much it over-performs in every situation. But at the same time you don't blame them for building the, do-it-all OP-meta unit. I thought we were past all this though. That's what early patch notes are for...i find it almost insulting that when the designers were creating the stats for this unit, they blatantly ignored the patch notes and everything the community worked for. The feedback we gave. SO NOW, we have to start all over again.

    I mean, you don't create units like this. Units that have speed, armor, and firepower all at high values. You just don't.

  • #16
    2 years ago

    Comet is not a panther. The comet is keeping the Brits from falling apart. You do not see many Brits choosing anvil, unless they go concentrated barrage.
    You have panthers, stugs, at guns, jp4s, shreks, King tigers, and panzerfausts to deal with them. Brits have a hard time dealing with team weapons without the comet. They can't hit your at/mg line without rocket arty. The land mattress is countered by German rocket arty and 50k bombs. Spearhead doctrine will knock out your mortar emplacements. Speaking of doctrines, you have command panther, command tanks, elephants, ju-87 loiter, Jagtigers, tigers, etc to help you out. I know two of those units are only popular in team games. But team games are the game mode where axis players are complaining about the comet and axis does not suffer from a lower win rate than allies in those game modes.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    Im sure its the vet ability that makes the comet so attractive and not the "tiger and the flash had a baby" nature of the pantherplus... i mean comet.
  • #19
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited November 2016

    @company14u2 said:

    Comet is not a panther. The comet is keeping the Brits from falling apart.You do not see many Brits choosing anvil, unless they go concentrated barrage.
    You have panthers, stugs, at guns, jp4s, shreks, King tigers, and panzerfausts to deal with them. Brits have a hard time dealing with team weapons without the comet. They can't hit your at/mg line without rocket arty. The land mattress is countered by German rocket arty and 50k bombs. Spearhead doctrine will knock out your mortar emplacements. Speaking of doctrines, you have command panther, command tanks, elephants, ju-87 loiter, Jagtigers, tigers, etc to help you out. I know two of those units are only popular in team games. But team games are the game mode where axis players are complaining about the comet and axis does not suffer from a lower win rate than allies in those game modes.

    What you describe is a perfect 2vs 2 or 3 vs 3 late game combined arms between OST and OKW berdering crazy, while ignoring the power of USF and USSR in synergy with UKF...try to play 1 vs 1, Brit vs Ost, and see how well that goes...

    "The comet is keeping the Brits from falling apart." lol sure hahahah.

  • #20
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,641
    edited November 2016

    @MisterBastard said:
    Speaking from 1 vs 1 as OST...Panther is nothing more than a glorified TD which gets swarmed easy by infantry, while priced like a high end medium/heavy tank. The inital idea of a panther as a TD, doesnt hold water.

    And you know why is that?
    Because it takes on ALL allied tanks in game frontally, short of IS-2.
    Anti tank tanks tend not to excel vs infantry, nice you've noticed.
    If you want to kill swarms of infantry, you've got wrong unit, brummbar is for the job.

    It starts with range, it has no range advantage as a TD, so it needs to get close... when you get close you face infantry... panthers are impotent versus infantry (the horrbile ROF doesnt help)...so even early SU 76s have a very good chance to penn it from the front, while staying behind infantry walls Panthers cant really hurt. The last nail in the coffin is the 50 % accuracy penaty on the move...that means you have to get even closer to halt and shoot numerous times at the same enemy AFV without him retreating out of the range, after the first panther shot...or you chase them and miss ...and miss ...and miss...

    Its advantages as a TD are armor, hp, speed, manouverability, penetration.
    Show me single allied TD that would be even close to these 4 stats.
    Denial won't make these stats disappear.
    You know what horrible RoF is? Firefly.
    And its still a vehicle, that means anti tank weapons WILL work against it, so why you're raging on tank destroyers being able to damage tanks again?

    Also, ALL vehicles have accuracy penalties on the move. If you can't press S before a shot, you can't micro tanks properly.

    OST infantry support is largely inferior to Brit tommys.... please dont start with the "use HMG 42" mantra. When Comet arrives, Brits have a good number of 5 man Tommys with brens + ary, they can frontally engage and kill HMG 42 and their supporting infantry using cover, or even sheer firepower...

    Brens are being nerfed(1 per squad), tommy costs and their upgrades make it impossible to have and sustain more then three, where is all your supporting infantry? Vacation at France? And what arty brits have? Base guns? They don't even have mobile mortar without picking a doctrine.

    One more thing - if brit is attacking, does he carry all that cover with him?
    Again, post a replay and we will help you get out of noob zone.

    Comet has better speed, rate of fire, accuracy, and most importantly real Anti infantry capability, unlike the panther...the "cost to effect" between these two goes heavily to the Comet...all you need to do as a Brit is Comet + tommy double bren spam + land matress or some support (AT gun or Firefly) ...Stugs, paks Panthers, no matter how well supported, melt away.

    Comet has worse armor, HP at vet2, penetration, cost.
    Comet is a generalist tank.
    Panther is tank destroyer/hunter.

    Rumble all you want here, they are NOT equivalents of each other, they are both top tier of medium armor, but they do NOT have the same role.

    Again, if everything on your side melts so easily, post a reply, we'll gladly help you stop being a noob.

    Not that the STUG and PAK really threat a Comet, unless the Brit player goes full retard and slams head on with the tank all alone trying to beat 2 stugs and a pak. The combination of speed, AI firepower and armor means Comet will outflank and kill half static OST units with ease, even with just a light support....

    Singular not.
    But if you have singular pak or stug by the time comet arrives, you've lost way before that.

    Again, post a reply and let us help you get out of noob zone.

  • #23
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,641

    @Lazarus said:
    The Brits don't need an uber generalist tank. There's just no call for it.

    They actually do.
    Brits were made from the scratch to match axis late game armor in every way.

    And instead of putting 1 strong anti tank unit and 1 strong anti infantry(because the two didn't existed, unless you wanted to see comet being panther mirror and stock churchill crock), they rolled it into one.

  • #24
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    First off, unless you're playing 4v4, there's no way there's enough fuel to "spam" something as expensive as a comet. And the game is balanced for 1v1. It's a miracle if you can get out 2 comets in a single game at their cost, so I'd say stop complaining about a premium medium actually performing like one.

  • #25
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited November 2016

    I recall that a few months back, a person on this forum did a vacuum test for panther vs comet in a 1v1 duel. Panther won only 6 out of 10 times. So its highly up to RNG to decide. Support is crucial. The price of the comet is between the Ost and OKW panthers, but performs like a pershing, yet non-doc, and not limited to one, and a lot cheaper than a persh.

  • #26
    2 years ago

    @Katitof said:

    @Lazarus said:
    The Brits don't need an uber generalist tank. There's just no call for it.

    They actually do.
    Brits were made from the scratch to match axis late game armor in every way.

    And instead of putting 1 strong anti tank unit and 1 strong anti infantry(because the two didn't existed, unless you wanted to see comet being panther mirror and stock churchill crock), they rolled it into one.

    Then it should be priced like one. Similarly to fuel cost of pershing.

  • #27
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,641

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    I recall that a few months back, a person on this forum did a vacuum test for panther vs comet in a 1v1 duel. Panther won only 6 out of 10 times. So its highly up to RNG to decide. Support is crucial. The price of the comet is between the Ost and OKW panthers, but performs like a pershing, yet non-doc, and not limited to one, and a lot cheaper than a persh.

    Then you probably remember the vacuum tests of comet vs panther vs infantry, in which panther fell short by only seconds.

    OKW mediums and up are NOT priced for performance, they have 25+ fuel tax for super fast teching.

    And if you have EVER played with the pershing, you know that:
    1) Comet most certainly does NOT perform like it
    2) Pershing is overpriced
    3) USF is not designed to have tanks of certain power level, while UKF is all about strong late game armor.

  • #28
    2 years ago

    @Katitof said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    I recall that a few months back, a person on this forum did a vacuum test for panther vs comet in a 1v1 duel. Panther won only 6 out of 10 times. So its highly up to RNG to decide. Support is crucial. The price of the comet is between the Ost and OKW panthers, but performs like a pershing, yet non-doc, and not limited to one, and a lot cheaper than a persh.

    And if you have EVER played with the pershing, you know that:
    1) Comet most certainly does NOT perform like it
    2) Pershing is overpriced
    3) USF is not designed to have tanks of certain power level, while UKF is all about strong late game armor.

    Comets and pershings are similar. Great at and ai, good accuracy on the move, roughly the same armor. If pershing is overpriced, why does Heavy Cav get used the most in 1v1? And many times, solely for the persh. It's not a brawler like the tiger, is2 or KT. The finesse and main gun damage in both pen and splash damage and its excellent accuracy on the move more than make up for it. It's a bleeding/wiping machine.

  • #29
    2 years ago

    Comet spam happens all the time in 2vs2 in fact, if the brit player is not completely deprived of fuel, its enough to save up for the first, and keep it alive which isn't much of a challange since the Comet can just back pedal from any situation and dish out some damage every time, bleeding OST white. Once the second one is on the field its GG unless the Wehr player gets very lucky, which is highly unlikely because the Comet's only reliable counter is the Panther, which comes LATER. 3vs3 and 4vs4 is actually better since if the teammates are decent they can assist with AT and tanks.

    The Brit player can rush Comets easily, since its MP only solutions can dig in and hold the line long enough. This is somewhat of a result of the weakness of the OST mainline infantry, which direly needs backup all the time, meaning teching and other vehicles.

    Skipping ALL buildings with OST and going straight to T4 is the only way to get Panthers at roughly the same time, but in this case the UKF player will have access to EVERY unit bar Bofors/AEC, while for the OST player it is suicide, unless one wants to tell that Pios/MG42s are viable till late game. OST would have no map control without them and no fuel for Panthers. OST's only chance in team games is to win against the Brits by the 30 minute mark, usually with Pz IV spam.

    OKW is a different matter since at least they can rush for the Flak base and get out Jgpz IVs, which at least have decent enough armor AND penetration to deal with 290 armor Comets. OST is not so lucky.

  • #30
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Game is not balanced for 2v2+ it's balanced for 1v1. Where a comet is 1 off, at best you might see 2 in a game. So can we please stop this.

  • #31
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    Game is not balanced for 2v2+ it's balanced for 1v1. Where a comet is 1 off, at best you might see 2 in a game. So can we please stop this.

    Being balanced around 1vs1 does not mean being broken in other modes. And why stop this thread? I someone think that the Comet over-perform one should be able to express his opinion in a thread about Comets....

    Finally try "field recovery operation" and see how one can have multiple Comets

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