[SOVIETS][ALL] Maxims poor performance

#1
2 years ago

Maxims at present are performing very poorly and I guess everyone will accept this. The arc is too small, late suppression, low damage and high setup time and higher cost too (need teching unlike mg42) makes it very less attractive.

Possible solutions

  1. Move maxims to T0, make it 280 MP, revert setup time and increase damage little bit. OR
  2. Move it to T1 and move scout car to T2. Revert set-up time. This is better as Soviet player cannot access Zis if he goes Maxim + Penal spam and bleeds MP heavily. Also Scout car+ Penal spam can be eliminated.

Other suggestions are also welcomed.

I strongly believe that maxims should be buffed to make soviets little strong early on. They are anyway weak late game (AI wise) compared to Axis counterparts.

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Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495

    @Sri_vaka said:
    Maxims at present are performing very poorly and I guess everyone will accept this. The arc is too small, late suppression, low damage and high setup time and higher cost too (need teching unlike mg42) makes it very less attractive.

    Possible solutions

    1. Move maxims to T0, make it 280 MP, revert setup time and increase damage little bit. OR
    2. Move it to T1 and move scout car to T2. Revert set-up time. This is better as Soviet player cannot access Zis if he goes Maxim + Penal spam and bleeds MP heavily. Also Scout car+ Penal spam can be eliminated.

    Other suggestions are also welcomed.

    I strongly believe that maxims should be buffed to make soviets little strong early on. They are anyway weak late game (AI wise) compared to Axis counterparts.

    why would you want the scout car in tier 2? no units spawning from there can get in to it.

  • #3
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    Leave it where it is, fix the clunky motorcycle pathing, buff damage a bit. Also, there's already a maxim thread open on the front page, so I'm fully expecting this one to get locked.

  • #4
    2 years ago

    My only problem with the maxim is that it seems to be useless against vet 3-5 infantry.

    I've had a lot of success dealing with vetted blobs in the past by good MG use, but the maxim keeps letting me down in that department.

  • #5
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    So its a tough bird being a 6 man crew. That level of survivability means the "gun stats" cant be as cost efficient as other machine guns, just cant.

    As balancing acts go you cant increase supression too much because then going t2 leaves you with nothing to deal damage (well, you have cons... And we all know what killers they are..) Amd you cant buff damage too much because then supression has to fall and the soviet lose what area control they have...

    My suggestion is to split the 2 modes somehow.

    Suggestion 1: the toggle
    Default mode would be damage, it would preform slightly better than now but offer no supression, this mode offers solid dps and mobility to support cons.

    Mode 2 is supression mode, this mode deploys the gun such that it cant reposition, without turning off the toggle, grants a larger arc (90%?) And offers better supression but little damage. Retreat overides the toggle (so retreat always retreats no matter the mode)

    Effect:
    You can have an assault mg with draw backs, or a supression platform... With drawbacks.. The 6 man crew should grant enough breathing room for either mode and conscript sandbags allow the defensive mode to well protected.

    Suggestion 2: split the modes
    This one is also a bit... Out there but follows a similar theme as the previous.

    Increase the cost to 300 and reinforcement cost to 25-30 a model BUT the gunner has green cover all the time, increase arc slightly and increase supression.
    (Heres the controversial bit) make the squad move slower. Its a big ole water cooled gun with a big ole shield on 'er right? Well now with it moving slower (and bleeding harder) it cant be used as an agressive attack move wonder weapon.
    Sprint now functions like fired up
    (With fatigue)

    "But dark thats nothing like the other suggestion"
    Stfu and lemme finish!

    For a munition cost, remove the shield (if thats possible to do..) Remove the green cover from said shield
    Remove sprint debuff
    Remove supression
    Buff dps to like... Vickers levels
    Return rotation rate to prenerf levels
    Add ability that provides supression that requires reload at the end, rotation ends ability, still requires reload

    Now you have the option for 2 differently functioning roles, heavy defensive and agressive support dps.
    Price and debuffs dissuade over use of supression but does its jobs well.

    Thoughts?
  • #6
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 691
    edited January 2017
    I dont agree with it being so survivable.

    With its current spacing setup time sector and retreat animation the survivable 6 men are effectivly 4 men.
    When flanked (wich is realy easy atm) the maxim is wiped just as easy ass 4 men mgs.

    It already needs the most mirco (when not a moving) and adding more micro would be bad imo

    At this point the price and preformance are a joke its like your paying for a Ferrari and you get a Renault clio.

    The always green cover for the gunner could be added and unnerf the setup time. Then we have a better balance between its cons and pros at 260mp.

    I like the way your thinking out off the box btw
  • #7
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,020

    If 6 men is 4 men then you don't mind changing it to 4 men anyway.

  • #8
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    edited January 2017

    When I'm playing vs. maxim spam as OKW I find it incredible hard to agree with this assessment. In the later game I guess it's not as effective as a suppression platform - but then; do the Soviets need a super effective mg unit for that? I can't help but think of it as a WW1 weapon.

  • #9
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    It is a ww1 gun, but so is the vickers. None of that matters tho
  • #10
    2 years ago
    Sri_vakaSri_vaka India Posts: 45

    When I play using Lend-lease tactics, I find it easy to tackle with OKW blob due to insta pinning of DSKA. Thus it makes OKW player to use little talent and flank my MG. When it comes to lower rank OKW players, they usually blob Volks with stgs or Sturm pios with shrecks and are not so good at blobbing. Thus Soviet player need a good suppression platform imo.

  • #11
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Has anyone considered using veterancy to subsidise the poor base stats? For example vet1 gives extra damage, vet 2 reduced pack up time, vet 3 increases cone size on top of what is already there. That way they won't be overpowered when spammed early game, but become potent as you move through mid and into late but with the axis factions (namely OKW) having more options in which to deal with them preventing them being OP.

    If they fix squad spacing and the "death loop" first so that vetted maxims can actually survive, see how that affects their performance, then if they are still pretty awful then make the adjustments to vet like I descriped above.

  • #12
    2 years ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 3,080 mod

    If anything the maxim still needs to be nerfed. It is still very much overperforming. It can pivot on the spot, is great in buildings, fast and durable. And the suppression works just fine if you know what to do with it.

    You still get high rank soviet players spamming them because it works. And buffing them would only make that worse. Never mind make it worse for OKW which seriously struggles against maxim spam.

    For anything to be done about the maxim you'd need to overhaul it from the bottom up to be more like a regular MG. Just less good.

  • #13
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    People spam the maxim because its the only way to use them. buy one Maxim or two and that wont really help you a ton unless its an urban stage.

    and they can pivot on the spot? i must have missed that because my maxims always make a U-turn like a car when they have to turn around.

    the only thing keeping them afloat is the fact that they're more duable.

    their low firing arc is no longer off set by a better setup timer, and its suppression rate and damage is meh at best.

    i think @thedarkarmadillo had some interesting ideas though. i like the idea of splitting between damage mode and suppression mode. it gives it utility.

    but i agree its more of an overhaul thats needed, than a flat out buff here or there.

  • #14
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited January 2017

    @Beardedragon said:
    People spam the maxim because its the only way to use them. buy one Maxim or two and that wont really help you a ton unless its an urban stage.

    This is really an invertion of logic, ppl use things because they work, period.
    If someone spams "crappy" units to get great results, they arent crappy,
    Spams dont work if the base stats of units spammed arent worth a damn.

    Highly ranked players and their results are a clear proof the Maxim is not bad.

    On the other hand, everyone spoiled with flamer+penal one click domination will claim anything less is UP.

  • #15
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 691
    edited January 2017

    @Lazarus said:
    If 6 men is 4 men then you don't mind changing it to 4 men anyway.

    then it should be shooting 30mm nuke rounds if it becomes 4 men ;)

  • #16
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard said:

    @Beardedragon said:
    People spam the maxim because its the only way to use them. buy one Maxim or two and that wont really help you a ton unless its an urban stage.

    This is really an invertion of logic, ppl use things because they work, if someone spams "crappy" units to get great results, they arent crappy... highly ranked players and their results are a clear proof the Maxim is not bad.

    On the other hand, everyone spoiled with flamer+penal one click domination will claim anything less is UP.

    People buy many maxims because their damage and suppression AND firing arc is low. you need multiple maxims to cover each other. hell 2 maxims can cover an area as big as one MG42s.

    thats why they are required in numbers.

    unless you can put it in a house, that one maxim isnt going to cover a lot, and its damage and suppression alone doesnt give much either.

    their durbility, however, makes them good once they cover each others asses. they can take a few hits and arent as easy to dislodge with mortar and all that. That durbility makes up for their lower damage once they become great in numbers.

    one maxim? might as well almost not get it unless the stage has corridors or garrisons you can put them in. on open stages they're horrible unless in groups.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited January 2017

    @Beardedragon said:

    People buy many maxims because their damage and suppression AND firing arc is low. you need multiple maxims to cover each other. hell 2 maxims can cover an area as big as one MG42s.

    thats why they are required in numbers.

    Ok lets make it even simpler...can you get the same results spamming cons.

    Everyone knows they suck...sooo, lets spam them, that will suddenly make them good...

    No...ok lets get back to reality.

    Reason why the Maxim is spammed

    • they have a 6 man crew so its much more forgivable than any other HMG

    • they have a fast redeployment and turning rate, making them even better

    • great surpression (surprise, surprise)
      I never regreted capturing and using a Maxim as OST versus my enemy (even with 4 man crews)

    I really fail to see how the maxim is bad...its smaller firing arc is not such a big deal.

  • #18
    2 years ago

    If anything the maxim still needs to be nerfed. It is still very much overperforming. It can pivot on the spot, is great in buildings, fast and durable. And the suppression works just fine if you know what to do with it.

    You still get high rank soviet players spamming them because it works. And buffing them would only make that worse. Never mind make it worse for OKW which seriously struggles against maxim spam.

    For anything to be done about the maxim you'd need to overhaul it from the bottom up to be more like a regular MG. Just less good.

    How can the maxim overperfom when they have, smallest arc, worse surpression, low rof and dps, a deathloop, bad spacing (rifle and bundle gren can one shot a maxim basicly nullifying the 6 men advantidge), no mg teleport on retreat, longer build time.

    Now the positief stuff, 6 men, reinforment cost, setup time (atm the nerfed setup is to slow to make up for all those cons)
    does this look its worth 260mp excluding tech when comparing other mgs? no it doesnt.

    I hate to cheese this unit just as much as the next guy but one on one its really the worst mg wich only shines when spammed, not when microd as intended.

    and yes a redisign is probably best but its already less good in most areas already.

  • #19
    2 years ago
    KoenigKoenig Posts: 70

    @ImperialDane said:
    It can pivot on the spot, is great in buildings, fast and durable.

    Speaking of which - does anyone know if it shifts position inside buildings too?

  • #20
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard said:

    @Beardedragon said:

    People buy many maxims because their damage and suppression AND firing arc is low. you need multiple maxims to cover each other. hell 2 maxims can cover an area as big as one MG42s.

    thats why they are required in numbers.

    Ok lets make it even simpler...can you get the same results spamming cons.

    Everyone knows they suck...sooo, lets spam them, that will suddenly make them good...

    No...ok lets get back to reality.

    Reason why the Maxim is spammed

    • they have a 6 man crew so its much more forgivable than any other HMG

    • they have a fast redeployment and turning rate, making them even better

    • great surpression (surprise, surprise)
      I never regreted capturing and using a Maxim as OST versus my enemy (even with 4 man crews)

    I really fail to see how the maxim is bad...its smaller firing arc is not such a big deal.

    rofl copter.

    most people would never capture a maxim over an MG42 if they were presented with the choice of having to pick one or the other. if a maxim is on the ground, sure, pick it up because it does help. but it doesnt out do an MG42.

    you're right, they're forgiving in the durbility department, but they aint forgiving when it comes to actually positioning them as they dont cover a wide area.

    they have fast redeployment? not really. sure its faster than an MG42s but it was severely nerfed, making it much more difficult to cover areas with a single maxim due to its low firing arc.

    great suppression? not really. if you want great suppression, get an MG42. not only that but the MG42s damage is a lot higher than the maxims. the Maxim also has a smaller aoe suppression circle. meaning enemies can stand closer without getting suppressed. the MG42s area is bigger, and given the sizes of allied infantry, they could be at each side of a building and still get pinned.

    and how can its low firing arc not be a big deal? it can only cover around half the area an MG42 can, and its setup timer no longer offset how low the arc is.

    and why is conscript spam not viable? because everything beats conscripts, except maybe non upgraded grenadiers. Maxims work in a spam because they're duable, so even if one is flanked they're duable enough to survive the time it takes another maxim to turn and shoot their assailants.

  • #21
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited January 2017

    @Beardedragon said:

    most people would never capture a maxim over an MG42 if they were presented with the choice of having to pick one or the other. if a maxim is on the ground, sure, pick it up because it does help. but it doesnt out do an MG42.

    Most ppl think setting a HMG in one position and leaving it there is the proper way to use HMGs...in that case the HMG 42 is better...offensively in the open the maxims are just as good i would dare to say even better , because the setup is fast + 6 man crew.

    The best part is that the Maxim losses its smaller firing arc when garrisoned...

    you're right, they're forgiving in the durbility department, but they aint forgiving when it comes to actually positioning them as they dont cover a wide area.

    Mate, the MG 42 will get easily owherwhelmed in a wide open area, unless you literally clump all your ifnatry together and charge head on and evne then you can get lucky.

    Thee MG 42 needs support in the form of osttruppen, pios etc. the Maxim just needs another Maxim...your theory is really falling apart.

    they have fast redeployment? not really. sure its faster than an MG42s but it was severely nerfed, making it much more difficult to cover areas with a single maxim due to its low firing arc.

    "Severly nerfed" lol so you want it to be instant...nope, its still great thats why ppl use it offensively, the set up actually trumps over the firing arc in many situations.

    great suppression? not really. if you want great suppression, get an MG42. not only that but the MG42s damage is a lot higher than the maxims. the Maxim also has a smaller aoe suppression circle. meaning enemies can stand closer without getting suppressed. the MG42s area is bigger, and given the sizes of allied infantry, they could be at each side of a building and still get pinned.

    Seriously i never had a problem using Maxims, the fact the 42 is better doesnt make Maxim crappy in the supression department, the fact ppl use them offensively proves that.

    and how can its low firing arc not be a big deal? it can only cover around half the area an MG42 can, and its setup timer no longer offset how low the arc is.

    Play more 1v1, its really not that big of a deal with its other pros...your claims really seem to come form the fact you cant surpess all the massed infantry in 3v3 or 4v4...

    and why is conscript spam not viable? because everything beats conscripts, except maybe non upgraded grenadiers.

    Maxims are spammed because they are good, and they work, you just dont want to admit it...the reason they are not spammed more... OPenals.

  • #22
    2 years ago
    MeowMeow Posts: 165

    Maxims are spammed because they are good, and they work, you just dont want to admit it...the reason they are not spammed more... OPenals.

    People don't use maxims because they are good. They use it because its only option if you want HMG. They are forced to work with what they got , that does not mean maxim is good because people use it. Good army needs suppression , you can get it out of maxims or get M5 with quad , which is easily killed by vehicles.

    Getting more maxims eliminates weaknesses of 1 maxim , that is gun arc and suppresion and damage.

  • #23
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495

    @MisterBastard no one spams conscripts and if they do they lose in a mid ranked game and up.

    there are two viable paths: Penals or maxims, because conscripts sure as hell dont give you much in the opening game and mid game.

    why? because conscripts are garbage, they dont work very well. EVERYTHING after X minutes will DESTROY conscripts.

    thats why people spam maxims because their damage makes up for conscripts low damage. that and they dont want to use Penals, is because tier 1 dont give AT nor mortar support.

    as the guy above me wrote, people dont use maxims because they are great. they do it because its the only one they have got in the same way OKW uses the crappy MG34.

  • #24
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited January 2017

    @ImperialDane said:
    If anything the maxim** still needs to be nerfed**. It is still very much overperforming.

    Very much overperforming???? It costs 260mp and comes in tech. The mg42 costs the same, is in the HQ, and is far superior. You're praising the pivot speed of the mg with the narrowest cone in the game. Oh what a luxury it is to instantly be able to turn a maximum of 30 degrees. For goodness sake, how can you possibly think the Maxim is still OP?

    The death loop needs to be fixed. There's no reason for it to be the only MG that doesn't teleport during retreat, its 6-man squad size is offset plenty by its cone and slow time to suppress.

  • #25
    2 years ago
    MeowMeow Posts: 165

    Giving maxim big gun arc would fix the problem of spamming maxims , let me try to explain why.

    People spam maxims because it's not able to cover itself cause of low suppression and gun arc.
    Giving it bigger gun arc would make it more able to cover itself but still can get flanked cause of low suppression , just like MG34. Giving more suppression to maxim would make it OP so we don't want that. Giving more suppression to current maxim would make it OP in houses and it would still be needed to be spammed to fight on open.

    Larger gun arc eliminates need for more maxims , now 1 maxim could cover area of 2 but that area is 2 times less exposed to 1 damage source and 1 suppression source.

    Larger area means less time wasted on relocating. Imagine 2 squads attacking 1 maxim , its doomed no matter what durability it has 6 man or 10 or 2 , it can't engage both squads , durability advantage makes no difference because of gun arc disadvantage.

    So maybe we should test maxims with larger gun arcs and increase their cost to 300 so they can't be spammed easily.
    When maxims durability comes handy you might think?!? Only when they are in building but why is it then?
    Because of gun arc , its large.
    Does it overperforms in buildings? NOOOOOOO , axis have a lot of answers for that , 3 volks squads charging can put it out because of low suppression value , gets killed by mortars , vehicles ---> no AT capabilities (incendiary rounds)

    Why soviets still get more maxims than they need?
    They are forced to do that ----> cons bad , 1 maxim only useful when attacking , and other maxims deny their main weakness

    Even if we increase gun arc i think maxims would be spammed because lack of conscript usefulness.
    But getting more maxims wouldn't make any sense if we do so (buff arc).

  • #26
    2 years ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 3,080 mod

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @ImperialDane said:
    If anything the maxim** still needs to be nerfed**. It is still very much overperforming.

    Very much overperforming???? It costs 260mp and comes in tech. The mg42 costs the same, is in the HQ, and is far superior. You're praising the pivot speed of the mg with the narrowest cone in the game. Oh what a luxury it is to instantly be able to turn a maximum of 30 degrees. For goodness sake, how can you possibly think the Maxim is still OP?

    The death loop needs to be fixed. There's no reason for it to be the only MG that doesn't teleport during retreat, its 6-man squad size is offset plenty by its cone and slow time to suppress.

    When you can A move it. Yeah. Then it doesn't how narrow the cone is when it can deal with a flank from the opposite side in a second. And even if threatened the durability allows it to escape easily.

    Compare it all to an MG42 you want. But an MG42 that is flanked will in 80% of the cases have to retreat. A Maxim can just A-Move.

  • #27
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited January 2017

    @ImperialDane said:
    Compare it all to an MG42 you want. But an MG42 that is flanked will in 80% of the cases have to retreat. A Maxim can just A-Move.

    The .50 cal sets up about 40% faster than the Maxim, has better damage, better suppression, soft AT, and its supported by Riflemen and you're not complaining about that. The only thing the maxim does better is its 6-man size, but it still can't "just a-move" as well as the .50 can.

    Yeah, I'm gonna compare an MG to an MG. What a concept.

  • #28
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited January 2017

    @SkysTheLimit You have to take into account tech time for a 50.cal, it hits the field much later when more options to deal with it are available.

    I think the fixing the maxims spacing and "death loop" would do alot to let veterancy fill the gap of poor base stats that seperate it from other mgs.

  • #29
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268

    @Farra13 said:
    @SkysTheLimit You have to take into account tech time for a 50.cal, it hits the field much later when more options to deal with it are available.

    Fair point, but it doesn't change that the .50 is better at A-moving and just about everything else. It still comes early enough to only be facing light vehicles at most, which it can actually counter almost entirely by itself.

  • #30
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @SkysTheLimit I don't disagree bud, but 1. you have rifles, so spamming 50.cal isn't really necessary. 2. Maxims are far more durable due to squad size, reinforcement cost and suprisingly RA, the 50.cal dies very quickly to small arms fire as the crew has crap target size, whereas with the current conscripts and the maxim durability...

    Problem is, give the maxim too powerful base stats and it will rule the early game; OKW especially have little in the way of answers to a well utilised maxim spam until the luchs arrives. However if you add in things like more damage at vet1, faster pack up time at vet 2 and a wider cone at vet 3, it allows the maxim to scale into the mid/late game without being unstoppable early. First things first though, fix its squad spacing and "death loop", then see how it performs. If it still struggles even when it vets reliably; then consider changes like I suggested.

  • #31
    2 years ago
    jonniesjonnies Posts: 11

    I don't understand why no one contemplates just nerfing its line of sight then buffing it a bit. then you can't spam like 3 -4 in a game with no supporting units..

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