[SOVIETS][ALL] Maxims poor performance

24

Comments

  • #32
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @TheLeveler83 said:

    @Lazarus said:
    If 6 men is 4 men then you don't mind changing it to 4 men anyway.

    then it should be shooting 30mm nuke rounds if it becomes 4 men ;)

    Nah. It should just be 4 men. After all, you said it already has 4 men. So it's not a change.

  • #33
    3 years ago

    haha then it will be effective 2 men with the deathloop

  • #34
    3 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993

    @jonnies said:
    I don't understand why no one contemplates just nerfing its line of sight then buffing it a bit. then you can't spam like 3 -4 in a game with no supporting units..

    Wow, finally, a man with some sense in this room (aside from the armadillo man ofcourse, his suggestions are good too)

    The Maxim is a support gun, so make it so that it requires support to limit the so-called "spam"

    After that, now we can buff it, I support the Armadillo method the most as it solves the problem with the soviets lacking a good non-doctrine "lmg squad" and provides the suppression it deserves

    However, if the that was ignored, then just reverting set up speed would work fine with the LOS gimp.

  • #35
    3 years ago
    Sri_vakaSri_vaka India Posts: 45

    I have a suggestion for maxims problem.

    It can be compare with Rwerfer of OKW (Poor performance, but can work in bundles). So give maxims ability to camouflage just like Rwerfer. Vet1 removes the movement penalty in camo and gives access to sprint. This can result in 1 maxim that can work well without the help of other maxims.

  • #36
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    Poor preformance but goid in bundles is exactly what we have now.
    "Wanna shoot yourself in the neck? Build A maxim (and cons)"
    "Wanna kill off the 10 remaing players in the playerbase? Build nothing BUT maxims and lean on the lactose!"
  • #37
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited January 2017

    The problem is not in the maxim, but the fact ppl refuse to build the other t1 building to get penals at the same time, claiming Soviets somehow cant afford both t1 buildings (lol then i dont know what to call OST teching then, "black hole for resources" maybe ) so they end up relying on cons, or maxim spam.

    The other reason why everyone skipped buildings is becasue the OP-70 , cutting corners was super beneficial.

    Maxim spam wont go away if we flat out buff the maxim, it will become even stronger...and i doubt Relic will invest time and money for some drastic Maxim changes.

    I like the shorter sight line idea though...

  • #38
    3 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 696
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard said:
    The problem is not in the maxim, but the fact ppl refuse to build the other t1 building to get penals at the same time, claiming Soviets somehow cant afford both t1 buildings (lol then i dont know what to call OST teching then, "black hole for resources" maybe ) so they end up relying on cons, or maxim spam.

    The other reason why everyone skipped buildings is becasue the OP-70 , cutting corners was super beneficial.

    Maxim spam wont go away if we flat out buff the maxim, it will become even stronger...and i doubt Relic will invest time and money for some drastic Maxim changes.

    I like the shorter sight line idea though...

    you need 2 maxims to get anything worth wile out of them, 3 is kinda mandatory. Ad penals a 300mp per squad to that mix of cons and maxims, it will bleed you dry you dont retreat 6 men squads with 1 or 2 models losses unless its certain defeat. A zis-3/guards squad is needed pretty soon after this as well adding more mp to the investment.

    All in all it really delays your t3 if you go both t1 and t2 where most units are mediocre at best, the best tier for soviet atm is t3 and backtecking is a shot in the foot as soviet imo.
    If you cant get an advantidge with t3 it will be pretty much be gg imo.

    maxim spam will only go away if the rest of the early game will deliver on their investments, the supposed utility wich is very situational and survivability of the soviet 6 men squads dont make up for the lack in killing power and scalling in most cases.
    Only the current penals are over the top with their vet and flamer atm everything else including the maxim itself (without the cheesy spam and A move) doesnt scale or do its job as well as the axis counterparts (cuzz utility) while costing the same.

    Only after the lacking early game and scaling problem is fixed and the doctrine addiction will the spam of penals and maxims go away.

  • #39
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard said:
    The problem is not in the maxim, but the fact ppl refuse to build the other t1 building to get penals at the same time, claiming Soviets somehow cant afford both t1 buildings (lol then i dont know what to call OST teching then, "black hole for resources" maybe ) so they end up relying on cons, or maxim spam.

    The other reason why everyone skipped buildings is becasue the OP-70 , cutting corners was super beneficial.

    Maxim spam wont go away if we flat out buff the maxim, it will become even stronger...and i doubt Relic will invest time and money for some drastic Maxim changes.

    I like the shorter sight line idea though...

    the fact you think going tier 1 and 2 before 3 is the way forward as soviet, tells me you never play them. in practice, it doesnt work well at all.

    if you dont play them you dont see their side of the story.

    play them before complaining.

  • #40
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited January 2017

    Yep, because investing a whooping 320 manpower and 30 fuel for both tier 1 buildings together will bankrupt a soviet player...lol

    Meanwhile the first escalation phase for OST is 100 manpower 40 fuel , leichte kompanie is another 20 fuel 200 manpower, yep i didnt even include the first barracks..

    And we get what, a 340 manpower unit for 9 popcap, and 4 models already penals can defeat with little effort, a defensive AT gun, and a 251 halftrack made of paper...oh and that 222 POS which is gettign even more expensive and cant even think of competing to light tanks any of the 3 allied factions have...

    L2P and stop relying on penal spam + T-70 rush...oh wait, the penal spam is going to get even stronger now...so you will get everything you need with even less resource investemnt.

  • #41
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard said:
    Yep, because investing a whooping 320 manpower and 30 fuel for both tier 1 buildings together will bankrupt a soviet player...lol

    Meanwhile the first escalation phase for OST is 100 manpower 40 fuel , leichte kompanie is another 20 fuel 200 manpower, yep i didnt even include the first barracks..

    And we get what, a 340 manpower unit for 9 popcap, and 4 models already penals can defeat with little effort, a defensive AT gun, and a 251 halftrack made of paper...oh and that 222 POS which is gettign even more expensive and cant compete to light tanks any of the 3 allied factions have...

    L2P and stop relying on penal spam + T-70 rush...oh wait, the penal spam is going to get even stronger now...so you will get everything you need with even less resource investemnt.

    the only thing you're doing now is explaining throughly to the rest of us that you have no idea how the soviet faction works and that you never really play them.

  • #42
    3 years ago

    Soviet faction...penals + guards + t70 rush ....the end.

  • #43
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard said:
    Soviet faction...penals + guards + t70 rush ....the end.

    Penals cost 300. Guards cost even more and the T70 dies in 2 AT hits.

    needless to say ive beaten this in 2v2 games.

    heard about MGs and AT guns? his entire early game is very weak to MGs.

    the sad thing is, you dont even deny that you never play the soviet faction. how are you ever able to talk balance about a faction you never play?

  • #44
    3 years ago
    You just proved his point...the end.

    You forgot maxim spam cons into su76
    Penals into su76 and t34 spam
    And then there is the lend lease sherman 4c meta.

    I dont use t70 al that much, requires lost of micro at high risk
  • #45
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited January 2017

    Yep because derailing the thread further will prove something...desperate with those indirect ad homines arent we...are we really going to get into all the posible strats instead of just naming the most popular one.

    Fact remains 320 MP 30 fuel is needed for both buildings combined...

  • #46
    3 years ago
    Use a Commader with call-in heavy MG, if you need better stuff. Maxim is fine as it is.

    There are other things have to be changed in Soviet fraction.
  • #47
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    T1+T2 is by no means a poor combo and against OKW can be very powerful, however going T1 into T3 is just so much generally more efficient due to the shock value and bleed a t-70 will inflict, trust me at high level play T1+T2 does have its place, its just rather situational and is reserved for getting that early T-85 by pooling fuel.

    @MisterBastard said:
    Soviet faction...penals + guards + t70 rush ....the end.

    Penals cost 300. Guards cost even more and the T70 dies in 2 AT hits.
    needless to say ive beaten this in 2v2 games.
    heard about MGs and AT guns? his entire early game is very weak to MGs.

    Misterbastard isn't wrong though, this is basically all I see in 2v2 atm (bar partisan spam) when playing as OST; but he missed one crucial component, the 120mm Mortar. Now yes, the mortar itself is pretty crap, but it gives powerful long range smoke, that negates all support team play, hence why penals can just walk over everything without mgs to stop them and that is the main reason as to why they are being nerfed. Hence why SOV has been roflstomping OKW for a while now, lack of supression platform gives penals free reign for the first 8 minutes which equals gg.

    Guard motor is like the tactical support commander of sovs, it just gives them everything they need with guards, mortar, t-85 and mark target.

    So in alot of respects he is right. You can use t1+t2, it does have its place as its low risk and if played well will have a t-85 on the field about the same time as a p4. Not a bad strategy, try it, honestly nothing is more satisfying than smashing his frontline with a full push lead by a suprise t85.

  • #48
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard said:
    Yep because derailing the theread further will prove something...desperate with those indirect ad homines arent we...

    Fact remains 320 MP 30 fuel is needed for both buildings combined...

    i wrote a long rant but i deleted it.

    heres a short version.

    wehrmacht goes tier 2 before soviet can go tier 3, evne if you go directly from 1 to 3 or 2 to 3.
    that means vehicle rush. that also means going tier 1 and 2 as soviet which delays your tier 3 including if you want side upgrades, that you will be in a difficult position to defend yourself.

    you should stick to one tier because

    A: it quickens the road to go tier 3
    B: you have more units to deal with early game vehicle rush because you aint wasting it on buildings. soviets survive by overwhelm. you aint overwhelming anyone by fiddling with tier 1 and 2, you lose out on soldiers if anything.

    Dont underestimate a guy that knows how to micro flame halftracks and 222s. they WILL fuck up your army early game if you are not careful due to their shockvalue. and given you said penals + guards that already left out an AT gun which should otherwise be your best bet versus the flame halftrack at least.

    One flame halftrack alone can take out 3 Penals if it has to, and 222s are so cheap and have such power they can do the same. they all take damage from small arms fire, but not so much that 1 penals equals one 222.

    furthermore 1 guards troop dont defeat 1 Flamehalftrack (uncertain about 222s). sure he can button the vehicle so it cant fire, but it can just retreat back, get a few repairs and come back. all the while the guards guy constantly loses munition on this.

    guards dont defeat 222s either in a 1v1 unless they button. but ones vehicles arent immobilized, and if you have to button 2x 222s? first of all if its early game, you dont even have 2 guards. second of all thats a lot of munition being wasted.

  • #49
    3 years ago
    Soviet t1 and t2 are choices with a weakness to each of them atm.
    And you are forgetting the side techs wich axis get by just teching up.

    Yes axis tech is more expensive but they get lots more out of it then soviet do with theirs.

    Soviet teching is cheaper for a reason.
  • #50
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    Soviet t1 and t2 are choices with a weakness to each of them atm.
    And you are forgetting the side techs wich axis get by just teching up.

    Yes axis tech is more expensive but they get lots more out of it then soviet do with theirs.

    Soviet teching is cheaper for a reason.

    Actually, soviet teching for all tiers+side grades is more expensive then ost tech if we take into account what tech is actually build for both 90% of the time.

    Soviet tech is 1050mp+245fu while ost tech is 1100mp+310fu, HOWEVER ost T4 is premium units tier above soviets, so you can subtract 360mp and 120fu from that for actual tech for games that don't last 1 hour+.

    Sov will have advantage in arty and lights, while ost will have advantage with raw armor, AT and support weapons.

    You could also subtract 250mp and 40 fuel from sov tech for side grades which no one ever uses for how weak they are, however molos will be more popular after WBM.

  • #51
    3 years ago
    The at nade is pretty usefull i always get it, the molotov is quite bad indeed.
  • #52
    3 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited January 2017

    @Farra13 said:
    T1+T2 is by no means a poor combo and against OKW can be very powerful, however going T1 into T3 is just so much generally more efficient due to the shock value and bleed a t-70 will inflict,

    +1
    This... ppl go for the biggest possible short cut to get a T-70 out...and combined with doctrines the USSR gets an early lead.

    @Katitof said:

    Soviet tech is 1050mp+245fu while ost tech is 1100mp+310fu, HOWEVER ost** T4 is premium units tier above soviets,** so you can subtract 360mp and 120fu from that for actual tech for games that don't last 1 hour+.

    This is the lamest excuse ever, the SU 85 is death on tracks, and the most popular SSSR comanders give you extra units like the T34-85, or Easy 8 which are far better than a panzer 4, and replace the T34.

    Brummbar is hit and miss, Panther is a lackluster medium/wannabe TD, and raketen is okish. German last tier units are horribly expensive, too specialized and still perform lackluster...

    1v1... skipping stugs and going for panthers is by no means a sure victory...something true "premium tier untis" would assure.

    ...so you have early game penal + guards domination, followed by T-70 possible "win button". The only time OST could get a lead is with the first Stug or Ostwind, but that means the USSR player failed to use alll the advantages he had over OST the first 15 minutes, with OST clinging to HMG 42s, mines, defensive play, and flat out skill to survive.

  • #53
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard this is how game looks like... for me you opinion is true.

    Ost is really squishy, most back-bones of this fraction become obsolet over the years. But until the StuG G no other unit got any buffs to compensate this situation. Especially versus brits in team-games this is clear.

    BUT as soviet, I build T2 + T3. 2 Maxims, 1. Mortar, 1. Zis. How needs more?

  • #54
    3 years ago
    From t1 or t2 straight to t3 is just the most effective way, you will most likely get outteched otherwise.
    Osther usualy doesnt go the full length to t4 because its to costly for what it delivers according to many.

    Back to topic: if the maxim can be given a bit bigger arc and keep the 6 men but also the rest of the shitty stats and then keep it at 260mp.
    A complete redisign would require even more units to be adressed.
  • #56
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited January 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo is on point as usual. It's not the fuel cost that kneecaps T1 + T2 strats. It's the MP cost. Between sinking what you do in to structures, you need to pay for Penals (their currently live ungodly state is being... currently worked on, so we'll assume they're not kill-all-infantry machines as of Feb), Maxims, ZiS guns, and Mortars. Only the mortars are 240 MP, but getting more than 1 would be a waste, as the single mortar provides the only function you need it to (smoke for your penals). This leaves you with Penals (300MP), Maxims (260MP) or ZiS guns (320MP). Mixing Penals and Maxims on one hand sounds gangsta as anything, but that extra MP you've put in to your structure means that you'd need to build 3 Maxims to get the same number of units out as you would if you had just gone T1 only, all Penals.

    I mean, okay - ZiS gun support is nice and dandy, but for every AT Gun you have that's 1 less Penal squad. You're not going to need it until 7 or 8 minutes anyway, at which point you'll probably already have T3 up so...

    the returns you get from crossteching compared to the cost you invest in MP just isn't worth it.

    As for the Maxims - we've kneecapped them with a triple nerf and they're still spammable as ever. Whatever you think of their current performance, bottom line is they're still effective when spammed. It doesn't matter how crap their suppression is if there's 2 of them, and it doesn't matter how crap their damage is if they can suppress any threats. You don't need to kill them. You just need to stop them shooting back.

    The problem is the 6 man crew. No other MG is remotely as spammable as the Maxim despite all of them having better stats and arcs, and that's because the second there's some pressure from elsewhere (including from artillery) you have to book it or risk dropping your gun. Returning the Maxim to its original pick up/set up stats with a 4 man crew and a bit more damage is what makes the most sense.

  • #57
    3 years ago
    CartoonVillainCartoonVi… Posts: 64
    edited January 2017

    I have said this before and I will say it again: whoever claims maxims are UP has never faced a maxim spammer as OKW in 1v1.

  • #58
    3 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 696
    edited January 2017

    @MisterBastard said:

    Soviet tech is 1050mp+245fu while ost tech is 1100mp+310fu, HOWEVER ost** T4 is premium units tier above soviets,** so you can subtract 360mp and 120fu from that for actual tech for games that don't last 1 hour+.

    This is the lamest excuse ever, the SU 85 is death on tracks, and the most popular SSSR comanders give you extra units like the T34-85, or Easy 8 which are far better than a panzer 4, and replace the T34.

    They should better the 85 requires full tech, i want more choices with medium tanks then just spam 3 to 4 t34/76s as soviet every time and almost certanly lose 600mp/160fuel every dive to destroy say a panther. It works but i want more choices in tactics then swarming in the late game. If they are just another t34/76 in a different skin i wont bother with them.

    as for su85 being death on tracks......yeah it can only snipe vehicles and got nothing against inf and its selfspot has a very clear weakness, the su85 is just a fine TD being better at destroying heavys

    @Lazarus said:

    The problem is the 6 man crew. No other MG is remotely as spammable as the Maxim despite all of them having better stats and arcs, and that's because the second there's some pressure from elsewhere (including from artillery) you have to book it or risk dropping your gun. Returning the Maxim to its original pick up/set up stats with a 4 man crew and a bit more damage is what makes the most sense.

    This would be interesting to see, more effectiveness providing the damage cons lack and still be mobile at the cost of survivability, i would still like to see they drop the price back to 240 mp anyway though. I hope they test this when its the maxims turn in the wbp.

  • #59
    3 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited January 2017

    @Lazarus said:
    @thedarkarmadillo is on point as usual. It's not the fuel cost that kneecaps T1 + T2 strats. It's the MP cost.

    I mean, okay - ZiS gun support is nice and dandy, but for every AT Gun you have that's 1 less Penal squad. You're not going to need it until 7 or 8 minutes anyway, at which point you'll probably already have T3 up so... the returns you get from crossteching compared to the cost you invest in MP just isn't worth it.

    As for the Maxims - we've kneecapped them with a triple nerf and they're still spammable as ever. Whatever you think of their current performance, bottom line is they're still effective when spammed.

    The problem is the 6 man crew. No other MG is remotely as spammable as the Maxim despite all of them having better stats and arcs, and that's because the second there's some pressure from elsewhere (including from artillery) you have to book it or risk dropping your gun. Returning the Maxim to its original pick up/set up stats with a 4 man crew and a bit more damage is what makes the most sense.

    Completely agree with this analysis. A thing that I wan to add is that maxim reinforces at 15mp/model so they bleed really little mp. And that as a side effect of reducing maxim squad size, cons merge and HT reinforcements will get a lot more important/benificial to use.

    Perhaps with the decrease in crew size it should also have higher reinforce cost. And as I said before maybe 5 man could work too, to stay with the soviet durable weapon crew design/flavour. Though I would not be opposed to 4 man maxim either.

    A thing that remains even with this solution is that T1+T2 is still not worth it early game due to lack of mp. Potential fixes could be making soviet HQ upgrades less of an mp sink, reducing cons to 220mp and making penals 270mp again while also nerfing their dps.

    Though on the other hand, it is not really necessary to have soviets start with T1+T2 for the balance of the game. And ocassionally in late game I still tech back to tier2 just to get suppression to more easily hold a VP or for an AT gun if the enemy has a lot of AT himself that hinders the use of TDs.

  • #60
    3 years ago
    maldonmaldon Posts: 55

    have many many hours on coh1 and coh2, but now the 4v4 is impossible with russian and us. Relic does not look the 4v4 but only the 1v1. day after day, defeat defeat and .... defeat. At the end of the game KONI AND JAG and it's over.
    the fun is dead with coh2. and now i look the winter patch and i say it's a best joke for 2017 ah ah.

  • #61
    3 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993

    @maldon said:
    have many many hours on coh1 and coh2, but now the 4v4 is impossible with russian and us. Relic does not look the 4v4 but only the 1v1. day after day, defeat defeat and .... defeat. At the end of the game KONI AND JAG and it's over.
    the fun is dead with coh2. and now i look the winter patch and i say it's a best joke for 2017 ah ah.

    Well I would be more of a "ha ha" than an "ah ah" in terms of laughing.

    In answering your question, 4v4s (an 3v3 to an extent) have always being horribly unbalance. This game was built for 1v1 and 2v2 tactical engagements and not a 4v4 slaughtfest.

    Fret not, as I like to be wild and crazy in 4v4s too. The most simplistic fix on that aspect would be to decrease fuel and muni income in 4v4s only. That will slow down Axis teching and allow the allies breathing room in a 4v4 environmet

    Now please continue talking about Maxims.

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