[OST][ALL] Grenadiers and You: a Forum Balance Think-Tank/Poll

#1
2 years ago
GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
edited February 2017 in Balance Feedback

With the impending WBP coming in many people welcome its changes while others would rather crawl into a ball and die.

However one of the smallest yet biggest changes coming from this patch is the very noticeable improvement in infantry spacing. drastically increase durability in most infantry units, specifically Grenadiers

Which begs the 77 year old question: Do Grenadiers still need a buff?

This Philosophical question has stumped even the likes of Sophocles and Aristotle. So this question has come down to the 2nd best source: The Balance Forums.

NOTE: This is not discussing how the Grenadiers will receive such buffs (upgrades, doctrines, @RiCE 's Lawn Mower). This will be discussing the supposed impact as a whole with these changes.

I have taken the liberty of exploring the 5 opinions that seem to have the largest group of supporters and I will summarize their views in an unbiased manner:

1- Giving Grenadiers a 5th Man
what seems to be the most noticeable in terms of changes, an additional member in the grenadier squad has many advantages on paper: An additional man would increase durability and DPS by 25% on all fronts. easily placing it in direct competition with its main predators in the wild: The Double BAR Hopper Reefermen and the angry Scotsman hiding behind cover.

PROS:

  • Increased Durability and DPS in one package
  • Results will come very quickly
  • less need to always autobuy an LMG
  • Reeferman domination less dominating

CONS:

  • Poor Conscripts, left behind once again ;-;
  • Lines between Ostheer and OKW thinned even further
  • Grenadier Cost increase very likely

2- Increasing Health per Model
My personal take on the situation (so sorry for any bias). By increasing the health of the grenadiers from 80 to 82 per model, through semi complex math, the total effective health of the squad as a whole would increase by about 15%, not as much durability as a 5 man squad, but still a noticeable increase. Since DPS is also unaffected, Grenadiers would still have to fear the Double fun Reaper Man, but not as much. This health buff will also make it so that Grenadier, from full health, will always survive a direct hit katy rocket. So durability from light aoe is greatly increased.

PROS:

  • Increased Durability, moreso vs AoE
  • Line between OST and OKW will not be thinned
  • the smallest change in terms of stats

CONS:

  • Poor Conscripts, left behind once again ;-;
  • Will still struggle vs Reefermen, though it is much more forgiving and balanced.
  • DPS will not change

3- Increase DPS on rifles
THIS IS NOT BUFFING LMG42, well, not directly. Though I have seen some people proposing such a buff. This change, if done correctly, would make Grenadiers very deadly in long range engagements. They will still retain the supposed squishiness from being a 4 man squad. This means that unless reefermen manage to flank or smoke their way to a close enough range, or the Irish Squad manage to also get cover, a 1v1 firefight would put the grenadiers on a moderate advantage.

PROS:

  • Increased DPS means increased danger
  • Line between OST and OKW will not be thinned
  • less need to always autobuy an LMG
  • Further defines grenadier role as long range core infantry

CONS:

  • Poor Conscripts, left behind once again ;-;
  • indirectly buffs LMG42, an already excellent weapon. Thus a LMG42 nerf is likely.
  • Durability will not change

4- Reduce cost/Reinforcement costs of Grenadiers
This change would, in the opinion of the supporters, make the grenadiers worth their cost. The decrease in manpower bleed would also greatly help early game Ostheer. Nothing else to explain on, really.

PROS:

  • Less Manpower bleed = stronger early game
  • Line between OST and OKW will not be thinned
  • The loss of a squad is not as punishing

CONS:

  • Poor Conscripts, left behind once again ;-;
  • Blob potential increased, and now Osttruppen is also irrelevant >:^(
  • Durability and DPS will not change

5- Don't Change anything
This means that the spacing fix enough. This itself is a very excellent argument. As grenadiers are not meant to be used in the same manner as conscripts or Reptilian Men. And you know the saying: "It's not always greener on the other side."

PROS:

  • Nothing changes
  • Any unforseen consequences from the other changes listed will not happen, because nothing has happened
  • Line between OST and OKW will not be thinned
  • Conscripts were not thrown under the bus for once! o:)

CONS:

  • Nothing changes
  • Durability and DPS will not change

Okay now go poll and yell at each other. IT IS YOUR DUTY!

[OST][ALL] Grenadiers and You: a Forum Balance Think-Tank/Poll 57 votes

Grenadiers requires an additional 5th man
22%
thekingsownKurfürstPastulioWiderstreitcaptainjordyszolnok95Mr_RuinTigerhunterHellgateGuruMisterBastardDrakerLanisterMirland 13 votes
Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
21%
JLXLazarusthedarkarmadilloGrittleBaálthazor_Aqua_Fox 2MeowZeUberlizardLaevateinnViperCanelgydh56 12 votes
Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles
24%
HingieeonfigureXutryn_X7SkysTheLimitNoitatohtoriSgt_SchultzBigBearpukan127junaidrarisoyKINGFRIKIPrincessBubblegum1ncendiary_RoundsFarra13 14 votes
Grenadiers need reduced price/reinforcement cost
7%
ARMYguyDurklugle12roMCMartel 4 votes
Grenadiers are perfectly fine
24%
KatitofcapiquaLnk003GenObiElSlayerkingdun3284SneakEyeWilliamPiersonbughunterBoris_yeltsinSri_vakaJonnydodgerSoukinouTheLeveler83 14 votes
Tagged:
«1345

Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model

    2 Extra HP or a small modification to target tables to take like 1 less damage from explosives would be excellent.

  • #3
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    I support the extra health for a few reasons- it improves gren durability, greatly reduces unprimed wipes and it doesnt greatly upset the balance between grens and cons.
  • #4
    2 years ago
    Grens need to stop being wiped by 1 mortar shell thus it is better to make mortar shells work exacly like mines, only be able to kill 2/3 models.
  • #5
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    I support the extra health for a few reasons- it improves gren durability, greatly reduces unprimed wipes and it doesnt greatly upset the balance between grens and cons.

    Any buff to grens WILL affect cons. It is inevitable. Cons must be compensated in one way or another if grens get a buff.

  • #6
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    @1ncendiary_Rounds 2 health isnt that big of a deal i dont think, it will amount to an extra hit worth of health, but that can easily by offset by removing the larger target size on cons back to 1. Then gren ability to tank an extra shot will be made up by hitting a little less when cons close. Since cons are already an issue as far as bleed/usefulness i think that would be a fair trade in the scheme of things
  • #7
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @1ncendiary_Rounds 2 health isnt that big of a deal i dont think, it will amount to an extra hit worth of health, but that can easily by offset by removing the larger target size on cons back to 1. Then gren ability to tank an extra shot will be made up by hitting a little less when cons close. Since cons are already an issue as far as bleed/usefulness i think that would be a fair trade in the scheme of things

    how will 2 health help grens, u can survive indirect fire with a bit of health left, them get wiped on retreat likely by small arms fire. Either you need a considerable increase or more importantly what is being fixed: squad spacing.

  • #8
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model

    To @1ncendiary_Rounds and @thedarkarmadillo, It is stated in the OP:

    @Grittle said:
    By increasing the health of the grenadiers from 80 to 82 per model, through semi complex math, the total effective health of the squad as a whole would increase by about 15%

    It may not seem like alot. But with the power of RNG, accuracy, damage, and target size. It's a very noticable change

  • #9
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    I said DPS, but I'd like it to come in form of better veterancy bonuses. Grens vet is pretty lame, as their rifle-grenade range bonus getting taken away was never replaced with anything.

  • #10
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    @skysthelimit what would increased range on fire arms feel like i wonder....?
  • #11
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,036
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model

    @Grittle said:
    To @1ncendiary_Rounds and @thedarkarmadillo, It is stated in the OP:

    @Grittle said:
    By increasing the health of the grenadiers from 80 to 82 per model, through semi complex math, the total effective health of the squad as a whole would increase by about 15%

    It may not seem like alot. But with the power of RNG, accuracy, damage, and target size. It's a very noticable change

    Surely this can be fixed by a little fudging of the Rec. Acc. stat, thereby leaving Grens durability vs small arms relatively unchanged while making them less prone to exploding like assholes.

    Incidentally, HP per model is my vote too simply because it is the easiest to counterbalance, doesn't make it easier to blob Grens, and solves the problem of getting gibbed like jerks out of the gate.

  • #12
    2 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers requires an additional 5th man

    The trouble with EFA mainline infantries is that Grenadiers do not have the staying power, Cons do not have DPS to scale into the later game.

    You can't fickle with one without adjusting the other.

    The ideal solution for Grens is 5th man - but without a Kar98. They do not need a DPS increase, IMO they would be most ideal with a 5th man with an MP 40 that practically only adds some defensive short firepower to them.

    They need more effective hp to stay longer in frontline and deal damage. Grens have only 350 (320/0.91) whereas the usable effective HP of _all other _mainline starts at about... 420-450.

    Effective HP is either via more models or better RA. But for 4 men squads are only practical on specialist or elite units with very high RA that would completely crush early infantry balance, as the kind of received accuracy you need to make a 4 men unit as viable as other frontline units is.... near Ober levels at 0.7... or Tommies at 0.8 whic gives you some idea how bad it would be.

    But the problem with buffed RA or HP is that... it doesn't cause any bleed, actually it prevents it too much, and it doesn't cause penalty for the player as opposed to loosing models.

    Adjust cost and reinforcement accordingly. Conscripts need a fix at the same time because they are underused for the opposite reason, they can tank hits but their DPS is so marginal they are useless by late game. Giving them a single DP 28 upgrade that would lock out other upgrades like PPsh would bring their firepower up to non-upgraded Grenadier levels, which is actually a decent unit with that sort of tanking characteristics.

  • #13
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited February 2017

    Soviet and Ostheer are far better designed and balanced units. What they need are adusted veterancy bonus and veterancy abilities.

    On the other hand WFA need to be toned to EFA armies and not the other way around.

  • #14
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,641
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine

    @Vipper said:
    Soviet and Ostheer are far better designed and balanced units. What they need are adusted veterancy bonus and veterancy abilities. On the other hand WFA need to be toned to EFA armies and not the other way around.

    That's one thing I can fully agree on with you.
    WBP brings down some EFA units down though and brits pay a LOT to fully upgrade their infantry(in fact, I'd love if other factions had fuel focused upgrades as meaningful as UKF ones, short of nades, which plain suck).

  • #15
    2 years ago
    ElSlayerElSlayer Posts: 230
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine

    Poor Conscripts, left behind once again ;-;

    IMO cons/grens are currently fine and EFA factions in general are fine (with maybe a few exceptions).
    Others should be brought down to cons/grens golden standard in terms of overall performance, but without homogenezation.

  • #16
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    2 HP a model wont stop Rifelmen, Penals and Infantry Sections from waltzing over Grenadiers with impunity. Also, I dont see how a total of 8 HP in a 320 HP squad constitues a 15% increase in durability. That is mathmatically impossible. No matter what other modifiers are applied afterwards, the outcome will always be the same, and that is a 0,25% increase in durability.

    All the while I think a 5th man may lead to problems. Thus Id say give them better DPS. They are already glass, so give them a cannon at least.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @skysthelimit what would increased range on fire arms feel like i wonder....?

    That was tested in early version of the game where G43 had more than 35.
    Fallschirmjager Pathfinders and I&R Pathfinders still get more range via veterancy.

  • #18
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    @vipper but we only had the old soviet back then, maybe with penals, tommies and rifles it may be worth revisiting?
  • #19
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @vipper but we only had the old soviet back then, maybe with penals, tommies and rifles it may be worth revisiting?

    I am just pointing out that there unit with more range. An issue is that more range is not enough without also more sight radius.

    Generally speaking imo units should start being nerfed and not buff anymore since high DPS make the firefight sorter and thus more RNG and less Tactical. Player should allowed time to react.

  • #20
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    Though I am on the fence about what Grens need in terms of buffs to make them more viable in the current game, i would just like to point out that is it probably best to stop comparing their performance relationship to cons and instead look how at how they measure up to WBP Penals. As from what I understand, the Penals are performing the role of mainlines and conscripts are becoming more of a support/utility unit, at least that is what I've gathered from the comments of Mr.smith and the direction the balance team is taking.

  • #21
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    This patch is a bit problematic because its scope only includes Ostheer infantry scaling. So if grens are buffed will Relic now suddenly have time and effort to figure out how to compensate cons? I don't get it: a 2HP increase results in a 15% durability bonus? If it really is that significant how will cons NOT be affected by this? Do you mean 15% only towards explosive and mortar damage or overall durability?

    I think to truly balance infantry we have to adjust ALL mainline inf at the same time. It's about time Relic and the CoH2 community learn its lesson on how to balance. And the point" WFA inf need to be toned down to EFA levels" has been beaten like a dead horse and I'm in complete agreement with but for all this time, Relic just ignored this.

  • #22
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,036
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    15% durability might be a bit misleading - the short answer is shots to kill.

    Most standard small arms use a multiple of 8 as their damage model - by having 82 HP you require a full additional shot even if you dont fully require the damage.

    Its like increasing a vehicles health from 320 to 321. Yes its a 1 HP increase but vs **most** standard AT sources that is a 33% (or is it 50%, its really early) durability increase on account of requiring 3 shots instead of 2
  • #23
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,641
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine

    @Lazarus said:
    15% durability might be a bit misleading - the short answer is shots to kill.

    Most standard small arms use a multiple of 8 as their damage model - by having 82 HP you require a full additional shot even if you dont fully require the damage.

    Its like increasing a vehicles health from 320 to 321. Yes its a 1 HP increase but vs most standard AT sources that is a 33% (or is it 50%, its really early) durability increase on account of requiring 3 shots instead of 2

    This is good explanation of it.
    That's also the reason why all the 2% health bulletins were most overpowered thing in game, second to first iteration of tiger ace only.

  • #24
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    Fantastic explanation by @Lazarus
    A great thing about the extra health bit is that its easily tweaked for small arms by simply making them easier to hit making it completely possible to remove the benifit from conventional combat by still making all the difference in surviving indirect fireout of nowhere. A good example of this is the wehr sniper, he can survive a direct mortar/katy shell but you would have no idea by how fast he drops under fire.
  • #25
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    Also (sprry for double post, i hate people like me but im on mobile and my phone tends to bugger up edits pretty bad) @vipper i think it could work in the spirit of combined arms as well as garrisons. With pios having their great LOS it might bring them into a scout role more often, but most importantly it would give grens a cock slap of a chance vs tommies by being able to just out range them with a bit of work, force them to react for one y'know?
  • #26
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    @thedarkarmadillo

    To answer your question concerning grenadier range, that should follow under the DPS category, in my opinion.
  • #27
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    @grittle i think the 2hp would fix the biggest issue (squad evaporation), but increased dps would/could be the key to another issue (rofl stomped by vanilla WFA allies and never getting a chance to catch up)

    Granted, the latter issue isnt wholey that of grens so we have other options
  • #28
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,641
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @grittle i think the 2hp would fix the biggest issue (squad evaporation), but increased dps would/could be the key to another issue (rofl stomped by vanilla WFA allies and never getting a chance to catch up)

    Granted, the latter issue isnt wholey that of grens so we have other options

    You mean by AoE here, which is fixed in WBP by fixing formations.
    You need to deliberately stack squad in tight cover to endanger them to any kind of OHK wipe by mortar or nade.

  • #29
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    My lawn mower? :-)

    • 5th man and HP boost would be too much imo.
    • DPS boost is a complex thing, what would you buff exactly? accuracy? damage? rof? it might affect weapon upgrades too, or make them less charming.
    • Cost reduction is not needed at all, and there is literally no space for it. The squad is already 240MP. It would make Cons look even worse, and a minor cost reduction would not change anything.

    I would buff Grens veterancy bonuses instead of the stock squad itself.

  • #30
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited February 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @vipper i think it could work in the spirit of combined arms as well as garrisons. With pios having their great LOS it might bring them into a scout role more often, but most importantly it would give grens a cock slap of a chance vs tommies by being able to just out range them with a bit of work, force them to react for one y'know?

    Well one could replace the medic kit ability of the grenadiers with a timed version of USF defensive stances where instead of suppression the Lmg would get extra range (40 maybe?).

  • #31
    2 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058
    Grenadiers requires an additional 5th man

    Over time people agreed that earth is round and that "madmans" were correct. And so you will see that 5 man squads is unavoideble.

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