[OST][ALL] Grenadiers and You: a Forum Balance Think-Tank/Poll

245

Comments

  • #32
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine

    @Pastulio said:
    Over time people agreed that earth is round and that "madmans" were correct. And so you will see that 5 man squads is unavoideble.

    Suuuure it is, juuust like doctrine free conscript potent weapon upgrades.

  • #33
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine
    Its is not neccecary to go 5 men on grens imo their are designed well. Just bring wfa inf down to efa levels.
    But keep the riflemen slightly better cuz of price, dont know if sections should stay the same but keep the bolster upgrade. if they get a nerf maybe add a non doc snare?
  • #34
    2 years ago
    MisterBastardMisterBas… Posts: 285
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers requires an additional 5th man

    5th man, sry guys no amount of small buffs will compensate for the fact you command a frontline squad always with one foot in a grave...it needs an extra man and an extra rifle...at the moment, it neither has staying power, or DPS...

    Relic wont nerf every single Allied infantry just to make Grens viable...too time consuming and opens a boat load of even more additional issues...a nightmare domino efffect.

  • #35
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    @RiCE said:

    • 5th man and HP boost would be too much imo.
    • DPS boost is a complex thing, what would you buff exactly? accuracy? damage? rof? it might affect weapon upgrades too, or make them less charming.
    • Cost reduction is not needed at all, and there is literally no space for it. The squad is already 240MP. It would make Cons look even worse, and a minor cost reduction would not change anything.

    I would buff Grens veterancy bonuses instead of the stock squad itself.

    I agree veterancy is the way to go. They only get 3 performance bonuses (so abilities, recharge time/ability range buffs not being included) with vet: +40% acc. at vet 2, -20% cooldown, -23% received accuracy at vet 3. Cons are in the same boat but got to keep their molly range bonus.

    Rifleman get 4 performance bonuses, and are the best vanilla squad by far anyway. Volks also get 4 even if you only include their first 3 levels of vet, which are barely lesser than the grens and get dispersed over a 5 man squad, AND their non-performance bonus in those first 3 levels is passive healing.

    Tommies have ok vet 1 and 2, but a loaded vet 3, and already get the great cover bonus, AND they arguably have the best upgrades available to them.

    WFA mainlines just scale way better compared to their EFA counterparts. It's worse for Ostheer than Sovs cause they have to deal with 2 WFA mainlines. 3 if you consider that penals were turned into a equivalent of sorts for the soviets, though that's getting fixed.

  • #36
    2 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers requires an additional 5th man

    @MisterBastard said:

    Relic wont nerf every single Allied infantry just to make Grens viable...too time consuming and opens a boat load of even more additional issues...a nightmare domino efffect.

    But it's what they doing in all patches!!

    I'm sick from all nerfs to Allies just to make 4 man squads viable. Just 1 more men to all will solve all problems with damage and durability and AOE damage.

  • #37
    2 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058
    Grenadiers requires an additional 5th man

    @Katitof said:

    @Pastulio said:
    Over time people agreed that earth is round and that "madmans" were correct. And so you will see that 5 man squads is unavoideble.

    Suuuure it is, juuust like doctrine free conscript potent weapon upgrades.

    This will happen eventually too.

  • #38
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 693
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine
    If grens get 5 men cons need to be buffed substantionaly as well and noted in the poll.

    5 man is a overbuff imo. the individual model stats should be looked into then in relation with cons. Its almost the same as toning down wfa inf veterancy bonusses. And dont forget that grens have a different role then most main inf, they are defensive inf meant to augment or be augmented by weapon teams etc.

    Right now ost sov balance is good with a few offenders on both sides. right now cons and grens can go either way at vet 0 ya know balance, but grens actualy scale and cons dont atm.
  • #39
    2 years ago
    PrincessBubblegumPrincessB… Posts: 110
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    Grens were designed as unit they were designed as useful with combined arms blah blah blah...

    Now this issue unfortunately is not working. Why? Because MG-42 is not a best MG in the game, grw34 is not the best early game mortar and sniper without vet1 dies from soviet sniper team. For example USF riflemen are designed to beat any of axis early-game troops at short and middle distance without support and u cannot beat them with the same number of axis squads. MG-42 can be beaten by Vickers or "Maxim" easily when they both have the same cover. So for now grens and MG-42 are both UP. Question is what Relic needs to do than Wehr becomes playful faction normally, without all its toxic minuses. MG-42 must be killing maschine or grens must become a unit, what can be used without support at early game like tommies. MG-42 up will just make MG spam more durable in early game, so it makes no sense here. Of course, grenadier price then must be increased. But now when u are using them, u just play a lot of manpower for underperforming unit what without upgrades has no effectivity against any unit be thrown down to the food chain of mainline infantry. Concripts will not suffer from it, just look at Osttruppen vs Tommies. No one osttruppen-player cries that he has no chance against troops, what are more expensive. And i didnt mention yet nothing about great cons possibilities, what grens or osts will never have.

    Grens require 5th man

    Actually, it is not a very good idea, but here is one option, what i see is good in this case:
    Every faction has a doctrinal issue to remake something in tech. RA, for example, has lend-lease and shermans as very good call-in tank. Brits have acces to tommies with AT rifles. USF has Pershing. OKW has some options too, but wehr has only osstruppen. Why anybody doesnt think about doctrinal 5th man in grens squad in "German infantry doctrine" for example? It is one of the uselesses wehr commanders at the moment, but only this option will make it very very good for teamgames.
    Every faction but wehr has a doctrinal choice, and only wehr reauires doctrines to counter, It is ridiculous.

    "Poor Conscripts, left behind once again ;-;"

    A unit, what is now 200 percent better than grenadiers will not suffer when becomes normally balanced by increasing grenadiers durability. Cons in live version are too OP.

  • #40
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,621
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine

    @LetzteJunker said:
    A unit, what is now 200 percent better than grenadiers will not suffer when becomes normally balanced by increasing grenadiers durability. Cons in live version are too OP.

    You just became living meme.

  • #41
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    @Katitof написал:

    @LetzteJunker said:
    A unit, what is now 200 percent better than grenadiers will not suffer when becomes normally balanced by increasing grenadiers durability. Cons in live version are too OP.

    You just became living meme.

    It is good to be famous even somewhere, isn't it?
    But now grens have only 1 good plus behind cons : LMG42. In other themes cons are too good against grens.

  • #42
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    @LetzteJunker and grenades/snares included in tech, and being able to build bunkers and being able to heal themselves (if wbp passes) amd being able to shoot their targets without first bayonetting them. Grens are rough but aside from power creep and allied indirect they still scale much better than cons whose sole purpose late game is cap and throw AT nades.
  • #43
    2 years ago
    PrincessBubblegumPrincessB… Posts: 110
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    @thedarkarmadillo написал:
    @LetzteJunker and grenades/snares included in tech, and being able to build bunkers

    Rifle grenade is meh as combat ability, it is good only against unskill players or as "single mortar shot from nowhere", molotov is 2nd of the best grenades as anti-harrison. About bunkers all is simple: wehr pionerrs duties are insane.

    Grens are rough but aside from power creep and allied indirect

    I dont understand, may be we are playing different games? When i use grens, i have problems with USF riflemen DPS and concripts, who dont even suffer from casualties and run into close combat with my expensive troops for 10 munitions and kill them, my MG and myself reminding me again who won the war.
    When riflemen comes, i have a sniper, mg and blah-blah, so glorious burger blob is leaving sometimes. But soviets never leave, they just come and kill, because they are cheap and good.
    So USF is OK and UKF is OK for grens, but only osttruppen can save from soviets. So i must use a doctrine when my enemy didnt even thank about what he want to buy to destry me: KV-8 or KV-1? Ridiculous.

  • #44
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    @LetzteJunker i think we ARE playing different games, cons have a larger than average target size until vetted. Grens and cons cost the same, so if they use 240mp and 10mu vs your 240mp they are actually paying more than you are plus needing to micro into position.

    Mgs work wonders against the soviet for a couple of reasons: 1. Soviet squads are 6 men so they get effected by supression harder than smaller squads. 2. They dont have a FRP and smoke is harder to come by than usf meaning its a long trip for a retreating soviet squad.

    But if you are suffering from con spam no amount of balance tweaks is going to fix the problem as it has nothing to do with the game.... Cons spam even with commanders that provide con buffs is notoriously ineffective, especially against ost.

    But thats enough of that as we are dragging off topic.
  • #45
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model

    @RiCE said:
    My lawn mower? :-)

    I originally planned woodchipper, But I don't think your actually a bear.

    • DPS boost is a complex thing, what would you buff exactly? accuracy? damage? rof? it might affect weapon upgrades too, or make them less charming.

    DPS, would be any one of those things, just increased damage output overall on long range engagements.

    I also noted that one of the major cons of this may/would be an unnecessary indirect buff for the LMG42.

    I would buff Grens veterancy bonuses instead of the stock squad itself.

    But what would those specific buffs be?

  • #46
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine
    A 5 men grenadier commander will be great! Ost should not enjoy everything in stock. Just like you cant have non doctrinal mobile artillery as USF and UKF forever. It will be great if relic can earn some money from axis player, so ost player can always go for this doctrine.
  • #47
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    And allow grens to build sandbags. The so called "defensive faction" should have them on grens, when all the other factions get it. Since USF players seem that they can't live without a pershing more than Ost players can't live without a Tiger, even USF has sandbags on mainlines. Pios have insane duties. And even SU has cons repair kits and self repair so their poor repair rates could be improved doctrinally. Ostheer's quality of life is just awful.

  • #48
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    Overall, after playing a large amount of pvp games over several different variations of the WBP mod, I find the spacing adjustments are more than adequate for upping grens survivability to acceptable levels. The only issue I really find is the performance against other mainlines is inadequate when trying to hold the flanks of support teams in the early game, watching rifles and penals close effortlessly without taking much damage and proceed to slaughter the grens with their considerably better close range damage is frustrating, especially since even with perfect positioning the grens fail to discourage them breaking cover and just charging them due to a lack of basic dps on their rifles.

    I would normally argue that increasing their dps would damage the conscript-gren balance but due to Penals now performing as the SOV mainlines and cons being pushed into a support/utility role, i feel its acceptable to make changes to grens rather than RA nerfs to other infantry, as cons will be reworked eventually anyway.

    The only other change I would like to see is the ability to build sandbags (even if that means removing bunkers from grens as they are too expensive and vunerable to act as a viable alternative like the Brit trench), as pios are already struggling with their job as scouts, builders, mine layers, sweepers and capping units leaving sandbags an afterthought and hampering grens ability in the mid-game where green cover is much more rare.

    After that I feel that its more or less buffing other units in the OST roster so they can support the grens properly, seeing a working ostwind and a buffed p4 would do alot to help them combat the western mainlines as they recieve their upgrades and weapons, whilst reductions to the potency of allied indirect would make using mgs and at guns more viable in support without seeing them wiped quickly by such accurate mortar fire and saturated by rockets.

    And if I were to add one more small change, at vet 2 increasing the rifle grenades damage versus units in green cover would be interesting (something like only 25% reduction in damage instead of 50%), as it would allow grens to push opposing units from green cover (like tommies) when in ranged firefights as their lack of mobility makes flanking impossible.

  • #49
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine
    Penals being the main inf? I dont agree. Main inf are versitaile and more cost effective being the backbone, meaning they can do more then just be hard on ai or at.
    Though i agree that it is dependends on what penals recieve when wbp goes live. I would keep them as ai and anti garrison.

    This is still no reason to just buff grens. otherwise cons should already be buffed massively because of volks and sturms mopping the floor with cons bodies all the time.
  • #50
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    @TheLeveler83 This is what I asked Mrsmith on what the balance team was doing in terms of Cons way back in early january, as you can see cons are being pushed into utility, Penals seem to be forming the mainlines by providing field presence, hence the different variations during the WBP to find their feet.

    Of course if the team change their minds, then I would defintly have to rethink my opinion, but currently this is why I think Grens need a small number of tweaks to compete with other mainlines, their relationship with cons as their equivelent seems to be coming to the end.

    @Mr_Smith said:

    @Farra13 said:
    @Mr_Smith Though I can't say I personally agree with pushing Penals into the role of the USSR mainline infantry mainly due to the historical aspect of coh 2 , I understand gameplay wise why the three of you have decided to make such a change.

    My question is that Conscripts are obviously being moved into another role in the teams long-term plan, could you at least give us a hint as to what their purpose will be if Relic green-lights you guys to expand your scope to include them?

    Will they become a utility based support unit to back-up penals and support teams? Or will they fall into the role of Ostruppen by providing screening and field presence? Will doctrines still play a large part in deciding their uses in game?

    Also would you be able to update us as to when v1.4 of the WBM will be uploaded?

    You are correct in assuming that the direction we want to take Conscripts towards is utility infantry and, perhaps, if-vetted, defensive infantry.

    However, in order to hit the right spot with conscripts we will have to figure out a solution that:

    • Cannot be abused using the Merge mechanic
    • Doesn't really buff PPSh Conscripts, which are already damn good

    Ideally we want to keep weapon upgrades outside of Conscript reach, and see if we can achieve this that way.

  • #51
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model

    @kingdun3284 said:
    A 5 men grenadier commander will be great! Ost should not enjoy everything in stock. Just like you cant have non doctrinal mobile artillery as USF and UKF forever. It will be great if relic can earn some money from axis player, so ost player can always go for this doctrine.

    We are not talking about how they should get the buff, we are talking about how the buff would affect balance as a whole.

    this also kinda goes for vet too. but I'm not complaining

  • #52
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers requires an additional 5th man
    Late game survivality is the main problem. So yes 5th man.
  • #53
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine
    Imo it would realy damage ost soviet balance if ost get a 5th man on grens either by upgrade or from the start. It would also make ost mirror okw even more. And would require stuff of ost to be tweaked/nerfed to not overbuff the grens imho.

    It would also start a cycle of x faction has this why cant my faction have it.
  • #54
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    @Tigerhunter said:
    Late game survivality is the main problem. So yes 5th man.

    Better veterancy bonuses helps this too, the 5th man is going too far in my opinion.

    In another thread I proposed weakening their vet 3 bonuses in favor of dispersing the bonuses over vet 2 and 3 with a greater net bonus in the end. This makes grens at both vet 2 and 3 stronger, even though the bonus at vet 3 is technically weaker. Here's a basic example using some of their vet bonuses just to show what I mean:

    Instead of:
    Vet 3: -23% received accuracy and -20% cooldown
    it becomes:
    Vet 2: -15% received accuracy and -15% cooldown
    Vet 3: -15% recieved accuracy and -15% cooldown (-30% total at vet 3 for both as opposed to -23% and -20%)

    Doesn't have to be those numbers, but you get the idea.

  • #55
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    Imo it would realy damage ost soviet balance if ost get a 5th man on grens either by upgrade or from the start. It would also make ost mirror okw even more. And would require stuff of ost to be tweaked/nerfed to not overbuff the grens imho.

    It would also start a cycle of x faction has this why cant my faction have it.

    Thank you for readdressing the possible downsides as listed from the OP.

  • #56
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine

    @Grittle said:

    @kingdun3284 said:
    A 5 men grenadier commander will be great! Ost should not enjoy everything in stock. Just like you cant have non doctrinal mobile artillery as USF and UKF forever. It will be great if relic can earn some money from axis player, so ost player can always go for this doctrine.

    We are not talking about how they should get the buff, we are talking about how the buff would affect balance as a whole.

    this also kinda goes for vet too. but I'm not complaining

    If it is a commander, it would not affect the balance a lot, because you can easily make them arrive later or more expensive.

  • #57
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model

    @kingdun3284 said:

    @Grittle said:

    @kingdun3284 said:
    A 5 men grenadier commander will be great! Ost should not enjoy everything in stock. Just like you cant have non doctrinal mobile artillery as USF and UKF forever. It will be great if relic can earn some money from axis player, so ost player can always go for this doctrine.

    We are not talking about how they should get the buff, we are talking about how the buff would affect balance as a whole.

    this also kinda goes for vet too. but I'm not complaining

    If it is a commander, it would not affect the balance a lot, because you can easily make them arrive later or more expensive.

    If you had read the OP, we are not talking about how the Grenadiers should receive such a buff, We are talking about how that said buff would affect balance, if implemented, as a whole.

    I do not want to look as tiny specific counters like "Oh what if USF goes this commander while Ost goes that commander". I want to see how a 5th man would work vs. the entire spectrum.

  • #58
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588
    edited February 2017

    @Grittle said:

    @RiCE said:
    I would buff Grens veterancy bonuses instead of the stock squad itself.

    But what would those specific buffs be?

    I actually like @SkysTheLimit 's idea.
    Currently Grens receive 25% rec.acc bonus on vet3, which could be changed to 15% vet2 + 15% vet3... or even 15-20.

    Also i was always thinking about Vet3 Grens firing their LMGs while moving. I know it looks a bit strong for first, but i always felt Grens are kinda obsolete with their stationary fighting style. I think it worth a testing.

  • #59
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine

    @RiCE said:

    @Grittle said:

    @RiCE said:
    I would buff Grens veterancy bonuses instead of the stock squad itself.

    But what would those specific buffs be?

    I actually like @SkysTheLimit 's idea.
    Currently Grens receive 25% rec.acc bonus on vet3, which could be changed to 15% vet2 + 15% vet3... or even 15-20.

    Also i was always thinking about Vet3 Grens firing their LMGs while moving. I know it looks a bit strong for first, but i always felt Grens are kinda obsolete with their stationary fighting style. I think it worth a testing.

    Immortal rifles taught you absolutely nothing?
    And if you want fire LMGs on the move, play OKW and build obers.

    The thread is about balance of grenadiers, not "how to make them into most OP inf in game".

    Moreover, nothing can happen to grens without buffing cons in equally powerful way.

  • #60
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    @Katitof said:

    Immortal rifles taught you absolutely nothing?
    And if you want fire LMGs on the move, play OKW and build obers.

    The thread is about balance of grenadiers, not "how to make them into most OP inf in game".

    Moreover, nothing can happen to grens without buffing cons in equally powerful way.

    So how exactly in your translation the redistributing veterancy bonuses between vet2 and vet3 will make Grens immortal? Conscripts receive 40% in vet3... are those immortal too?

    No one every built Obers since relic nerfed the sh*t out of them... on-move firing means nothing for that 400MP manpower sink.

    Anyway, i'm all ears to hear your opinion about the topic...

  • #61
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine

    @RiCE said:

    @Katitof said:

    Immortal rifles taught you absolutely nothing?
    And if you want fire LMGs on the move, play OKW and build obers.

    The thread is about balance of grenadiers, not "how to make them into most OP inf in game".

    Moreover, nothing can happen to grens without buffing cons in equally powerful way.

    So how exactly in your translation the redistributing veterancy bonuses between vet2 and vet3 will make Grens immortal?

    No one every built Obers since relic nerfed the sh*t out of them... on-move firing means nothing for that 400MP manpower sink.

    Anyway, i'm all ears to hear your opinion about the topic...

    Open calculator.
    Input current value multiplied by their existing rec acc modifier.
    Input values you've suggested.
    Pick the jaw off the floor.

    Conscripts receive 40% in vet3... are those immortal too?

    Do conscripts have 20 DPS at vet3 at long range?
    And they are pretty damn durable at vet3, yes.
    Only reason why that durability does not translate to overpowered squad is because they fight with clubs, which don't even hit that hard.

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