(All modes) Axis Demolition Charge Vote

#1
2 months ago
eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 379
edited February 12 in Balance Feedback

It's been talked about sporadically here and there, but i would like to see how the community feels; as a whole, about axis having demolition charges. With all of the built-in (non doctrinal) abilities the allies have access to such as brace, critical repair, satchel charges, demolition charges, and built-in smoke on several units. Axis feel very empty utility wise.

Just a simple, no nonsense vote to see where we stand.

Should axis forces be allowed to build demolition charges?

(All modes) Axis Demolition Charge Vote

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Comments

  • #2
    2 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 520
    edited February 12
    Yes, Axis forces should have access to demolition charges.

    I can think of no valid argument; except a poor point of maybe the homoegenizing of factions, against OST wielding demo charges on their pios as standard, of all the factions, they are perhaps the main one I would have thought would have access to them. Especially since it would do alot to deter penal, rifle and section blobs. It isn't like they float muni anyway, unlike Sov who basically drown in the stuff.

    For OKW however, I would of thought you should follow the way they are implemented on the western allies by making them doctrinal (assualt engis and commandos), I believe the best bet being Falls having access to them, so it not only boosts the strength and viability of the commander but also fits the theme of the infiltration troops, rather than overburdening sturms or making salvage (JLF) too powerful.

    Mirroring demos would at least deter blobbing on all sides.

  • #3
    2 months ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 188
    edited February 12
    Yes, Axis forces should have access to demolition charges.
    It would fit well if sturmpios instead of the useless/hard to get stun grenade could have the demo charge to help mid/late game versus blobs and such things. But only okw would be the axis faction with demo, wehr already has pretty good mines.
  • #4
    2 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 5,928
    edited February 12
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.

    They shouldn't.

    And if you want to, then first no side costs weapon upgrades for cons, doctrine free heavy tanks for soviets and so on.

    You're not getting other armies toys if you're not willing to share your own.

    You also already got goliaths.

  • #5
    2 months ago
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.
    Lots of people want to nerf demos hard and now axis should have them because allies do have them? Axis got plenty wiping power already, can wipe just as wel as allies.

    I want a snare on shocks because ost truppen get it the same way grens do. I want no brainer upgrades non doc on cons with no downsides like volks get.
    This will keep going until we get one faction for the whole game.

    Okw got a p4 wich they didnt need imo i hardly see it used in my games.

    Faction need to be different and have different strengths, homogizing the factions is easier but wil ruin the game imho.

    That poor point of homogysation is the most important reason not to do it.
  • #6
    2 months ago
    kingdun3284kingdun32… Posts: 1,077
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.
    It would happen only when usf can call in super pershing after researching all techs or having non doctrinal mobile artillery, weapons upgrade on field, P47 that perform better than SCAS, grenade that come with tech.
  • #7
    2 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 520
    Yes, Axis forces should have access to demolition charges.

    I voted yes as I see demo charges (in their current state) as one of the largest blob detterents, the fact is the two main culprits after the WBP for blobbing will still be rifle blobs and piat blobs, the only real reason that OKW blobs is in response to them, as a purely AI blob is rather useless when tanks are on the field.

    Setting aside the fact that only SOV has them non-doc, so i'm not really sure what kingdun is talking about as its not a core component of USF, giving OST and OKW demos is only going to punish poor gameplay styles like blobbing, so i'm a little confused as to why so many people are arguing against it.

  • #8
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,509
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.

    All of the engineer squads have their own unique tools, the soviet engineers get the demo charge. Sturmpios have enough at their disposal for a squad that's already combat effective, and pios get mines that no other engineer does. There is a glitch on teller's that needs to be fixed (mostly with brit tanks it seems) but having a vehicle-only mine on your engineers is a big bonus.

    @Farra13 Not sure why so many people think demo charges are this magic cure for blobs. If you need demos to counter blobs you're doing something wrong. Those glorious 3-squad wipes people post with demos don't really occur that often, and for 90 muni you can't just litter the map with them. The most common use for demos is to get squads capturing territory points, not to serve as a counter to blobs. And to avoid those wipes all you usually have to do is not click the point but instead place the squad on the edge of the capture zone so they can't see where you are.

  • #9
    2 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 520
    edited February 12
    Yes, Axis forces should have access to demolition charges.

    @SkysTheLimit Not the magic cure, by no means do i think that all blobbing will stop the minute demos are accesible by all factions, but it acts as a damn good detterent. Its the knowledge that they could be on the field that discourages massing your troops into one big blob, and the cost is sort of why I advocate giving them to at least OST, as they don't exactly have the muni float that SOV does, meaning a demo is a pair less tellers/mg42/flametrack.

  • #10
    2 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 454
    edited February 12
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.
    Ost tellers one shot all light vehicles the s mines are dam good covers for flanks and deneing fuel muni points and non doc lmg 42. that why the dont have muni to spare.

    They dont need demo,s imo it would only delay lmgs shreck tellers etc.

    If anything demo will also increase blobbing around the unit with a sweeper if more factions get them stock.

    Most of the time demo wipe single squads anyway and not blobs.
  • #11
    2 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 520
    Yes, Axis forces should have access to demolition charges.

    Its only my opinion, i don't want to start a massive argument. Perhaps my head is still stuck back in coh 1, demo charges were available to both sides, as destroying bridges and opening up new paths was a big part of gameplay back then, i suppose time has moved on.

  • #12
    2 months ago
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.

    @Farra13 said:
    Its only my opinion, i don't want to start a massive argument. Perhaps my head is still stuck back in coh 1, demo charges were available to both sides, as destroying bridges and opening up new paths was a big part of gameplay back then, i suppose time has moved on.

    Demos do not stop blobbing, but will punish the enemy hard if they do not use minesweepers with their blobs. OKW players still blob pretty hard even when going against soviets. It is way too easy to get behind an enemy and kill their retreating troops with okw's high accuracy.

  • #13
    2 months ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 379
    Yes, Axis forces should have access to demolition charges.

    @company14u2 said:

    @Farra13 said:
    Its only my opinion, i don't want to start a massive argument. Perhaps my head is still stuck back in coh 1, demo charges were available to both sides, as destroying bridges and opening up new paths was a big part of gameplay back then, i suppose time has moved on.

    Demos do not stop blobbing, but will punish the enemy hard if they do not use minesweepers with their blobs. OKW players still blob pretty hard even when going against soviets. It is way too easy to get behind an enemy and kill their retreating troops with okw's high accuracy.

    Demo's are used a lot more for than just punishing blobs.

    The keyword was Utility.

  • #14
    2 months ago
    Yes, Axis forces should have access to demolition charges.

    I can definitely see some interesting combinations in city maps, other utility options or for example against the brits and their sim city, smoking their positions with a mortar while moving up pioneers and placing a demo in the cover of the smoke.

  • #15
    2 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,580
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.
    So despite always saying they should, i dont actually think they do.... Soviet combat engies bring the least the field even with demos, they have no combat utility aside from flamer, they cant build anything but wire and mines, they dont have long sight or high rec acc. They are ass WITH the exception of the demo, give it to everyone else and they lose the lone thing that makea them interesting...
  • #16
    2 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,545
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.
    Abstaining for now. Id rather we look at demos more closely first and remove them from commandos before we consider dishing them out to every jerk with a shovel
  • #17
    2 months ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 987
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.

    @Lazarus said:
    Abstaining for now. Id rather we look at demos more closely first and remove them from commandos before we consider dishing them out to every jerk with a shovel

    Well, as for commandos, you have to consider their already more than modest costs and the munitions situation for the UKF, as the Soviets tend to hoard munitions much more than the UKF.

    I mean, it would be better if commandos had a "light" demo charge, with minimal cost decrease and setup time (~75 instead of 90) but moderately less power compared to the normal demo (about 2/3 as potent, and about 1/5 less range)

  • #18
    2 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,580
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.
    On the topic of commando demos i think the para demo would be a better choice for them. A camod, durable, combat effective unit shouldnt also be able to lay traps like that, imo its another example of the new guys get it all. Yea they are expensive (quite) but imo its just too bloody much
  • #19
    2 months ago
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.

    Demo charges need to be nerfed heavily in order to limit cheese play. I don't remember who suggested it, but nerfing the 1HK radius and causing the rest of the models caught in the blast to be pinned/suppressed would still make it a blob counter while limiting its currently obscene wiping potential.

  • #20
    2 months ago
    company14u2company14… Posts: 539
    edited February 14
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.

    @Ulaire Minya said:
    Demo charges need to be nerfed heavily in order to limit cheese play. I don't remember who suggested it, but nerfing the 1HK radius and causing the rest of the models caught in the blast to be pinned/suppressed would still make it a blob counter while limiting its currently obscene wiping potential.

    or you could just have it kill everything in its radius except one model. That way a single squad will have one member alive, but a huge blob will lose everything except one model from one random squad. If someone suggest otherwise, it sounds like they are blobbing and are the ones doing the cheese. Blobbing is cheesy.

  • #21
    2 months ago
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.
    If demo are so op and need to be nerfed. Then we can make the teller mine so that is has to leave all light vehicles hit by the mine with 10% health remaning. Instead of one shotting all lights.

    75 muni it costs i believe one shotting 75 to 80 feul and give or take 300 mp with no manual detonation is ok? but 90 muni wiping on average 300 mp and 60 muni with manual detonation is not? Ap round for ost sniper wiping multyple models comes to mind, and the bundle grenade one shot wiping 6 men when not even bunched up for 45 muni as well.

    If demo is cheese so are these, dont always just bring allied stuff to the table please. Soviet wiping power is already reduced greatly since launch.

    Just leave it as is. Factions need different tools and flavor.
  • #22
    2 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,545
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.

    Apples to oranges. Demo isn't remotely close to the power of the Teller mine, which will only oneshot T-70s or weaker (and in fact if we see the light vehicle changes return in the next patch, will not even do that to vetted T-70s). You also have to drive directly over them, rather than being in the same neighbourhood, and minesweepers will immediately remove the threat as opposed to the still volatile demo charge, and Teller can only kill one unit at a time. This isn't even remotely in the same realm as demo charges - so don't try and generate some kind of false equivalency

  • #23
    2 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 454
    edited February 14
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.
    Minesweeper spots the demo and you can shoot it with smal arms works fine.

    How often does a demo wipe more then one unit? Only when a player blobs really tightly and walk over the demo and the allied player has to see this.

    Demo is fine so is the teller. They are the same apples but different colours.

    You are right with the light vehicles though i hope they get implemented.
  • #24
    2 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,545
    edited February 14
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    Demo is fine so is the teller. They are the same apples but different colours.

    Nope. Massive AoE trigger at will and set and pray only triggered on vehicles, totally different.

  • #25
    2 months ago
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.
    That evens out. One can be taken care of at range with small arms the teller requires them to be on top. Both require smart placement. They can both one shot wipe but have different targets.

    Its fine as is.
  • #26
    2 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,545
    edited February 14
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.

    Tellers can be shot from a distance too by small arms. The Teller is fine as is. This is not a Teller thread though. This is about the demo charge. You're welcome to make a Tellers OP thread if you really want to.

  • #27
    2 months ago
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.

    i just used it to counter the demo is op opinion, it can be devastating yes but that is only very occasionaly.

    I think the teller is fine and needs no adjustments.

  • #28
    2 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 520
    Yes, Axis forces should have access to demolition charges.

    The big difference between the Teller and Demo though are how they affect the game at different times,Tellers might score that early big kill if your playing against some no-brainer fool, anyone with any knowledge of the game escorts their first light with a sweeper squad, no exceptions to any faction, so that problem everyone whines about is really quite non-existent. After that its simply a tool to guard flanks and an extra that can try to disable vehicles likes comets and pershings to score the kill.

    The demo however can be a really awkward and frustrating tool to pick of vetted squads in the chaos of late game, now one could make the argument that you should only cap with sweeper squads, but that is both impractical and hard to keep in check while your attacking/defending, reinforcing your units and building new ones. Its rather easy to get so caught up/stretched so thin, that you send your vet 5 volks to that little strategic point in the bottot right, then their icon dissapears from the top right and you scroll over to find a fat crater and some pink mist. Losing a fully vetted squad is damn devastating, especially since their was absoluetly no chance to escape.

  • #29
    2 months ago
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.
    How is that different then loosing a vet 3 su76 or m5 quad you kept alive until the late game? Tellers are not planted in the late game?
  • #30
    2 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 5,928
    No, Axis forces should NOT have access to demolition charges.

    @Farra13 said:
    The big difference between the Teller and Demo though are how they affect the game at different times,Tellers might score that early big kill if your playing against some no-brainer fool, anyone with any knowledge of the game escorts their first light with a sweeper squad, no exceptions to any faction, so that problem everyone whines about is really quite non-existent. After that its simply a tool to guard flanks and an extra that can try to disable vehicles likes comets and pershings to score the kill.

    The demo however can be a really awkward and frustrating tool to pick of vetted squads in the chaos of late game, now one could make the argument that you should only cap with sweeper squads, but that is both impractical and hard to keep in check while your attacking/defending, reinforcing your units and building new ones. Its rather easy to get so caught up/stretched so thin, that you send your vet 5 volks to that little strategic point in the bottot right, then their icon dissapears from the top right and you scroll over to find a fat crater and some pink mist. Losing a fully vetted squad is damn devastating, especially since their was absoluetly no chance to escape.

    If you lost more then single squad to demo, it only means you're not doing sweeping right.
    There is no reason not to have sweeper at all times after first one explodes and if you don't sweep, its not demos fault, but yours as a player to refuse to adapt and counter opponent moves.

    Moreover, new formations make it very hard to demo anything, unless you tend to hug cap poles.

  • #31
    2 months ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,883
    The difference between a Tellermine and a demo charge is that a Teller is not only revealed but also made harmless by a sweeper. You can drive over it all day long and it will not explode. Demo charges on the other hand can still be triggered after detection, which makes dealing with them more hazardous. That aside, I don't see why demo charges shouldn't be available to all factions. Blob deterrents are a good thing and I think everyone should have them. Not to mention that demos provide some much needed utility. It's annoyingly difficult to destroy a bridge with everything but Soviets.
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