[wbp][soviet][conscripts and penals in the future]

#1
7 months ago
TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 577
edited February 15 in Balance Feedback

A discusion a had with vipper got me thinking about the fact that the wbp team wants to move cons more to the utility role in a future patch.

i just want to see wich people prefer to see tested in the patch.

Conscript imo should remain the main inf with their current utility/combat for soviets it fits the faction and history so good. i cant really think of what else to give or replace on cons with their utility atm. feel free to add on this.

And what happens to CEs after this.

[wbp][soviet][conscripts and penals in the future] 11 votes

keep cons and penals as they are now.
27%
szolnok95MeowSri_vaka 3 votes
cons get less combat power but can get 2x prts after vet/tech, penals stay the same.
18%
javabalStriker2506 2 votes
cons more utility less combat power mp price down, penals down to just above cons/gren level get acces to at nades as well
18%
Monkey_SpankerZeUberlizard 2 votes
cons get bonus only when in garrison and/or be able to be able to build a public trench. penals back to 270 mp level also get at nade
9%
TheLeveler83 1 vote
cons replace CEs and penal with slightly better mosin replace cons and a veteran conscript squad replaces penals with svt,s
27%
PastulioJubeypukan127 3 votes

Comments

  • #2
    7 months ago
    cons get bonus only when in garrison and/or be able to be able to build a public trench. penals back to 270 mp level also get at nade

    i forgot to add the option other, but feel free to do so.

  • #3
    7 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,039

    Penals obviously will remain as long range infantry, the only question is if they'll get PTRS or not and how lack of AT in T1 will be solved without chaining soviets to a doctrine.

    In regards to cons, there was one post where mr.smith threw quick suggestion, like making molos thrown much faster, which would help cons a little bit(volks flame nades fast).

    If it was up to me, I'd give them side tech weapons locked behind T3 or T4 to help them in late game, where they really struggle.

    They used to be pretty self sufficient before OKW, but that time is gone and they can't be spammed effectively anymore, they are also waaaay to reliant on having vet3 to be useful as pre vet3 they die like flies and can't do any damage in return unless they swarm, from which their cost prevents them to do vs both axis factions who just outgun them.

    Not sure what you mean in 2nd point as cons already have very little combat power, two squads of them still have lower DPS then single penals.

    3rd suggestion would effectively remove all non maxim soviet play from the game.

    Thing is, cons will always be a dead weight late game with current power creep, volks having StGs, improved PGs as long as they don't have weapon upgrade of their own and I doubt modders will be allowed to provide them with one, which means cons will never be soviet backbone they used to be, but only a support for penals and maxims, which are mainline infantry at the moment.

    Utility does not bleed opponent and if unit can't bleed opponent and isn't engineer(or really good utility unit, like transports/reinforce/maphack halftruck), that unit doesn't really have a place in the army.

  • #4
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,850
    I would vote other, imo cons need vet changed- vet 1 becomes free molitov on a cooldown and a real grenade replaces it in t0 side tech
    Vet 3 should be toned back, add reinforcment reduction

    Next make cons cheaper to buy as the soviet player techs t3 and 4.

    Molitov isnt good enough to be worth a side tech, but its current state being a free area denial on a cool down as a vet ability would suit their utility focus (maybe make 10mu if need be)
    Keep in mind the shit assed animation tied to the molitov...

    Cheaper reinforcment while lowering their hilarious rec acc bonuses punishes poor movement but not ballsy plays (baiting a machine gun, taking canon fire ect) this also has the benifit of making merge more attractive, but only later in the match (vet 3) since con target size is larger than average that itself would be a deterrent to merging sith guards or penals (and losing armour) or shocks but close the gap for merging with weapon teams

    Exploitation would be difficult because no matter what you do, in the end you have con models... And aint nobody saying cons are too good (aside from the huge durability at vet 3)

    The idea is turn them into cannon fodder that is easy to replace if need be. Outnumber the enemy with cons and sprinkle in your good troops to add some punch.
  • #5
    7 months ago
    cons get bonus only when in garrison and/or be able to be able to build a public trench. penals back to 270 mp level also get at nade

    @Katitof said:

    Not sure what you mean in 2nd point as cons already have very little combat power, two squads of them still have lower DPS then single penals.

    i agree with you fully, but tried to keep details down in the polls.

  • #6
    7 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,700
    A couple of things id like to see for cons

    Cost decreased to 220. This now justifies their lower performance as you see a few more. Unfortunately this means a scaling nerf at vet 3.

    Merge that doesnt "wipe" a conscript squad (unless used with 1 model left). This is just ease of use to encourage using the ability. It is also a perspective thing though. Rather than complaining your penals have con model durability its a matter of your con models getting penal dps. Merge is great and Id like to see it become more prominent.

    Molotov for free unlocked from vet 0 on a 240 sec cooldown - BUT you speed up the cooldown by 2 seconds for every model a con merges with. Again emphasising utility and merge while making the molly more accessible.

    Vet 3 changed to a 25% reduction in reinforce speed and cost. Molly cooldown to 180 sec.

    Change sandbags to the WFA varient just for uniformity.

    Allow cons to place light AI mines in the doctrines that allow for it.
  • #7
    7 months ago
    cons get bonus only when in garrison and/or be able to be able to build a public trench. penals back to 270 mp level also get at nade

    i voted for the garrison option, because soviets have dont have much for defending holding area for the most part. i want see if that utility option can benefit the faction without breakin it.

  • #8
    7 months ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,893
    edited February 15

    As long as Penals are kept being such powerful combatants, no one will build Conscripts for front-line fighting. The solution to this is not to powercreep Conscripts, but to hit Penalmen, Riflemen and IS with nerfs and bring them down to levels closer to Grenadiers, where they should be given their relatively small price difference. Its not that Cons are necessarily far too weak, the others are simply far too strong. Neither IS nor Rifles have an excuse to be so much better when costing but 16% more. Not since the USF got a Mortar, anyways. And Penals should get cheaper and weaker. Thus, once the allies Infantry power creep crap has been toned down, Cons may be revisited.

    The alternative is to buff Cons and keep the wheel of "who gets the buff" turning until every squad in the game has Fat Man Mininuke launchers as default weapons and Sandbag-reinforced power armour as rec. acc.

  • #9
    7 months ago
    cons get bonus only when in garrison and/or be able to be able to build a public trench. penals back to 270 mp level also get at nade
    I went to far out of the box i am already seeing better use of current utility, anymore snd might have start again
  • #10
    7 months ago
    cons get bonus only when in garrison and/or be able to be able to build a public trench. penals back to 270 mp level also get at nade
    I know penals can be hard for axis to deal with currently. But i feel that after the change penals will need to remain above volks and grens somewhat because soviet needs something to actualy do damage instead off utilizing the enemy to death. And the fact that axis have even better ai inf next to grens and volks in stock army.
  • #11
    7 months ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,893
    edited February 15

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    And the fact that axis have even better ai inf next to grens and volks in stock army.

    I presume you mean PGs and Obers... those are T2 and T3 respectively. Penals are T1. They mainly fight Grenadiers or Volksgrenadiers for a while. And they are much better than Grenadiers and still substantially better than Volks. What you wrote is similar an excuse to putting a Pz IV in T1 because Soviets have access to string anti-tank units in the form of the SU-76 and SU-85

  • #12
    7 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,404

    If Penals remain a stock unit coming at the same time a conscripts, there should room for both unit to work together.

    My suggestion is:
    1) to make Conscript a defensive unit being able to built cover and defend
    2) make Penals an aggressive unit good at flanking

  • #13
    7 months ago
    cons get bonus only when in garrison and/or be able to be able to build a public trench. penals back to 270 mp level also get at nade
    Penals fight pgrens quite often and sturms from t0 as well. Both can tackle cons really easy and come out fast. They can tackle with penals as well.

    So yes penals need to be somewhat better as the axis main line inf imo.
  • #14
    7 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 625

    I would have thought that to fit the SOV playstyle and faction theme, cons would fill the role of utility, screening and support. Almost like Ostruppen, with penals pushed into a long-range, glass cannon squad, that way they synergise with cons who can shield them.

    Give them incremental RA bonuses per level (something like 10-12% RA bonus each vet level so they scale as the game progresses), with vet 3 reducing their reinforce cost by 25%-33%. Add in the ppsh that can be locked behind the Tankoviy command (so they scale into cheap assualt troops that also screen the SOV elites in during the late game), then give them the 2xPTRS upgrade locked behind the anti-tank grenade research so early game they can hold back light vehicles without relying on guards (perhaps add in a third PTRS when Tankoyiv command is built for scaling purposes.)

    Their main job would be forcing off light vehicles, light anti-garrison (with molotovs) and screening/merging with support teams/penals and elite infantry during the early game, then slowly as the game progresses forming the first wave of light assualt troops that draw enemy fire, clear mines and screen the main force. With cheap enough reinforce costs and low pop, by late game they should be durable but cost-effective.

  • #15
    7 months ago
    Selvy289Selvy289 Posts: 158
    edited February 16

    Im kinda torn between reducing cons vet 3 RA and replacing it with a reinforcement decrease, all this means to me is lower staying power and almost practically turning them into ostruppen.

    I really dont get why they cant just get the panzergrens treatment in the WBP and have vet one replaced with 20% RA while reducing their vet 3 to 20% with a 25% reinforcement cost decrease.

    If their accuracy buffed when in cover (like ostruppen), they would become good deference, cost effective infantry.

    P.S For the love of god please change the Molotov.

  • #16
    7 months ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,893

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    Penals fight pgrens quite often and sturms from t0 as well. Both can tackle cons really easy and come out fast. They can tackle with penals as well.

    So yes penals need to be somewhat better as the axis main line inf imo.

    If Penals came in a higher tier youd be right. The way it is now? Hardly so. You pay a pittance worth of tech costs and get semi-elite infantry for it, superior to Volkgrenadiers and Grenadiers, which will dominate any fight they are not outnumbered or confronted with an MG early on. Sturms can only tackle Penals if they get the jump on them. Otherwise they lose pretty decisevily to Penals. And again... Panzergrenadiers are T2. They dont really hit the field that fast, unless your oponent rushes T2, in which case its only Pios and MGs to worry about for early game.

  • #17
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,850
    What about bumping t1 costs to ~30fuel. Its no longer a "lol this junk" tier, it could afford to delay armour a bit more
  • #18
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 577
    edited February 16
    cons get bonus only when in garrison and/or be able to be able to build a public trench. penals back to 270 mp level also get at nade
    Hingie.

    I think we have a missunderstanding, i dont want penals to absolutly dominate grens and volks. I want penal to be slightly better because they are the top inf for soviets non doc. And so that pgrens and sturms dont auto win vs penals but wich will happen if penal are put on con/gren levels imo.

    It did happen when penal where 270 mp.
  • #19
    7 months ago
    cons get bonus only when in garrison and/or be able to be able to build a public trench. penals back to 270 mp level also get at nade
    I woundt mind t1 tech cost increase but still penals are almost the sole reason it is build. Something needs to be done about that as well. I hope the m3 change goes through, i believe that will help a lot.
  • #20
    7 months ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,586
    edited February 16
    • I would make conscript PPSH upgrade available without any doctrine, but locked behind T2.
    • Also (compared to the current live version of the game) i would give 2 PTRS upgrade for Penals instead of flamers, and nerf the accuracy bonuses they receive with vet2 and 3.

    I think these would encourage back-teching and make soviets less doctrine dependent, while wouldn't overlap much with Guards and Shocks. Cons could grow better AI units with upgrades and Penals could optionally provide protection against light vehicles and / or support for ATs.

  • #21
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,686

    @Lazarus said:
    A couple of things id like to see for cons

    Cost decreased to 220. This now justifies their lower performance as you see a few more. Unfortunately this means a scaling nerf at vet 3.

    That is the opposite direction cons need to go, they already scale like shit under the claim of "being cheap". For 10 less MP grens and cons both scale well worse volks, that needs to change, and not in a way that makes it more fair cost-wise but performance wise.

    Making them go to 220 won't make them any easier to spam really, I don't think some US players have any problems spamming rifleman at 280 and neither do OKW players with volks at 250. Make them better, especially in scaling. As I've mentioned in the gren poll, EFA mainlines only have 3 performance bonuses in their vet, while WFA have 4 or more and better non-performance bonuses.

  • #22
    7 months ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,044
    cons replace CEs and penal with slightly better mosin replace cons and a veteran conscript squad replaces penals with svt,s

    And who gonna be "main line infantry"?

  • #23
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,850
    edited February 17
    So i was thinking (and going to make a thread about it if we think its worth exploring)
    About the idea of altering soviet and ost semi mirroring to something more WFA.
    Cliff notes of the idea is:
    Linear teching

    Con is starter unit, but CE still t0

    CE now get satchels instead of penals (so demo, flame, satchel, sweeper)

    Cons become cheaper ~200 (changing stats of course) but dont gain vet, instead get blanket buffs as player techs up and "supply" increases

    This makes unit preservation of cons much less important making they properly expendable AND scale, but requiring tech to do so

    This start means soviet can get lots of map control early but unable to hold effectively until teching up or keeping closeby

    Penals now being always on the menu become proper mainline ~rifles with less flexibility but still expensive like now to promote more filling in the gaps with cons

    For cons towards the end they are more or less a bit better than they are now when vetted (not as durable of course) but really cheap and lacking vet to worry about making them swarmable and worth risking as they are easily replaced.


    The main thing with this is that it breals away from tying cons and grens together letting them grow as independent units instead of worrying about making one better than the other.
  • #24
    7 months ago
    cons get bonus only when in garrison and/or be able to be able to build a public trench. penals back to 270 mp level also get at nade
    I have seen better options the i provided my self. I woudnt mind to see dark making a thread so we dont get double threads and clutter the forum.

    Imo either make current utility work better on cons is good. but the option dark mentioned is worth exploring as well.
  • #25
    7 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 625

    Very interesting idea dark, you should definitely start a thread on it.

  • #26
    6 months ago
    MakcumMakcum Posts: 68

    I think, need up molotov's damage and nothing change else

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