Historic representation of armies.

#1
3 years ago
VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
edited February 2017 in Historical Discussion

@minty said:
Having Cons start with only 4 rifles would suggest that the Soviet Army didn't care about the lives of their soldiers or that they suffered from major logistics failure. Although logistics failure did occur it wasn't common enough for it to be a highlighted feature of the Soviet Armies's basic infantry. To me this would be as insulting if Relic made the American tank crew members all African American and had to repair at a separate HQ.

////

What I mean is that the American Army was racist towards African Americans and this is an undeniable fact. What is not fact is that the Soviet Army intended to send their soldier into battle without proper equipment. Why omit an ugly fact but then highlight an insulting stereotype.

Here read this article and maybe you will see where Im coming from.

www.polygon.com/2013/7/25/4553536/is-company-of-heroes-2-anti-russian

I disagree with the notion that Soviets are misrepresented in Coh2 and that not having riflers would be insulting.

With the same Logic Germans should be offended because the G43 upgrade allow for the interrogation of dying men or British should be offended that their carpet bombing that cost thousands of civilian lives is represented in Coh2.

All sides did bad things during WWII and trying to hide them under the mattress or feeling offended when they hints of them are included in video game serves little purpose.

Comments

  • #2
    3 years ago

    I agree that Relic represents the Soviets like 50's Americans would. Basically Relic did not make the Soviet Union, however they made Stereotypical Soviet Union. However in Real Life during very many battles during World War Two the Soviet Union would fire on troops trying to desert the battle (Stalin's MP.) In Addition, they would also send some conscripts without weapons. This is basically on fact however it was not as largely big as Relic represents them.

  • #3
    3 years ago
    TheWiseTheWise Posts: 63

    Relic's representation of the Soviet Army has nothing to do with history ... it is not even ahistorical .... it's anti-historical at the very least.

  • #4
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Well representing an army with poor trained officer as the Soviet army was during the early stages of the war is not very easy in an RTS game.

  • #5
    3 years ago
    TheWiseTheWise Posts: 63

    @Vipper said:
    Well representing an army with poor trained officer as the Soviet army was during the early stages of the war is not very easy in an RTS game.

    Whe the f**k told you, that Soviet officers were poorly trained even at the early stages of war? At least army with these "poorly trained officers" endured the first strike of the Wehrmacht (no army before did it ... just to remind you - French army with 6 mln. ppl., 6000 tanks along with 600 000 British Expedition Forces endured 43 days in 1940 and weren't utterly destroyed only due to the Hitler's "stop-order", which gave them 10 days to evacuate from Dunkerck).

  • #6
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited May 2017

    Pls take it easy.

    The reason why Soviet officer where poorly trained was the most of the experienced officer where removed by Stalin during the "purge" especially during 1936-48. The result of the purge can be seen in the Soviet Campaign in Finland.

  • #7
    3 years ago
    TheWiseTheWise Posts: 63

    @Vipper said:
    Relax man.
    The reason why Soviet officer where poorly trained was the most of the experienced officer where removed by Stalin during the "purge" especially during 1936-48. The result of the purge can be seen in the Soviet Campaign in Finland.

    About 4 (four) percent of all officer corps suffered from so-called "Stalin's Purge". As for finnish Army and Mannerheim Line - 600 000 fully mobilized army and one of the best fortified lines of that time weren't an easy prey even for Soviet Army (not mobilized to that moment). These facts weren't correctly estimated initially, but as soon as they did (in January-February 1940) - everything stood in their proper places.

  • #8
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited May 2017

    Soviet Army performed poorly in Finland. It engaged a smaller force with inferior armament and suffer tremendous losses.

    Regardless of the exact number of officer that where "purge" they consequence for the Red army where devastating because:

    1) Among the Officer "purged" where top tactician. Stalin realized his mistake and had to reinstated some of them.

    2) Made officer reluctant to the responsibility make tactical decision

    3) Created a bureaucratic army where military decision where made by Commissars who lucked military training or by Stalin himself thousand of miles of front.

  • #9
    3 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    'Although the senior ranks experienced the most severe losses in terms of percentages (11 of 13 army commanders were shot, as were 57 of the 85 corps commanders and 110 of the 195 division commanders), the numerical bulk of the victims came from subordinates unfortunate enough to be on the wrong staff or performing the wrong mission. Estimates of the total losses created by this mass bloodletting range from 15,000 to 30,000 officers, depending upon the dates used and the figures available. And, most of the 1,836,000 surviving Red Army prisoners of war liberated from the Axis powersat the end of World War II were sent to the Gulag as "traitors to the motherland." '.

    Well over a million well-armed men were stalled for months before a thinly defended Finnish line, and the Soviet losses were almost unbelievable. Being a fantastic example of having more men and equipment not always meaning guaranteed victory. This defeat gave Hitler all he needed to know about the state of the Russian army at that time. "You only have kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down".

  • #10
    3 years ago
    TheWiseTheWise Posts: 63
    edited May 2017

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    'Although the senior ranks experienced the most severe losses in terms of percentages (11 of 13 army commanders were shot, as were 57 of the 85 corps commanders and 110 of the 195 division commanders), the numerical bulk of the victims came from subordinates unfortunate enough to be on the wrong staff or performing the wrong mission. Estimates of the total losses created by this mass bloodletting range from 15,000 to 30,000 officers, depending upon the dates used and the figures available. And, most of the 1,836,000 surviving Red Army prisoners of war liberated from the Axis powersat the end of World War II were sent to the Gulag as "traitors to the motherland." '.

    Well over a million well-armed men were stalled for months before a thinly defended Finnish line, and the Soviet losses were almost unbelievable. Being a fantastic example of having more men and equipment not always meaning guaranteed victory. This defeat gave Hitler all he needed to know about the state of the Russian army at that time. "You only have kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down".

    Sources of all that crap? Solzhenitsyn? Rezun aka Victor Suvorov? Anthony Beavor? If so - read on, you're good to go :-)) We (Russians, and all ex-Soviets) do not need to justify ourselves, for- we won. You (all westernites) do need it (along with dirtslinging us in all possible ways and manners - books, movies, video games) - bacause you lost.

  • #11
    3 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    Maybe you Russians could try making an rts game instead then if Putin allows it :wink: But westerners, as you put it, generally have access to free information and testimonials from Russians after the war. The purge was obvious, real and had a huge effect.

    I'm sorry what did 'we' lose?
  • #12
    3 years ago
    TheWiseTheWise Posts: 63
    edited May 2017

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Maybe you Russians could try making an rts game instead then if Putin allows it :wink: But westerners, as you put it, generally have access to free information and testimonials from Russians after the war. The purge was obvious, real and had a huge effect.

    I'm sorry what did 'we' lose?

    Russians make their games, and rather good ones (where, BTW, even Germans are depicted decently, without insulting them in any manner - unlike we are depicted in this game). Faces of War/Men of War series, Blitzkrieg series - just for instance.
    Your western befief, that "you have access to free information" is very touchy, but - in reality you have access to politically correct information and proper (from the point of view of your elites) testimonials from Russians only. I.e. the censorship in "golden billion" societies is invisible, but extremely harsh and efficient.

    As for "what you lost" - the answer is "your currently last crusade against Russia". For Nazi Germany wasn't timely stopped from conquering the entire Europe merely to make it strong enough to destroy the Soviet Union (which was, in fact, the "Russian Empire in red design"). Wehrmacht included military units from ALL european countries, let alone the fact, that entire Europe honestly worked for Germany.

  • #13
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    The criticism to Stalin and the mistake he made does not come from the west but the Soviet union itself. It was Nikita Khrushchev who pointed them out.

    If you want to see perceive thing as East vs West you can but you have to keep in mind that it was done for 50 year during the cold war and it it not help anyone.

    The Soviet soldier fought bravely and performed admirably, its command did not perform allot lower.

  • #14
    3 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    Ugh, this debate again.. :s

    Dude, the red Army was in shambles and shackles at the onset of Operation Barbarossa in 41.

    Stalin was a madman the size of Hitler and he left the red army in a sorry place by 41.
    His officers were poorly trained and did not have valuable experience, his privates were despondent and his NCO's was non-existant..!

    It was only due to the Soviet Unions near unlimited reserves and willingness to throw lives away that halted the nazi advance...

    Just look up "the Rzhev cauldron" for further proof...

    Seriously, don't let Putin taint your mind with childish propaganda.....
  • #15
    2 years ago

    Rzhev, the salient that defeated Zhukov.

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