[SOV][ALL] Pros and Conscripts: A Poll/Balance Think-Tank

#1
2 years ago
GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
edited March 2017 in Balance Feedback

PLEASE NOTE: This will be discussing the supposed impact as a whole with these changes. Please don't say things like "Well just stuff it in a commander!". This will be implementing any suggested changes as a whole.

Also, please read the OP before posting, this will make discussion much more easier.

Now, due to the previous success that was the Grenadier Think-Tank. It is now time to focus our attention on Conscripts: Infantry with no pros, but all con.

Conscripts, unlike their grenadier cousin, do not have durability as their main problem. Their main problem lies elsewhere, and I mean everywhere but durability.

We must first truly define the conscript's role. With Penals the way they are, we are all left wondering: What about conscripts? This poll should help us with this answer.

Now that does not mean it is unfixable! My little grey cells worked their magic and have made multiple suggestions based on research and other people's suggestions!

There are 4 main opinions that seem to have the largest group of supporters. I will now summarize their views in the most unbiased manner possible:

1- Giving Conscripts more utility
This route gives conscripts the role of offensive support. By improving the molotov, merge, and possibly some other tools. Conscripts will be less cannon fodder and more support fodder. (Maybe making Hit the Dirt a Vet ability?)

PROS:

  • Conscripts now has a defined role
  • Practically all Conscript Tools and abilities will see more usage

CONS:

  • Could hurt balance vs Grens

2- Giving Conscripts more damage output
While possible overlapping the Penal's role. This would make conscripts more deadly. It can be through vet, scaling, upgrade, licking a cold flagpole. It will increased the DPS of conscripts.

PROS:

  • Conscripts somehow more threatening

CONS:

  • Definitely hurts balance vs. Grens
  • Role conflict with Penals

3- Making Conscripts Cheaper
This will reinforce conscript's role as cannon fodder. Highly recommended to be a more mid-late game upgrade. This would make conscripts cheaper to make and/or reinforce. Everything else will stay the same about conscripts.

PROS:

  • Conscripts now useful at dying
  • Less manpower bleed

CONS:

  • Could hurt balance vs Grens
  • Russians may get butthurt

4- Change Nothing
"You go with this option, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe."

Sorry, I wanted to do a Matrix reference. However, this option is for the people who think Conscripts are fine in the balance spectrum. And that the supposed balance problem is cause by an outside force, like the WFA armies or Danny DeVito.

PROS:

  • Nothing changes

PROS:

  • Nothing changes

Okay, now that the Pros and Cons were listed, we can now hopefully discuss this topic in a humane manner.

[SOV][ALL] Pros and Conscripts: A Poll/Balance Think-Tank 35 votes

Give Conscripts better Utility
45%
KatitofcapiquaLazarusGrittleBaálthazor_Aqua_SkysTheLimitMCMartelcaptainjordyKithMeowMr_SmithBoris_yeltsinDonSeteSri_vakaTheLeveler83 16 votes
Give Conscripts better DPS
14%
Xutryn_X7KurfürstPastuliojavabalFor the rest of his life 5 votes
Make Conscripts cheaper
25%
HingiethedarkarmadilloGenObiWiderstreitSitatopBigBearGoYellowFoxubermenschNivekQc 9 votes
Conscripts don't need changing
14%
ImperialDaneVonManteuffelScharfepukan127PrincessBubblegum 5 votes
«1

Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,793
    Make Conscripts cheaper
    Well, you know me. Im behind the cheaper route
    Ecen when cheap and weaker RE had their uses (granted they could get weapon upgrades) proving that there IS a sweet spot for cost efficiency, cons are IMO missing that sweet spot.

    With penals existing in a state of not suck, cons as combat units is a system set up for failure and overlap, they need to be someyhign unique but also bring something to the fight, i humbly request that to be their deaths.
  • #3
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    Give Conscripts better Utility
    Im opting for pure utility. I want merge to become a staple of Soviet style, I want the M3 to be bussing reinforcements to the front.

    I argue to those unconvinced that we have determined the Penal to be the main infantry fighting unit of the Soviet army - offering them (mediocre) flexibility. Conscripts should be merging with Penals and butchering things that are suppressed by Maxims. Ultimately - that will put the conscript in a unique role to other Soviet units and will provide purpose to them. My only note is it would necessitate a rework of the AT/Molo package (presumably implied by the buff molotovs comment - but you know what this place is like)
  • #4
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 687
    edited March 2017
    Give Conscripts better Utility
    I am in for the utility. Mostly fixing the current utility. Molis taking years to throw, merge ending up costing you the squad.

    I would make hit the dirt a vet ability. And merge at and molli tech for the price of the at nade. We will have to see how many cons people make after this, for me no more then 2 that would be about 300mp and 12fuel total investment for each con squad. Other wise it will be to expensive. But we will have to see if i am right :)

    They will still not scale well even with better utility.
    Maybe at vet 3 slight rof or acc buff not sure how much though.
  • #5
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951
    edited March 2017
    Give Conscripts better Utility

    I wouldn't mind them getting cheaper, but I'm more of a fan of making them worth their price supporting the Soviet heavy infantry. Faster molly throws, unlocks that don't cost a fortune and overhauling vet (throw range, maybe a merge buff, spreading out the RA buff so that Cons are okay even when they're not vetted) and they should be decent without screwing up the Gren balance

    EDIT: QoL change, merge can't consume the last guy in the squad. Its really annoying to accidentally merge your squad out of existence.

  • #6
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    edited March 2017

    I'd probably vote for no change unless Grenadiers/Volks get a similar change in the same spirit of worthiness. Conscripts aren't fighting Infantry Sections, Penals, Guards, USF riflemen, Rangers, Commandos and Maxims who all are currently OP in the current game. But if the former were deemed balanced somehow I'd go for being a little more cost efficient or change them to the single player ones - what are they called ''something vicky squads''.

  • #7
    2 years ago
    Give Conscripts better Utility
    Really? All those squads cost more and some need heavy investments. And are the top non doc inf except commandos. Both axis can get more inf at a higher tier non doc. Volks and grens have more use late game imo and cons dont.

    I do feel that wfa inf needs toning down iether with vet or dual lmgs if needed both.

    Maxim is imo not op. if anything the overnerf forces more maxim spam. 260mp for a worse mg in almost every aspect. Forcing more A moves.
  • #8
    2 years ago

    @TheLeveler83 Initial costs aren't as negative as people think they are. It's my opinion - just like how you have an opinion of maxims not being OP which imo is crazy and definitely in minority camp. But not to get off topic.

  • #9
    2 years ago
    Give Conscripts better Utility
    Indeed lets keep it about cons.
    And possible effect on balance

    Volks already outpreform and outscale cons have simaler utility and in the end are cheaper. so i dont see a major issue there.

    Grens only cons is survivability and because of it needing more support. Making the mollie get thrown faster forces grens out of cover a bit sooner. So this can be a problem.
  • #10
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722

    It is the WFA that need to brought down to EFA level and not the other way round.

  • #11
    2 years ago
    Give Conscripts better Utility

    I suggest unlocking Molotovs automatically once T1 or T2 is built up (just like it is with fausts), making Molotovs' throwing animation speed dependant on the veterancy level of Cons (so that at the 3rd vet lvl it's as fast as the throwing speed of the Volks' grenade). Not too OP, not really useless.

  • #12
    2 years ago
    Give Conscripts better Utility

    @Grittle написал:

    • Russians may get butthurt

    Russians get butthurt because of tanks

  • #13
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,983
    Make Conscripts cheaper

    The butthurt part convinced me right away. Rework them to some sort of Soviet Osttruppen, tone down Penals a bit (no need for them to have WFA-style power levels at their timing) and Soviets might actually have to do something that isnt spamming TD lategame.

  • #14
    2 years ago
    Make Conscripts cheaper

    @Boris_yeltsin said:
    I suggest unlocking Molotovs automatically once T1 or T2 is built up (just like it is with fausts), making Molotovs' throwing animation speed dependant on the veterancy level of Cons (so that at the 3rd vet lvl it's as fast as the throwing speed of the Volks' grenade). Not too OP, not really useless.

    I fully support the idea

  • #15
    2 years ago
    Give Conscripts better Utility
    Also when cons have 1 model left merge should be blocked or canceld. It can unwittingly cost you a vetted squad.

    And i would replace flare mine with hit the dirt. And let that doctrine somehow improve hit the dirt ostruppen style.
  • #16
    2 years ago
    Make Conscripts cheaper

    I think the utilities already at their disposal should be cheaper. Make the AT nade and the molotov cocktail into one package at 20-25 fuel cost. That way we can see a bit more use with them without having to make them super good in terms of penals. Which I would only support if the Wehrmacht get a elite style unit equivalent to the obers so that they can handle late game scenarios, because the current gren unit will not be able to do it.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    Give Conscripts better Utility
    What about p grens? The scale well and dont always have to go shrecks.
  • #18
    2 years ago
    Make Conscripts cheaper

    not really sufficient enough, if you can get them in close quarters sure, however 9/10 your prob not due to the fact that your gonna get gunned down by a swarm of riflemen with bars or IS with Bren guns.

  • #19
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 687
    edited March 2017
    Give Conscripts better Utility
    Yes and those WFA inf need to be toned down. The game doesnt need other units like that. But we are drifting off topic.
  • #20
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    Give Conscripts better Utility

    @ubermensch said:
    not really sufficient enough, if you can get them in close quarters sure, however 9/10 your prob not due to the fact that your gonna get gunned down by a swarm of riflemen with bars or IS with Bren guns.

    I don't know how Conscripts would go against reefermen or IS in a normal multiplayer match but okay.

  • #21
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    Give Conscripts better Utility

    I want the molotov to be a little better. Make it 20 muni instead of 15 if you must, but its short range, throw time, obviousness, etc. all combine to make it very weak. It's cheapness is by far its best quality, I'm willing to up its cost a little for some better performance. If it's gonna have its own tech, it might as well be pretty good.

  • #22
    2 years ago
    PrincessBubblegumPrincessB… Posts: 110
    edited March 2017
    Conscripts don't need changing

    Soviets in 3v3 and 4v4 do not need buffed cons, in 1v1 and 2v2 they are scaling well against Ostheer (actually, they are wiping grens from the battlefield with PPSH and even assgrens have no chance against PPSH-cons). If somebody thinks that they are not scaling against OKW, he can just use penals.
    Why soviets do not need buffed cons? Because soviet army in current patch is most OP faction of the game, only pfusilier-doctrine used OKW scales against them.
    Small list of benefits what Soviet army has:
    -All vehicles overperforming for cost, cheap and useful units for every situation (quad after WBP will be OK, only it and maybe KV-1 are well balanced in soviet tech)
    -Doctrinal all-utility infantry to replace cons in late game with it (guards) or very good AI infantry to play around them with cons (schocks)
    -Doctrinal radiocoach and forward HQ, what are OP.
    -Very good support weapons, doctrinal or not, best garrisoned HMGs. Call-in support weapons for every situation and even doctrine for all of them at the same time!
    -Doctrinal ability, what trades muni for more cons with same stats and abilities than tech-cons, when Ostheer got only bosstruppen even without possibility to refill even weapon teams with them.
    -Demo charges

    If you buff cons, it will wipe weak Ostheer from battlefield to the end of days. But I agree, that now cons is not a unit what has its role for cost.
    So the best solution, what I see is really making them cheaper and giving them worse stats. It will affect cons-spam players in 1v1 to stop just spam 3 units in all game (cons/PPSHcons/ZIS3/T-34-85) and start use even some support to win with them and at the same time in 3v3 and 4v4 cons wil have their role as cheap starting unit like osttruppen, with late game as quick-refill for guards, shocks and weapin teams.
    Or... There is another reason to buff cons. Make all soviet vehicles performing for cost. If something has cost of STUG or PIV, it must have the same utility, so in that case it will be fair.

  • #23
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,983
    Make Conscripts cheaper

    @Grittle said:
    I don't know how Conscripts would go against reefermen or IS in a normal multiplayer match but okay.

    I think he means Panzergrenadiers.

  • #24
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    Give Conscripts better Utility

    @Hingie said:

    @Grittle said:
    I don't know how Conscripts would go against reefermen or IS in a normal multiplayer match but okay.

    I think he means Panzergrenadiers.

    Okay, that makes much more sense

    People should use the quote feature more in this forum, confuses me to no end.

  • #25
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,793
    Make Conscripts cheaper
    @hingie agreed, its bugged on mobile (or at least is for me) so its not pleasant at all, rather all it does is put "null" in the entry box...
  • #26
    2 years ago
    GenObiGenObi Posts: 1,368
    edited March 2017
    Make Conscripts cheaper
    Make em cheaper and reinforce quicker, performance wise i say its spot on. Maybe 200 mp? 210?
  • #27
    2 years ago
    BigBearBigBear Posts: 94
    Make Conscripts cheaper

    I voted for cheaper because it wasn't clear to me what the supposed "extra utility" would entail, since everybody seems to have different opinions as to what cons do. I think the cheaper option doesn't have to be the final solution, rather it could serve as a stopgap at a minimum, so as to gather more consensus on what or if extra utilities need to be added. t At a minimum this would improve con's outlook in the short term.

  • #28
    2 years ago
    Give Conscripts better Utility
    The quote feature doesnt work on my phone :'(
  • #29
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 687
    edited March 2017
    Give Conscripts better Utility
    Letze.

    Cons already have the worst total package. Dont scale very well are doctrine depended to become good in combat in late game. Again doctrine dependence for soviets. 3 is not spamming 4+ is spamming imo. giving cons even worse stats and making them cheaper will effectivly make them obsolete imo.

    Cons are supposed to shine in utility compared to other inf. their current uttility doesnt make up for the lack of upgrades and scaling. i am in favor to make the utility better with vet to not make the initial impact gamebreaking.

    Pound for pound soviet squads weapon teams vehicles etc mostly do worse then axis stuff. But they have a pack effect they can spam better then other factions can. That is when they outpreform axis counterparts bye getting more then them.
  • #30
    2 years ago
    PrincessBubblegumPrincessB… Posts: 110
    edited March 2017
    Conscripts don't need changing

    Cons already have the worst total package. Dont scale very well are doctrine depended to become good in combat in late game. Again doctrine dependence for soviets.

    There is no doctrine dependence for soviets, but soviets have too much choice in them if you watch other factions, only UKF has better commander choice. Soviets have 2 docs , what are not scaling in game at al (NKVD and AI, the last only besause there is better docs with the same abilities and call-ins), when Ostheer has every third commander completely useless. At the same time all soviet doctrines (except NKVD doc, what is useless behind other soviet docs) have call-in support teams or special troops for early or late game and awesome call-in arty/air support/ and passive abilities like radiocoach, what is "puddingly" OP.

    Cons are supposed to shine in utility compared to other inf. their current uttility doesnt make up for the lack of upgrades and scaling. i am in favor to make the utility better with vet to not make the initial impact gamebreaking.

    Cons have already very big utility, just watch how much stuff they can do and how much can do grens or volks. Volks with "full-doctrinal buff" has two types of grenade assault, can be upgraded with STGs, have pfaust and can build sandbags or doctrinal bunkers and mines (2 doctrines). Grens have pfaust, rifle nade and can be upgraded with MG-42 or G43, but G43 package has not even half of utility of cons assault package, what is cheaper (!). Cons "fully buffed" with "Conscript support tactics" as example can "Hit the dirt", be upgraded with PPSH, be repairmen, refill weapon teams and elite troops on the battlefield, throw molotovs, AT nades and place spot mines in faction, what has already too much recon stuff, and finally they can run like crazy for 10 muni, and when they have "oorah" with equipped PPSH it is OP (all of that with 1 doctrine). Also assgrens has no chance against PPSH cons, what is stupid.

    Pound for pound soviet squads weapon teams vehicles etc mostly do worse then axis stuff. But they have a pack effect they can spam better then other factions can. That is when they outpreform axis counterparts bye getting more then them.

    U are wrong in this case. Maxim or DSHK has no penalty in turning when it is garrisoned and non-vetted maxim kills non-vetted MG-42 in the same cover or in "Garrison vs garrison", also ZIS3 comes earlier than PAK and has 2 abilities when PAK has only 1 and after vet. PM-38 deals even more damage than burger M1 (it seems to be okay, it comes at 2 CP, but ostheer has no counter for it) T-70 has non-doc spotting option and crazy AI (also all light tanks like stuart or T70 etc motivies Ostheer build too much more stuff only to counter it, it is not a 222 what can easily just be spammed with 2 or 3 squad of conscripts with AT nades) also most of soviet vehicles have 2 non-doc abilities when Ostheer vehicles has only 1. T-34-76 has crazy AI buffed fo no reason and is too overperforming for cost. Same thing to T-34-85. Soviet army now is designed "one-buttonly", so tactic against ostheer is just trolling with cheap and OP stuff all the time and waiting "for a better tank", when Ost must all the time react and react with wasting all economics for expensive and underperforming units like Ostwind, PIV, Panther or Tiger, the last became just a peace of meat for cheap and crazily good SU-85. With last buff of SU-85 even STUG starts to be UP just because if the first rush of T-34 was unsucceful, soviet player just field SU-85 and destroys all of them, if they even scopped. Again, undoctrinally. Without strong buff or cost reducing of Ostheer vehicles, MG-42, grenadiers, assgrens and G43 cons buff will just give to soviets an old american type of gameplay with infantry and tank blobs of doom, what they have already but with penals and guards.

  • #31
    2 years ago
    Give Conscripts better Utility
    Letze

    I will gladly discus the whole spectrum of soviet with you in another thread. We are going off topic. This thread is about cons in relations to grens.
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