Soviet Tier 2 Problem with Maxims [USSR] [All]

#1
7 months ago

Problem: With penals being expanded to do AT, the only real reason anyone needed Soviet tier 2 anymore, tier 2 needs to be hanged up a bit. Maxims are UP in the extreme, so there is no real anti infantry if a USSR player goes tier 2. Currently maxims have too small a cone and too low supression to be good on defense, too low DPS and too slow a speed to be good on offense, so they don't really work anywhere since the triple nerf.
Solution: Give maxims a better role and a buff

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Comments

  • #2
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 583

    lets nerf its core feature make it more expensive and take longer to build. the spam is still here......

    spam and A move are the only way to make it effective atm. people have to spam it for it to be worth its price. the setup nerf hurt it to much.

    possible solution:
    decrease suprresion, revert nerfs. let extra squad cons or penals increase the supression (maxim when supported supresses more)

  • #3
    7 months ago
    MeowMeow Posts: 165

    Maxim have a big problem right now.
    Its too slow to react , other mgs just have to picked up and repositioned , maxim however has to be pulled/pushed.
    Turning animation hurts maxim so hard fifty cal is same as maxim in every aspect but better. Maxim needs to be uniqe again.
    Maxims are spammed because cons suck for AI , also 1 maxim can't hold 2 squads , maybe only in house so you need a lot of them to protect are you want protected.

    Durability only matters when maxim is in house , than it can't be flanked easily and can survive barages from enemy mortar / arty / infantry.
    First moment maxim is flanked its over , you retreat regardless of durability.
    To fix maxim spam soivets need other AI options even if we buff maxim arc so it can protect itself it will be spammed because mainline infantry can't do the job of stopping enemy , neither can 1 maxim currently.

  • #4
    7 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,040

    You're making the (completely incorrect) assumption that penals "AT" will be in any way sufficient.

    It won't be and absolutely nothing will change vs current meta, T1 openings will be slightly weaker and less cost effective, but they still will not be any more attractive then classic maxim spam builds.

  • #5
    7 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 625

    First things first, the current design of the penals PTRS upgrade is by no means a convetional at option like the P-grens shrek upgrade. Instead it forms more of an emergency "stopgap" soft at , something that is available for when a player fails to capitalise on their early agression and are unable to field their own light vehicles before their opponent, it removes a players reliance on guard commanders as a panic call-in to handle 222s and luchs before they have their own t70/su-76 to fight them off. So really it should not discourage players from building t2, as its not an overly effective at option.

    As for maxims, they cannot be just be buffed in their current state. Maxim spam is still a common and highly effective strategy, if its to be made an effective singular platform again, it needs to either have a later timing so Axis players (mainly OKW) have more options to handle it, or remove its ability to self spot so it requires working in tandem with other units which prevents them from being spammed.

    Fixing its death circle and squad spacing should be the first change, then when it actually has a viable chance of gaining vet can the community get a strong indication of what changes it needs.

  • #6
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,860
    Removing self spotting, while a great unconventional change, is that there is never 1 maxim... If you stagger them slightly (like you should) by the time one sees an enemy the one behind will as well.
  • #7
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 583
    edited March 13

    i am curious do all the mgs have the same sight range? and did the mg42 get sight reduced when pios sight got buffed?

    i dont feel reducing the sight will help the meta and reduce the spam. it will still be more spam of maxims or guards. cons cant really protect the maxims from flanks. backtecking (to penals) just to make an other unit viable is just a very big no for me.

  • #8
    7 months ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,884

    Its sort of a weird unit. Its shit on its own, but still pretty nasty when spammed. IMO, revert the cost increase, fix the deathloop and motorcycle pathing and increase the damage. As much as I hate to do anything that takes away from faction identity, I do think making the maxim a four man squad would be necessary to prevent spamming them from remaining valid.

  • #9
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,860
    What about removing the supression and instead giving it a muni free volley fire esq supression ability with no cooldown. Make it more vulnerable so you want to use it in cover but still useable as a defensive unit. Could tailor buffs from vet, no toggle supression at vet 3 (maybe?)
  • #10
    7 months ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,847

    Then the soviets have no ability to defend points in a game who's only commonly played game mode is about defending points, no, that's not a good idea.

  • #11
    7 months ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 369

    Reducing, or even removing suppression into a timed ability like rear echelon/luchs at vet 5 is an interesting idea.

  • #12
    7 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,703
    The problem with the Maxims spammability is without question a result of its durability. The triple nerf has only proven that fact. Revert those changes and reduce the Maxim to 4 men.

    Its the only way to make it good without making it spammable
  • #13
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 583
    edited March 14
    I hate to admit it but 4 men seems like a solution.

    The deathloop and wide turning need to go before it can become 4 men.

    Rifle grenade will need tweaks. I feel the same about the ost mortar. If maxim goes to 4 men these will become to effective against it.
  • #14
    7 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 625

    Basically its a problem of design, when it come to durability, supression and mobility a unit should really only pick two.

  • #15
    7 months ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 537

    Change maxims to 4 man 240mp with the 50 cal arc. Give volks smoke at vet 1 instead of durability buff. Problem solved.

  • #16
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 583
    edited March 14
    At first it had mobility and durability. Then they added the supression. Every squad just walked out of the small arc.
  • #17
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Removing self spotting, while a great unconventional change, is that there is never 1 maxim... If you stagger them slightly (like you should) by the time one sees an enemy the one behind will as well.

    Yeah I almost always build 2 maxims if I go tier 2, and they're just fine when properly spaced. Their relatively quick setup time let's them help each other very easily. I don't think they are worth 260mp though, the setup time nerf didn't need to be accompanied by a 20mp increase.

  • #18
    7 months ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 369

    Maxim suppresses a single target faster than an MG42 quite reliably. A-move and you're done. The fact that that is true is unbelievable. It shouldn't suppress with the first burst 100% of the time.

  • #19
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Maxim suppresses a single target faster than an MG42 quite reliably. A-move and you're done. The fact that that is true is unbelievable. It shouldn't suppress with the first burst 100% of the time.

    It doesn't, I see squads take a full burst from a maxim all the time without going down. The mg42s rate of fire makes it suppress single targets just as fast, if not faster with how suppression works. Larger squads go down faster, so it'll put cons/sov elites down much faster than a maxim puts down grens or pgrens.

  • #20
    7 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,419

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Maxim suppresses a single target faster than an MG42 quite reliably. A-move and you're done. The fact that that is true is unbelievable. It shouldn't suppress with the first burst 100% of the time.

    It doesn't, I see squads take a full burst from a maxim all the time without going down. The mg42s rate of fire makes it suppress single targets just as fast, if not faster with how suppression works. Larger squads go down faster, so it'll put cons/sov elites down much faster than a maxim puts down grens or pgrens.

    Check you facts maxim pin faster. You can always test in cheat mode.

  • #21
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694

    @Vipper said:
    Check you facts maxim pin faster. You can always test in cheat mode.

    Pins what faster? A 42 pins cons just as fast as a maxim pins grens. Same squad size the maxim might pin faster, but that's not usually the case.

    42 also has better AOE suppression, so it pins groups faster. Squads with LOS blockers between them can get suppressed on occasion just for being near a squad taking fire. The maxims pin time is a non-issue, it has the smallest cone of any mg by far, if it doesn't pin fast it will never do its job unless squads are running straight it the entire time.

  • #22
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 583
    Its my experience as well mostly the mg42 pins 6 men faster then maxim pins 4 men.

    But i think that it has to do with maxims being argressive and attacking grens wich are mostly in (green) cover. And cons charging over all sorts of cover including negative cover towards a mg42.
  • #23
    7 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,419

    Pins what faster? A 42 pins cons just as fast as a maxim pins grens. Same squad size the maxim might pin faster, but that's not usually the case.

    42 also has better AOE suppression, so it pins groups faster. Squads with LOS blockers between them can get suppressed on occasion just for being near a squad taking fire. The maxims pin time is a non-issue, it has the smallest cone of any mg by far, if it doesn't pin fast it will never do its job unless squads are running straight it the entire time.

    "Maxim has highest suppression per bullet of any stock MG sitting at 0.0175 with a rate of fire of 8 rounds per 2.25 seconds.

    MG42 has the highest total suppression per burst of any stock MG sitting at 0.012 with a rate of fire of 16 rounds per 1.625 seconds."
    ShadowLinkX37

    "A-moving maxim pins down MG42 in green cover and wins the engagement (01:36:39 )

    much skill needed to pull off maxim spam"
    luvnest

  • #24
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694

    @Vipper said:
    "Maxim has highest suppression per bullet of any stock MG sitting at 0.0175 with a rate of fire of 8 rounds per 2.25 seconds.

    MG42 has the highest total suppression per burst of any stock MG sitting at 0.012 with a rate of fire of 16 rounds per 1.625 seconds."
    ShadowLinkX37

    Again, with incremental suppression, a maxim will pin 4 grens just as fast as a 42 pins cons a majority of the time. I'm well aware the maxim has the higher suppression values, the 42 has a much higher ROF to make up for that, and better AOE suppression.

    And citing one example where a maxim suppressed a 42 is hardly a far sample of an argument. The only reason that happened is cause the 42 squad was super clumped on a tiny sandbag. I'm not saying it should've happened, but you're not even using a scenario mgs usually find themselves in...

  • #25
    7 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,419
  • #26
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694
    edited March 15

    @Vipper Ironically you cropped out part of shadowlinks quote, where he says:
    "If I'm not mistaken, the suppression value is individually calculated per model and then once the squad as a whole reaches 0.2 total suppression they go into the suppressed state. <--- this could be totally wrong if someone knows the actual answer for sure"

    That sounds like incremental suppression to me, as I said, the 42 shooting cons will do just as well as a maxim shooting grens. More models means faster dropping, the only reason it didn't work in that video is the clumping of the 42, and because of another part of that thread you didn't mention:

    "Yeah, I think I recall the penalties from suppression and pinning between the two HMGs are basically alike percentages, but the actual increase to the reload times and suppression reduction are basically going to let the Maxim get un-pinned from the MG42 which will proceed to inevitably win regardless of cover thereafter in a 1v1 because unlike the Maxim, the MG42 won't really be shooting at some point." -Vuther

    That one scenario was caused by something that doesn't really occur in most of the scenarios you'll be using an MG. It only happened because of what Vuther just described. No,it shouldn't happen, but it's hardly a sign that the 42 is worse at suppressing across the board, only with mg vs mg can you say its definitively worse. As I said, vs single squads or groups of inf. (what you actually ask your mgs to fight 9/10), the 42 is as good if not better, especially with groups.

  • #27
    7 months ago
    Sri_vakaSri_vaka India Posts: 45
    edited March 15

    A possible solution for Maxim spam (just a suggestion)

    Maxims are spammed because they arrive too early and are quite durable compared to vickers/ mg42/ mg34. This is because soviet T2 is too cheap and T3 is too costly for its performance. My suggestion
    1. Increase the cost of T2 by 20 fuel.
    2. Revert nerfs on maxim. This is because the player is paying the extra cost and gets it late.
    3. Remove fuel cost from T1 (T1 is still optional and can be skipped but T3 needs T2 to be built).
    4. Reduce the cost of T3 by 20 fuel (to balance out an increase in T2 cost).

    By these changes... Maxim spam can be eliminated, maxims become more useful and arrive late like .50 cal MG.
    They'll be as powerful as they are before and player can get early t70 if he skips T1 (10 fuel advantage).

    Downsides of these changes:
    1. Makes Dshka and 120mm motor less attractive.
    2. Forces player to start with UP cons if he chooses to skip T1. (I believe cons need some buff )
    3. Zis is sill bad... and forcing T2 may make players to go for this.

  • #28
    7 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,419

    Suppression is a squad value and not individually calculated for each model.

  • #29
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694
    edited March 15

    @Vipper said:
    Suppression is a squad value and not individually calculated for each model.

    There is an incremental accuracy modifier does assist MGs performance against larger model squads, and its the only small arms that benefits from that, including lmgs. It's not a direct buff to the suppression, but it does assist the 42 against the 6-man squads especially.

    As I said, the only reason that maxim won that suppression battle in the one scenario is because of it being harmed less by suppression penalties in an MG to MG situation. For what mgs are asked to do, the MG42 suppresses just fine, and better in groups.

  • #30
    7 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,419
    edited March 16

    Maxim has more accuracy to begin with and the same incremental accuracy and is more accurate when firing on four men squad than a Hmg42 when firing on six man squad.

  • #31
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,860
    Supression is increased incremental bases on the amount of models, if i recal its every 3 models, i could be wrong on that. At any rate the idea is that the larger the blob that tries to brute force over a machine gun, the faster they eat dirt. Unfortunately soviet squads are large enough to trigger the effect amd gain additional supression over their less durable kin
«13
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