[OKW] Infantry

#1
7 months ago
Farra13Farra13 Posts: 625
edited March 14 in Balance Feedback

I noticed there was a lack of discussion open about what people expect, want and wish for in upcoming changes now that the WBP release is imminent and the next set of balance changes are being decided.

My personal opinion is that the four main problems with OKW infantry currently are:
1. Volks are currently overperforming for their cost.
2. The sturmpios are a bad platform for handheld at.
3. Obers timing is very poor due to tech cost.
4. The lack of smoke options hamstrings OKW infantry play heavily against mg spam/garrisons.

Feel free to agree of disagree, take note that the solutions I would suggest to said points are slightly controversial and as followed.

Drop volks down to a four man squad and increase their price to 270mp.
Equipped with 4 kar98k, model 24 grenade for 20 muni and salvage.
Choice of two upgrades being 90 muni panzershrek package or 90 muni for assualt package available after the first truck reaches the field.
Assualt package includes a squad sergeant and 3 stg44, improving mid/close range damage but reducing long range, unlocks the panzerfaust ability.
(The sergeant takes squad to five man and reduces incoming supression by 10%, the bulletin currently available would be removed)

Sturmpios remain at same cost but the vet3 stun grenade is removed.
Choice of offensive package for 30 muni that includes a smoke grenade and incendiary grenades, or support package for increased repair and minesweeper. Requirements for unlock being the same as volks.

Move Obers to the command headquarters, require construction of either med or mech truck to unlock.

This way each of the OKW infantry have a role as either close combat/anit-garrison sturms, mid-range/at volks or long range ai specialists in obers.

The only part I am unsure of is how a four man volks squad will handle having the shrek, they would lack both the durability and have 25% less ai potential that the volks of old, whilst lacking a snare and having a very basic grenade that would hopefully limit blobbing. They would also lack access to any supression reduction, making them more vunerable to mgs without affecting the volks current ability through the bulletin available in live.

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Comments

  • #2
    7 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,420
    edited March 14

    VG are OP but one should first fix the Allied infantry, that are op and then anything else.

    Infantry available before minute 1 should be re-balanced as they where on the September patch. Then vet bonus and abilities should be fixed so that they help units with their corresponding roles...

  • #3
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,860
    I was skeptical at first but i rather like your proposals HOWEVER imo a big contribution to volks blobs was how fast they could get back to ship shape, i could be wrong and -1 model could make all the difference BUT i think self healing at vet 3 might need removed or pushed to a higher vet and/or a hlonger reinforcement time.

    I particularly like the ober suggestion, but they may need the lmg delayed till 2 trucks and perhaps buffed slightly to compensate as you can get the med truck after only 45 fuel and that lmg is a monster
  • #4
    7 months ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 369
    edited March 14

    Playing as OKW a lot recently and the words 'Volks OP' in the same sentence rarely computes :S What are riflemen then?

    I like sturm suggestion.

  • #5
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,860
    @squishymuffin when conpared to efa for only 10mp more volks absolutely are too strong, they are mid way between cons and grens in advantage without eithers token drawback, granted so do rifles who ALSO have the ability to pick and mix equipment, but they a known problem as well (which is being slightly addressed in wbp)
    Wfa tossed out reason and requirment for out dated features like "cover" and "combined arms" and introduced "spam your mainline and if you meet too much resistance retreat to your frp, economically heal and try again, but with more vet"

    Efa was about tactics, wfa turned the game into wave defence (or tower defence in the case of the brits)
  • #6
    7 months ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 369

    Yep I agree. But there are a lot of different turning cogs that need to be addressed beforehand and at the same time. I would say only 10mp more but on a faction with no smoke, no sniper, no mg (34 doesn't count cos it's so bad), no handheld at, no real at gun and cannot build caches etc etc.

    Again initial costs of mainline infantry isn't a huge decider in balance imo. Reinforcement and their overall dps is (be it models or gun).

  • #7
    7 months ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,884

    It actually looks pretty solid. Only issues I see are more balance than design related. Volks losing a model and having a cost hike seems like it'll hurt pretty hard and the 90 muni price on the Pshrek seems a bit high considering the presence of so many other muni-sinks.

  • #8
    7 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 625

    I'll fully admit this is more of a design outline than a full balance suggestion. The changes though are taken with consideration towards the EFA factions rather than the WFA, as I believe that rifles and IS will get toned down, meaning Volks will need to be as well if any sembalance of balance between SOV and OKW is going to exist.

    The reason i thought an increase on the volks squad cost was justified is two fold, first it means that it relieves some of their incredible cost effectiveness, as currently Volks perform far beyond their price. Second, it would discourage trying to create shreks blobs again, as a high initial mp cost and a solid muni sink would force players to consider using a mix or Raks and shreks to be more affordable.

    Volks would only really lose a model initialy, when they grab an stg upgrade they recieve a fifth man. This is another step towards discouraging shrek blobs, as a four man squad is a hell of alot less durable and effective at ai than a five man. Admittedly you could always make the stg upgrade cheaper if the overall cost of the squad becomes too high.

    That's my way of thinking anyway. This topic was mainly opened as their is little dialog discussing OKW infantry currently, asd its something that wil have to be looked into in the near future.

  • #9
    7 months ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,884

    Fair points, and its definitely better/more interesting than the mess we have now. I'm on board

  • #10
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 584
    I havent seen obers for a long time but wont letting them coming that early make them a tad to good?
  • #11
    7 months ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 541

    4 man volks is a terrible idea. I'd say that volks just start off with worse stats at vet 0 and same stats at vet 5 as they have right now. I've made a thread addressing how to balance WFA infantry.

  • #12
    7 months ago
    comrade_daelincomrade_d… Posts: 2,947

    I personally think adding or moving panzerschreck upgrade to Obers would give them some relevance in late game. By that time you're spending 400 mp and a queue slot for medium tanks, for a 4-man unit that's great against infantry, during a time where tanks are going to be popping up.

    If they're not going to get AT then I do sort of think it;'s better if they are unlocked earlier at previous HQ trucks. This way you're so pending 400mp for excellent AI, but in lieu of teching up, a different dilemma than spending 400mp instead of a Panzer 4 or whatever.

    As for smoke, I think ISG used to have it, and if so I didn't see the point of removing it. Literally every other team arty in the game can fire smoke; the only exception is pack howitzer, but it can throw WP shells at vet1, which also performs smoke screen. Not to mention ISG comes in T2 and isn't easily accessible. So much for infantry support.

    Thing about Volks is that neither Sturms or Obers can be fielded easily to augment them, much easier to just spam more Volks; they're cheaper, larger, and can do most things that the other two units can do at reasonable cost-effect. Volks are kind of forced to be OP simply because other infantry options are so constrained in access cost and utility. All the changes made to the "Volksblob" problem never made Sturms and Obers more attractive to use, so people just spam Volks despite the reduced effectiveness- it's still better than investing so much on more expensive, smaller units. With the STG upgrade only reason to get Sturms is AT and repairs. With larger squad size and cheap cost it's better to just have your Volks close in and throw flame grenade instead of getting an Ober to try to shoot a target from long range.

  • #13
    7 months ago
    kingdun3284kingdun32… Posts: 1,086
    If ober comes earlier, then paratroopers and rangers and m1919 ,commando,shocks should come at cp1
  • #14
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 584

    people dont build more sturms or obers for that matter because of how cost effecient and durable volks are and their self heal with vet keeps them on the field even longer no need to retreat. this is why okw does not need to get other AI infantree.

    Why get more expensive units when volks will always get your through the game. volks need a cost increase to a minimum of 280mp or a nerf to durabilty. then okw will build other infantree instead of just spamming volks. volks are just to effective now. maybe make the stg upgrade so that is sacrifices long range dps.

    this way obers can stay where they are and shocks para,s etc can stay at 2cps. (that would otherwise hurt ost the most)

  • #15
    7 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,703
    Agreed that Volks definitely need a nerf however regardless of what happens with them Obers do not perform for cost and the listed changes would fix that. To keep it balanced is a simple matter of locking the MG34 behind the flak HQ.

    Elite call in infantry should stay 2CP. They have absolutely nothing to do with Obers.
  • #16
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 584

    i agree that obers do not preform at their price level, but allowing them to come out with their current stats after one truck is built, to me that is not the way to go.

    i feel that it will impact the game to much even with their current stats and lmg/stgs. it will make the shrecks package for volks a very easy (no brainer) choice. somewhat bringing the shreck blob back again.

  • #17
    7 months ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 935
    Coming back after a long hiatus, but wanted to throw this out there..; maybe change the Obers so they become a doc-only unit? The allied factions has lots of call-in elite infantry units(which is a hamstring as well as a saving grace), so perhaps OKW should have one ad well? It would solve the problem of them being too powerful(limiting them to a few doctrines)while at the same time keeping them at at a fairly high power-level(since they are now non-stock).
    I'm thinking maybe put them in Fortifications Doctrine, replacing the much hated addition of the lefh and in the Special Operations doctrine, replacing the(almost) irrelevant radio intercept.
    This would keep them powerful(kinda like shocks), while at the same time not too powerful.
    Maybe restrictions would be needed to prevent them from being the go-to docs, but I think that could be solved tbh...

    And anyways, nobody is using them as is atm, so I don't that it would make much of an impact atm.
  • #18
    7 months ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,884

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    people dont build more sturms or obers for that matter because of how cost effecient and durable volks are...

    People don't build Sturms because anything bigger than stock cons will chew them to pieces after the first few minutes. Obers aren't built for a laundry list of reasons, but mostly because they arrive late and underperform without their absurd veterancy. Trying to build one or two volks while rushing for Obers just doesn't work, try as I might.

  • #19
    7 months ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,847

    I see Strums built all the time, they're good units with strong close range AI and good AT and utility. Also, volks are on the OP side, I see them overwhelming double-brenned IS's and barred riflemen, despite the massively larger investment the former take.

  • #20
    7 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 625

    @1ncendiary_Rounds First of all concerning volks, we cannot by any means move the shrek back to their unit if they remain a five man squad, we all remember the infamous OKW shrekblob that used to shield the KT. Not good times.

    @comrade_daelin The problem that Obers present by giving them access to shreks is that they are a very expensive platform, meaning its likely that to justify their current mp cost that you would have to give them 2-shreks, this would also prevent them from being too good a combo of AI and AT, as P-grens were before the shrek upgrades were rolled into a single package. Such a change would also really mirror OST and put a real damper on faction design.

    If you take away the volks incendiary nade, push their stg into a mid-range upgrade that actually limits their long-range damage, it forces a player to really mix their forces early on, Obers would be the long range specialists, sturms the cqc/anti-garrison and volks remain the mainlines that screen, snare and provide a stable cost-effective platform for the handheld at.

    @kingdun3284 Obers are rather limited without their weapon upgrades, they are potent but not anywhere near the threat they are when equipped with mg-34/stg. Its simple as @Lazarus said, locking the weapon upgrades behind the schwerer would easily balance them for the early game. With them having better timing by hitting the field earlier, they would vet correctly and scale properly into the game without the risk of overbuffing them due to their current tech time to compensate for them arriving so late.

    @TheLeveler83 Remember if volks don't have anti-garrison capabilities, an OKW player would need to invest in sturms to not only to have early smoke and the ability to clear buildings, but also a second squad to clear mines and repair, so already they are forced to diversify their early infantry force just to be flexible.

    Then if Obers were available earlier, players would want to grab them as soon as possible to vet them and compensate for the volks loss of long range damage when they upgrade stgs to grab that fifth man.

    As for shrek blobs, if volks sacrificed both their snare and a fifth man in order to wield a shrek, they would be far more vunerable and lack any real ai to push off penals, rifles or IS.

  • #21
    7 months ago

    Will Kubel and doctrine units be discussed?

  • #22
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 584
    @Farra13

    The volks will still be the most produced inf squad for okw. So 3 volks with 6 shrecks ( to me package means more then one ) will uttertly destroy all armour but is2. sturms and obers coming early will be enough to keep inf away ( allied inf will be nerfed ) Luchs will also help with this.

    Volks are the wrong unit for shrecks imo.
  • #23
    7 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 625
    edited March 16

    @TheLeveler83 An upgrade for volks would be a single shrek, throw in a base price hike, lack of snare, lack of incendiary grenade on a four man squad, it would be very ineffective to blob.

    @Boris_yeltsin Its mainly the relation of the OKW's three main infatry, Volks, Sturms and Obers.

  • #24
    7 months ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 541

    I think the schrecks for OKW should remain on the sturms. I think that was a good change. Maybe the price should be dropped to 75.

  • #25
    7 months ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 541
    edited March 16

    @kingdun3284 said:
    If ober comes earlier, then paratroopers and rangers and m1919 ,commando,shocks should come at cp1

    I've noticed quite a few of your posts have been absurdly inaccurate. I can probably make a thread about all the ignorant things you say/propose. No offense, but L2P. It's not my job to point out the least informed forum members, but I want to help actively improve the quality of the forums. People make mistakes and occasionally have biased feelings towards certain things but your posts are beyond that. I feel its time to call you out on your general lack of knowledge for the game.

  • #26
    7 months ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 541

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Playing as OKW a lot recently and the words 'Volks OP' in the same sentence rarely computes :S What are riflemen then?

    I like sturm suggestion.

    Both volks are riflemen are OP. Hell WFA mainlines are all op to an extent. The best case scenario for this game is to balance them all the EFA levels.

  • #27
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 584
    @Farra13

    That changes my perspective i was under the impression that it whas a double shreck upgrade like p grens.

    But still moving the shreck away from main inf such as volks is a good change imo.
  • #28
    7 months ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 369

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    I think the schrecks for OKW should remain on the sturms. I think that was a good change. Maybe the price should be dropped to 75.

    It is expensive for what it does...why is its accuracy so bad?? Anyone?

  • #29
    7 months ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 541
    edited March 16

    @SquishyMuffin said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    I think the schrecks for OKW should remain on the sturms. I think that was a good change. Maybe the price should be dropped to 75.

    It is expensive for what it does...why is its accuracy so bad?? Anyone?

    I don't think the accuracy is bad. It's just too expensive for what it does right now. The problem is that OKW doesn't get double schrecks like Ost does so the dps from a single schreck may seem lacking because you can't double wield or spam them on volks anymore, hence the presence of schrecks on the field is considerably diminished. You can't rely on schreck spam anymore which is good

  • #30
    7 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 584

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @SquishyMuffin said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    I think the schrecks for OKW should remain on the sturms. I think that was a good change. Maybe the price should be dropped to 75.

    It is expensive for what it does...why is its accuracy so bad?? Anyone?

    I don't think the accuracy is bad. It's just too expensive for what it does right now. The problem is that OKW doesn't get double schrecks like Ost does so the dps from a single schreck may seem lacking because you can't double wield or spam them on volks anymore, hence the presence of schrecks on the field is considerably diminished.

    okw also get a t0 at gun with ninja skills and still has use on the later game. ost doesnt.

    In the past shrecks on volks sniped tanks with almost every rocket at long range. i think that is why.

  • #31
    7 months ago
    raulmagana121707raulmagan… Northern CaliPosts: 192

    I dnt think thiers anything wrong with volks at the moment. Obers should not be moved b/c they will be nefed, and that will make them less useful to me. I like the idea of an AT ober upgrade, so I suggest one shrek and 3 AT rifles for 90 muni; however, I want the shrek to do more dmg to structures, and I want the AT rifles to ignore any cover bonus against entrenched inf. If I'm forced to choose between one lousy shrek or awesome lmg, I'm going lmg always, so we need to sweeten the trade with the AT rifles plus performance buff.

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