[USF and UKF] (1v1) Only allow one weapon upgrade for rear ech and sappers.

24

Comments

  • #32
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,294
    @1ncendiary_Rounds no its not a small thing, but its a detail easily missed, dont speak ill of their experience for something like that. Its not like they sidnt know ost has battlephases or something.
  • #33
    1 year ago
    @1ncendiary_Rounds

    Something like that is easy to miss ost has a big muni dump bigger then soviets. I mostly find i lack the neccesary muni to upgrade and focus more on that then the territory they are in.
    I thought they could do that anyware (at least at one point)

    I was wrong and was corrected, that is life nobody knows it all. Everyone screws up sometime.
  • #34
    1 year ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,847

    The need to go back to base, spend precious mp and fuel (delaying tech) on sidegrades in order to upgrade weapons is a big tradeoff. I play ost half the time and the ability to upgrade in the field is huge in terms of tactical flexibility and sidegrades really hurt in terms of teching early game. The argument that this tradeoff is negligible is just nonsense.

  • #35
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited March 2017

    @MCMartel said:
    The need to go back to base, spend precious mp and fuel (delaying tech) on sidegrades in order to upgrade weapons is a big tradeoff. I play ost half the time and the ability to upgrade in the field is huge in terms of tactical flexibility and sidegrades really hurt in terms of teching early game. The argument that this tradeoff is negligible is just nonsense.

    Weapon racks are very cheap only 15 fuel, how much benefit do you expect to get from it? They basically allow riflemen to be extremely pop cap efficient. Just think about it. If Ost had racks, I could upgrade any infantry with schrecks. Dirt cheap pios would be perfect. Pios will then quickly vet up and get the repair bonus speed. Who'd put them on pgrens? The advantage of racks is that you can equip whatever u like on whatever unit you like. There is a reason why schrecks can only be on expensive mp and pop cap units. I'm simply trying to bring this weapon rack ability down to earth cuz it's allowing zook spam on the cheap.

    THe "going back to base" excuse doesn't cut it. At least USF and UKF bases are prebuilt and the teching is just a one-click tech so this takes less micro and less units brought off the front lines to build base structures. However, I think that players shouldn't need to click on a rack to pick up a weapon. That is too microintensive. Simply allow soldiers in the base sector to upgrade by having potential upgrades as a button on the unit (just like Ost or OKW)

  • #36
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,612

    Ostheer infantry have to go base all the time to heal and reinforce since they do not have a FRP or movable heal/retreat point.

    OKW can get FRP and heal but is much more expensive and it is stationary.

    And PLS lets stop not repeat this side tech advantage argument because it hold very little water. If one checks the tech cost post one will see that axis do not have cheaper tech.

  • #37
    1 year ago

    nobody said axis tech is cheaper, axis get unlocks as they tech up. no extra costs or choices for some basic kit such as at grenades grenades or hh at weapons.

    side tech does have impact you can choose to take a risk and tech up faster without snare or zooks etc. and be punished for it.

  • #38
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,612
    edited March 2017

    And that is exactly the benefit of side tech. You have a choice with linear teaching you do not have choice.

    If one is fighting in urban map an allied play can tech grenades fast to dislodge units from garrison, while an axis player can not. linear teching is simply not an advantage as advertised.

    If I was playing like Ostheer or OKW I would love to be able to unlock weapon upgrades and grenades without having to wait or pay extra cost for thing I do not need at that time.

  • #39
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,935

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    The fact that rifle/IS can double equip when grens cannot is already a big advantage. No need to give a 200mp 5 pop cap unit the exact same benefit.

    Why? It's useless without it. Just because it's cheap doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to double equip. Given the rest of their abilities, which are minimal, seems just fine to me.

    @Vipper said:
    And that is exactly the benefit of side tech. You have a choice with linear teaching you do not have choice.

    If one is fighting in urban map an allied play can tech grenades fast to dislodge units from garrison, while an axis player can not. linear teching is simply not an advantage as advertised.

    And if you do that, your teching is delayed, and that can be punished pretty easily depending on the faction. For US, getting frags up before a tech is very inadvisable, as you need 50-60 fuel before you can even get an MG or AT gun. Getting mollys up early is no problem, but they are by far the worst grenade in game. I understand they're cheap, but when you combine throw time and range its very rare to get good use out of them unless your opponent is taking a snooze.

  • #40
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited March 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    The fact that rifle/IS can double equip when grens cannot is already a big advantage. No need to give a 200mp 5 pop cap unit the exact same benefit.

    Why? It's useless without it. Just because it's cheap doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to double equip. Given the rest of their abilities, which are minimal, seems just fine to me.

    As you would say, "Oh, the humanity!" only being allowed one zook and a sweeper on RE would render them useless. Except pios and engis, can't even get another weapon after getting a sweeper.

  • #41
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    And if you do that, your teching is delayed, and that can be punished pretty easily depending on the faction. For US, getting frags up before a tech is very inadvisable, as you need 50-60 fuel before you can even get an MG or AT gun. Getting mollys up early is no problem, but they are by far the worst grenade in game. I understand they're cheap, but when you combine throw time and range its very rare to get good use out of them unless your opponent is taking a snooze.

    Why do u need frags when u have the mortar? Even after the nerfs, its still a solid piece of equipment to pry away at any stationary units. Ost and OKW don't get nades after teching so, the first 5 minutes, Axis will be without grenades as well. Riflemen, and IS flatout beat Volks and grens without grenades unless u charge riflemen through red cover. And we're not talking about SU right now. I agree something needs to be done about the molly. Also, AT guns and mgs are completely optional for USF for the first 10 minutes of the game. If you need an mg that early, you're doing something wrong. USF should be on the offensive, Axis on the defensive. If your a good USF player, you should be able to easily contain Axis into a small part of the map with just riflemen and mortars. And you don't need hard AT. The stuart is more than enough vs 222 or luchs.

  • #42
    1 year ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,847

    So there's additional tech cost, the requirement to retreat every time you want to re-equip, losing important time early in the game, all while having bazookas and piats which are significantly weaker than shreks, I'm not really sure how much more of a tradeoff you guys want.

  • #43
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited March 2017

    @MCMartel said:
    So there's additional tech cost, the requirement to retreat every time you want to re-equip, losing important time early in the game, all while having bazookas and piats which are significantly weaker than shreks, I'm not really sure how much more of a tradeoff you guys want.

    Stop drinking the fake news Kool-Aid. Zooks are not significantly weaker than shrecks. I don't know how many times I've needed to debunk this myth on these forums. And the piat is getting buffed which can likely make it OP

  • #44
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,612
    edited March 2017

    Part of the reason the OKW have trouble vs maxim spam is that they have to set up a truck before even having access to flame grenades. If incendiary grenades was side tech costing 125MP 15FU OKW would be in much better place so linear teching is actually a disadvantage for them. Even as is molotovs are great for dealing with garrison.

    Weapon rack is serious advantage USF have, it allows all USF to equip with 1 or 2 weapon and if the only draw back is that one has to return to base to do so it is a small price indeed.

  • #45
    1 year ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,847
    1. @1ncendiary_Rounds: Stop if Trump, not everything you dislike is "fake news" they're less effective in multiple as. The piat is getting nerfed in a number of ways, it's just going to be on the same level as zookas as opposed to the garbage it is right now
    2. Except that you're completely discounting the massive advantage that the OKW get to deploy their base anywhere they want, and how every base building is either a healing unit or a base defense, but hey, don't pretend to be impartial.
  • #46
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,945

    @MCMartel said:
    So there's additional tech cost, the requirement to retreat every time you want to re-equip, losing important time early in the game, all while having bazookas and piats which are significantly weaker than shreks, I'm not really sure how much more of a tradeoff you guys want.

    Additional tech cost is a very relative term. Overall tech costs, including side tech, still favour the USF vs. Wehr or OKW for that matter. The Sidgrades are not a liability. They are an option you can use or opt out of. Whr for example dont have that advantage. They pay 280 MP and 70 fuel for the ability to use Fausts and Grenades whether they want it or not.

    1. Except that you're completely discounting the massive advantage that the OKW get to deploy their base anywhere they want, and how every base building is either a healing unit or a base defense, but hey, don't pretend to be impartial.

    And you forget that those healing abilities require additional side tech... So they must be crappy seeing how its so terrible for USF et al. to have them.

  • #47
    1 year ago

    @Hingie said:

    @MCMartel said:
    So there's additional tech cost, the requirement to retreat every time you want to re-equip, losing important time early in the game, all while having bazookas and piats which are significantly weaker than shreks, I'm not really sure how much more of a tradeoff you guys want.

    Additional tech cost is a very relative term. Overall tech costs, including side tech, still favour the USF vs. Wehr or OKW for that matter. The Sidgrades are not a liability. They are an option you can use or opt out of. Whr for example dont have that advantage. They pay 280 MP and 70 fuel for the ability to use Fausts and Grenades whether they want it or not.

    1. Except that you're completely discounting the massive advantage that the OKW get to deploy their base anywhere they want, and how every base building is either a healing unit or a base defense, but hey, don't pretend to be impartial.

    And you forget that those healing abilities require additional side tech... So they must be crappy seeing how its so terrible for USF et al. to have them.

    And the forward retreat point is 300mp where the major gets it for FREE plus the major (plus the other awesome abilities the major gets that other factions need doctrines for) and ambulance can be moved away if there is danger, unlike the battlegroup HQ of OKW. The Flak HQ is great for defense but also has its drawbacks is u need to protect it since you still need it to build tanks. And of course, USF get FREE units for teching. I think Relic took it took literally when they say America is the "land of the FREE."

  • #48
    1 year ago

    yes the usf has a healing station and retreat point that can be moved. but are also a lot easier to take out then the okw ones. usf get free squads and okw gets free area denial for a while plus it gives okw even more AA.

  • #49
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,935
    edited March 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    And the forward retreat point is 300mp where the major gets it for FREE plus the major (plus the other awesome abilities the major gets that other factions need doctrines for) and ambulance can be moved away if there is danger, unlike the battlegroup HQ of OKW.

    You can field the battlegroup FRP far earlier than a major, so it needs that cost. You can also dislodge a major FRP far more easily than a Battlegroup.

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    As you would say, "Oh, the humanity!" only being allowed one zook and a sweeper on RE would render them useless. Except pios and engis, can't even get another weapon after getting a sweeper.

    I never said it was Okay for REs to get the sweeper and 2 zooks. That I have no problem with removing, but asserting that their cheapness is a reason they should never be allowed 2 zooks is not a good argument. They're cheap because they provide so little without upgrades.

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Why do u need frags when u have the mortar? Even after the nerfs, its still a solid piece of equipment to pry away at any stationary units.

    Seriously? Because I don't open with the same build order for every game on every map that's why. I play mostly 2v2s, grenades can be better for anti-garrison depending on the map. If it's large I'd rather not have to wait for the mortar to move to every single building I want to clear, especially one that now has the shortest range in the game.

  • #50
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    You can field the battlegroup FRP far earlier than a major, so it needs that cost. You can also dislodge a major FRP far more easily than a Battlegroup.

    I never said it was Okay for REs to get the sweeper and 2 zooks. That I have no problem with removing, but asserting that their cheapness is a reason they should never be allowed 2 zooks is not a good argument. They're cheap because they provide so little without upgrades.

    I was simply proving that OKW is not more privileged than USF because McMartel was arguing how great OKW trucks were and gave OKW a great advantage. So if you agree that RE shouldn't be allowed to double equip then what's the problem? Even if we agree on that for different reasons, there's no point in arguing about why exactly RE shouldn't get double slots.

  • #51
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,935
    edited March 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    So if you agree that RE shouldn't be allowed to double equip then what's the problem? Even if we agree on that for different reasons, there's no point in arguing about why exactly RE shouldn't get double slots.

    I don't agree with you. I said they shouldn't be allowed 2 zooks AND a sweeper. I still very much think they should be allowed to double equip, however upgrading to sweeper should void the ability to equip zooks/bars.

  • #52
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited March 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    So if you agree that RE shouldn't be allowed to double equip then what's the problem? Even if we agree on that for different reasons, there's no point in arguing about why exactly RE shouldn't get double slots.

    I don't agree with you. I said they shouldn't be allowed 2 zooks AND a sweeper. I still very much think they should be allowed to double equip, however upgrading to sweeper should void the ability to equip zooks/bars.

    So what if I can double equip pios and CE with flamers and burst down garrisons like the flamer HT? Will allied players cry? If you void all weapon slots due to a sweeper, that is an even bigger nerf to RE than what I proposed. I propose that sweeper can be equipped wihtout affecting slots but limit # of slots to 1.

  • #53
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,935
    edited March 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    So what if I can double equip pios and CE with flamers and burst down garrisons like the flamer HT? Will allied players cry?

    Last I checked CEs are an allied squad so that's a strange question....

    And do you really not understand why it's not a good idea to give any squad double flamethrowers? That's one of the cheesiest ideas I've ever heard dude. Ever picked up a second flamer somebody dropped? Turns squads into a genocide machine on certain maps especially. The more urban ones like ettelbruck and dusseldorf would be filled with double flamers everywhere.

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    If you void all weapon slots due to a sweeper, that is an even bigger nerf to RE than what I proposed. I propose that sweeper can be equipped wihtout affecting slots but limit # of slots to 1.

    But it's far more in line with your own logic, part of which I agree with. Getting the sweeper on EFA engineers prevents you from buying a flamer. Western engies need to be more aligned with eastern, choosing between the roles is a fair trade. It's damn near impossible to get vet bonuses on a CE with a sweeper. Seems unfair to give REs a copout to that. Sturms sweeper can't get shrecks or flamer etc.

  • #54
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    Seriously? Because I don't open with the same build order for every game on every map that's why. I play mostly 2v2s, grenades can be better for anti-garrison depending on the map. If it's large I'd rather not have to wait for the mortar to move to every single building I want to clear, especially one that now has the shortest range in the game.

    What about Brit or Soviet mortars? Teammates can help. And saying that the mortar range is too short is telling me that you should practice your micro then. Because Ostheer has the most difficult micro due to the weak and unreliable units unable to operate alone as well as dependance on directional support weapons. Don't cry that the mortar just got a bit more micro intensive when you micro easy, free-running riflemen. It's no longer a "buy and forget" wiping machine that so many USF player get duplicates of to get skilless and microless wipes. Now u actually have to see where your mortar is at and keep it in supporting range. USF still has the option of getting their pak howi later for those long range snipes. And don't forget the scott later on. And grenade tech may cost more than racks, because it's not just grenade tech, that op smoke for just 15 munis is still there despite USF receiving a mortar that also has smoke.

  • #55
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,935
    edited March 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Don't cry that the mortar just got a bit more micro intensive when you micro easy, free-running riflemen

    I'm not, I proposed nerfing the mortar's range and giving it a fast pack-up/setup time long before WBP even started.

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    And saying that the mortar range is too short is telling me that you should practice your micro then. Because Ostheer has the most difficult micro due to the weak and unreliable units unable to operate alone as well as dependance on directional support weapons.

    Stop lecturing me on how you think I'm playing wrong. Please stop quoting me if you're gonna refrain from balance suggestions and tell me to L2P. Literally does nothing for the conversation.

  • #56
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    So what if I can double equip pios and CE with flamers and burst down garrisons like the flamer HT? Will allied players cry?

    Last I checked CEs are an allied squad so that's a strange question....

    And do you really not understand why it's not a good idea to give any squad double flamethrowers? That's one of the cheesiest ideas I've ever heard dude. Ever picked up a second flamer somebody dropped? Turns squads into a genocide machine on certain maps especially. The more urban ones like ettelbruck and dusseldorf would be filled with double flamers everywhere.

    My mistake, I meant WFA would cry. Anyways, you get the point. Double flamer would be batshit op. Just like double zooks. Two double zooked RE can burst down any medium in seconds before you can retreat the tank. In an ideal situation you might be able to get away with a bit of health left, but your tank may be in the process or turning, or its get stuck against a building and can't reverse, etc.... At the cost of only 10 pop cap, most anti-armor needs can be fullfilled till the very late game.

  • #57
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,935
    edited March 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Two double zooked RE can burst down any medium in seconds before you can retreat the tank.

    That's 400 mp and 200 muni that is dedicated to fighting nothing but armor and repairing the occasional tank. And seconds? It takes 12.76 seconds for those squads to get off 2 volleys of those 2 zooks each, the minimum required to kill a p4. That assumes all of those zooks do not miss (very unlikely), and that that they all penetrate (also very unlikely).

    On average you will need 3-4 volleys from 2 2x zook squads, and that totals in 19.14-25.52 seconds. If you can't run a p4 away from 2 infantry squads in that time, well, as you would say this "is telling me that you should practice your micro then".

  • #58
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    Stop lecturing me on how you think I'm playing wrong. You're being incredibly annoying right now, all I'm doing is explaining to you why I choose to get grenades sometime. Please stop quoting me if you're gonna refrain from balance suggestions and tell me to L2P. Literally does nothing for the conversation.

    I'm pointing out the privilege that USF players take for granted about their faction. It's extremely easy to micro a bunch of riflemen and a stuart. Why do you think a disproportionate number of newcomers love to play USF. And now the OP mortar is getting nerfed and suddenly the cost of teching grenades is too high? lol. USF certainly won't have it this easy anymore, that's for sure. But in no way is USF going to suffer from teching. Few players know that the AA halftrack is actually better AI than the Stuart but nobody goes for it because the Stuart is (drumroll), yet guessed it, easier to micro and hence if one asks any USF fanboy, they will say that the AA halftrack is shit when in truth, it's not op but average (or just a bit below average) performing for its price . The other reason is that it can be challenged by a 222 or luchs but if USF player has decent micro to keep the back facing the enemy, the 222 and luchs will be shredded.

  • #59
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,935

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    I'm pointing out the privilege that USF players take for granted about their faction. It's extremely easy to micro a bunch of riflemen and a stuart.

    I am not all USF players. I am one of them, and I certainly do not take the privelages they offer for granted. Stop quoting me if you're going to use me to vent about your frustrations with the entire faction. This is ridiculous dude.

  • #60
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Two double zooked RE can burst down any medium in seconds before you can retreat the tank.

    That's 400 mp and 200 muni that is dedicated to fighting nothing but armor and repairing the occasional tank. And seconds? It takes 12.76 seconds for those squads to get off 2 volleys of those 2 zooks each, the minimum required to kill a p4. That assumes all of those zooks do not miss (very unlikely), and that that they all penetrate (also very unlikely).

    On average you will need 3-4 volleys from 2 2x zook squads, and that totals in 19.14-25.52 seconds. If you can't run a p4 away from 2 infantry squads in that time, well, as you would say this "is telling me that you should practice your micro then".

    I said, in ideal circumstance you CAN run away with a bit of health left. And not all shots are against the front armor. You realize that the RE don't even have to be somewhat behind the tank to hit the rear. I've had plenty of times when AT infantry were simply a bit to the left or right of my tank to get off rear armor shots. Therefore 2-3 volleys is easily enough. And in those 12 seconds, if you somehow retreat into some riflemen, and get snared, well, say goodbye to that tank.

    Similarly, a shcreck pgren is 340mp and 120 munis. The price is far worse for OKW. I'd need 3 volleys vs any medium with would take 8*3 = 24s. And depending on the tank, pgrens wouldn't survive chasing for 24s when two 4-5 man RE easily survive 12s chasing after the poor accuracy on the move axis armor.

  • #61
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,612
    edited March 2017

    Bazooka reloads 5.75 so it take them about that time to fire 2 volleys because the come loaded.

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