[USF and UKF] (1v1) Only allow one weapon upgrade for rear ech and sappers.

13

Comments

  • #62
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 2,082
    edited March 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Similarly, a shcreck pgren is 340mp and 120 munis. The price is far worse for OKW. I'd need 3 volleys vs any medium with would take 8*3 = 24s.

    That's because they also perform better against better armored mediums/heavies. Bazookas specialize in killing standard mediums, above that shrecks perform better due to pen and damage differences. The reload speed helps most with softer armor.

  • #63
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 2,082
    edited March 2017

    @Vipper said:
    Bazooka reloads 5.75 so it take them about that time to fire 2 volleys because the come loaded.

    Only if the tank is the first thing the REs see. You can't tell AT infantry to prioritize.

    And literally any supporting infantry squad can fight REs with zooks. They already have almost no AI combat effectiveness after the first few minutes, and when you give them zooks anything can fight them off.

  • #64
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Similarly, a shcreck pgren is 340mp and 120 munis. The price is far worse for OKW. I'd need 3 volleys vs any medium with would take 8*3 = 24s.

    That's because they also perform better against better armored mediums/heavies. Bazookas specialize in killing standard mediums, above that shrecks perform better due to pen and damage differences. The reload speed helps most with softer armor.

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    Bazooka reloads 5.75 so it take them about that time to fire 2 volleys because the come loaded.

    Only if the tank is the first thing the REs see. You can't tell AT infantry to prioritize.

    Easy way to prevent them from firing is to keep them on the move. But anyways, its much faster to kill Axis mediums, period. I can see that zooks have a problem vs heavies but then the Axis TDs have problems vs Heavies due to poor pen so schrecks are there to assist. I think your idea could be a decent solution but the only problem is the RE has combat bonuses from vet unlike pios and CE

    Rear Echelon Troops

    vet 1:+20% accuracy

    vet 2:+50% repair speed , -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown

    vet 3: Increases the squad's size to 5

    I think the cooldown is especially problematic as well as the 5 man vet is op. Cooldown makes zooks fire even faster and 5 man is op since its more durable than axis AT inf as received accuracy from pgrens, sturms don't matter as much due to receiving AoE damage mainly. I think allowing double zooks, but no sweeper is ok, only if the cooldown, and extra man bonuses are removed. RE are NOT frontline troops so therefore giving them combat bonuses in addition to repair spd is op.

  • #65
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 2,082
    edited March 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    I think the cooldown is especially problematic as well as the 5 man vet is op. Cooldown makes zooks fire even faster and 5 man is op since its more durable than axis AT inf as received accuracy from pgrens, sturms don't matter as much due to receiving AoE damage mainly. I think allowing double zooks, but no sweeper is ok, only if the cooldown, and extra man bonuses are removed. RE are NOT frontline troops so therefore giving them combat bonuses in addition to repair spd is op.

    Veterancy bonuses is a different convo. Cause if you take the zook REs performance against a OKW p4, none of that is unfair given the 236 armor. Most of those shots will be doing 20 damage. I think Western mainlines should be brought down to Eastern equivalents, in the engineer category it should go the other way (except for repair speeds). As far as utility/combat, the EFA should go up. Pios are in this patch, and the sight range bonus they got a while back was in that spirit.

    I just don't think double flamers is a logical way to make them better. They both need to be able to vet better if you get a sweeper. IMO they should get experience from mine damage and kills regardless of upgrade, and with sweeper their vet rate should be increased like 50%, since they become completely ineffective.

    Handheld AT is also getting that vet rate nerf. Which will make it much harder to get that 5th man on res

  • #66
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited March 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    I think the cooldown is especially problematic as well as the 5 man vet is op. Cooldown makes zooks fire even faster and 5 man is op since its more durable than axis AT inf as received accuracy from pgrens, sturms don't matter as much due to receiving AoE damage mainly. I think allowing double zooks, but no sweeper is ok, only if the cooldown, and extra man bonuses are removed. RE are NOT frontline troops so therefore giving them combat bonuses in addition to repair spd is op.

    Veterancy bonuses is a different convo. Cause if you take the zook REs performance against a OKW p4, none of that is unfair given the 236 armor. Most of those shots will be doing 20 damage. I think Western mainlines should be brought down to Eastern equivalents, in the engineer category it should go the other way (except for repair speeds). As far as utility/combat, the EFA should go up. Pios are in this patch, and the sight range bonus they got a while back was in that spirit.

    I just don't think double flamers is a logical way to make them better. They both need to be able to vet better if you get a sweeper. IMO they should get experience from mine damage and kills regardless of upgrade, and with sweeper their vet rate should be increased like 50%, since they become completely ineffective.

    You gotta agree that the 5th man is op. Giving the RE the ability to chase Axis mediums is unfair as they are cheap to start with and cheap to reinforce. Whereas axis AT inf is fragile and expensive. If the RE had only 4 men, USF can't use the RE as aggressive as they do now. Axis players are much more reserved with their AT squads. I never advocated for double flamers btw. I was just using it as an example of how I feel about 5 man RE with 2 zooks.

  • #67
    1 year ago
    5 th man for rear echelons at vet 3 is op? No its a unique vet bonus. The self heal for volks and obers is also.
  • #68
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,671
    edited March 2017

    If ones claims that bazooka need 12.7 to fire 2 volleys it simply wrong. Bazooka will fire 2 volleys faster regardless if the target is an infantry or tank.

    "He who admits his mistake, a very wise man will make"
    Bagheera

  • #69
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,469

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Similarly, a shcreck pgren is 340mp and 120 munis. The price is far worse for OKW. I'd need 3 volleys vs any medium with would take 8*3 = 24s.

    That's because they also perform better against better armored mediums/heavies. Bazookas specialize in killing standard mediums, above that shrecks perform better due to pen and damage differences. The reload speed helps most with softer armor.

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    Bazooka reloads 5.75 so it take them about that time to fire 2 volleys because the come loaded.

    Only if the tank is the first thing the REs see. You can't tell AT infantry to prioritize.

    Easy way to prevent them from firing is to keep them on the move. But anyways, its much faster to kill Axis mediums, period. I can see that zooks have a problem vs heavies but then the Axis TDs have problems vs Heavies due to poor pen so schrecks are there to assist. I think your idea could be a decent solution but the only problem is the RE has combat bonuses from vet unlike pios and CE

    Rear Echelon Troops

    vet 1:+20% accuracy

    vet 2:+50% repair speed , -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown

    vet 3: Increases the squad's size to 5

    I think the cooldown is especially problematic as well as the 5 man vet is op. Cooldown makes zooks fire even faster and 5 man is op since its more durable than axis AT inf as received accuracy from pgrens, sturms don't matter as much due to receiving AoE damage mainly. I think allowing double zooks, but no sweeper is ok, only if the cooldown, and extra man bonuses are removed. RE are NOT frontline troops so therefore giving them combat bonuses in addition to repair spd is op.

    Hold your chair, because you're about to have your mind blown to tinier pieces:

    Cooldown has ZERO impact on zooks, because zooks don't have cooldown.

  • #70
    1 year ago

    @Katitof said:

    Hold your chair, because you're about to have your mind blown to tinier pieces:

    Cooldown has ZERO impact on zooks, because zooks don't have cooldown.

    Show me the evidence. Where did u get that from?

  • #71
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,469

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @Katitof said:

    Hold your chair, because you're about to have your mind blown to tinier pieces:

    Cooldown has ZERO impact on zooks, because zooks don't have cooldown.

    Show me the evidence. Where did u get that from?

    I've got better idea.
    I'll explain to you what a cooldown is.

    And it is the time between each shot in a clip.
    If there is no clip, base cooldown value is zero and that's what you'll find in zooka files under cooldown.

  • #72
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 2,082
    edited March 2017

    @Vipper said:
    If ones claims that bazooka need 12.7 to fire 2 volleys it simply wrong. Bazooka will fire 2 volleys faster regardless if the target is an infantry or tank.

    And? What's the point of correcting people if you're not going to input on the actual balance discussion? Is double-equipping them on REs unfair to you? The same error was made by the person I was conversing with for shreck volley time, and it doesn't detract from the point: it will still take a long time for 2 zook RE squads to kill a p4 with no other assistance. A much longer time than it will for infantry to kill off REs.

    @Vipper said:
    "He who admits his mistake, a very wise man will make"
    Bagheera

    Seriously? We're discussing balance to a video game, climb down from the high horse.

  • #73
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,671
    edited March 2017

    Having cheap units with lots of utility like engineer units buying prime weapon allowing to fight more expensive infantry or vehicles on equal term is poor design imo.

    Some of the even perform better with them than the respected mainlines infantry.

    2 Re squad with 4 bazookas can force most axis tank of the battlefield or destroy them.

  • #74
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 2,082

    @Vipper said:
    Having cheap units buying prime weapon allowing to fight more expensive infantry or vehicles on equal term is poor design imo.

    What about it is equal term? You're trading infantry models for vehicle damage, just like any AT infantry. Difference is, 1 squad of double zook REs is at best helpful for defeating enemy armor when you already have something fighting it. You need at least 2 squads of them for the zooks to be threatening on their own. 400mp and 200muni is not cheap, and literally any infantry can screen them.

    They only become very good with Vet, and the 3x vet reduction rate for handheld AT will slow that down to its proper pace.

  • #75
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,671
    edited March 2017

    RE with duel bazookas are more cost efficient than PGs with shrecks. That is simply wrong.

    Generally speaking engineer type of units should not be able to replace mainline infantry in their role. People should use engineer type units for their utility not as substitutes to mainline infantry.

  • #76
    1 year ago

    @Vipper said:
    RE with duel bazookas are more cost efficient than PGs with shrecks. That is simply wrong.

    Generally speaking engineer type of units should not be able to replace mainline infantry in their role. People should use engineer type units for their utility not as substitutes to mainline infantry.

    i get what you mean but both okw and usf have combat engis in a way. sturm pios are like panzer grenadiers in combat and because of vet 5 they outscale them and sturms are cheaper, its not that okw needs sturm pios to be that good. rear echelons can get good with their acces to weapon racks.

    shoudnt there be a simalar treatment for sturms?

  • #77
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,966
    edited March 2017

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    sturm pios are like panzer grenadiers in combat and because of vet 5 they outscale them and sturms are cheaper, its not that okw needs sturm pios to be that good. rear echelons can get good with their acces to weapon racks.

    shoudnt there be a simalar treatment for sturms?

    Sturmpioneers are quite worse than PGs combatwise. Their overall DPS close to mid is pretty meh, they are only really good at almost point-blank ranges. And Sturms should not get similar treatment because they can only get 1 Schreck and only if the dont get a sweeper. You cant really substitue your AT with Sturms like you can with REs because a) its much more expensive in procurement, upkeep and bleed and b) Sturm are less flexible than REs when it comes to weapon upgrades.
    Any OK-W player who builds his army mostly out of Sturms is building an army doomed to fail.

  • #78
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 647
    edited March 2017

    @Hingie
    Yes you right the near range for pgrens is bigger at 5 and sturms have that at 3. so the pgrens damage reaches out farther, plus p grens have the bundle wunder grenade.

    i do agree that doulbe zook plus minesweeper should not be possible, however without double upgrades rear echelons dont have a loot off use. no mines flamers no sandbags usf crews can repair themselfs. and 1 zook is not something to bragg about in terms of preformance.

  • #79
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,966

    Then take the USF crews fast repair speed away. That way, if you want to have efficient repair speeds you need REs. You can still repair the vehicles with the crew, it would just take a lot longer.

  • #80
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,464
    I think the crew repair needs slightly toned down regardless of what happens to RE.... They should help repair, not one man army it imo. As a whole WFA repairs too god damned fast...
    Back in my day when you beat the ever loving fuck out of an enemy tank it hurt them, even if you didnt kill it because it was taken out of the fight for a good few minutes, atm even snaring a fucking wfa tank amounts to little....
  • #81
    1 year ago

    @Hingie
    usf is designed with flexibility, the crews are a part of that. That would be a serious nerf, no double zooks for res and crew repair is slower. it would bring lower field precense and less power to push off medium tanks.

    what would compensate for that? no more self heal on volks/obers and the updated self heal for ost should go as well?

    usf riflmen mortars stuarts are already getting nerfed and this would overdo it completely.

  • #82
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 2,082

    @Vipper said:
    RE with duel bazookas are more cost efficient than PGs with shrecks. That is simply wrong.

    Sure, if that's true. I don't agree that they are more cost efficient, so therefore I don't think anything's wrong. REs are cheaper and are only reliable against mediums. Shrecks are more expensive, but have better chances at hurting heavier armor.

  • #83
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,464
    @SkysTheLimit current meta seems very medium centric. Imo RE are too cheap a platform for such potential, i mean a p4 is 125 fuel and easily out matched by even a single double zook toting RE squad (to be fair tho that at least 50% on the p4 for being so damn unreliable vs infantry)

    I would love to see RE buffed to a more useable platform, something ostroppeny would even do imo, but their only job being to absolutely counter mediums is clearly a problem, and that goes both for game balance as well as highlighting poor unit design imo
  • #84
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 2,082
    edited March 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @SkysTheLimit current meta seems very medium centric. Imo RE are too cheap a platform for such potential, i mean a p4 is 125 fuel and easily out matched by even a single double zook toting RE squad (to be fair tho that at least 50% on the p4 for being so damn unreliable vs infantry)

    The unreliability of the p4 fighting back is the problem I can get behind. It should get a 34/76-esque treatment in terms of getting AI reliability through mgs. Every once in a while, it'll wipe a 4 or 5 man squad with good health. Most of the time, it over/undershoots.

    I've also thought for a while the p4 is overpriced for current performance. My aversion to hurting zook REs is that there's talk about nerfing every single damn source of US AT on this forum. The 57mm is just now officially performing as intended (the crew target size bug was making them die far too easily, losing the precious vet you need for it to be any good at all)

  • #85
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,671
    edited March 2017

    Bazookas counter all armor from medium to heavy due to deflection damage. A single shrecks does 30 deflection damage 2 bazookas do 40.

    I do not exclude Sturm pios from my point of view but SP are not a cheap unit. The cost 300 and have a POP of 9. Fielding a army a SP with weapon is not easy when one usually also need a sweeper.

  • #86
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited March 2017

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    5 th man for rear echelons at vet 3 is op? No its a unique vet bonus. The self heal for volks and obers is also.

    Rangers have it too.

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    @Hingie
    usf is designed with flexibility, the crews are a part of that. That would be a serious nerf, no double zooks for res and crew repair is slower. it would bring lower field precense and less power to push off medium tanks.

    what would compensate for that? no more self heal on volks/obers and the updated self heal for ost should go as well?

    usf riflmen mortars stuarts are already getting nerfed and this would overdo it completely.

    Here we go with the "flexibility" excuse again. People used to defend the OPness of a stuart by saying USF is supposed to be "flexible. " The word means nothing to them. Flexible means decent at everything, excellent at nothing. The fact that USF armor doesn't need REs to help repair mean that the crew repair too quickly (excellent). USF player have taken that for granted for too long and its time for them to grow up. We're not saying to remove crews and repair critical. Only a nerf to repair speed.

  • #87
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 647
    edited March 2017
    @1ncendiary_Rounds

    Grow up? Ok so self repair needs to be so that you just might as well go back to base. And sacrifice field presence.

    And since we are down the grow up lane. Dont you think okw needs the same?
    As they have microless heals with frp and microles self heal. Plus microles repairs in the field. giving them enourmus field presence. Also acces to non doc superheavy. Wich they have been taking for granted.
  • #88
    1 year ago

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    @1ncendiary_Rounds

    Grow up? Ok so self repair needs to be so that you just might as well go back to base.

    And since we are down the grow up lane. Dont you think okw needs the same?
    As they have microless heals with frp and microles self heal. Plus microles repairs in the field. giving them enourmus field presence and have been taking that for granted.

    Free heals is slightly op, but you get it after vet 3 and its faster to vet up crews to vet 3 than it is to vet volks to vet 3. Also, free heals doesn't prevent squads from losing men. Crew repair is far more advantageous as you don't need to occupy repair squads and have them capping instead. As well, damage on tanks is free and doesn't cost mp to reinforce. And the microless repairs force you to retreat your tank all the way back to base where many usf players don't retreat their armor all the way back since that is most likely where they have the mech HQ. As well, unlike crew repairs, mech HQ + repair pios cost is quite expensive as most players don't go for mech HQ until after the flak HQ. Therefore they get access to it in only the late game. Again this shows that usf perks are still better.

  • #89
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 647
    edited March 2017
    @1ncendiary_Rounds

    The repair station doesnt have to be in base. So the vehicle doesnt have to go to hq.

    You underestimate the benifit from self heal and fwrd retreat. Spamming 4 volks is a normal build getting them to vet 3 is not hard. Obers i see slightly more now. Sturms give at vet 0 acces to medkits.
    Self heal should be vet 5 nothing earlier.

    Okw has a lot more units that benefit from this in field at one time. So it should cost okw an arm and a leg to get it.

    The usf has at the most 3 vehicles in a match at the same time wich can benefit from crew repairs.
  • #90
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,671
    edited March 2017

    Other units with passive heal:
    Paratroopers Vet 2
    Ranger Vet 2
    Air landing officer vet 3
    Commandos vet 3
    Infiltration Commandos vet 3

    The reason why some OKW infantry get passive healing is to make possible builts without T1. Keep in mind that OKW have to invest the most to get healing. I would rather allow OKW to get base healing once they got some tech up.

    When it comes to heal on the field Tommies are the most broken one since that can stay on the field the longest with little micro.

    But all this are off Topic.

  • #91
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 647
    edited March 2017

    Other units with passive heal:
    Paratroopers Vet 2
    Ranger Vet 2
    Air landing officer vet 3
    Commandos vet 3
    Infiltration Commandos vet 3

    those are all doctrinal units. i dont own most of those commanders, so all i can say is all of those units are to my knowledge more expensive then volks and arrive later. and for some reason they dont get much screen time from what i see.

    The reason why some OKW infantry get passive healing is to make possible builts without T1. Keep in mind that OKW have to invest the most to get healing. I would rather allow OKW to get base healing once they got some tech up.

    sturms give them healing from the start of the game for a small muni fee. Okw is not as muni intensive as say ost or usf.

    When it comes to heal on the field Tommies are the most broken one since that can stay on the field the longest with little micro.

    But all this are off Topic.

    i know and agree that brit healing is the best in the game. it helps the brits in their early game but in late game its a moving hospital wich should be adressed along with the power curve.

    Back to topic:

    usf is getting nerfs already. Deneing res double upgrades and lowering crew repairs to give res a better role will cost the usf a lot field presence and a lot harder time to push armour away.

    now with the recc acc nerf for rifles and the double lmgs nerfed, the crew repair nerfs and mortar nerf. lets wait and see what happens, instead of picking the next thing to nerf allies with wile axis get buffs in this patch.

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