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  • #32
    3 years ago

    @Vipper said:
    It is easier to create balanced patch when Fixing less things than with Patch that try to Fix allot of thing at same time.

    I'm okay with that if the other ones will adressed in the next 2-3 patches and not forgotten until this game is dead one day. But I do think if one faction gets alot of nerfes in one patch they shoul buff some up units in the same go. Positive aspect: That way people have less reason to complain.
    And then there is diversity: Take for example Comet nerf. Atm you would go for Comet over Churchill everyday, no question. This patch doesn't change anything about it, yes we have a Comet that is brought inline with other faction tanks of the same cost, but it is still way better than Churchill. So without change of churchill we won't see more diverse late game tank play by brits. Thats just a missed opportunity.

  • #33
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    Its important my friends to note that THIS patch is supposed to be meta tweaks. Not full blown balance crack filling.
  • #35
    3 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,060
    edited April 2017

    So it's "nerf Maxim to encorage Penals and than nerf penals to encorage maxims and nerf maxims to encorage penals and nerf penals to encorage maxims" song again?

    So blitz with multiple benefits is balanced and warspeed with small bonus and one use is not? As usually.

  • #36
    3 years ago
    RilakumaRilakuma Posts: 11

    Relic : Everyone goes T1 => Penal spam is not allowed => Penal and Guard nerf

    Sov player : T1 is doomed .. Lets get T2 Start

    Relic : Oh so u guys switched to T2 now and its not balance => Lets reduce suppression of maxims let axis squads can walk under the fire . Conscript probably "long range unit" that not needed to get close after maxim pin enemy. Right ?

    Sov player : We still have penal + dshk after this patch. Prepared for nerf :smile:

    PS : nerfing brit tank to wm / okw level is stupid as long as brit infantry dont have no brain faust at their hand.

  • #37
    3 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343
    edited April 2017

    @Make_love_not_war said:
    But with this changes it makes absolutely no sense to raise Comet population to 20(!). One population below Kingtiger and Jagdtiger? I personally feel it should be 18 and so should Panther which is to cheap for 16 population too. So Panther and Comet to 18 would be quite fair.

    When assigning popcap values, we used OST P4 as a reference (12 popcap). Comet feels just fine at 20 popcap, to be honest. In addition to being a fast/armoured generalist tank, it also has access to white phosphorus (which is now, no longer bugged) that it can use to break pak walls.

    If 20 popcap seems extreme it's because King Tiger/Jagtiger popcap are unacceptably low (should be 26+ popcap, like before heavy-tank popcap changes). At least, however, for KT/JT you can only build 1 max. That makes their low popcap values a bit less unacceptable.

    About Crushing:
    There are 2 more units with very high turn rate M10 and valentine that should be looked at.

    We are absolutely not allowed to touch anything outside of the units we have already touched. This is meant to be a patch to be finalized as soon as possible (at least to see the tourney through).

  • #38
    3 years ago

    @Rilakuma said:
    PS : nerfing brit tank to wm / okw level is stupid as long as brit infantry dont have no brain faust at their hand.

    ...and no 40 range infantry AT weapon either. Just had to add that :)

    You are definetely right about one thing: Although brit tanks are very strong and comet can take a nerf, never compare troops directly to each other in a vacuum.

    [irony] So whats next after brit tanks nerfed? Give AT grenade to IS, bring homing PIAT back to 40 range and make emplacement moveable but decrewable and ohh yeah take away brace please. There you have it: Equal factions because of factional units beeing only slightly variations of each other. Yeah, finally balance, go for it boys! [/irony]

  • #39
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @Mr_Smith while using the p4 as a reference point is fine and dandy, some (myself included) would argue that the p4 isnt worth 12 pop. Imo access cost is far more imlortant than pop cost. This is something we found in heavies post limit, pop cap is a limiter amd imo it forces the idea of 1 tank armies. If i need 1/5 of your army ir better fucking preform like 1/5 of my army since im giving up that portion to field it. Pop cap IMO is an unnecessary change given the other nerfs.
  • #40
    3 years ago

    @Mr_Smith said:
    If 20 popcap seems extreme it's because King Tiger/Jagtiger popcap are unacceptably low (should be 26+ popcap, like before heavy-tank popcap changes). At least, however, for KT/JT you can only build 1 max. That makes their low popcap values a bit less unacceptable.

    Yeah, but it is akward to set Comet to 20 while Super Heavies have 21 and direct combat unit in form of Panther remains at 16. If you want to change population values you need a revamp that takes all the units into account, not just one or two. It is not such big problem in 1vs1 but it is in bigger game modes. Especially when for example a supported Jagdtiger can do multiple the harm of its 21 population. I myself brought one to Vet5 with 32 vehicle kills in a 4vs4 Lienne forest playing at top. Easy map for doing this, although I lost the first one at Vet2. Instantly respawned it and got the second one to max Vet. It alone (beeing protected) anhilated the tank advantage that our opponents gainend until it showed up.

    @Mr_Smith said:

    There are 2 more units with very high turn rate M10 and valentine that should be looked at.

    I don't see this as a problem at Valentine. Taking into account that brit commander with Valentine is more useful in bigger game modes, because other brit commanders are far more useful and versatile in 1vs1, Valentine is in an akward spot already. Arriving at 7CPs means you have all the hard counters for it on the battlefield before it arrives and it has absolutely no shock value anymore. This reduces it main performance to a spoting vehicle with more health and wider arc as non-doctrinal OKW counterpart, but way later and with 80 fuel cost compared to zero.

  • #41
    3 years ago

    Sorry, OKW infrared actually costs 5 fuel ;)

  • #42
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited April 2017

    @Pastulio said:

    So blitz with multiple benefits is balanced and warspeed with small bonus and one use is not? As usually.

    Blitzkrieg and warspeed are identical - if one gives multiple benefits then so does the other - if one gives a small bonus so does the other. They're literally the exact same thing.

    Except warspeed is completely free and available at vet 0.

  • #43
    3 years ago

    Okay these Balance changes are good i 1v1 and 2v2, there this will be make the game much more interesting. But in 3v3 and 4v4.... what can a Team do against Panther/heavy Tank spam do? The Brits was the only faction with that you could hold against it.
    Some people here still cry about the M10 tank.... well take a look at this tank:
    1. Its a soft counter again Panzer IV, Puma, luchs, Sdkfz. 222 etc.
    2. If you spam this tank you can take down a Panther and MAYBE a Tiger when your opponement is too stupid, so thats no general Problem, because you can counter this with combient Arms but most German player just want to spam German Tanks and win this.

    Why buff the british émergecy ability instead of make a cost about 30 mun for it like the German Blitzkrieeeg! Ability...

    However, a Question for you Relic, do you don´t like the soviet heavy tanks ( ISU-152,KV-2)??
    The ISU-152 cost 720 manpower and 260 Fuel, thats nearly the same as a King tiger, but the ISU can´t even penetrate a Panther from far distance...And it´s very slow...

    Why do you not change some german OPness like:

    • Stuka 50kg bomb against Arty-> I play soviet and build up 1 Arty...frw secons later after barrage there comes a scout plane and BOOM it´s gone. It´s so easy to counter....as soviet you have always 'Die Arschkarte'
      Supply doctrine you pay 200 manpower for 50 Fuel and 150 ammo....LOL* -> Soviet supply cost 100 ammo and brings you 30 Fuel, WHEN the Plane reached it´s destination , but this is impossible when you play agains OKW.....
  • #44
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    If the patch become more often I really like this approach of changes that are smaller and affect less units. This approach help actually evaluate if the path fulfilled its goal or not.

  • #45
    3 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @Mr_Smith while using the p4 as a reference point is fine and dandy, some (myself included) would argue that the p4 isnt worth 12 pop. Imo access cost is far more imlortant than pop cost. This is something we found in heavies post limit, pop cap is a limiter amd imo it forces the idea of 1 tank armies. If i need 1/5 of your army ir better fucking preform like 1/5 of my army since im giving up that portion to field it. Pop cap IMO is an unnecessary change given the other nerfs.

    If the Comet didn't have access to white phosphorus, then yes, I think it could be worth 18-19 popcap without it. However, without white phosphorus, teching up would become a truly unattractive prospect. 20 popcap really is the sweet spot:

    • Comet remains a cost-efficient tank
    • You can't spam more than 2 Comets, really (thus, your army composition remains counterable)
    • Since WP is a cheap/low-cooldown ability you don't really need more than 1-2 comets to benefit from it

    As for teamgame performance, you can always rely on Fireflies vs heavies and stuff. Comet's job is bullying lower tier tanks to force the enemy to tech up.

    As for popcap performance. Personally, I think that popcap is the limiting factor as to how badly things can scale out proportion when you take them from an 1v1 balanced state and supplant them to 4v4's, where access to resources is more reliable.

    Having access to ridiculously under-pop heavies/etc drives forth the incentive to "camp" until you reach a critical mass of armour (e.g., by spamming Panthers), and then A-move to the enemy. Rationalising the popcap of all tanks will incentivise both the winning team and the losing team to use their arsenal, rather than stall-and-spam.

    With respect to changing popcap values unilaterally, you are almost correct. On the other hand, most non-limited core tanks do have a rational popcap for their performance (the glaring exceptions here are Stug and OKW Panther).

  • #46
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Imo WP should be move to Churchill.

  • #47
    3 years ago
    capiquacapiqua Posts: 270
    edited April 2017

    Smoke and Blitz should rise 20pop to panther (IMO)

  • #48
    3 years ago
    thekingsownthekingso… Posts: 447
    edited April 2017

    @Mr_Smith said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @Mr_Smith while using the p4 as a reference point is fine and dandy, some (myself included) would argue that the p4 isnt worth 12 pop. Imo access cost is far more imlortant than pop cost. This is something we found in heavies post limit, pop cap is a limiter amd imo it forces the idea of 1 tank armies. If i need 1/5 of your army ir better fucking preform like 1/5 of my army since im giving up that portion to field it. Pop cap IMO is an unnecessary change given the other nerfs.

    If the Comet didn't have access to white phosphorus, then yes, I think it could be worth 18-19 popcap without it. However, without white phosphorus, teching up would become a truly unattractive prospect. 20 popcap really is the sweet spot:

    • Comet remains a cost-efficient tank
    • You can't spam more than 2 Comets, really (thus, your army composition remains counterable)
    • Since WP is a cheap/low-cooldown ability you don't really need more than 1-2 comets to benefit from it

    As for teamgame performance, you can always rely on Fireflies vs heavies and stuff. Comet's job is bullying lower tier tanks to force the enemy to tech up.

    As for popcap performance. Personally, I think that popcap is the limiting factor as to how badly things can scale out proportion when you take them from an 1v1 balanced state and supplant them to 4v4's, where access to resources is more reliable.

    Having access to ridiculously under-pop heavies/etc drives forth the incentive to "camp" until you reach a critical mass of armour (e.g., by spamming Panthers), and then A-move to the enemy. Rationalising the popcap of all tanks will incentivise both the winning team and the losing team to use their arsenal, rather than stall-and-spam.

    With respect to changing popcap values unilaterally, you are almost correct. On the other hand, most non-limited core tanks do have a rational popcap for their performance (the glaring exceptions here are Stug and OKW Panther).

    I couldn't agree more.

    This update is a step in the right direction.

  • #49
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    When it comes to POP one has to Keep in mind that specialized units like the Panther should have lower POP than general purpose units like the Comet (for similar cost that is).

    In addition Panther has doctrinal smoke while Comet has smoke available to it from start.

  • #50
    3 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,060
    edited April 2017

    So goal is to stop Comet spam, but leave Panther spam most dominant thing?
    I have no words. "Double standarts" since release.

    Don't forget to make Axis vs Axis automatch. Because it will be difficult to find a game.

  • #51
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @pastulio there is a glaring difference between the panther and comet, being the ability to reliably kill infantry with its cannon. And of course the power of AT vehicles (super heavies excluded) available to each side. Panther spam is problematic in team games but can be countered by leaning heavier on infantry, nothing (and i mean nothing) will save you from critical mass comet spam...


    @mr_smith i understand. Is it possible to eek into scope the pop cost of the 17lb to compensate a bit? One of the reasons i so oppose pop increases is because this perfectly acceptable unit is devistated by its pop cap to the point of me not actually remembering the last time i saw it, if the powerful, multirole comet is to be 20 pop i think we can agree that that is too high for a static AT only unit, even one as durable as an emplacment.
    I understand the goal of this patch and think that introducing an alternative to the dominant meta is as important as disuading it.
  • #52
    3 years ago

    @Mr_Smith said:
    20 popcap really is the sweet spot

    As long as these stay its definitely no sweet spot:
    Panther/Pershing for 16,
    Elephant, Tiger, IS-2 for 19,
    Kingtiger and Jagdtiger for 21.
    ...and Comets AI capabilities/speed/crushing will be nerfed, this should taken into account. Don't change one, do all at once, its really no work to change pop values.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Panther spam is problematic in team games but can be countered by leaning heavier on infantry, nothing (and i mean nothing) will save you from critical mass comet spam...

    Combined arms. You can defeat them with a combination of Faust/Shrek and Tanks. I personally think in 3vs3/4vs4 the Panther/Brummbar combination with Commando Panther is a lot more devasting. Especially if backed up by a super heavy TD.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @mr_smith i understand. Is it possible to eek into scope the pop cost of the 17lb to compensate a bit?

    Yeah its population kills it. Especially because Jagdtiger can kill it without 17lb shooting back for just 1 pop more.

    @Vipper said:
    When it comes to POP one has to Keep in mind that specialized units like the Panther should have lower POP than general purpose units like the Comet (for similar cost that is).

    You mean like Brummbar/Bulldozer comparison? Each of them for 14 population (!). :P

  • #53
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @Make_love_not_war sure the JT can kill it with only 1 more pop, but like... It costs ~4x as much fuel so thats not unreasonable...
  • #54
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681
    edited April 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @Make_love_not_war sure the JT can kill it with only 1 more pop, but like... It costs ~4x as much fuel so thats not unreasonable...

    245 confirmed to be 185x4.

    Or you actually thought JT cost was 700+ fuel?

  • #55
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824

    @Katitof said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @Make_love_not_war sure the JT can kill it with only 1 more pop, but like... It costs ~4x as much fuel so thats not unreasonable...

    245 confirmed to be 185x4.

    Or you actually thought JT cost was 700+ fuel?

    isnt the 17lb 70 fuel? (70*4=280 which IS off 245 (granted i thought the JT was 260) but thats why i said "~") i mean i could totally be wrong as the massive pop cap certainly makes it appealing to me and its been ages since i made one but 185 fuel is a hell of alot more than i remember it being

  • #56
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Brumbar and bulldozer both serve the same specialized role but are above a medium tanks (640 HP) their pop is fine.

  • #57
    3 years ago

    Would be cool if some obscure abilities noone uses would get a bit of love too.The WBP made the medkits for both axis better,how about a hange for volley fire?The high received accuracy penalty makes this ability useless,it should either have no penalty or better surpression.

  • #58
    3 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,060
    edited April 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @pastulio there is a glaring difference between the panther and comet, being the ability to reliably kill infantry with its cannon. And of course the power of AT vehicles (super heavies excluded) available to each side. Panther spam is problematic in team games but can be countered by leaning heavier on infantry, nothing (and i mean nothing) will save you from critical mass comet spam...

    So to counter Panther spam Allies nedd "L2P" and "combined arms". But Axis with more damage, armor and penetration on everything need total nerf of opponent?
    I keep missing ALL logical points.

  • #59
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @thedarkarmadillo said:

    @Katitof said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @Make_love_not_war sure the JT can kill it with only 1 more pop, but like... It costs ~4x as much fuel so thats not unreasonable...

    245 confirmed to be 185x4.

    Or you actually thought JT cost was 700+ fuel?

    isnt the 17lb 70 fuel? (70*4=280 which IS off 245 (granted i thought the JT was 260) but thats why i said "~") i mean i could totally be wrong as the massive pop cap certainly makes it appealing to me and its been ages since i made one but 185 fuel is a hell of alot more than i remember it being

    I'm confused now... wasn't this about Comet? How and when the hell did 17 pounder get into that?
    17 pounder is indeed 70 fuel and is indeed rekt by JT, the very thing its supposed to counter in the first place due to range difference.

  • #60
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @katitof oh ok i see where we fucked up, i had saud im not a fan of high pop cap because it makes good units awful, and asked for a reduction in the 17lb pop because of just that reason, the price difference between the 17lb and the JT imo makes it fine for the jt to beat the 17 however 17 should prob get that extra range (even as a garrison bonus)
  • #61
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @Pastulio ita a matter of threat and response. The panther is a threat only to armour, the comet is a threat to both armour and infantry. This means while an AT gun can support fire against a panther with impunity the same can not be said about a comet. Similarly all of osts options (non elefant) to fight a comet require them to be in range of return fire, this is not the case again for facing the panther as all allied factions have a TD that can out range it and do so with a great chance to pen AND 2/3 also deal above average damage and have ways to improve their damage potential against the panther via HVAP or tulips. Su85 manages on incredible accuracy and pen alone. Quite simply there are more options to handle the panther whom is already less of an all round threat.

    Thats not to say that panther spam isnt god damned annoying in team games, but it usually comes from already being on the back foot and results in pressing an advantage whereas holding out for amd getting a comet is usually a solid plan because anything that it lays sights on will fall.
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