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  • #62
    3 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    @Hesky85 said:
    Are these changes only for the tournament and not for the live version?

    It is 1st of April and i cant believe this changes... ;)
    But overall i'm very happy to see this really necessary changes!!!
    It's what im saying over years!

    Edit: But i think the high armor of the comet is another one of the big problems. My Panzer 4 had in in the last match a 1vs1 against the comet. 3/5 shots bounces of the comet frontal armor while every shot from the comet penetrates my P4! The comet killed my P4 and had 3/4 of its HP left.... that was very anoying.

    The Comet is a T4 tank on par with a Panther, of course its going to do well against a Panzer 4.

  • #63
    3 years ago
    JoppyJoppy Posts: 6
    edited April 2017

    A possible solution to the Mark Target ability on the Command Pather overperforming would be to change it in another way then you currently do. In the preview you reduce the damage boost but add greater penetration and accuracy - but this is far from a straight nerf and in some situation this is a better than the current version. Instead I believe it would be better to reduce the damage bonus to 35-45%, but make it so that the Command Panther only gain 10-20% extra damage from it.

    I think that all the infantry held AT gun should have a prioritise-vehicles ability. It would be nice that if you attack a vehicles with infantry holding AI weapon they will continue to fire them at any infantry (or light vehicle vulnerable against small arms fire) within range. The reverse true while firing at infantry with a squad that carry AT weapon as long as you don’t issue a direct attack command, since AT weapon can still deal critical damage against infantry.

  • #64
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited April 2017

    "OKW
    Command Panther
    Reduce Mark Target damage from +50% to +25%
    Mark Target now also increases penetration and accuracy to 25%"

    It might be worth trying something else.

    Damage bonus could stay the same for all units accept the C.P. that would receive no bonuses, that would force OKW to use other units to support C.P. and the command panther would also vet slower solidifying the unit as a support unit and not a 1 tank army.

  • #65
    3 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited April 2017

    @Kyle_RE said:
    Hold Fire for Tanks/AT Guns

    We find that the lack of a proper hold fire ability makes players resort to half-measures to control when their AT-guns or tanks can fire (e.g., by turning on prioritize vehicles to get a better position vs infantry). The following units now have Hold Fire:

    • All anti-tank guns
    • All tanks that already have a prioritise-vehicles ability
    • FlakHT
    • Panzer4 Command tank
    • Ostwind
    • Centaur
    • KV-2
    • M15 (MGs will continue to track/fire on targets)

    o:)o:)o:)o:)o:)

  • #66
    3 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,060

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @Pastulio ita a matter of threat and response. The panther is a threat only to armour, the comet is a threat to both armour and infantry. This means while an AT gun can support fire against a panther with impunity the same can not be said about a comet. Similarly all of osts options (non elefant) to fight a comet require them to be in range of return fire, this is not the case again for facing the panther as all allied factions have a TD that can out range it and do so with a great chance to pen AND 2/3 also deal above average damage and have ways to improve their damage potential against the panther via HVAP or tulips. Su85 manages on incredible accuracy and pen alone. Quite simply there are more options to handle the panther whom is already less of an all round threat.

    Thats not to say that panther spam isnt god damned annoying in team games, but it usually comes from already being on the back foot and results in pressing an advantage whereas holding out for amd getting a comet is usually a solid plan because anything that it lays sights on will fall.

    So 3 LMGS on Panther has no infantry damage and it's not a threadt to AT-guns?

  • #67
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @pastulio compared to AOE shells no, the difference is paramount.
  • #68
    3 years ago

    @Pastulio said:
    So goal is to stop Comet spam, but leave Panther spam most dominant thing?
    I have no words. "Double standarts" since release.

    Don't forget to make Axis vs Axis automatch. Because it will be difficult to find a game.

    Erm no.. The Comet is great at EVERYTHING, the Panther is good at 1 thing

  • #69
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Mr_Smith I accept that the Comets popcap change is part of a planned larger scheme, but I am a little worried that until that scheme comes to fruition the Comet might not carry its weight with the current stats and popcap. Is there a chance that we save the pop-cap change for one dedicated update?

  • #70
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681
    edited April 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @pastulio compared to AOE shells no, the difference is paramount.

    There actually was a clip somewhere with comet main gun vs panther MGs as a comparison for AI power, both were shooting 6 man squads at various distances and panther was falling behind only a couple of seconds(like ~10-15).

    With the scatter and moving accuracy they should be more on pair, but only tests can show that.

    Comet is definitely superior considering these "money shot" lucky hits though, as it should, being generalist tank.

    And as previously said, I too am concerned with the pop cap change on top of all the other nerfs, with how everything UKF is so pop cap heavy.

  • #71
    3 years ago
    capiquacapiqua Posts: 270
    edited April 2017

    Panthers OKW/WEHR range 50
    All ATguns (except raket) range 60

    Wherewith the hights nerf Comet are range 45 and 20 pop

  • #72
    3 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343

    @Lazarus said:
    @Mr_Smith I accept that the Comets popcap change is part of a planned larger scheme, but I am a little worried that until that scheme comes to fruition the Comet might not carry its weight with the current stats and popcap. Is there a chance that we save the pop-cap change for one dedicated update?

    First of all, as a general comment. I don't think it is feasible to wait for one massive update for this, otherwise we risk waiting forever. I think it's better to tackle the most important problems first. Then, as we tackle the big problems, smaller problems will arise, which we will continue to tackle. Once the remaining major issues remain few enough, then yes, we can count on them fitting in the context of one update.

    Hopefully, in-between, we will also be allowed to buff certain completely hopeless units to enrich the meta. That way, not every single patch will have to feel like a "nerf-fest".

    Secondly, I would argue that Comet nerfs aren't really as terrible and severe as they sound on paper.

    White phosphorus and grenade bugfixes mean that you no longer have to worry about whether those abilities will trigger anymore. You click them, and they will land 100% of the time. Just try to picture how many times you've lost units because you were trying to force your Comet/Cromwell to fire either ability. It's going to be that much better.

    Range decrease is also not as dramatic as it sounds. Comet spam usually roam around more Comets. Thus, most likely, people weren't able to use Comet's max range to their maximum advantage.

    Comet's tank commander upgrade still increase sight to 45, which is equal the new gun range.

    The advantages of culling Comet spam through popcap are the following:

    • Brits will have to use the entire array of units to counter opposing threats. If there are roles that the Brit faction performs inadequately, we will be better be able to identify which elements are lacking at performing the roles. The end result should be a faction that accommodates diverse playstyles
    • With the right Churchill buffs, there will no longer be a clear winner between Anvil/Hammer. Let's face it; Hammer currently wins because it's easier to rely on one type of unit (there's no choice to make about what to replace). With high-popcap Comets, every choice is meaningful.
    • Allied factions' lategame advantages will no longer be compensated by a couple of OP Brit units. Again, this will allow us to "fix" the affected weak factions, without risking throwing teamgames under the bus.
    • Eventually, as we "peel the onion" of cheese, the remaining teamgame-affecting cheese.

    Fixing Comets "the proper way" will also allow us to have a benchmark about what kind of level of performance we should be aiming for other factions. Lategame doesn't have to be a Brits-vs-OKW thing only.

  • #73
    3 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,060

    "Lategame doesn't have to be a Brits-vs-OKW thing only."

    So you just removing Brits.

  • #74
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @Mr_Smith said:

    • With the right Churchill buffs, there will no longer be a clear winner between Anvil/Hammer. Let's face it; Hammer currently wins because it's easier to rely on one type of unit (there's no choice to make about what to replace). With high-popcap Comets, every choice is meaningful.

    Waiting for that impatiently.
    I was so happy to see the churchill MKVII appear only to be let down by nerfing it out of the game completely to the point where re-buffs and price drop didn't helped it at all.

    I'm very curious what you'd like to do with a tank that is supposed to take a lot of punishment while not being able to stand up to anything above medium tanks.

    • Allied factions' lategame advantages will no longer be compensated by a couple of OP Brit units. Again, this will allow us to "fix" the affected weak factions, without risking throwing teamgames under the bus.

    With recent buffs to US and Sov late game tank destroying potential the brit late game isn't as needed as it used to be, indeed.

  • #75
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited April 2017

    Are you looking for some changes for infantry's AT-abilities? Some range limitations and collision with map object would be fine (the Faust etc. shouldn't follow objects over 5-10 range and corners should be a
    impediment for projectiles). Change the effect for engine damage, maybe more damage and a freeze effect and engine damage when 70% health left. Deflective damage should be removed until target's health is under 70% to prevent tanks with high frontal armor (like Panther, Tiger, King, Comet, Easy8, Pershing) for immobility from this abilities.

  • #76
    3 years ago
    RilakumaRilakuma Posts: 11

    Panthers OKW/WEHR range 50
    All ATguns (except raket) range 60

    Wherewith the hights nerf Comet are range 45 and 20 pop
    Lets say comet with backup using atg fighting panther and if comet hit mine / get fired no brain faust . Panther can just kite comet to death cause only 1 atg can fire back and its obviously not enough.
    So new patch brit vs axis make late game armor like aec vs puma . Chase u the whole map and kill u :p

  • #77
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    So dont hit a mine or drive in to faust range?
  • #78
    3 years ago
    RilakumaRilakuma Posts: 11

    so fight frontal and not flanking?

  • #79
    3 years ago
    BlackoutBlackout Posts: 4

    The Winter Patch brought in fantastic gameplay changes and this patch seems benefit the game as well. It seems to be a lot of focus on vehicle behavior in this patch and the Winter Patch, but the USF seem neglected in terms of positive changes or buffs. Bear with me, but this would be a perfect time to fix two USF vehicle-related problems for quality-of-life and cost purposes. Consider these following changes (sorry for the lengthy write-up):

    P-47 Rocket Strike (Airborne Company)

    • Cost: This meaty ability of the Airborne Commander really used to wreck OKW and was rightfully nerfed. However, it needs to be brought in-line with similar airstrike abilities. Consider the UKF Vanguard Operations commander with the Strafing Support ability. For UKF, 200 munitions allows them to target vehicles AND infantry while the USF pay 240 munitions (40 munitions more!) for ONLY vehicle targeting.
    • Performance: While UKF planes also get shot down, USF P-47 planes don't respawn/replace at nearly the same quick rate. It doesn't make sense for an ability to cost more and perform worse.
    • TL;DR: Please consider either a fix for the P-47 plane respawn time or implement a cost reduction to this ability.
      (240 -> 200 munitions or less)

    WC51 Military Truck (Mechanised Company)

    • Performance: This risky vehicle allows the USF to gain some early-game harassment and (more importantly) gives the USF a mirror counter to OKW kubel spam, but this vehicle hasn't been updated to match the new Winter Patch abilities of German units. The "jeep" used to survive till at least midgame because Volks needed 90+ munitions for anti-tank weapons. Now, all mainline german units both have early panzerfausts now, meaning the risk has EXPONENTIALLY increased for this vehicle. The OKW raketenwerfer's performance increased as well over the latest patches! The pathing is really wonky for this jeep,its speed is low, and it lacks any overall survivability abilities considering the new dangers of the latest patches.
    • Cost: Again, the purpose here isn't to necessarily buff USF units and abilities, but to bring them in-line with existing options of other factions. The T1 Soviet scout car is extremely similar to the USF jeep, but has better pathing and costs much less! The M3A1 Scout Car costs [190 manpower+15 fuel], the USF WC51 Military Truck costs [240 manpower+20 fuel]. That's a 50 manpower and 5 fuel increase in cost for the USF, except the soviet scout car is able to carry 2 units and survive 2 hits from fausts. The Military Truck/Jeep can barely survive one hit at the same cost of the m20 utility car (which performs much much better.
    • TL;DR: Please consider either tuning the jeep's speed performance and abilities for survivability, or lower the cost to match the equivalent Soviet scout car or the UKF universal carrier.
      ([240 manpower+20 fuel] -> 340 manpower OR [190 manpower +15 fuel])
  • #80
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Rilakuma said:
    so fight frontal and not flanking?

    No. Flank. Just bring a mine sweeper and don't hug your local neighbourhood grenadiers. Believe it or not you have an army to support your tanks with.

  • #81
    3 years ago
    RilakumaRilakuma Posts: 11

    @Lazarus said:

    @Rilakuma said:
    so fight frontal and not flanking?

    No. Flank. Just bring a mine sweeper and don't hug your local neighbourhood grenadiers. Believe it or not you have an army to support your tanks with.

    lol u must be brit legend indeed. lets say u are going to charge inside enemy jp4 position with comet . with that 60 : 45 range can u show me how u not to get close and successfully flanking it without getting no brain faust . and sweeper are obvious theory crafting cause okw are floating 300 + ammo for mine spams late game and its soft counter will not work everytime.

  • #82
    3 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited April 2017

    One thing that bugs me is the Hold Fire for Tanks/AT Guns, although this is a good idea I think it makes the UI a bit confusing and "overwhelming" especially to newer players. Why dont AT guns and TD's prioritize vehicles by default and instead of "prioritize vehicles" ability give it the "Hold fire" ability? To tanks with turrets I dont see how the "hold fire" ability would be useful but it certainly is useful to TD's such as the su-85, the jagdpanzer, the stug and so on, so you can prevent the tank from rotating by itself and exposing the rear armor or getting in a bad position.

  • #83
    3 years ago
    javabaljavabal Posts: 88

    Relic I think you are forgetting something important, and are all the people who are complaining about the blob of the Volksgrenadiers and the lack of utility of the Conscript in mid and late game.

  • #84
    3 years ago
    javabaljavabal Posts: 88

    I also think that some interesting utility is missing for the USF in the game endings, I mean not having to do jackson spam to be able to destroy the super axes tanks. It would not be crazy to be able to take the Sherman easy 8 to T3 and replace it in Rifle Company by pershing. In this way the USF would have more chance of options at the end of the game.

  • #85
    3 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343

    @AceOfTitanium said:
    One thing that bugs me is the Hold Fire for Tanks/AT Guns, although this is a good idea I think it makes the UI a bit confusing and "overwhelming" especially to newer players. Why dont AT guns and TD's prioritize vehicles by default and instead of "prioritize vehicles" ability give it the "Hold fire" ability?

    That's because forcing prioritise vehicles on AT guns/tanks would make it more difficult for them to wreck emplacements/trucks.

    To tanks with turrets I dont see how the "hold fire" ability would be useful but it certainly is useful to TD's such as the su-85, the jagdpanzer, the stug and so on, so you can prevent the tank from rotating by itself and exposing the rear armor or getting in a bad position.

    Hold fire is useful even for turreted tanks:

    • You can use hold-fire micro to better time your shots, and thus avoid moving penalties
    • For chasing a particular wounded tank in a target-rich environment. You don't want the turret to acquire other targets as you go for the dive
  • #86
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Rilakuma I'm just gonna chime in with something along the lines of - stop engaging dedicated At units eg. Panther or JP4 with a tank. It might be finally dawning on people who main Brits that the Comet is no longer going to be your counter to everything, employing a mixed force composition will now be mandatory.

    The days of Comets roaming in wolfpacks unchallenged are coming to an end. You have a wide roster of high quality at as the Brits to deal with these feared panthers or JP4's, from the reworked Piat, the Firefly that is begging for a solid nerf, your pak clone in the 6 pounder and finally the admittedly awful in 90% situations 17pounder, something that I'm sure will be fixed in the future.

  • #87
    3 years ago

    @Mr_Smith said:
    That's because forcing prioritise vehicles on AT guns/tanks would make it more difficult for them to wreck emplacements/trucks.

    Isnt it possible to set a "chain of priorities"? Such as: infantry (including support weapons) < emplacements (including setted up trucks and base buildings) < vehicles.

    Hold fire is useful even for turreted tanks:

    • You can use hold-fire micro to better time your shots, and thus avoid moving penalties

    I'm not sure if I understand this, is this going to be a way to avoid moving penalties? if you hold fire while not moving and then use that shot on the move you have the standing still values? If so, isnt this a bit of "cheating" the system?

    • For chasing a particular wounded tank in a target-rich environment. You don't want the turret to acquire other targets as you go for the dive

    Well this is a very particular situation and would only happen if the enemy has one tank which is where the "prioritize vehicles" ability shines (ignore all infantry and support weapons to kill that precious vehicle), I dont really see someone diving to kill one tank that is supported by other tanks.

  • #88
    3 years ago
    RilakumaRilakuma Posts: 11
    edited April 2017

    @Farra13 said:
    @Rilakuma I'm just gonna chime in with something along the lines of - stop engaging dedicated At units eg. Panther or JP4 with a tank. It might be finally dawning on people who main Brits that the Comet is no longer going to be your counter to everything, employing a mixed force composition will now be mandatory.

    The days of Comets roaming in wolfpacks unchallenged are coming to an end. You have a wide roster of high quality at as the Brits to deal with these feared panthers or JP4's, from the reworked Piat, the Firefly that is begging for a solid nerf, your pak clone in the 6 pounder and finally the admittedly awful in 90% situations 17pounder, something that I'm sure will be fixed in the future.

    [removed]

    So ur logic is not flank a tank destroyer without turret. And fix? they better start fix from the start of infantry section flare with horrible flare that almost only nub using it.

  • #89
    3 years ago

    @Vipper said:
    When it comes to POP one has to Keep in mind that specialized units like the Panther should have lower POP than general purpose units like the Comet (for similar cost that is).

    and...

    @Vipper said:
    Brumbar and bulldozer both serve the same specialized role but are above a medium tanks (640 HP) their pop is fine.

    Just want to add that that Bulldozer has 35 penetration and Brummbar has 120 which is enough to hurt most allied medium tanks. In addition Brummbar has defletion x0,5 which is still 80 damage versus any allied tank, while Bulldozer has x0,0 which is zero damage versus any axis tank.

    Please admit that you are contradicting yourself, when you say that Bulldozer/Brummbar same pop is fine, while Panther/Comet is not. Please say it... :P

  • #90
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @Make_love_not_war but the dozer has no tech costs, a turret, smoke launcher and can make barricades. While i do think the dozer should get a pen increase, it using the brum as a reason for it isnt admissible imo simply because of how different the units are from eachother
  • #91
    3 years ago

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @Make_love_not_war but the dozer has no tech costs, a turret, smoke launcher and can make barricades. While i do think the dozer should get a pen increase, it using the brum as a reason for it isnt admissible imo simply because of how different the units are from eachother

    No, no this is not about cost of tech or regular unit. If you want to discuss about AI performance Brumbar is still much better because of half the scatter value (way more accurate), way more frontal armor and a nice long range pak sniper shot ability. But it is still not about this. It is only about beeing multipurpose or not. While Bulldozer isn't better at AI (it is worse to be honest) it has absolutely no AT while Brumbar has guaranted 80 damage on a hit versus any tank and up to 160 damged versus lower armored tanks. Its only about Vippers argumet that multipurpose tanks of similar performance and cost should cost more population. He is absolutely right about that regarding Panther/Comet. But then be fair do it the same for Brummbar/Bulldozer.

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