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  • #152
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @SquishyMuffin Volks trade incredibly with most sov units, since there is little in muni sinks for OKW they can throw out incendiary nades like they are going out of fashion, Penals struggle, cons cannot at all handle them and guards with dps can only handle them at long range. Since we consider Sov infnatry are close to being balanced agaisnt Ostheer ( the gold standard) and yet OKW can stomp them rather easily with their mainline, kinda points to nerfs being needed as the WFA factions are still Op by comparison.

    Volks recieve some of the highest accuracy bonuses in the game at 45%, only penals at 60% edge them out but lack any weapon upgrades. Its either trim that or prevent them from using incendiarys on anything other than buildings, as that grenade alongside their stgs allows them to handle nearly anything short of point blank rangers and then focus fire blobs.

    I'm ignoring USF and UKF as they aren't considered balanced yet, but Penals are in what should be their final version and have been balanced against OST, if volks will happily trade or even outrade them, something needs to be done.

  • #153
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited April 2017

    Volks is what keep OKW alive. If one simply nerf volks OKW will lose badly. All infantry before minute one need to be re-balanced against one another and the probably means nerfing the DPS of penals as well.

    The ST44 upgrade is badly designed currently, but their other offenders on the other side of the fence also.

  • #154
    3 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 696
    edited April 2017

    Then the price of penals and volks need be closer together before that can happen. As they are now they can compete with penals quite often, later in the game they can outpreform them. This for only 250mp and 25mp reinforce cost. Cons at 240 mp stand little to no chance from start to finish against volks.

    Imho Volks easely belong in the 280 price range, taking into account their total package including vanilla stats vet scaling durability and staying power. Volks are so efficient Obers are left in the dust (imo obers are also a bit underwelming for their timing atm) sturms are also left behind a bit because of how efficient volks are imo.

    that and/or the stg 44 should be a made a choice and not a no brainer. stay long range or sacrifice long range power for close to mid range power. the inc grenade make it so that it can only target buildings has my vote. Passive self heal imo belongs on elite inf not on main line inf. Okw has good healing options along side a forward retreat point.

  • #155
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited April 2017

    As I have explain Penal (300 160/10) are in the same league with P.F. and that is 290/90mu CP2 unit. Volks with ST44 are 250/60mu unit and need at least 300/40 tech cost.

    Its quite simple all units available before minute 1 need to be re-balanced. That included redesign the Volks weapon upgrade and Penal initial punch.

    I actually had pointed out the problems for both units even before the patch was released. (and about the USF mortar.)

    With the current DPS values the winner is usually determined pure brute force and RNG.

  • #157
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited April 2017

    P. F. need 90 mu upgrade and are CP 2 and Penals also have snare, an AT weapon upgrade and a satchel that can be used to blow up thing, so they are also flexible.

    I simply find odd that people claim that PF are OP and Penal UP.

    As I said imo all infantry units before minute 1 need to be re-balanced.

  • #158
    3 years ago

    Bring back pre-patch Maxim and make Con's PPsh-upgrade non-doc. I think that would help much more.

    People will hate me... but I think it would be best too nerf Panzerfüsiliere and put them into T0 instead of Volks. So Volks become a Doc-unit instead (Volkssturm with Faust). => OKW gets a more decent AT-ability in early game (at-rifle-grenade) and a more clear inf situation. Sturmpio = close / Panzerfüsiliere = middle / Ober = far.

  • #159
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @vipper, its in the support. Same reason the usf mortar was ok with grens infront of it amd not ok with rifles.
    Okw have FANTASTIC support, soviet... Less so, the current maxim is nasty for sure but its still cons, no frp, and no out of base healing (that costs more a cons squad to begin with) for penals vs.... All of that for pfussies.
    Fussies are more of a traditional core infantry than penals are as well.

    Also the satchel is a snare as much as Its a grenade- sure it will do the same thing, better even than its traditional counterpart BUT due to its short range and long ole animation its generally only effective vs hellen keller. Much like the old molitov (hell even the current molitov for that matter) its only as effective as the opponent lets it be. Keeps penals from being pushed, but not much else
  • #160
    3 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited April 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @vipper, its in the support. Same reason the usf mortar was ok with grens infront of it amd not ok with rifles.
    Okw have FANTASTIC support, soviet... Less so, the current maxim is nasty for sure but its still cons, no frp, and no out of base healing (that costs more a cons squad to begin with) for penals vs.... All of that for pfussies.
    Fussies are more of a traditional core infantry than penals are as well.

    Also the satchel is a snare as much as Its a grenade- sure it will do the same thing, better even than its traditional counterpart BUT due to its short range and long ole animation its generally only effective vs hellen keller. Much like the old molitov (hell even the current molitov for that matter) its only as effective as the opponent lets it be. Keeps penals from being pushed, but not much else

    Even without the support PFs are kinda comparable in AI to penals and cost 2 pop less. While getting even higher close range dps with the upgrade, and having a more convenient AT snare, a normal grenade and awesome vet bonusus. Also cheaper to reinforce/buy, only downside is they need a commander and cannot be bought from start.... PFs are 6 pop and have performance of 8-9 pop units, their initial price is only slightly too low, but the pop difference makes them pretty OP imo.

  • #161
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited April 2017

    Since PF are CP 2 and doctrinal they are NOT core infantry. Again my point is really simple PF and Penal are abcomparable so the idea that someone would call the one OP and the other UP is odd.

    Yes PF need to have their POP up but once more all units that come before minute 1 need to be re-balanced.

  • #162
    3 years ago
    moremegamoremega REDWOOD CITY CA USAPosts: 229
    edited April 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @raulmagana121707 unless you intend to fight infantry, or move, or are in an urban map, or want to chose ANY commander aside from breakthrough... But yea i suppose you will also find that using an AT gun more effective than using guards against a p4, thats actually how hard counters work believe it or not

    you would be pleasently surprised how many inf kills you can get with cheap 45 muni arty abilty w/ JT. almost as effective as demo.

  • #163
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Vipper said:

    Again my point is really simple PF and Penal are abcomparable so the idea that someone would call the one OP and the other UP is odd.

    But you aren't taking into account the fact their performance is also affected by the faction they belong to. A six man Axis squad will be a hell of alot more durable than a six man allied squad just based on what they are fighting.

    Add in the fact that PF already have similar fighting capabilties, a reliable long range snare, flares, model 24 grenade and vet rewards including passive sprint.

    Only changes I would advocate would be remove the snare in exchange for smoke to remove overlap and fix their pop.

    Volks prove to be a harder unit to balance as currently they overperform, being far too cost efficient, yet changes need to be delicate as they form the core of the OKW army and could easily be overnerfed and bring the whole faction to a grinding halt.

  • #164
    3 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited April 2017

    @Vipper said:
    Since PF are CP 2 and doctrinal they are NOT core infantry. Again my point is really simple PF and Penal are abcomparable so the idea that someone would call the one OP and the other UP is odd.

    Yes PF need to have their POP up but once more all units that come before minute 1 need to be re-balanced.

    PFs have an insanely low POP cost which makes them OP. You can have an equal amount of cons as PFs in your army, that is ridiculous given how far they are off in performance. Its not that difficult to see why PFs are OP and Penals are not (or at least not nearly as), Penals have ~33% higher POP cost for comparable AI performance. They are not at all in the same league.

    I agree with the need for infantery rebalance, except the one minute mark, sappers/obers could also use some tweaks still I think.

  • #165
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @newshatterhand is right here.
    You can't complain about penal pop cap while at the same time ignore PFs, which perform better, scale better(higher and more vet bonuses) and are much more flexible with regular nade, AT nade, flares and upgrade which increased sight as well as DPS.

    Doctrinal or not is irrelevant here, certain stats and performance justify certain cost and popcap, how you obtain the squad is completely irrelevant.

    PFs are extremely cheap for what they bring to the table in comparison to Penals.
    I also agree that if there was an infantry rebalance to happen, it should have ALL infantry in the scope as there is too many of them to ignore some.

  • #166
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    PF need to have higher POP.

    On the other hand Penal vs PF comparison:
    Veterancy
    Penal have lower XP value, come out earlier and get better vet bonuses up to vet 3.

    Time frame
    Penal arrive allot earlier with PF needing CP2.

    Cost
    The MP cost is about the same but PF need to invest to 90 MU to get have comparable DPS with Penals.

  • #167
    3 years ago
    1. Soviet: Field HQ - Build in friendly territory only or allow a decap option.Buildings are incredibly hard to destroy even with fire.
    2. Soviet: Partisans- Remove grenade and make panzershrek an upgrade for AT partisans not instant deployment. They are not elite soldiers and give players no time to react
    3. American: Calliope - Lower armour /hp or reduce damage.Too damaging and too much hp/armour
    4. Wehrmacht: Ostwind - Enable unit to ignore terrain. Fires 80% of its arsenal into the terrian
  • #168
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @thekingsown said:

    Most of those are good suggestion but there is specific units that are changed. Better give feedback on those units.

  • #169
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    Penals have better vet at vet 3? They have better FIREPOWER not necessarily better vet. Fussies are more durable at vet 3 than penals and get increased nade range (which is a big deal because while penals are hitting harder they rely ENTIRELY on that dps to kill, fussies can toss a nade amd instantly have the upper hand via out right killing models or at the absolute least pushing out of cover.
  • #170
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited April 2017

    Well Penal do not perform worse or scale worse than PF as someone suggested nor are Pf more cost efficient that Penals...

    In addition how and when you obtain an infantry is important to cost (see obersoldaten).

    Durability is debatable due to "last man standing"...

  • #171
    3 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited April 2017

    I think the British 6 pounder needs some tweaks to make it more like a pak cuz the accuracy is noticeably better. I've never seen it miss a 222 shot whereas paks can miss aec.

  • #172
    3 years ago

    I wanna know the stats for sniper usage by Brits and Ost. Are there less people getting snipers now? They seem very weak

  • #173
    3 years ago

    I totally agree the fusiliers need pop increase but breakthrough is already quite an underused doctrine. Maybe a bit more popular in team games for the jagdtiger?

  • #174
    3 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    The Ost sniper is still quite good, but that's only because of its vet 1 ability.
    Can't tell you the number of times I've had an opponent quit on me due to his squads being wiped by explosive rounds. :D
  • #175
    3 years ago

    Should that Penal sticky stachel be locked behind the Ptrs?

  • #176
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Should that Penal sticky stachel be locked behind the Ptrs?

    Why?
    There is no logical reason for that.
    It was tested this way already, it made penals underpowered.

  • #177
    3 years ago

    @Katitof said:

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Should that Penal sticky stachel be locked behind the Ptrs?

    Why?
    There is no logical reason for that.
    It was tested this way already, it made penals underpowered.

    Yep guess that ship has sailed. Just another unit to add to the list where one cannot approach with vehicles. 222 doesn't like it!

  • #178
    3 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,060
    edited April 2017

    @Widerstreit said:
    Bring back pre-patch Maxim and make Con's PPsh-upgrade non-doc. I think that would help much more.

    People will hate me... but I think it would be best too nerf Panzerfüsiliere and put them into T0 instead of Volks. So Volks become a Doc-unit instead (Volkssturm with Faust). => OKW gets a more decent AT-ability in early game (at-rifle-grenade) and a more clear inf situation. Sturmpio = close / Panzerfüsiliere = middle / Ober = far.

    It's a cool idea. 290 mp strong core infantry.

  • #179
    3 years ago

    @SquishyMuffin said:

    @Katitof said:

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Should that Penal sticky stachel be locked behind the Ptrs?

    Why?
    There is no logical reason for that.
    It was tested this way already, it made penals underpowered.

    Yep guess that ship has sailed. Just another unit to add to the list where one cannot approach with vehicles. 222 doesn't like it!

    222 can fire and deal damage quite effectively outside satchel range and even if driving within range satchel can be dodged unlike AT snairs that (volks)grens have. I don't see the big issue with it.

  • #180
    3 years ago

    So the M4C Sherman spam/commander has become the new Soviet meta even though it's going to be nerfed right :S Is it just a new meta or an OP meta? That is the question. A commander where one doesn't have to tech at all until the latter half of the mid game is..I dunno.

  • #181
    3 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited April 2017

    @raulmagana121707 said:

    @eonfigure said:
    No I'm sorry. I don't agree. The C. panther doesn't need nerfs. The soviet "MARKED FOR DEATH" ability is free range, and isnt limited to having a unit on the field, that's vulnerable to AT nades and mines. If it's going to be a choice between a (King tiger for crying out loud) and a Cpanther. It's fine as it is.

    I nvr use KT nowadays JT pak 43 are so much more effective.

    Alright...nice mentioning a unit that isn't in the balance notes or topic.

    Nevertheless, No pro player would ever put priority over a panther vs their own KT. And if you say yes, you're not only lying to us, but you're lying to yourself. There's a reason the KT takes every tech building to aquire and a fortune to purchase. I find it very odd, that such hard nerfs are being implented to a unit that's only decent against fighting tanks and far below average vs infantry. The bogus TD buffs are still in play. The Cpanther is decent, but it isnt anything special (certainly not worth a King Tiger), and you don't want it's aura to benefit it's ally? You're giving the player NO options, and the reason i sound so passionate right now is because it's a stupid update.

    "You must be choose between the Cpanther and King Tiger, also if you choose CPanther, your ally basically will NOT benefit from it." Why in the hell would i get the CPanther then?? I'll just buy a normal panther and get a KT. At this point the aura is garbage anyway.

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