[OKW][ALL] Is late game OKW OP? How should OKW change?

2456

Comments

  • #32
    2 years ago

    @Farra13 Here here.

    Peeps on the fan site are talking about the role Obers should have. Let me just say here that I am against the taking away of the passive suppression with Vet. They are so expensive at 50mp per model - something I'd keep just for OKW's faction uniqueness to persist. It's already been removed from the luchs. It's exactly the same as the Stuka - high risk, high reward.

  • #33
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @SquishyMuffin To be honest, I actually find the Obers supression a pain, its really lowers their damage output as they put units into supression so quickly, meaning they get the bonus RA, it really hampers their killing power. I'd prefer a vet 4 ability to suppress, as OKW do float plenty of muni and this would give players more flexibility.

  • #34
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722
    edited April 2017

    @Farra13 said:
    Maxims may have got effectively nerfed, but If i remember right, its still a damn hmg, just as OKW struggles vs mortars and at guns, not too mention garrisons.

    As far as I have tested maxim has not "effectively" been nerfed. It simply had a change of role from an A-moving unit to stationary weapon. With bulletin I find the unit very effective especial in garrison.

  • #35
    2 years ago
    company14u2company14… Posts: 572
    edited April 2017

    @Farra13 said:

    @company14u2 said:
    Put walking stuka behind schwere. Maxims got nerfed; okw should not have access to stukas within the first ten minutes. Stukas snowball the faction in team games.

    Maxims may have got effectively nerfed, but If i remember right, its still a damn hmg, just as OKW struggles vs mortars and at guns, not too mention garrisons. Stuka is their main counter. Its a pubstomp unit that is high risk, high reward, if your struggling against it, its more a skill issue than an imbalance. The sacrifices that OKW makes for a stuka means low field presence and no armour in a realistic time frame, just go agressive and punish him for it.

    Also, Usf needs a counter against kubels. Okw lost their fausts, so soviet scout cars can counter them, but usf has to rely on one doctrine to hold points in open maps.

    RE aren't expensive, neither are zooks, you have the tools.... use them.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Splitting the schwere has other great benifits: if you put obers lmg behind the upgrade (presumably the AA and armour upgrade) it could be buffed but also allows ir stgs to be more accessible.

    ^^This dark, this is what I have advocated for a long time. It would fit really well with OKW's current tech design.

    Re do not work. Wc51 is the only right answer.
    Almost everyone is using the walking stuka and do not say ''skill related'' there are only 4-5 teams i would take advice from, and I know most of them.

  • #36
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @company14u2 said:

    Almost everyone is using the walking stuka and do not say ''skill related'' there are only 4-5 teams i would take advice from, and I know most of them.

    The ask them for advice, otherwise watch some high-skill games and follow the tactics they use to deal with stukas.

  • #37
    2 years ago

    Stukas will be set back to flak hq. It is just a matter of when. No faction should have 8 minute rocket arty.
    Arranged teams is different than soloing in auto-match. All large tournaments will have arranged teams. You usually have one guy who is building walking stukas and selecting command panther as their doctrine. Schokolade sometimes does this does this in 2's.

  • #38
    2 years ago
    DaCobblerDaCobbler Posts: 49

    Played a 1 v 1 on Westwall (which from my experience, heavily leans on Axis, especially OKW with the building rushes and cover areas and corridors) and I was up against a non prestige 67 OKW. Throughout the game this guy seemed to have limitless manpower. Despite wiping several squads with Kats, T34s, and SU-76s, this guy kept pumping out Volks, Sturms, even a handful of Fallshimjaegers.

    Not just that he was able to push out about 5 Panzer IVs and 2 Panthers.

    Uh... I really felt like the 'elite' OKW had more units than the 'Mass Horde' Soviets.

    I don't understand this 'OKW is only good late game'. Um, from my experience in 1v1s and Team Battles, OKW is good throughout the whole match. Their Sturm Pios bloody Riflemen and Conscripts (and can rush for key buildings). Their Volks have a high survivability rate, get STG44s, Panzerfausts, and easily get rank which give them far too much buffs. Then there's the stuff like Raketenwaffe with nano stealth technology and can retreat, LEIGs with amazing accuracy and range. MG34s because OKW lacked suppression (uh, Flaktrack?). And of course the well rounded heavily armored easy to use Panzers.

    I don't play as Brits (hate playing Defensive) but whenever I face OKW, whether it's a majority in a team match or 1v1, man are they frustrating to play against. Hell, I tried playing OKW and I am baffled how easy they are to play. It seems like the only times you'll likely lose is if your base is destroyed or you made this huge mistake whereas playing US and Soviets you feel like you're at a constant disadvantage throughout the match. Early game OKW infantry shred Allied infantry or just equal/outnumber you. Midgame their support weapons + infantry just grind you. Lategame their tanks and everything just gore your units.

    There doesn't seem to be a weakness to them at all. People say 'Oh, they're manpower heavy'. Uh, I see a ton of units still being produced and squad wipes don't occur as much because they generally have a high survivability rate. Meanwhile Allied infantry constantly get grinded down or wiped.

    In my recent game, I destroyed 4 Panzer IVs and 1 Panther. Still he was able to replace them or just throw in more infantry while I was down to 1 SU76, 2 Kats, 1 Guard, and 1 Conscript. Most of my infantry died because of Volks-Fallschimjaeger spam while my tanks died to Panthers and Panzer IVs (once I lost two T34s to one Panzer IV, which escaped of course).

    If Relic or the Community wants to reinforce the idea of OKW being this manpower heavy Elite faction, they really should do something about the Manpower Income Rate. I feel that they field way too many units or do so too quickly. What I assumed was Relic's goal for OKW was to create this Elite faction that prides itself on preservation and fielding superior powerful units. And I dunno, I thought OKW should have less comeback potential. Yet time after time I see OKW replacing their losses or often fielding a larger army than Allies.

  • #39
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    You dont get rewarded for playing well early - mid with OKW.

  • #40
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 687
    Okw has a realy good chance to hold the map in early game. even more vs sov now the maxim had its role changed and the fact that volks are way to cost effective and scale too well. And the kubel is an excelent unit to harras and decap.

    Luchs along with ambush raketten and upgraded volks plus mg43 give them a solid mid game presence. And leigs just picks enemy of with almost pinpoint acc and is always near reinforce point (good luck wiping that) And dont forget swere hq wich if put up early will lock down a part of the map long enough to gain a real advantidge. Ofcourse there is a risk to that as well.

    Okw can get a large chunk off the map in early and mid game while suffering little mp bleed for it. That is imo the reward for playing well in early/mid game.

    Volks are all you need to achive that.
  • #41
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 182

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    Okw has a realy good chance to hold the map in early game. even more vs sov now the maxim had its role changed and the fact that volks are way to cost effective and scale too well. And the kubel is an excelent unit to harras and decap.

    Luchs along with ambush raketten and upgraded volks plus mg43 give them a solid mid game presence. And leigs just picks enemy of with almost pinpoint acc and is always near reinforce point (good luck wiping that) And dont forget swere hq wich if put up early will lock down a part of the map long enough to gain a real advantidge. Ofcourse there is a risk to that as well.

    Okw can get a large chunk off the map in early and mid game while suffering little mp bleed for it. That is imo the reward for playing well in early/mid game.

    Volks are all you need to achive that.

    So what happens when you put two Maxims or other machine guns into an important garrison?

  • #42
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    edited May 2017

    Lol Maxims. All, and I mean ALL soviet 1v1 players go DSHK commander now. It's so funny how dominant T1 play has become. Well done balance team, your wish has been granted.

    People keep saying how good volks are, but against the soviet mainline infantry that is the penals I do not see it.

  • #43
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 687
    edited May 2017
    @Noitatohtori
    Volks and Inc grenades and leigs. flack track and pz2 have been buffed vs garrison.

    That or go around make him waste that mg in one location and force him to move it.
  • #44
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,791
    @SquishyMuffin well, for a mere 10mp volks beat the tar out of cons at every point of the game, including effecincy of of unlocking their nades/snare so for a small price bump of 5 times that difference and a small unlock cost i think its reasonable for penals to clober them.
  • #45
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    @thedarkarmadillo OKW are weak against Soviets. Not rewarding to play either. There's no real superior armour advantage. Switching to easy penal mode now because it's getting stale. 2 engineers, 2 penals, dshks, t70, dshk, t34, m4c sherman spam = win...

  • #46
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 182

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    @Noitatohtori
    Volks and Inc grenades and leigs. flack track and pz2 have been buffed vs garrison.

    That or go around make him waste that mg in one location and force him to move it.

    So while OKW has called in a truck, deployed it and focused 2 to 3 Volks in one area to take down a garrison with a single MG, what has the opponent been doing?

    Point is, USF had smoke grenades that they could upgrade as soon as they got the resources for all their very good mainline infantry, and they STILL got a mortar to deal with garrisons. That hardly compares to leig that needs teching and is infamous for being abysmally inefficient against almost all targets. Or to a Flak track that comes online after 7 minutes, with an extremely small window before light tanks..

    Point is, OKW is fine in early game. Factions can function while having weaknesses. It simply means you need to wait or go around instead of trying to deal with a garrison you can't deal with. They made a mistake when they gave USF unnecessary tools that just bloat the faction needlessly. But that's getting tangential, what I was going for is that OKW has tools to survive to the late game, and other factions have tools necessary to stop them. The game is now more balanced than it has ever been.

    That doesn't mean there aren't units that are too weak or strong, though. Conscripts, for example, are pretty much shit.

  • #47
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 687
    edited May 2017
    @Noitatohtori

    Okw is good at all stages of the game with a great late game. Other factions are weaker in 1 stage. Ost imo struggles to late game. Okw has an easier time reaching late game.

    Okw also got stuff they didnt need. Imo the p4. The damage buff the volks got last year after loosing the shreck.

    The volks need to be nerfed before or when okw get acces to smoke. They trade even with penals and outscale them later on while having obers later down the line. The smoke should go on sturms in place of stun gren or leigs.
  • #48
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 182

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    @Noitatohtori

    Okw is good at all stages of the game with a great late game. Other factions are weaker in 1 stage. Ost imo struggles to late game. Okw has an easier time reaching late game.

    Okw also got stuff they didnt need. Imo the p4. The damage buff the volks got last year after loosing the shreck.

    The volks need to be nerfed before or when okw get acces to smoke. They trade even with penals and outscale them later on while having obers later down the line. The smoke should go on sturms in place of stun gren or leigs.

    Volks are fine and OKW doesn't need smoke.

  • #49
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Noitatohtori said:
    Volks are fine and OKW doesn't need smoke.

    Lol, wut?

  • #50
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 182

    @Farra13 said:

    @Noitatohtori said:
    Volks are fine and OKW doesn't need smoke.

    Lol, wut?

    Not all factions should have the same tools and be able to symmetrically deal with all situations. OKW suffers against garrisons. Their advantages are strong infantry that scales well and their late game prowess and adaptability in mid-late game.

  • #51
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    True sight is a core mechanic of coh 2, smoke is the players main tool to control his opponents vision by obscuring his units sight, any half-decent player uses smoke zealously for opening up flanks, assualting positions or even performing soft retreats. Its an essential tool that for some odd reason has been out of OKW's reach since their implementation, this leads to certain maps with key point garrisons basically denying OKW an early game, hampering their ability to do more than a move into enemy lines and making them near useless against heavy support weapon play. This all forces strategies like walking stuka and leig spam, not exactly fun for either side...

    Assymetric design shouldn't prohibit a faction from having what is definitely a key component in a coh2 players toolbox.

    As for volks, they scale far too well for cost. So well in fact that they will happily trade with barred up rifles, contest vet 3 penals and at the least give bren sections a bloody nose, all for a dirt cheap cost. That on top of throwing incendiary grenades out like kids do firecrackers on chinese new year, easily allowing them to slaughter even top tier elite infantry as its basically unavoidable. All this makes Obers redundant, as why invest in such a fragile expensive unit when volks will do near enough the same job for half the cost and quarter the risk?

    Their performance for cost is obscene, I mean 25 mp for a reinforce? Even if an OKW player throws his squads under a t-34's tracks repeatedly, he will still barely notice the bleed. Meaning even if you crush him early game, so long as he keeps a fuel point active, a KT is nearly inevitable. It's definitely a noticable problem in nearly all game-modes at the moment.

  • #52
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 182

    @Farra13 said:
    True sight is a core mechanic of coh 2, smoke is the players main tool to control his opponents vision by obscuring his units sight, any half-decent player uses smoke zealously for opening up flanks, assualting positions or even performing soft retreats. Its an essential tool that for some odd reason has been out of OKW's reach since their implementation, this leads to certain maps with key point garrisons basically denying OKW an early game, hampering their ability to do more than a move into enemy lines and making them near useless against heavy support weapon play. This all forces strategies like walking stuka and leig spam, not exactly fun for either side...

    Assymetric design shouldn't prohibit a faction from having what is definitely a key component in a coh2 players toolbox.

    As for volks, they scale far too well for cost. So well in fact that they will happily trade with barred up rifles, contest vet 3 penals and at the least give bren sections a bloody nose, all for a dirt cheap cost. That on top of throwing incendiary grenades out like kids do firecrackers on chinese new year, easily allowing them to slaughter even top tier elite infantry as its basically unavoidable. All this makes Obers redundant, as why invest in such a fragile expensive unit when volks will do near enough the same job for half the cost and quarter the risk?

    Their performance for cost is obscene, I mean 25 mp for a reinforce? Even if an OKW player throws his squads under a t-34's tracks repeatedly, he will still barely notice the bleed. Meaning even if you crush him early game, so long as he keeps a fuel point active, a KT is nearly inevitable. It's definitely a noticable problem in nearly all game-modes at the moment.

    Smoke isn't a key tool, OKW is doing just fine without it. Normalizing this game across the board needs to stop.

  • #53
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Noitatohtori said:

    Smoke isn't a key tool, OKW is doing just fine without it. Normalizing this game across the board needs to stop.

    Smoke is a key tool, just like supression platforms or healing methods. OKW not having smoke causes a range of knock-on balance issues, an example being the current DShk, a unit easily dealt with as OST yet causes untold nightmares for OKW.

    OKW not having caches in lieu of salvage is a unique design, them not having smoke is poor oversight on relic's part.

  • #54
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 182
    > @Farra13 said:
    > @Noitatohtori said:
    >
    > Smoke isn't a key tool, OKW is doing just fine without it. Normalizing this game across the board needs to stop.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Smoke is a key tool, just like supression platforms or healing methods. OKW not having smoke causes a range of knock-on balance issues, an example being the current DShk, a unit easily dealt with as OST yet causes untold nightmares for OKW.
    >
    > OKW not having caches in lieu of salvage is a unique design, them not having smoke is poor oversight on relic's part.

    I disagree with you completely. There are other ways to displace MG's, and the lack of smoke is no more a key tool than demo charges or AT mines
  • #55
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited May 2017

    @Farra13 said:
    Smoke is a key tool, just like supression platforms or healing methods.

    Smoke is valuable, but the examples you list separate themselves from smoke quite a bit IMO.

    The widely available nature of smoke on the US stock lineup is what makes smoke so valuable for them. Only smoke off-maps are truly great abilities, but the fact that a unit in every tier of the US can use smoke is what makes it so good (if you count the LT as part of his tier). And there's 2 units in each the HQ and t4 that have it available as well. This means you'll almost always have a unit in range that can provide smoke cover for a unit in trouble, thus mimicking the capability to be called in anywhere that an off-map smoke ability from your commander possesses.

    Adding smoke to 1 early-mid unit on OKW might help, but I also don't think it's going to be as much of a Godsend as many people are anticipating. If they give it to more than 1 unit, maybe they could come in the forum of an Leig barrage for your battlegroup, and the Repair Station upgrade could be made into a package that also gives volks a hand-thrown smoke grenade. Volks with stgs still need some kind of nerf, but in tandem with that they could use smoke added.

    It gives them options, but neither are super easily available. That way, even if you go mech HQ first, you'll still have smoke while still having to sacrifice healing for a time at least. Even with both options OKW still won't be anywhere near the Hookah Bar that is USF.

  • #56
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    True sight is a core design feature of coh 2, just as the supression mechanic is. Smoke is the key tool players have to manipulate their opponents vision, whether to maneuver, attack or disengage. Just as mg's or mounted anti air weapons are the core tool for applying supression to infantry.

    Smoke is not some vaunted feature of the USF, its been a core part of high level gameplay since the game began. With mortars being the main source, but you also have p-tac, offmap, infantry like shocks with smoke grenades. Its almost crucial when it comes to dealing with massed weapon teams or armour engagements, hence why maxim spam was sooooo effective against OKW, but for OST is was rather simple, albeit annoying and ineffective strategy to deal with.

    Without smoke, OKW are left at the mercy of support weapons like mgs and at guns, their only option being to spam stukas and leigs to give them a chance. It not only limits tactical options, but also stagnates gameplay by forcing players to use indirect en-masse just to effectively clear garrisons or bombard defensive lines.

    If you add smoke to OKW, you can increase the wind-up of volks incendiary grenades as they now have cover to get close to buildings, that would do alot to help lower their combat potential against all allied infantry. You could knock stukas back to the schwerer, as the need for a strong support team counter wouldn't be so crucial, therefore the Stuka wouldn't be needed so early.

    Just a simple smoke barrage on the leig would give them a great deal of utility, enough to help handle early garrisons and mg spam, whilst giving their late-game less emphasis on brute force and blobbing to breakthrough and a push towards more tactical fire and maneuver strategies such as flanking and pushing cuttoffs.

  • #57
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited May 2017

    @Farra13 I am only commenting on how big a deal everyone here makes about them not having smoke. Healing and suppression are far more vital to success than smoke. That does not mean smoke is not important, it means its less important than 2 very important things. I suggested giving smoke to them in 2 forms, I don't disagree they need it.

    You are misreading me if you think I'm suggesting US introduced smoke to the game. Obviously they did not, but let's not act like they didn't bring it to a whole other scale. They are the only faction with core infantry in the game to possess smoke, and they can cast it a damn good range. Now they have their mortar, and 2/3 tanks in their final tier have smoke barrages that can be easily used to save other units or themselves.

  • #58
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    Is it feasible to get rid of the incendiary nades that never really existed and flat out replace them with just a normal nade of USF callibre and a smoke nade at vet 1? I feel like it's too embedded into the balance of the whole game now though.

  • #59
    2 years ago
    WunderKatzeWunderKat… Posts: 702
    edited May 2017

    OKW is just absolutely broken.

    They are full of exclusive mechanics (like 5 star vets and mobile HQs) and counterless units. KTs, Sturm Tiger, Obers, IR half track and Walking stuka are all units with NO counters.

    Walking stukas draw silly lines through your army and come out before any mediums exist. And mediums cant do shit because AT. Paired with the IR half track it will wipe any and ALL team weapons that approach the front lines.

    IRs are cheap and constantly provide info on the enemy, there is nothing that can hit them back, they prevent flanks, reveal vulnerabilities and allow super effective arty trades. Its so fucking lazy. Just set it up and if the enemy comes for it they will trade negative because they have to push through your army. And. You know exactly when and where they will come.

    Obers fight at such a long range are provide so much attrition that it becomes impossible to use infantry snares or grenades without losing your squad. Red cover + Obers can mean insta wipes. It's stupid. There is no infantry in the game that can fight them and closing in on them just prompts them to throw a wipe bomb on you.

    The KT has no counter. Period. Their is nothing in the game that can contest the KT from the front. Its annoying on the offense and completely immortal on the defense.

    The sturm tiger is like a short range calliope. Like the KT there is nothing in the game that threatens it. There is no weak point. No big gun to prevent it from rolling up firing and rolling away. Pair it with the IR and it becomes a nightmare. It sneaks up on ambulances, repairing vehicles fires and leave because for some stupid reason OKW HAS to have free vision 24/7.

    And they get free AA at their spawn and mobile HQ. What the fuck.

    This game is broken. Its completely unfun. I'm tired of this.

    I don't know if the IR should exist, maybe as a commander call in? Also the walking stuka should always fire in a straight line, if a player splits up their team weapons you should only be able to hit one, not all of them.

  • #60
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    @WunderKatze Hut ab, du hast vollkommen recht.

    Game is brocken at this state, we don't have to speak much about OKW, this fraction is OP. For me it is a wonder if any Soviet player dominates a game.

    They have to redesign the fraction. Until the King becomes a doc-unit.
  • #61
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    @Widerstreit counter KTs with TDs and counter Obers with tanks or literally any kind of artillery at all. Just generally anything that isnt core infantry will do it. Sturm Tiger is countered by mediums.

    This is not opinion or debatable
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.