[OKW][ALL] Is late game OKW OP? How should OKW change?

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  • #92
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,066
    edited May 2017

    @WunderKatze said:
    NO ONE REFUTED MY POINTS, NO ONE EVEN DISCUSSED THEM.

    KT, ST, Obers. All discussed. All refuted.

    @WunderKatze said:
    I don't even know what to say at this point. You won't tell me your rank

    because my dick is big enough that I don't need to measure it.

    @WunderKatze said:
    you don't discuss my points

    See above

    @WunderKatze said:
    Here's a tip. A valuable life lesson. You don't just get to pick what points you address.

    Actually, here's a really handy life lesson for you. You do get to pick what points you address. See the above conversation where I did exactly that and everything worked out pretty swell. There's even a popular saying about it - picking your battles? Perhaps you should do that some time. Stop trying to set up a straw man, especially after whining about (what were not) straw man arguments.

  • #94
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    @WunderKatze said:
    @RiCE If you want a response go back and edit your post. You failed to address any and all of my concerns. Here's some hints: IR=FREE vision no MU costs (exception is British command veh), Stuka is twice as tanky as other non-doc rocket artys and has a much much more potent barrage, what exclusive mechanics are you talking about in allies? Probably none in particular clap clap, Russian incendiaries have a wind up, add a timer delay to the OKW super flame nades (like frags have), just as useful vs garrisons but not fucking easy OP against inf. I mentioned the 5vet but let be more explicit. It gives the walking Stuka these INSANE reload time reduction and it gives obers suppression, turns the Jagdtiger into an AI vehicle. Some places it has been toned down others it hasn't been.

    Unique mechanics are like USF crew repair, or UKF brace emplacement ability, or weapons racks, convertible mobile HQ, 5 level of veterancy, lack of observation points, etc... you can clap now!

    Regarding the IR.. its not free, you have to buy a unit which cannot fight. Yes, its useful, but its sweeping is relative slow, and it has a different mechanic compared to other recon abilities. Still its not broken, just because its different.

    Btw, OKW is too strong, but not because vet5, or stuka, or IRHT, or flame nades. But because how Volks perform like a 280MP infantry for a 250MP price, with cheap reinforcement cost, fast vet and AI weapon upgrade. That's the issue. And all of this started with double nerfing Obersoldaten to a manpower sink, and moving changing Volks AT weapon (which was an AI nerf) to an AI (buff) weapon. And now everyone wonder whats wrong...

  • #95
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588
    edited May 2017

    @WunderKatze said:

    @Lazarus said:
    More than 2,000 hours. Now lets put our dicks and the tape measure away and have a balance discussion

    I tried and you guys fired away with the staw man attacks and fixated on nothing important. Try these:

    Free AA? Why?

    Why should the walking stuka pick an fire axis? Why does it need to be able to bomb multiple team weapons.

    The incendiary needs a short timer to prevent it from being spammed in infantry fights.

    Why can UKF brace their emplacements and why can't axis do the same?
    Why can USF decrew and repair their tanks, and why can't axis do the same?
    Why can UKF medics use free fast heal aura, while WM has to pay munition for medpacks?
    Why can UKF and USF pick up weapons from racks and why can't axis give panzerschreck to any unit?
    Why can allies have 6 men support squads, while axis have 4?
    Why can USF build a T0 mortar squad, while OKW don't have any vision blocker or suppression breaker ability?
    Why can infantry ride a UC and why can't volks jump on a Kubel?
    Why can ISU152 swap between AI and AT shells, and why can't Elefant do the same?

    Again: These are DIFFERENCES you are talking about, not balance issues. Maybe if everyone telling you the opposite of what you think, its time to consider the possibility of you are wrong.

  • #96
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited May 2017

    @RiCE said:
    Again: These are DIFFERENCES you are talking about, not balance issues. Maybe if everyone telling you the opposite of what you think, its time to consider the possibility of you are wrong.

    None of the differences you bring up relate to the unique issue of OKW having free AA. Your examples only serve to work against your point. Such as:

    @RiCE said:
    Why can infantry ride a UC and why can't volks jump on a Kubel?

    That has an obvious answer, the kubel can capture on its own and even does it faster than regular infantry. Same goes for your USF OKW T0 comparison, which makes me wanna barf a little cause OKW has the most diverse openings in the game, while USF has the least.

    Do you have an answer for why the OKW gets free AA? Why does the flak HQs gun not require a upgrade of some kind, muni or otherwise? For how reliably it shoots down expensive munitions call-ins like p47s/IL-2s it should have a cost. To me that example of assymetry is far less black and white than all of the others you listed, as you can even pit the OKW against their own axis counterpart. Wher needs pintles, a scout car, or an ostwind if they wanna shoot at planes.

    Leaving out the fact that this free AA base can also be used to defend critical points on the map, but I digress...

  • #97
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Yea, i dont think the OKW SHOULDNT have the 37mm, but it shouldnt be free... And tbh it would make timing for things like obers better if it was a split cost.
  • #98
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588
    edited May 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @RiCE said:
    Again: These are DIFFERENCES you are talking about, not balance issues. Maybe if everyone telling you the opposite of what you think, its time to consider the possibility of you are wrong.

    None of the differences you bring up relate to the unique issue of OKW having free AA. Your examples only serve to work against your point. Such as:

    @RiCE said:
    Why can infantry ride a UC and why can't volks jump on a Kubel?

    That has an obvious answer, the kubel can capture on its own and even does it faster than regular infantry. Same goes for your USF OKW T0 comparison, which makes me wanna barf a little cause OKW has the most diverse openings in the game, while USF has the least.

    Do you have an answer for why the OKW gets free AA? Why does the flak HQs gun not require a upgrade of some kind, muni or otherwise? For how reliably it shoots down expensive munitions call-ins like p47s/IL-2s it should have a cost. To me that example of assymetry is far less black and white than all of the others you listed, as you can even pit the OKW against their own axis counterpart. Wher needs pintles, a scout car, or an ostwind if they wanna shoot at planes.

    Leaving out the fact that this free AA base can also be used to defend critical points on the map, but I digress...

    Those were example for faction design differences not for balance issues. Free AA is a faction design difference and NOT a balance issue. (No one wants to ride a kubel)

    Ofcourse we can talk about separating the building from the Flak upgrade (just like the healing was for the other truck). But honestly the MedHQ with its healing and retreat upgrade is overpriced as well, compared to UKF healing and forward retreat. But since these are not game breaking issues, i say these are only minor differences between factions. Same goes for the FlakHQ imo.

    The reason why its free for OKW, because the HQ itself is relatively expensive, and the timing of the tanks lock behind that tech level is balanced like this. In case you separate the tech building and make the Flak upgrade available for an additional cost, the stock building cost should be reduced. But that would make all the tanks in that tech level available earlier. In other words, optionally you can skip the flak upgrade to get a P4 or a Panther earlier.

    But don't get me wrong, all i think is Volks are the real balance issue here... and i think mainline infantry for ALL FACTIONS should be balanced before anything else. Namely: Get Volks, Grens, Cons, Rifles and IS inline to have a solid base for game balance.

  • #99
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    @rice i think ideally if you split the tech cost of the AA you could lock the panther behind it (and i suppose it would be best to lock the KT availability too) to allow obers to hit sooner and promote use of the poor P4
  • #100
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited May 2017

    @RiCE said:
    But honestly the MedHQ with its healing and retreat upgrade is overpriced as well, compared to UKF healing and forward retreat. e anything else. Namely: Get Volks, Grens, Cons, Rifles and IS inline to have a solid base for game balance.

    I really could not disagree with this philosophy more. First of all, it is not at all overpriced by any means, because you cannot simply compare it to one faction. If you compare it Soviets, it should probably cost 1000 manpower (exaggerating), since they can't get it at all.

    Second it's NOT overpriced compared to the UKF one, its 300mp on a free tech building that is more durable than the british CP that can't be upgraded with healing. That's nothing for OKW, who are by far the least manpower drained faction in the game.

    The forward retreat is what makes volks so much worse. They are the only faction with 5 vet levels and they have the earliest forward retreat. That means their squads generally see more action earlier, leading them to gain their better vet faster, since they spend less time retreating/traveling.

  • #101
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,066

    I don't know if I said it in this thread or elsewhere, but one of my suggestions for the FHQ is for it to unlock medics at the base sector, but still have the FRP upgrade. That way you have to choose between fighting at the front, or fighting at full HP. This, in conjunction with removing self healing from vet 3 Volks (or at least moving it to vet 5) would really do wonders for kneecapping OKWs blobability. The problem then becomes USF/UKFs blobability due to their FRPs and medic methods, though those factions can be tweaked around that fact.

  • #102
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588
    edited June 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    i think ideally if you split the tech cost of the AA you could lock the panther behind it (and i suppose it would be best to lock the KT availability too) to allow obers to hit sooner and promote use of the poor P4

    That's a good idea. I have to admit i didn't think about locking just the Panther behind it. It could work.

    The price could be critical ofcourse. If it too cheep it will be a no-brainer, if it too high, people will risk too much pushing the truck too forward and leaving it unarmed too long.

    But worth testing imo...

  • #103
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    I really could not disagree with this philosophy more. First of all, it is not at all overpriced by any means, because you cannot simply compare it to one faction. If you compare it Soviets, it should probably cost 1000 manpower (exaggerating), since they can't get it at all.

    Yes, but i think vanilla factions are inferior to WFA and UKF in general. I think that's an other issue.

    Second it's NOT overpriced compared to the UKF one, its 300mp on a free tech building that is more durable than the british CP that can't be upgraded with healing. That's nothing for OKW, who are by far the least manpower drained faction in the game.

    More durable indeed, but not cheaper and the tech building is not free either. The truck is 100+15, converting is 200+25 the healing is 100+15 and the forward retreat is 300. Total 700MP+55FU for a healing forward retreat. UKF tech building is 180+30 i think, the healing aura for infantry is somewhat 40MU (one time price) the forward station is 200MP and the forward retreat function is 250MP. Total 630MP+30FU+40MU. I think UKF version comes earlier and its cheaper.

    The forward retreat is what makes volks so much worse. They are the only faction with 5 vet levels and they have the earliest forward retreat. That means their squads generally see more action earlier, leading them to gain their better vet faster, since they spend less time retreating/traveling.

    Actually the current state of volks makes the forward retreat OP. Still i think UKF version is earlier and cheaper (as i said above).

    • Volks perform over their cost, and their cost is lower than IS squad = you can spam them
    • Their reinforcement cost is low = you can sacrifice them and play aggressively
    • The issue is not their 5 vet level, but the speed how fast they gain. You can easily get vet5 volks around 5-6 minute by playing aggressively with them.

    Forward station would be completely fair compared to UKF version if Volks wouldn't overperform.

  • #104
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    @Lazarus said:
    I don't know if I said it in this thread or elsewhere, but one of my suggestions for the FHQ is for it to unlock medics at the base sector, but still have the FRP upgrade. That way you have to choose between fighting at the front, or fighting at full HP. This, in conjunction with removing self healing from vet 3 Volks (or at least moving it to vet 5) would really do wonders for kneecapping OKWs blobability. The problem then becomes USF/UKFs blobability due to their FRPs and medic methods, though those factions can be tweaked around that fact.

    I think the problem is not the healing, but the fact you can play recklessly with your infantry, when you know you can retreat anytime and get back in action fast. I think the forward retreat point should be doctrinal for all faction.

  • #105
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    I think its a compounding issue. All post EFA have hilariously strong return to battle capabilities, AOE healing, self healing, rapid repair, FRP... As EFA retreating, or even taking damage weakens you, as wfa you can quickly return to the fight.

    It feels like an effort to make the game more quick paced, but its diluted the tactical element of staggered retreats and tactical play
  • #106
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    FRP has to be one of the worst concepts that Relic introduced to the game, it basically rewards bad gameplay discourages positioning units into spread out formations, allowing players to use the retreat button to dodge off-maps and aoe weapons when blobbed, all without suffering the penalty that original vanilla multiplayer brought about, by having your units return all the way to base to regroup. I would feel little remorse if they were removed altogether.

    As for the aura heals, the only two factions I think could really see an argument for them having them are the SOV (especially as its limited to their base sector) and USF, mainly due to the fact that out off all five factions, this pair are the most reliant on large amounts of infantry.

  • #107
    2 years ago
    WunderKatzeWunderKat… Posts: 731
    edited June 2017

    @Lazarus You have not talked about my points other than boasting about the worst units and commanders in the USF line up. Kudos. You probably haven't played USF in teams past 100. You don't get there by dicking around and maintaining nonsense optimism for the worst units.

    OKW is the reason team games aren't fun. At all.

    @Farra13 said:
    Not too mention that cost efficiency allows OKW to basically ignore bleed and remain agressive at all points in the game, never having to worry about holding back/playing defensive to save for tech or new units.

    That constant agression literally chokes their opponents, who can't keep replacing the losses from trading with them and continue teching/building new units, leading OKW to either outtech their opponent and crush them with units like the KT or grant them the mainstay of the map in exchange for a breather to recoup.

    So yeh, adressing volks should be the top priority before touching everything else.

    The problem is you strip away that and your left with units like the mg34, the leig and other sub-par core units. Everytime they are changed this discovery is made and remade. I can deal with volks aggression with MGs and green cover but IR tracks spotting deep in my lines and hyper accurate stuka rain is something that has ZERO counter play. NONE.

    The ridiculous mechanics like non-doc IR vision, the fucking stuka creeping barrage that can be placed freely on along axis, a few of the last obtuse 5 vet abilities (maybe they got rid of suppression on obers, but the reload on the stuka, HE jadg, etc), free AA and non-doc heavies and those stupid fucking instant throw fire bombs MUST go. These are highly exclusive mechanics that completely and UTTERLY dominate team games to the point where you get choked into playing the same strategies over and over again.

    And I know that the rhetoric is we 'can't balance 4v4' but hell it can be cleaned up because the issues OKW creates in team games are painfully obvious. Seriously. The walking stuka NEEDs to be changed. It is cancerous in team games and completely destroys team weapons before they can react. Why do they need a stock IR halftrack? It makes maneuvering in the choke point filled maps even harder. It's just stupid design.

    Obers are dumb. Right after operation charlie fox there was this big discussion about some factions have later tier infantry and others stick with a scaling unit. Having the factions be split between those two camps (scaling vs separate late game unit) just creates problems.

  • #108
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,066

    @WunderKatze said:
    @Lazarus You have not talked about my points

    Obers, KTs, STs, all discussed, all refuted.

  • #109
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited June 2017

    @RiCE said:
    More durable indeed, but not cheaper and the tech building is not free either. The truck is 100+15, converting is 200+25 the healing is 100+15 and the forward retreat is 300. Total 700MP+55FU for a healing forward retreat. UKF tech building is 180+30 i think, the healing aura for infantry is somewhat 40MU (one time price) the forward station is 200MP and the forward retreat function is 250MP. Total 630MP+30FU+40MU. I think UKF version comes earlier and its cheaper.

    They come at essentially the same time, except one of them is a free tech building. The cost of 300mp and 35 fu (truck+bghq) doesn't count at all, that's your tech cost for the units. Not only that, but that cost ALSO unlocks snares, grenades, and stg upgrade (assuming its your first tech). Brits need a whole bunch of MP and Fuel to unlock their equivalents in their side-tech.

    Yeah you spend a little more (less if you include infantry section side-tech), and you get A LOT more. Your analysis of the brit retreat point is flawed too, as you're comparing the 40muni healing on 1 squad to area healing that's always at the base. And the durability point should not be understated, that's one of the most broken things about the OKWs FRP. It comes early, and it takes some time to destroy. The brit one is very flimsy, and US's is obviously super fragile if you want healing/reinforcing to be there.

  • #110
    2 years ago

    The problem is not their late game, it's their early and mid game, which right now is OP solely to the supersoldiers that are volksgrenadiers.

  • #111
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @For the rest of his life ha detto:
    The problem is not their late game, it's their early and mid game, which right now is OP solely to the supersoldiers that are volksgrenadiers.

    Volksgrenadier shrecks OP
    Volksgrenadiers stg OP
    Volksgrenadier luger OP
    .....

    Volksgrenadier performance wise are much inferior to any mainline except cons.
    Their stg are mediocre: dps wise double stg < a single bar/bren, double bar is possible and stg's leave no slots free.
    The unit can't stand against other mainlines without outnumbering the enemy or being in cover advantage.
    Their vetting bonuses at vet 5 are mediocre compared to vet 3 rifles and IS bonuses, volks are outperformed, get less cooldown bonus, less RA, less accuracy... all applies to inferior starting stats.

    Volksgrenadier aren't the best mainline, but are probably the most if not the only effective tool OKW has after tier 0.
    Their mainline isn't supported by reliable/tier 0 team weapons like soviets tier 2, OST, Brits, isn't as powerful as soviet tier 1, USF, Brits (lol).
    And this is why this happens: https://www.coh2.org/topic/60897/gcs-main-round-stats-w-updates
    "But the main round is barely a valid balance factor !!1!!1"
    And this is why at the last pages you get the lastest gcs rounds among the 4 top players, where OKW got the lowest win ratio anyway, and by a huge gap...only 3 victories out of 9 matches.
    USF got 100%, Brits 75%, Soviets 100%, OST 90%, OKW 33%....

    But maybe you wanted to say :"The problem is not their late game, it's their early and mid game, IN which right now OKW stands solely to volksgrenadiers (because otherwise we all know okw would die in every game by the 4 min mark), since their early sturmpios unit for some weird balance reason doesn't scale at all in combat like OST panzergrens except for a vet 5 RA bonus they will never get, OBERS are an expensive elite that a faction shouldn't need to fight other mainline, but to counter other elites, useless against specific playstyles, panzerfusiliers have a useless run-fast-out-of-combat ability but no passive healing, forcing the player in teching tier 1 (volks self heal bonus is the only direct advantage yes, but okw is the only faction that has medics linked to a specific tier) and can be called in only at 2 CP despite being a mainline that starts even weaker than volks and ONLY after vetting becomes an incredibly effective mainline because of the LOL balance.

    Damn t9

    @WunderKatze ha detto:

    @Lazarus You have not talked about my points other than boasting about the worst units and commanders in the USF line up. Kudos. You probably haven't played USF in teams past 100. You don't get there by dicking around and maintaining nonsense optimism for the worst units.

    OKW is the reason team games aren't fun. At all.

    @Farra13 said:
    Not too mention that cost efficiency allows OKW to basically ignore bleed and remain agressive at all points in the game, never having to worry about holding back/playing defensive to save for tech or new units.

    That constant agression literally chokes their opponents, who can't keep replacing the losses from trading with them and continue teching/building new units, leading OKW to either outtech their opponent and crush them with units like the KT or grant them the mainstay of the map in exchange for a breather to recoup.

    So yeh, adressing volks should be the top priority before touching everything else.

    The problem is you strip away that and your left with units like the mg34, the leig and other sub-par core units. Everytime they are changed this discovery is made and remade. I can deal with volks aggression with MGs and green cover but IR tracks spotting deep in my lines and hyper accurate stuka rain is something that has ZERO counter play. NONE.

    The ridiculous mechanics like non-doc IR vision, the fucking stuka creeping barrage that can be placed freely on along axis, a few of the last obtuse 5 vet abilities (maybe they got rid of suppression on obers, but the reload on the stuka, HE jadg, etc), free AA and non-doc heavies and those stupid fucking instant throw fire bombs MUST go. These are highly exclusive mechanics that completely and UTTERLY dominate team games to the point where you get choked into playing the same strategies over and over again.

    And I know that the rhetoric is we 'can't balance 4v4' but hell it can be cleaned up because the issues OKW creates in team games are painfully obvious. Seriously. The walking stuka NEEDs to be changed. It is cancerous in team games and completely destroys team weapons before they can react. Why do they need a stock IR halftrack? It makes maneuvering in the choke point filled maps even harder. It's just stupid design.

    Obers are dumb. Right after operation charlie fox there was this big discussion about some factions have later tier infantry and others stick with a scaling unit. Having the factions be split between those two camps (scaling vs separate late game unit) just creates problems.

    How obers are dumb ? they have their role as support unit and elite counter.
    The elite mechanic is the same as any other faction elite with CP requirements, obiviously each of those units will hit the field when mainlines vetted up.
    This is why elites vet up much faster.

    4vs4 is a puddingshow anyway, heavies limited to one per player softened it, but 4vs4 will still be the mess it always was.

    Stuka is somehow cancerous, but Brits can drop 90 rockets with only 120 fuel.
    Incredibly ineffective at taking out infantry even if the enemy gives a minimal amout of care, the stuka excels at wiping buildings and lined team weapons but the aoe is incredibly low, making the barrage hit or miss that makes stuka unreliable (6 rockets with huge gaps that don't kill models found even inside the perimeter of rockets visual blast area sometimes).
    THIS is the main reason WFA revamp is trying to change it.

    Also no need for such language:"stupid fucking instant throw fire bombs MUST go"
    Their "fire bombs" are the only valuable counter OKW has against garrisons except stuka, aka the only tier 1 counter to garrisons (since isg does 0 damage to buildings for some reason).
    OKW pays three times a molotov just to be able to throw faster a flame nade that still has 0 impact damage.>

  • #112
    2 years ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 268

    Its the damn cheap reinforce cost of volks, combained with the forward retreatpoint that make them so OP. Not to forget the free molotov package they have makes at least the maxim worthless with its usless supression it got a while ago. No other Allied basic inf gets free granades/molotov so why should them.

  • #113
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,066

    @mrdjjag81 said:
    No other Allied basic inf gets free granades/molotov so why should them.

    Because no Allied faction has absolutely 0 access to smoke? I mean, there's plenty of Volks that need nerfing (that I've already said in this thread) but this isn't a fair comparison.

  • #114
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @mrdjjag81 ha detto:
    Its the damn cheap reinforce cost of volks, combained with the forward retreatpoint that make them so OP. Not to forget the free molotov package they have makes at least the maxim worthless with its usless supression it got a while ago. No other Allied basic inf gets free granades/molotov so why should them.

    Okw gets nothing for free.
    It pays 2 trucks (30 fuel) to get access to tier 1/2 and tier 3.
    Usf pays the same for side teching.

    Both factions pays their additional fuel.

    Ost pays with battlephases.

    When you guys will understand it ?

  • #115
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @Lazarus ha detto:

    @mrdjjag81 said:
    No other Allied basic inf gets free granades/molotov so why should them.

    Because no Allied faction has absolutely 0 access to smoke? I mean, there's plenty of Volks that need nerfing (that I've already said in this thread) but this isn't a fair comparison.

    Nerf volks and you buried okw mid game.
    Just increase volks cost/reinforce and stg cost to 120 and buff them (both in RA and stg performances, both are ridicolously underwhelming).

    Because volks spam wouldn't exist in the first place if:
    1)volks had any valuable/tier 0 support weapon like the cheap cons
    2)volks weren't subpar cheap infantry good only for cost efficient that needs to outnumber superior infantry to win.

    Now since early team weapons are an ost thing..

  • #116
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > Nerf volks and you buried okw mid game.
    > Just increase volks cost/reinforce and stg cost to 120 and buff them (both in RA and stg performances, both are ridicolously underwhelming).
    >
    > Because volks spam wouldn't exist in the first place if:
    > 1)volks had any valuable/tier 0 support weapon like the cheap cons
    > 2)volks weren't subpar cheap infantry good only for cost efficient that needs to outnumber superior infantry to win.
    >
    > Now since early team weapons are an ost thing..

    just curious, do you play the game?
    volks spam will ALWAYS exist, they are quick to reinforce, get anti garrison and a snare, an on the move dpa upgrade that increases dps at all ranges AND have a nice little FRP to keep slinging themselves to, not to mention self heal at vet 3
    NO they dont have a BAR, but they make up for that easy by having no additional cost outside of teching to get it, and it being cheaper on cheaper units. if you dont think they are any good, try playing soviet without cheesing it. try having something like conscripts lose from the word go and then lose HARDER because of the "awful" upgrade

    asfor t0 support, volk have a literal assault unit and a no bleed car to back them up if they so chose, its not an MG, but its not going to care unless the enemy is sending their first 3 squads in an attack move at you.

    and again, they are cERTAINLY not sub par, in a faction with 2 sets of elite troops you see as follows : volks....
    because they are more than enough
  • #117
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited July 2017

    Its been reiterated multiple times. The first and foremost balance issue with OKW, is that volksgrenadiers perform far beyond their initial cost and the token muni investment. Solve that problem first, so that such a core part of OKW's army composition no longer overshadows the elite infantry or carries the underperforming units of the faction. Then you can examine how OKW performs as a whole without such a significant crutch, before making decisions about other nerfs, changes or buffs.

    Really it just needs to be a correction to the stg profile (better close-mid range, less long range damage), either moving the incendiary nade to sturms and granting them a cheap model 24, or adjusting the grenades potency against non-garrison infantry (with a timer, or slower throw animation). Then all that's left is some slight vet alterations (probably lowering their mad accuracy bonuses and sight) so their performance correlates with their low cost.

  • #118
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > Nerf volks and you buried okw mid game.
    > > Just increase volks cost/reinforce and stg cost to 120 and buff them (both in RA and stg performances, both are ridicolously underwhelming).
    > >
    > > Because volks spam wouldn't exist in the first place if:
    > > 1)volks had any valuable/tier 0 support weapon like the cheap cons
    > > 2)volks weren't subpar cheap infantry good only for cost efficient that needs to outnumber superior infantry to win.
    > >
    > > Now since early team weapons are an ost thing..
    >
    > just curious, do you play the game?
    > volks spam will ALWAYS exist, they are quick to reinforce, get anti garrison and a snare, an on the move dpa upgrade that increases dps at all ranges AND have a nice little FRP to keep slinging themselves to, not to mention self heal at vet 3
    > NO they dont have a BAR, but they make up for that easy by having no additional cost outside of teching to get it, and it being cheaper on cheaper units. if you dont think they are any good, try playing soviet without cheesing it. try having something like conscripts lose from the word go and then lose HARDER because of the "awful" upgrade
    >
    > asfor t0 support, volk have a literal assault unit and a no bleed car to back them up if they so chose, its not an MG, but its not going to care unless the enemy is sending their first 3 squads in an attack move at you.
    >
    > and again, they are cERTAINLY not sub par, in a faction with 2 sets of elite troops you see as follows : volks....
    > because they are more than enough

    Seriously, do you read ?
    I already told you my option isll to make volks pricy, both in cost and reinforce cost, and increase upkeep.
    Frp changes as well.

    No lol, they have their extra costs, called trucks.
    Okw pays 30 fuel for a complete teching to tier 3.
    Usf 30 fuel for grenades and racks.

    I always play soviet without cheese (penals-lendlease), and cons ppsh + tier 2 are more than a challenge, which outgun volks at close range and get incredible vetting bonuses at tier 3.

    Tier 0 support weapons scale, sturmpios become engies by 5 min mark with no combat bonus in veterancy, as more squads starts moving in groups and getting upgrades.

    No volks ARE subpar, if they need numbers ti win against superior infantry, or by the same logic cons aren't subpar.
    The only tactic avaiable for okw is to have more squads than the enemy does, because as I said they lose any support after early sturm.

    The obers are elite, the fact that they are nondoc doesn't mean that they should ALWAYS be built
    They are built nontheless as you can see in lastest gcs matches.
    They have their anti cqb elite role, and a faction shouldn't need rely on elite to stand against superior infantry.

    Okw shouldn't wait to tier 3 to keep up with rifles and is mopping the floor with an equad amount of volks, this is why people rather build volks

    This is why there is no reason to keep volks cheap and with inferior performances.
    If volks were the bolt action version of rifles with better stg priced and effective just as bars we won't see unbalanced 5-6 volks build orders.

    But right now I fail to see any other option to keep up that isn't fuel based or a tier 3(lol) unit, maybe you do ?

    Their utility was given as their only counter to buildings.

    No lol their vetting bonuses are inferior to any other mainline, especially accuracy and received accuracy.
    The only plus is passive healing in a faction that has medic linked to a specifc tier..

    Volks don't overshadow anything, elite are elite, can't be used as mainline, no faction requires elites to win, why okw should ?
    All the other stuff is pretty much crap or kinda up except luchs,puma,jadgpanzer 4, panzer4.

    "A cheap model 24"
    You mean panzerfus one ahahahhahahahahahahahah
    The flame nade is the only okw anti garrison, either give them to sturm with smoke or leave it.

    "Better long-mid..."
    Why ? Volks aren't grens, their stg despite mediocre allowed the unit to have some close range power to confront with rifles and have some chances in numerical advantage.

    This could work only with a buffed sturm that keeps being a good shock until late game, like panzergren scaling.
  • #119
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588
    edited July 2017
    • Fix allied infantries not to shred axis infantry in late game.
    • Fix Obersoldaten
    • Decrease Spio Panzerschreck price and make them able to fire the weapon before they got wiped out
    • Nerf indirect fires overall
    • Increase price for Allied TDs
      .... OR ....

    • Show some love for Panther and Panzer4

    • Nerf the frontal armor of JT and KT
    • Increase price for Volks

    To put it simple: Maybe if infantry game would be more balanced, and mortar / katyusha / stuka / calliope fire wouldn't rain constantly from the skies, and axis medium tanks would be more reliable, then OKW could use AT infantries against allied TDs instead buying OP super heavies all the time.

  • #120
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Seriously, do you read ?
    I already told you my option isll to make volks pricy, both in cost and reinforce cost, and increase upkeep.

    What the hell is the point in pushing volks price upwards to match their current stats? All that would do is allow OKW to continue crutching on their mainlines, and making obers, falls etc. obselete.

    No volks ARE subpar, if they need numbers ti win against superior infantry, or by the same logic cons aren't subpar.
    The only tactic avaiable for okw is to have more squads than the enemy does, because as I said they lose any support after early sturm.

    Volks aren't subpar. What on earth are you smoking? For cost; as in their combat performance compared to the resources you invest in them, they are hands down, the best infantry in the game.

    That's due to the combination of having a low initial price per squad, a low reinforce cost, the undodgeable incendiary nade that can tip any infnatry engagement in their favour, their no-brainer weapon upgrade that doesn't even follow the normal weapon profiles and the fact they scale incredibly well due to their vet rewards.

    This is why there is no reason to keep volks cheap and with inferior performances.

    Yes there is, it not only fits their original desisng concept, but it also prevents them overshadowing the OKW elite units. Why use expensive and fragile Obers, when volks will do a similar job, with less risk, for a much lower cost?

    If volks were the bolt action version of rifles with better stg priced and effective just as bars we won't see unbalanced 5-6 volks build orders.

    Or if volks weren't so cheap and near immune to bleed, we wouldn't see bloated blobs that continue to increase in critical mass.

    No lol their vetting bonuses are inferior to any other mainline, especially accuracy and received accuracy.

    And your talking out your arse, volks recieve the second highest accuracy vet rewards in the game, only penals get more and they have no weapon upgrades. They recieve 20% recieved accuracy, that's only 3% less than grens and tommies... hardly hamstringing them is it. That's setting aside passive healing, 40% weapon cooldown on a unit that has automatic weapons and even the sight bonus.

    Volks don't overshadow anything, elite are elite, can't be used as mainline, no faction requires elites to win, why okw should ?

    Because that is their faction design? You outscale the enemy by retaining your army, and using your more elite troops to simply outperform your opponent.

    "A cheap model 24"
    You mean panzerfus one ahahahhahahahahahahahah
    The flame nade is the only okw anti garrison, either give them to sturm with smoke or leave it.

    You didn't bother to even read that suggestion correctly.... Either give sturms an assualt kit with the incediary nade and smoke, in lieu give the volks the same model 24 as the p-fussies currently have. Its that, or add a timer/slower throw animation so the volks incendiary nade is no longer unmissable.

    "Better long-mid..."
    Why ? Volks aren't grens, their stg despite mediocre allowed the unit to have some close range power to confront with rifles and have some chances in numerical advantage.

    Once again, failing to read the post.

    Volks stg's don't follow the same weapon profiles as other upgrades do, currently its a flat upgrade with no downsides, as for some strange reason it buffs their close and mid damage, but doesn't affect their long range dps.

    It should lower their long range dps, so that players are forced to consider whether to take the upgrade, rather than just making it an instaclick the moment the first truck is down.

    This prevents overlapping with obers and falls, who are both long range combatants.

  • #121
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @SAY_MY_NAME ha detto:
    > > @Farra13 ha detto:
    > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > >
    > > Seriously, do you read ?
    > > I already told you my option isll to make volks pricy, both in cost and reinforce cost, and increase upkeep.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > What the hell is the point in pushing volks price upwards to match their current stats? All that would do is allow OKW to continue crutching on their mainlines, and making obers, falls etc. obselete.
    > >
    > > No volks ARE subpar, if they need numbers ti win against superior infantry, or by the same logic cons aren't subpar.
    > > The only tactic avaiable for okw is to have more squads than the enemy does, because as I said they lose any support after early sturm.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Volks aren't subpar. What on earth are you smoking? For cost; as in their combat performance compared to the resources you invest in > @RiCE ha detto:
    > * Fix allied infantries not to shred axis infantry in late game.
    > * Fix Obersoldaten
    > * Decrease Spio Panzerschreck price and make them able to fire the weapon before they got wiped out
    > * Nerf indirect fires overall
    > * Increase price for Allied TDs
    > .... OR ....
    >
    >
    > * Show some love for Panther and Panzer4
    >
    >
    > * Nerf the frontal armor of JT and KT
    > * Increase price for Volks
    >
    > To put it simple: Maybe if infantry game would be more balanced, and mortar / katyusha / stuka / calliope fire wouldn't rain constantly from the skies, and axis medium tanks would be more reliable, then OKW could use AT infantries against allied TDs instead buying OP super heavies all the time.

    You are late, the nerf KT justified rant was long ago, now allies td penetrate anything.
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