[OKW][ALL] Is late game OKW OP? How should OKW change?

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  • #122
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @Farra13 ha detto:
    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Seriously, do you read ?
    I already told you my option isll to make volks pricy, both in cost and reinforce cost, and increase upkeep.

    What the hell is the point in pushing volks price upwards to match their current stats? All that would do is allow OKW to continue crutching on their mainlines, and making obers, falls etc. obselete.

    No volks ARE subpar, if they need numbers ti win against superior infantry, or by the same logic cons aren't subpar.
    The only tactic avaiable for okw is to have more squads than the enemy does, because as I said they lose any support after early sturm.

    Volks aren't subpar. What on earth are you smoking? For cost; as in their combat performance compared to the resources you invest in them, they are hands down, the best infantry in the game.

    That's due to the combination of having a low initial price per squad, a low reinforce cost, the undodgeable incendiary nade that can tip any infnatry engagement in their favour, their no-brainer weapon upgrade that doesn't even follow the normal weapon profiles and the fact they scale incredibly well due to their vet rewards.

    This is why there is no reason to keep volks cheap and with inferior performances.

    Yes there is, it not only fits their original desisng concept, but it also prevents them overshadowing the OKW elite units. Why use expensive and fragile Obers, when volks will do a similar job, with less risk, for a much lower cost?

    If volks were the bolt action version of rifles with better stg priced and effective just as bars we won't see unbalanced 5-6 volks build orders.

    Or if volks weren't so cheap and near immune to bleed, we wouldn't see bloated blobs that continue to increase in critical mass.

    No lol their vetting bonuses are inferior to any other mainline, especially accuracy and received accuracy.

    And your talking out your arse, volks recieve the second highest accuracy vet rewards in the game, only penals get more and they have no weapon upgrades. They recieve 20% recieved accuracy, that's only 3% less than grens and tommies... hardly hamstringing them is it. That's setting aside passive healing, 40% weapon cooldown on a unit that has automatic weapons and even the sight bonus.

    Volks don't overshadow anything, elite are elite, can't be used as mainline, no faction requires elites to win, why okw should ?

    Because that is their faction design? You outscale the enemy by retaining your army, and using your more elite troops to simply outperform your opponent.

    "A cheap model 24"
    You mean panzerfus one ahahahhahahahahahahahah
    The flame nade is the only okw anti garrison, either give them to sturm with smoke or leave it.

    You didn't bother to even read that suggestion correctly.... Either give sturms an assualt kit with the incediary nade and smoke, in lieu give the volks the same model 24 as the p-fussies currently have. Its that, or add a timer/slower throw animation so the volks incendiary nade is no longer unmissable.

    "Better long-mid..."
    Why ? Volks aren't grens, their stg despite mediocre allowed the unit to have some close range power to confront with rifles and have some chances in numerical advantage.

    Once again, failing to read the post.

    Volks stg's don't follow the same weapon profiles as other upgrades do, currently its a flat upgrade with no downsides, as for some strange reason it buffs their close and mid damage, but doesn't affect their long range dps.

    It should lower their long range dps, so that players are forced to consider whether to take the upgrade, rather than just making it an instaclick the moment the first truck is down.

    This prevents overlapping with obers and falls, who are both long range combatants.

    I'm aware of stg dps curve, bar does the same MUCH better for the same price.
    To be precise, while stg long range dps barely change a single bar has three times the long range power of a garand, and the double of close range power.
    How is that an issue ?

    "Bar doesn't follow the normal dps curve, nerf it" ?

    Model 24 is pure crap.
    You want to remove the only good utility they have and counter to garrison and give it to a unit that has zero scaling in combat, bleed like crazy, has only 4 models...
    My mobile phone t9 wrote it wrong, i'm against either give it to sturms or replace it with model 24.
    At least until sturms bleed like that under mid game fire.
    What is the problem with fast throwing ?
    Okw pays three times a molotov just to throw it faster.....
    It does no impact damage, it does not wipe anything in seconds so team weapons can freely move away....

    Again, elite are elite, rangers will have an easy time with volks, at that time you will need obers.
    Falls are infiltration.
    Both units have been used extensively in gcs so this point is objectively wrong, those units don't overlaps.
    But okw can't be forced to rely on a tier 3 unit to counter normal mainlines (which by the way mop the floor with volks...).

    Wfa is simply mainline reliant, but unlike usf okw has a subpar mainline IN TERMS OF PERFORMANCES that needs numerical advantage.
    Buff volks mid-late and it's fixedn

    Plus 10%+10%/=/20% ,this is some basic math even a child can do.
    The veterancy bonus are straight up inferior compared to rifleman and rifles except the cooldown one, and all this applies to inferior stats by stock so YOU stop pulling shit out of your ass.

    What the volks can use is their ability to optimize mp and deal good trades against the opponent.
    A buff and price increase makes it different, putting the unit in line with wfa infantry.
    Because if the only infantry option given sturm veterancy and mg34 performances is volks, there is no surprise in seeing volls heavy builds.
    Or you wanna tell me that okw is supposed to lose any infantry engagement until tier 3 ?
    Obiviously you are gonna see more volks, as a reaction to rifles butchering an equal amount of those...

    This didn't happen with cons because:
    1) no brainer or not, the upgrade gives volks no advantage at any range over allies infantry, there is no way you can outsmart the enemy (except flame nade that muni bleeds you) and win an engagement without having more models in.
    Ppsh upgrade actually gives cons an edge in close quarters over all mainlines.
    2) actual maxim (nerfed) >>>mg34 has ever been,
    Isg comes late and overall without a good suppression platform non fuel based and such damage against buildings its performances, otherwise good, are crippled.

    This didn't happen with grens because:
    1)Their upgrade make them have the advantage over allies infantry in defense, so you knw that if you use properly that unit, you can win a 1vs1 vs rifles/penals..
    2)MG42, mortars.....
    3)Panzergrens, that aren't a lol unit that becomes pure utility and repair by the 6 min mark at best.

    Are we really talking about faction design ?
    Kubel with suppression, volks shreck, sturm with RA....
    4 KT per players in teamgames, double lmg for allies blob, demo 1 click wipe, call in meta.......
    Do i need to go on ?

    If you played well okw you would know that obers are late game powerhouses that can booby traps, use bundled and counter close range oriented elites (because all allies elites but para are close range oriented) quite well, thus they are commonly used anyway......

    Or let's remove he shells from sherman because you know, OBERS have been built more times than m8 motor carriage in gcs, so sherman needs to be nerfed.
    Nonsense, you are complaining that a 400 mp unit isn't built at ebery single match....

  • #123
    1 year ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    Wait. So double bar riflemen or infantry sections have a disadvantage when equipping them?

  • #124
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @SquishyMuffin ha detto:
    Wait. So double bar riflemen or infantry sections have a disadvantage when equipping them?

    Exactly XD

    Only rifles can have a no brainer upgrade + smoke.

    To sum it up for all folks:

    1) 2 stg are not even close too be as powerful as a single bar is at long range, while taking being roughly equal at close range AND tanke only 1 slot of the already awesome garands (and if you do maths, you will see that garands will make 1 bar rifles win close engagements anyway against 2 stg volks)

    2) You can equip 2 of them and completely forget about cover + 1 vs 1 at close range panzergrens and win.

    3) The dps curve is always in favour of allies mainline as they take a single bar anyway.

    4) 5 stars, 10 stars, 1000 stars, rifles vetting bonuses are mostly superior anyway (except cooldown and free healing in a faction that gets medics in a specific tier) and applies to better stock stats.
    Hell, sometimes i think that it is actually a downgrade as the roughly same or even inferiour vetting bonuses are spreaded through 5 levels rather than three.
    Things like 10%+10% R accuracy at vet 5 on volks while rifles get 23%+15% R accuracy in three levels of vet makes me woder what the heck is so special about okw vetting...

    5) The obers problem is non existant, obers, despite all the nerfs without price decrease (which is why obers is more situational than before) are still built in pro tournaments (check luvnest, or von ivan build orders).
    Being non doc doesn't mean having to be necessary always. i don't get why okw infantry combat should suck until tier 3...
    It's not like if okw survives, can field units for which allies have no counters....

    6) You are gonna see volks spam, no matter the cost, if an equal number of allies will never lose against volks while volks have no scaling sturmpios or good team weapons to support it.
    Those are three good options to address the issue, either buff mid game stg volks as sturm become engies, make sturm get a combat vetting bonuses in RA and dps, so it doesn't bleed like a pig and can stand against bars, give okw valuable team weapons and make okw infantry like cons + tier 2.
    But you can't expect a faction to become less reliant on a unit by simply nerfing it while IT HAS NO ALTERNATIVES until tier 3 (and, remember these words, the new "working as intended" volks bleeding will make obers even more rare while okw will start searching for some desperate mid game cheese to stand against allies mainlines).

  • #125
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 687
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    > What is the problem with fast throwing ?
    > Okw pays three times a molotov just to throw it faster.....

    yes they pay a bit more muni per use but its trown faster has a faster cooldown and thrown further. and the fuel you supposedly spend on it is normal teching not specialy invested for the ability. so the 3 times argument is paper thin.

    > It does no impact damage, it does not wipe anything in seconds so team weapons can freely move away....

    while being gunned down with the stg,s at close range... wich they will easely get to in that time.


    > Again, elite are elite, rangers will have an easy time with volks, at that time you will need obers.
    > Falls are infiltration.
    > Both units have been used extensively in gcs so this point is objectively wrong, those units don't overlaps.
    > But okw can't be forced to rely on a tier 3 unit to counter normal mainlines (which by the way mop the floor with volks...).
    >
    > Wfa is simply mainline reliant, but unlike usf okw has a subpar mainline IN TERMS OF PERFORMANCES that needs numerical advantage.
    > Buff volks mid-late and it's fixedn

    Buff volks mid-late game and you wont need anything other infantry at all anymore. obers are still non doc... volks are not meant to carry the faction into the late game like rifles are they are it for the faction owk has plenty of options to deal with rifles. unlike usf okw has a very powerfull late game on top of that.

    > Plus 10%+10%/=/20% ,this is some basic math even a child can do.
    > The veterancy bonus are straight up inferior compared to rifleman and rifles except the cooldown one, and all this applies to inferior stats by stock so YOU stop pulling shit out of your ass.

    They are cheaper and get 40% better cooldown 20% better sight range also 30% reload speed buff 45% better accuracy passive healing and a cheap no brainer upgrade from normal teching. and you call this bad.... really? the recc acc is the only thing slightly worse then what sections get. penals only get 15%. for such a cheap unit no matter how you spin it that is a really good deal.

    > What the volks can use is their ability to optimize mp and deal good trades against the opponent.
    > A buff and price increase makes it different, putting the unit in line with wfa infantry.

    they already are to close in line for their price, including investments. okw seems to be able to float mp like no other. this has to do with the fact that volks trade very very good with the enemy infantry.

    > This didn't happen with cons because:
    > 1) no brainer or not, the upgrade gives volks no advantage at any range over allies infantry, there is no way you can
    outsmart the enemy (except flame nade that muni bleeds you) and win an engagement without having more models in.

    Volks have a very big advantidge over cons at any range. the rng can make cons win on very few occasions

    > Ppsh upgrade actually gives cons an edge in close quarters over all mainlines.

    wich requires closing in to do anything realy and is doctrinal. it actualy screws their long range dps over wich isent great to begin with.

    > 2) actual maxim (nerfed) >>>mg34 has ever been,

    in my experience the mg34 supresses faster then the maxim now. so imo the maxim is slighty worse because it costs 260mp.
  • #126
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @TheLeveler83 ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    > What is the problem with fast throwing ?
    > Okw pays three times a molotov just to throw it faster.....

    yes they pay a bit more muni per use but its trown faster has a faster cooldown and thrown further. and the fuel you supposedly spend on it is normal teching not specialy invested for the ability. so the 3 times argument is paper thin.

    > It does no impact damage, it does not wipe anything in seconds so team weapons can freely move away....

    while being gunned down with the stg,s at close range... wich they will easely get to in that time.


    > Again, elite are elite, rangers will have an easy time with volks, at that time you will need obers.
    > Falls are infiltration.
    > Both units have been used extensively in gcs so this point is objectively wrong, those units don't overlaps.
    > But okw can't be forced to rely on a tier 3 unit to counter normal mainlines (which by the way mop the floor with volks...).
    >
    > Wfa is simply mainline reliant, but unlike usf okw has a subpar mainline IN TERMS OF PERFORMANCES that needs numerical advantage.
    > Buff volks mid-late and it's fixedn

    Buff volks mid-late game and you wont need anything other infantry at all anymore. obers are still non doc... volks are not meant to carry the faction into the late game like rifles are they are it for the faction owk has plenty of options to deal with rifles. unlike usf okw has a very powerfull late game on top of that.

    > Plus 10%+10%/=/20% ,this is some basic math even a child can do.
    > The veterancy bonus are straight up inferior compared to rifleman and rifles except the cooldown one, and all this applies to inferior stats by stock so YOU stop pulling shit out of your ass.

    They are cheaper and get 40% better cooldown 20% better sight range also 30% reload speed buff 45% better accuracy passive healing and a cheap no brainer upgrade from normal teching. and you call this bad.... really? the recc acc is the only thing slightly worse then what sections get. penals only get 15%. for such a cheap unit no matter how you spin it that is a really good deal.

    > What the volks can use is their ability to optimize mp and deal good trades against the opponent.
    > A buff and price increase makes it different, putting the unit in line with wfa infantry.

    they already are to close in line for their price, including investments. okw seems to be able to float mp like no other. this has to do with the fact that volks trade very very good with the enemy infantry.

    > This didn't happen with cons because:
    > 1) no brainer or not, the upgrade gives volks no advantage at any range over allies infantry, there is no way you can
    outsmart the enemy (except flame nade that muni bleeds you) and win an engagement without having more models in.

    Volks have a very big advantidge over cons at any range. the rng can make cons win on very few occasions

    > Ppsh upgrade actually gives cons an edge in close quarters over all mainlines.

    wich requires closing in to do anything realy and is doctrinal. it actualy screws their long range dps over wich isent great to begin with.

    > 2) actual maxim (nerfed) >>>mg34 has ever been,

    in my experience the mg34 supresses faster then the maxim now. so imo the maxim is slighty worse because it costs 260mp.

    The "i spend fuel for my nades hurr durr" makes even less sense.
    OKW spend the same amount of fuel for trucks (15 fuel per tier so at least two trucks which costs the same as usf complete side tech of racks and nades), despite paying the same fuel as usf.
    The fact that allies can choose what they need or take those and tech faster is actually an advantage, but all factions have extra teching fuel costs....

    At this point bar gun down even faster.
    Bad positioning/bad microing/bad map awareness didn't make you retreat your team weapons before.
    It still does't change the fact that nothing makes flame nade a nothing more than a way to force the enemy out of the building, with it's flame dps.
    If volks outgun you it's your fault and you deserve the wipe as much as okw deserve it.
    Ironically, dps wise, grandes guarantees more wipes than flame does.

    So you are confirming that okw is supposed to lose any infantry engagement until tier 3 ?
    And why it would ?
    Rifles were meant to work without mortars, we all know what kind of pain in the **** it was against mg's.
    Regardless of obers, that have their role as anti elite and defensive unit, okw has no other option more than volks...
    Shitty team weapons that sucks compared to even usf can't be useful, sturms doesn't scale---->spam is the consequence.
    Nerf will result in more spam as okw tries to not lose whole map control waiting for obers that, cosidering the tier 3 fuel requirement, won't come any fast.
    Obers will be needed against shocks, rangers, para....

    If we wanna talk about faction design...things like suppressing kubel, shreck volks, obers with lmg were all part of the original design....nonsense argument once more

    Again, 20% + 20% isn't 40%......srly did you studied maths ?
    No, they are all inferior, because applies to inferior stats in first place.
    Regardless of what you think, volks dps curve is always inferior to rifleman at any state, this is stats..
    And the RA difference is pretty big, 0.61 vs 0.89....hell did you even looked at stats ?

    You forgot that for 10 muni can close in a few seconds ?
    And it's simply not true, cons have the edge in close even after stg upgrade.
    Cons ppsh dps: 33
    volks stg dps: 31
    Consider that, unlike volks, cons get huge vetting bonuses of +40% accuracy and -40% R accuracy on a SHOCK mainline with sprint.

    How is that not great ? If used properly cons can win, volks instead will always be inferior to rifles and is at any range........
    In all this you are missing that cons have a whole tier 2, including an offensive mg that can quicly re in position and a mortar from start.
    The long range dps of cons is non existant until vet 3 huge accuracy bonus, so you are gonna use cons at close range anyway, no reason to not upgrade cons with ppsh anyway.

    Your experience count less than nothing, you may lie or you may be mistaken.
    Same for me so let's look at stats
    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=maxim_m1910_hmg_mp
    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=hmg_team_mg34_mp

    Maxim has better dps, suppression, bursts , 6 man crew, pack and unpack one second faster.
    mg34 is litterally the worst mg game, which isn't that bad for the price, but again, don't complain about volks spam if you make anything shit but volks and an elite that comes at tier 3, when you are already buried if you didn't fill the AI gap.

  • #127
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    I'm aware of stg dps curve, bar does the same MUCH better for the same price.
    To be precise, while stg long range dps barely change a single bar has three times the long range power of a garand, and the double of close range power.
    How is that an issue ?

    It's not an issue in terms of cost or performance as related to the stg upgrade, as you haven't bothered to calculate the difference properly. There are 3 stgs for same cost as a single Bar.

    STG
    DPS (F/N) 1.99/8.27 *3 = 5.97/24.81
    Accuracy (F/N) 0.37 / 0.55
    CD (F/N) 2.34 / 1.34

    BAR
    DPS (F/N) 5.00/14.70
    Accuracy (F/N) 0.40 / 0.75
    CD (F/N) 1.33 / 0.59

    That's at base values on a non-vet squad, so it doesn't take into account the 40% weapon cd and 45% accuracy bonus volks recieve, in comparison to the the rifle equivelent vet rewards of 20% weapon cd and only 30% accuracy.

    Plus 10%+10%/=/20% ,this is some basic math even a child can do.
    The veterancy bonus are straight up inferior compared to rifleman and rifles except the cooldown one, and all this applies to inferior stats by stock so YOU stop pulling shit out of your ass.

    You really have no clue, do you....

    Rifles
    280 mp, 7 pop, Reinforce cost 28
    Garands DPS (F/N) 1.84 / 7.66
    Target size 0.97

    Vet rewards
    1 - At grenade
    2 - -23% RA, -20% Weap cd
    3 - -15% RA, 30% accuracy, grenade range and ability cd reduction

    Volks
    250mp, 7 pop, Reinforce cost 25
    Kar98K DPS (F/N) 1.93 / 4.94
    Target size 1

    Vet rewards
    1 - -10% RA
    2 - +30% Accuracy, -20% Weap cd
    3 - Passive healing, -10% RA
    4 - 20% sight, +15% Accuracy
    5 - -20% Weap cd, -30% reload

    Self healing, longer vision range, much higher accuracy bonus, faster weapon cd, faster reload, much cheaper to purchase and reinforce, no-sidetech costs, earlier access to weapon upgrades on a faction that floats muni, can build sandbags, the incendiary grenade and panzerfaust.

    Veterancy bonuses are not inferior, nor are the base stats when you look at the cost in relation to performance.

    So despite the fact USF sacrifice any doctrinal rocket arty and have paper-armoured tanks, the advantage they recieve in terms of better quality infantry is hardly steep compared to the OKW basic mainline. Not even taking into account OKW itself floats muni as bad as SOV; allowing volks to thrown incendiary nades every engagement, has access to doctrinal elite AI specialists that easily match and then outperform vetted tommies, penals and rifles, foward emplacements and the ultimate non-doc super-heavy tank.

    For their cost, Volks are easily the best of the mainlines currently. You can't just increase their price to match performance, as they will only continue to overshadow Obers, falls and Jaegers, leaving OKW in an odd position of being a faction revolving around elite, specialised units, that seems to only needs its basic mainlines and a KT to really pull through a game.

  • #128
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,791
    Also worth pointing out a few things, okw are the only faction with healing from the go (no matter what tech they pick) and available on the front for up to 3 squads, so self healing volks isnt by any means necessity, all it does is compound blob power with the FRP

    also iirc the con ppsh doesnt negatively impact long range DPS.
  • #129
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @Farra13 ha detto:

    » show previous quotes
    It's not an issue in terms of cost or performance as related to the stg upgrade, as you haven't bothered to calculate the difference properly. There are 3 stgs for same cost as a single Bar.

    STG
    DPS (F/N) 1.99/8.27 *3 = 5.97/24.81
    Accuracy (F/N) 0.37 / 0.55
    CD (F/N) 2.34 / 1.34

    BAR
    DPS (F/N) 5.00/14.70
    Accuracy (F/N) 0.40 / 0.75
    CD (F/N) 1.33 / 0.59

    That's at base values on a non-vet squad, so it doesn't take into account the 40% weapon cd and 45% accuracy bonus volks recieve, in comparison to the the rifle equivelent vet rewards of 20% weapon cd and only 30% accuracy.

    » show previous quotes
    You really have no clue, do you....

    Rifles
    280 mp, 7 pop, Reinforce cost 28
    Garands DPS (F/N) 1.84 / 7.66
    Target size 0.97

    Vet rewards
    1 - At grenade
    2 - -23% RA, -20% Weap cd
    3 - -15% RA, 30% accuracy, grenade range and ability cd reduction

    Volks
    250mp, 7 pop, Reinforce cost 25
    Kar98K DPS (F/N) 1.93 / 4.94
    Target size 1

    Vet rewards
    1 - -10% RA
    2 - +30% Accuracy, -20% Weap cd
    3 - Passive healing, -10% RA
    4 - 20% sight, +15% Accuracy
    5 - -20% Weap cd, -30% reload

    Self healing, longer vision range, much higher accuracy bonus, faster weapon cd, faster reload, much cheaper to purchase and reinforce, no-sidetech costs, earlier access to weapon upgrades on a faction that floats muni, can build sandbags, the incendiary grenade and panzerfaust.

    Veterancy bonuses are not inferior, nor are the base stats when you look at the cost in relation to performance.

    So despite the fact USF sacrifice any doctrinal rocket arty and have paper-armoured tanks, the advantage they recieve in terms of better quality infantry is hardly steep compared to the OKW basic mainline. Not even taking into account OKW itself floats muni as bad as SOV; allowing volks to thrown incendiary nades every engagement, has access to doctrinal elite AI specialists that easily match and then outperform vetted tommies, penals and rifles, foward emplacements and the ultimate non-doc super-heavy tank.

    For their cost, Volks are easily the best of the mainlines currently. You can't just increase their price to match performance, as they will only continue to overshadow Obers, falls and Jaegers, leaving OKW in an odd position of being a faction revolving around elite, specialised units, that seems to only needs its basic mainlines and a KT to really pull through a game.

    LOL you don't even know how much stg volks get, you don't play okw at all, am i right.
    Volks get 2 stg, not 3.
    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=volksgrenadier_mp44_smg_mp
    Their stg dps is 4/16
    As you see, volks lose 2 rifles, while rifles only a single garand, 2 stg togheter have 2 more dps point than bar, but the difference fades if we put in that rifleman have garands.
    A single garand have 7.5 close range dps, almost the same as a single stg.

    Let's put the 3 stg and dps thing in the bullpudding locker ad close it, pretending it never happened.
    Now:
    1) Rifles only costs 30 more mp and 3 mp per model.
    2) Rifles will get a much better upgrade that only claims one slot and performs better than 2 stg.
    3) Rifles can equip 2 bar, to even more easily steamroll.

    Now, since "i have no clue" (but you don't even know how much stg volks get) let's put some facts.
    1) Final vet3 received accuracy of rifles is 0.61, volks get a 0.81 RA at vet 5
    2) A percentage that applies to inferior stats is less than a percentage of a superior stats.
    "40% bonus on automatics.." again, if you knew okw and you just didn't look at it from the steam store page of WFA dlc, you would know that stg works with rather short cooldown (1.34) and short bursts, while the 23% cooldown bonus is incredibly effective on bar, that normally fires a prolonged bursts followed by a longer cooldown.
    The cooldown bonus has more impact on the kar98k, sad but true.
    3) This is also for @thedarkarmadillo
    Considering special the healing bonus is really incredible.
    OKW is the only faction without a tier 0 healing except for the most inefficient healing system based on med packs.
    The sight bonus is a bit strange indeed, but if at the end of the day volks keep losing 1 vs 1 to 1 bar rifles it means vetting bonuses are anything but over the top, especially since vetting IS FACTORED in the late game intended potency of okw, thing for which they traded the ability of investing 200 mp in caches to get some capping denial and income boost.

    THIS POINT NEEDS BIG SPACE, SO YOU GUYS STOP GOING AROUND IT.
    Obers aren't overshadowed by anything, otherwise they wouldn't be used so extensively in competitive matches.
    Same for Fallschirmjager, Luftwaffe was meta in gcs....
    They have their specific defensive, anti elite role.

    They are used, this is a simple fact, as you can check in gcs von ivan and luvnest build orders for example.
    If your point is " but volks should be steamrolled until tier 3..." well, that is a wrong point and doesn't change the fact that players build aka find useful obers.

    I find funny that you got int0 faction balance with the usf late game.

    https://www.coh2.org/topic/60897/gcs-main-round-stats-w-updates/page/3

    OKW got 33% win rate among the 4 best top players, USF got 100%...
    Among all players usf got the highest win ratio (55%).

    It doesn't seem usf traded any late game power at all...especially since all td are now specifically set to counter the super heavies like KT.

    EVEN IF the usf late game is really that weaker, surely usf doesn't lack proper tools to counter late game powerhouse, otherwise wouldn't be so picked and get such results in competitive matches.

    So again, tell me why okw is supposed to have no way to counter rifleman until tier 3 ? Why it's infantry can't be buffed and priced (thing that would resolve spamming) since it's the only and the one thing that the faction can use as anti infantry in early-mid game until tier 3 arrives, or get proper shock units rather than engies with no combat scaling so it doesn't need to outnumber the enemy with volks to not lose before 14 min mark ?
    Because a guy who actually has no clue of how much weapons volks get in the upgrade says so ? seems legit.

    In all that the point still stand: "But you can't expect a faction to become less reliant on a unit by simply nerfing it while IT HAS NO ALTERNATIVES until tier 3 (and, remember these words, the new "working as intended" volks bleeding will make obers even more rare while okw will start searching for some desperate mid game cheese to stand against allies mainlines)."

  • #130
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 687

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    The "i spend fuel for my nades hurr durr" makes even less sense.
    OKW spend the same amount of fuel for trucks (15 fuel per tier so at least two trucks which costs the same as usf complete side tech of racks and nades), despite paying the same fuel as usf.
    The fact that allies can choose what they need or take those and tech faster is actually an advantage, but all factions have extra teching fuel costs....

    the truck is 15 fuel wich you will always spend to tech up it doenst really change the pace of the game. you get your fausts and nades with normal teching some say its a disadvantidge others say advantidge.

    So you are confirming that okw is supposed to lose any infantry engagement until tier 3 ?

    okw has a good dps engi for starting off the have a 0 bleed kubel wich can harras/cap and volks, okw has plenty of ways to win infantry fights. the luchs and a near medic hq leig are also great support for volks.

    If we wanna talk about faction design...things like suppressing kubel, shreck volks, obers with lmg were all part of the original design....nonsense argument once more

    Again, 20% + 20% isn't 40%......srly did you studied maths ?

    see your own point 3 lines down about rifles vs volks recieved accurcy....

    No, they are all inferior, because applies to inferior stats in first place.
    Regardless of what you think, volks dps curve is always inferior to rifleman at any state, this is stats..
    And the RA difference is pretty big, 0.61 vs 0.89....hell did you even looked at stats ?

    so for rifles you just stack the bonus to one and make it look bigger and for volks you dont...... rifles rec acc unstacked come down to 0.64 rec acc and volks down to 0.81 rec acc. please check again.

    You forgot that for 10 muni can close in a few seconds ?
    And it's simply not true, cons have the edge in close even after stg upgrade.
    Cons ppsh dps: 33
    volks stg dps: 31
    Consider that, unlike volks, cons get huge vetting bonuses of +40% accuracy and -40% R accuracy on a SHOCK mainline with sprint.

    volks get 30% and 15% acc buffs 30% reload buff 2x 20% cooldown buffs 20% sight range buff and 2 x 10% recc acc buffs and to top it off auto healing when out of combat on a unit that costs just 250 mp in a mp floating faction with stock elite inf and a stock heavy tank.
    How is this not a great/to good for such a cheap unit? once volks are properly priced the fixing of certain weak or underused units can begin. like obers coming sooner and give the flak track and mg34 some love.

    How is that not great ? If used properly cons can win, volks instead will always be inferior to rifles and is at any range........

    if for some weird reason the usf player doesnt upgrade with bars the volks can outdo rifles at long range. and also again rifles are it for the faction if they want better or other infantry the need doctrines. this imo justifies them being better with the upgrades. the only thing that can be toned down imo is the recc acc for rifles 0.63 is a tad to good for such a high dps squad 0.75 would be a good start imo.

    In all this you are missing that cons have a whole tier 2, including an offensive mg that can quicly re in position and a mortar from start.

    the soviet mortar is the slowest firing of them all, its oriented more on utility then damage with a very expensive flare. the offensive has been pulled out the maxim remember? it can take some more hits and unpack a lil faster but the offensive is gone. its dps remained the same but the supression takes forever now. and its vet ability is suposed to cover for that.

    The long range dps of cons is non existant until vet 3 huge accuracy bonus, so you are gonna use cons at close range anyway, no reason to not upgrade cons with ppsh anyway.

    So you are saying without doctrines cons have no use beside snaring and dying? putting a vet 3 con vs a fully vetted upgraded volk squad will result in the death of the con squad all day every day. The ppsh,s works if you get the jump on the volks.
    The vet 2 acc will f/n 0.46/0.75 just brings them close to volks base acc f/n 0.68/0.75. The vet 3 40 % rec acc bonus was changed like this to give them any live expentacy in the late game. the coudnt even snare a tank back then without a squad loss.

    Your experience count less than nothing, you may lie or you may be mistaken.
    Same for me so let's look at stats
    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=maxim_m1910_hmg_mp
    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=hmg_team_mg34_mp

    Maxim has better dps, suppression, bursts , 6 man crew, pack and unpack one second faster.
    mg34 is litterally the worst mg game, which isn't that bad for the price, but again, don't complain about volks spam if you make anything shit but volks and an elite that comes at tier 3, when you are already buried if you didn't fill the AI gap.

    When i look at those stats and see the 8 round burst i think these are the old maxim stats. when i am wrong i admit to it, lying isent my way of doing things even online.

  • #131
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    You'll have to forgive me with the stg quote, It has admittedly been a while since I played OKW. Even with two stgs, for cost the upgrade is a better investment as it works alot better with vet.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Now, since "i have no clue" (but you don't even know how much stg volks get) let's put some facts.
    1) Final vet3 received accuracy of rifles is 0.61, volks get a 0.81 RA at vet 5

    You also need to consider positioning, Volks fight from green cover at long range, the stgs do not impact dps at their furthest range, volks only need to remain at a distance to have an advantage against. The RA differences are then negligible if the rifles have to expose themselves and close every engagement to have any chance of winning.

    2) A percentage that applies to inferior stats is less than a percentage of a superior stats.

    Yes exactly, BAR cooldown between a burst of 4 bullets is (F/N) 1.33/0.59, with vet reduction of -20%, it goes down to 1.06/0.47. Volks STG cooldown is (F/N) 2.34 / 1.34, with a reduction of 40% it goes down to (F/N) 1.40/0.80. Even taking into account the BAR firing its burst faster, you can still see the volks recieve a much better reward for vet, so I'm not sure why you think the rifles get the better deal?

    The sight bonus is a bit strange indeed, but if at the end of the day volks keep losing 1 vs 1 to 1 bar rifles it means vetting bonuses are anything but over the top, especially since vetting IS FACTORED in the late game intended potency of okw, thing for which they traded the ability of investing 200 mp in caches to get some capping denial and income boost.

    And USF trades any non-doc rocket arty and has tank with paper armour, in exchange they recieve what are supposed to be the best infantry. Yet you want OKW volks to match them 1on1? Despite having the better opening game, a better light vehicle phase and a dominant late game due to heavy armour? Can't you see the flaw in that design? Is OKW only supposed to be vunerable in that awkward 5 mins in the mid-game when the allies get their first medium tank, whilst OKW continues to save for a JP4 or P4?

    THIS POINT NEEDS BIG SPACE, SO YOU GUYS STOP GOING AROUND IT.
    Obers aren't overshadowed by anything, otherwise they wouldn't be used so extensively in competitive matches.
    Same for Fallschirmjager, Luftwaffe was meta in gcs....

    Ober are overshadowed, they are rarely used as they have such crap timing, coming so late its near impossible to get the ball rolling in terms of vet, and the fact that volks will trade with other infantry for a much lower cost. Theya re a seperate problem that anyone can recognise, hence the whole idea of splitting the schwerer so that they can get on the field earlier.

    Falls are only meta as they are call-in cheese, easy squadwipes, just as partis were before the at nade problems were recognised.

    They are used, this is a simple fact, as you can check in gcs von ivan and luvnest build orders for example.
    If your point is " but volks should be steamrolled until tier 3..." well, that is a wrong point and doesn't change the fact that players build aka find useful obers.
    I find funny that you got int0 faction balance with the usf late game.
    https://www.coh2.org/topic/60897/gcs-main-round-stats-w-updates/page/3
    OKW got 33% win rate among the 4 best top players, USF got 100%...
    Among all players usf got the highest win ratio (55%).

    Your using far too small a sample, skill plays a massive part in those results, hardly fair when players like DEVM and Luvnest are trouncing on lower seeds with USF. Jump on coh2.org and look at the top ten players in each gamemode (1v1,2v2etc), then compare the winstreaks of the factions, OKW is consistently in double figures for win streaks in all of them. Something none of the other factions match.

    It doesn't seem usf traded any late game power at all...especially since all td are now specifically set to counter the super heavies like KT.

    USF late game isn't great, that's always been an issue. But I won't disagree that they overbuffed allied td's.

    So again, tell me why okw is supposed to have no way to counter rifleman until tier 3 ? Why it's infantry can't be buffed and priced (thing that would resolve spamming) since it's the only and the one thing that the faction can use as anti infantry in early-mid game until tier 3 arrives, or get proper shock units rather than engies with no combat scaling so it doesn't need to outnumber the enemy with volks to not lose before 14 min mark ?

    You have plenty of ways to counter rifles.... from the luchs, flaktrack, volks mixed with mg-34, carefully maneuvered sturms. Blobbing volks is just the easy way, as they are too cost efficient and inflict a much higher bleed on your opponent , in consistent engagements.

  • #132
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 687
    edited July 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:

    also iirc the con ppsh doesnt negatively impact long range DPS.

    0.88 x 3 = 2.64 total dps far for the 3 mosin nagants. 0.42 x 3 = 1.26 dps far for the 3 ppsh,s. 2.64-1.26=1.38 less dps at long range. cons have a total of 5.28 dps with six men at far range.

    maybe i did not include all nececary factors. if i left out any please correct me. but to me that looks like about a 25% decrease in longe range dps.

  • #133
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,791
    @TheLeveler83 i could very well be wrong, i just recalled it being a problem once (ive been around for far too long....) Im not great with DPS to be honest, best person i know at it would be @vipper maybe they can set us straight and true (not saying your numbers are wrong or anything but you seem slightly less sure about the formula than he would be)
  • #134
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722

    Cons with PPsh lose allot of far DPS but by range 15 the PPsh has better DPS.

  • #135
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @Farra13 ha detto:
    You'll have to forgive me with the stg quote, It has admittedly been a while since I played OKW. Even with two stgs, for cost the upgrade is a better investment as it works alot better with vet.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Now, since "i have no clue" (but you don't even know how much stg volks get) let's put some facts.
    1) Final vet3 received accuracy of rifles is 0.61, volks get a 0.81 RA at vet 5

    You also need to consider positioning, Volks fight from green cover at long range, the stgs do not impact dps at their furthest range, volks only need to remain at a distance to have an advantage against. The RA differences are then negligible if the rifles have to expose themselves and close every engagement to have any chance of winning.

    2) A percentage that applies to inferior stats is less than a percentage of a superior stats.

    Yes exactly, BAR cooldown between a burst of 4 bullets is (F/N) 1.33/0.59, with vet reduction of -20%, it goes down to 1.06/0.47. Volks STG cooldown is (F/N) 2.34 / 1.34, with a reduction of 40% it goes down to (F/N) 1.40/0.80. Even taking into account the BAR firing its burst faster, you can still see the volks recieve a much better reward for vet, so I'm not sure why you think the rifles get the better deal?

    The sight bonus is a bit strange indeed, but if at the end of the day volks keep losing 1 vs 1 to 1 bar rifles it means vetting bonuses are anything but over the top, especially since vetting IS FACTORED in the late game intended potency of okw, thing for which they traded the ability of investing 200 mp in caches to get some capping denial and income boost.

    And USF trades any non-doc rocket arty and has tank with paper armour, in exchange they recieve what are supposed to be the best infantry. Yet you want OKW volks to match them 1on1? Despite having the better opening game, a better light vehicle phase and a dominant late game due to heavy armour? Can't you see the flaw in that design? Is OKW only supposed to be vunerable in that awkward 5 mins in the mid-game when the allies get their first medium tank, whilst OKW continues to save for a JP4 or P4?

    THIS POINT NEEDS BIG SPACE, SO YOU GUYS STOP GOING AROUND IT.
    Obers aren't overshadowed by anything, otherwise they wouldn't be used so extensively in competitive matches.
    Same for Fallschirmjager, Luftwaffe was meta in gcs....

    Ober are overshadowed, they are rarely used as they have such crap timing, coming so late its near impossible to get the ball rolling in terms of vet, and the fact that volks will trade with other infantry for a much lower cost. Theya re a seperate problem that anyone can recognise, hence the whole idea of splitting the schwerer so that they can get on the field earlier.

    Falls are only meta as they are call-in cheese, easy squadwipes, just as partis were before the at nade problems were recognised.

    They are used, this is a simple fact, as you can check in gcs von ivan and luvnest build orders for example.
    If your point is " but volks should be steamrolled until tier 3..." well, that is a wrong point and doesn't change the fact that players build aka find useful obers.
    I find funny that you got int0 faction balance with the usf late game.
    https://www.coh2.org/topic/60897/gcs-main-round-stats-w-updates/page/3
    OKW got 33% win rate among the 4 best top players, USF got 100%...
    Among all players usf got the highest win ratio (55%).

    Your using far too small a sample, skill plays a massive part in those results, hardly fair when players like DEVM and Luvnest are trouncing on lower seeds with USF. Jump on coh2.org and look at the top ten players in each gamemode (1v1,2v2etc), then compare the winstreaks of the factions, OKW is consistently in double figures for win streaks in all of them. Something none of the other factions match.

    It doesn't seem usf traded any late game power at all...especially since all td are now specifically set to counter the super heavies like KT.

    USF late game isn't great, that's always been an issue. But I won't disagree that they overbuffed allied td's.

    So again, tell me why okw is supposed to have no way to counter rifleman until tier 3 ? Why it's infantry can't be buffed and priced (thing that would resolve spamming) since it's the only and the one thing that the faction can use as anti infantry in early-mid game until tier 3 arrives, or get proper shock units rather than engies with no combat scaling so it doesn't need to outnumber the enemy with volks to not lose before 14 min mark ?

    You have plenty of ways to counter rifles.... from the luchs, flaktrack, volks mixed with mg-34, carefully maneuvered sturms. Blobbing volks is just the easy way, as they are too cost efficient and inflict a much higher bleed on your opponent , in consistent engagements.

    "Volks need to remain at long range to have an advantage..."
    Volks stg dps at long range: 3X1.93 + 2X1.99 = 9.77
    Rifles 1 bar dps at long range: 4x1.84 + 1x5 = 12.36

    Rifles don't need to close in by any chance to win, THEY WILL ALWAYS have the dps advantage (and at the same time RA advantage) but the closer they get, the bigger is the gap between the squads.
    Add that rifles have a better moving accuracy multiplier ON A BIGGER ACCURACY, because kar like we said are high damage low accuracy rifles, and this cripple the moving dps of volks much more than rifles.

    Quote me, where did i say the volks should match rifles ?
    Did i propose to change volks rifles to semi auto g43 ?

    What i proposed was make it more expensive almost as rifles (270, 28 to reinforce), make each stg cost 60 muni and be as powerful as a bar is (worth noting that actual dps of stg is less than half dps point more powerful than the garand rifles get by stock), while keeping the three volks with bolt action models that will be the squad bottleneck, and in addiction not changing bolt action will keep volks stock much more inferior than rifles.
    As much as new stg will allow for balanced build orders less volks reliant, okw will pay more for the same three bolt action models.).
    Grens balance their inferior performances with team weapons or dedicated cqb elite squads that SCALE...volks gets neither of those, and while an stg buff won't make them as powerful as rifles, it will give the players a chance to 1vs1 allies infantry without relying on numerical advantage.

    Again wrong data, vet reduction isn't 40%, it's 20% + 20%, if you can't understand the difference i can't help you.
    2.34 - 2.34x20/100 = 1.87---->1.87 - 1.87x20/100 = 1.49
    Same for near cooldown.
    Volks RA : 1 - 1x10/100= 0.9---->0.9-0.9X10/100=0.81
    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=m1_garand_rifle_rifleman_mp
    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=volksgrenadier_squad_mp
    This explain the pathetic dps curve of stg even compared to garands, which are given by stock and have half point of dps less than stg.
    So keep saying that usf actually (and even after a volks buff and price increase) won't have the mainline advantage it's pointless because not true.

    You keep talking about late game, but than you talk about allies td melting axis armor.
    There's no such thing as high power spikes anymore, long time since axis dominated late game and allies early.
    Each faction can stand on it's own at any moment of the game, it can be because of powerful infantry, of good team weapons, of fast aggressive team weapons..
    Than you keep talking about usf having heavy tank and rocket arty only in doctrine, but by the same logic OST have no Heavy either.
    Being doc doesn't mean not being at all, especially since heavy cavalry and calliope are meta.

    But even considering the okw has a dinstict late game advantage (which isn't true, stats showed that in pro championship) and even considering vet 5 volks stg beat 1 bar rifles at vet 3 (which isn't true, tested in world builder at medium range (RA plays a big role), and stats regarding dps agree with that), just as the starting powerful infantry usf has is part of the usf design, okw design is veterancy playing a big role in augmenting stats of units that starts being inferior by stock.
    Otherwise why would okw lack caches ?
    You can't speak about usf design and simply foget about okw design of high efficiency unit traded for caches, cherrypicking what you like.

    "Obers are overshadowed, they are rarely picked.."
    https://www.coh2.org/news/61913/luvnest-s-gcs-meta-game
    More like, they are not picked always, because the day a faction will need always a tier 3 unit to counter simple mainline is the day balance will be truly broken.

    "as they have such crap timing, coming so late its near impossible to get the ball rolling in terms of vet"
    Here's are good reason why obers, despite still useful and built, are situational.
    I don't see what volks have to do with their crap timing, their continuos nerfs since wfa relase without any compensating buff or price decrease and the fact that they will face as vetted bar bren squads that mop the floor even with low vet obers..
    But EVEN IF all those problems didn't exist, if obers had the perfect timing and a better veterancy scaling, okw won't simply have enough mp to field them in a sufficient number to cover a further drop in volks performances, they are elite, priced as elite, that need to babysitted because aoe explosives insta wipes are always there as the biggest cheesy threat against 4 man squads, that reinforce terribly slowly.
    Now do you realize how much of a gap the "hurr durr nerf volks much balance" will create here in the actual faction design ?

    It's the other way around, the smaller is the sample, the smaller is the skill gap,
    If you even bothered reading the page three you woud know that even among the 4 most skilled player (the skill gap should be minimal among those) okw performed incredibly poorly compared to other factions, winning only 33% of the matches.
    In the coh 2 tables the playerbase is wide, the skill gap between two opponents may be minimal or huge depending on the matchmaking.
    Meanwhile player competing at semi finals and finals roughly have same skills and as additional proof, if you watched those, no match was one sided or saw an easy victory.

    And again the fact that usf is so much picked completely breaks into pieces your point, the faction is and stays even in late game highly competitive, otherwise pros won't use it.
    OKW is ALSO the least picked faction by pros, but again this must be a coincidence and we should only look at how top players steamroll noobs in automatch at coh 2.org tables...

    "You have plenty of ways to counter rifles.... from the luchs, flaktrack, volks mixed with mg-34, carefully maneuvered sturms. Blobbing volks is just the easy way, as they are too cost efficient and inflict a much higher bleed on your opponent , in consistent engagements."

    And again OST could use 222, instead it has been given several infantry options to complment their long range mainline, from good team weapons to panzergrens.
    The infantry counter shouldn't be fuel based, becuase denying fuel means no comeback.

    Mg34 is the worst of all mg's, like we established up there.
    There is a huge difference between doability and possibility.
    Mg34 is simply too slow to set, unpack, pack and move to be used efficiently as offensive mg, and it doesn't make up by having good suppression, or dps.
    Consider that maxim is superior to mg34 and is getting a justified buff because of how much cons are team weapons reliant.
    But volks can't rely on mg34, starting from the fact that it comes late, and even as support barely suppress and deal damage.

    Hell, i told you three times already that sturms becomes utility by the 6th minute, where they have no scaling at all....
    They are not panzergrens, they don't get RA and dps bonuses with vetting on already good stats and RA becuase when a single model drop the efficiency of the squad drop of a 25%....

    Outnumbering the enemy is the only way to not be crushed that doesn't require fuel.

  • #136
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited July 2017

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    It's the other way around, the smaller is the sample, the smaller is the skill gap,
    If you even bothered reading the page three you woud know that even among the 4 most skilled player (the skill gap should be minimal among those) okw performed incredibly poorly compared to other factions, winning only 33% of the matches.

    You do realise that USF only came through on armour company call-in cheese. Something everyone can agree needs fixing. That doesn't show an accurate representation of the strength or viability of a faction in their matchups, it just highlights how certain commanders; like lend lease for SOV, will be exploited in competetive games.

    The problem with using professional tournament stats as evidence of balance, is that you fail to actually account for the fact that players will abuse whatever strategies they can to get the best chance of netting a win, repeatedly. Winning multiple times by massing m10's is hardly indicitive of good balance for USF as a whole.

    In the coh 2 tables the playerbase is wide, the skill gap between two opponents may be minimal or huge depending on the matchmaking.
    Meanwhile player competing at semi finals and finals roughly have same skills and as additional proof, if you watched those, no match was one sided or saw an easy victory.

    More than a few games were one-sided as the seeds saw players rated near the top like DEVM face off against players in the bottom, like Fahu. Yes they might all be top players, but the skill difference is still massive, as an example, DEVM trumped him with little effort in 3 games.

    And again the fact that usf is so much picked completely breaks into pieces your point, the faction is and stays even in late game highly competitive, otherwise pros won't use it.

    Or they would exploit a single commander to remain competetive. I'm not arguing here that USF is UP, it is probably; alongside OST, the highest skill required faction in terms of micro, as alot of its units require continues maneuvering, micro and abilities, more so than other factions as positioning really is key. But I will stick to the point of OKW being OP currently.

    When you see that against OKW, Armour company was picked 10 times, whilst the second most picked was Heavy cav at 4.... its a strong indication that players are abusing a single strategy, that abuse artificially inflates the game results.

    Same with SOV, lend lease is picked 12 times against OKW, whilst the second most used was guard motor at 3.

    Both strategies are propping up each faction, as their stock roster and most of their commanders are simply unviable against OKW in its current state.

    Mg34 is the worst of all mg's, like we established up there.
    There is a huge difference between doability and possibility.
    Mg34 is simply too slow to set, unpack, pack and move to be used efficiently as offensive mg, and it doesn't make up by having good suppression, or dps.

    Yet even the pro players used it consistently, its not a great mg like the 42, but it does its job in supressing inside a wide area. USF's weakness is limiting their infantry movement, which is why supression platforms like mg-34 and flaktrack are essential. Whether it needs buffs is for another thread, but you can't make out is unusable, as on ther other side USF has units like the pak howi that performs if not worse at its dedicated role.

  • #137
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268

    @Farra13 said:
    When you see that against OKW, Armour company was picked 10 times, whilst the second most picked was Heavy cav at 4.... its a strong indication that players are abusing a single strategy, that abuse artificially inflates the game results.

    Nail on the head IMO. Tells you everything you need to know about the US late game that Armor Company is THAT popular. I mean the commander literally has one of if not THE most useless ability in the entire game (Elite Crews) and is still totally viable at the highest level. That's all but exclusively because of how potent M10s are at filling the gaps in what USF can fight in the late game.

  • #138
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @Farra13 ha detto:

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    It's the other way around, the smaller is the sample, the smaller is the skill gap,
    If you even bothered reading the page three you woud know that even among the 4 most skilled player (the skill gap should be minimal among those) okw performed incredibly poorly compared to other factions, winning only 33% of the matches.

    You do realise that USF only came through on armour company call-in cheese. Something everyone can agree needs fixing. That doesn't show an accurate representation of the strength or viability of a faction in their matchups, it just highlights how certain commanders; like lend lease for SOV, will be exploited in competetive games.

    The problem with using professional tournament stats as evidence of balance, is that you fail to actually account for the fact that players will abuse whatever strategies they can to get the best chance of netting a win, repeatedly. Winning multiple times by massing m10's is hardly indicitive of good balance for USF as a whole.

    In the coh 2 tables the playerbase is wide, the skill gap between two opponents may be minimal or huge depending on the matchmaking.
    Meanwhile player competing at semi finals and finals roughly have same skills and as additional proof, if you watched those, no match was one sided or saw an easy victory.

    More than a few games were one-sided as the seeds saw players rated near the top like DEVM face off against players in the bottom, like Fahu. Yes they might all be top players, but the skill difference is still massive, as an example, DEVM trumped him with little effort in 3 games.

    And again the fact that usf is so much picked completely breaks into pieces your point, the faction is and stays even in late game highly competitive, otherwise pros won't use it.

    Or they would exploit a single commander to remain competetive. I'm not arguing here that USF is UP, it is probably; alongside OST, the highest skill required faction in terms of micro, as alot of its units require continues maneuvering, micro and abilities, more so than other factions as positioning really is key. But I will stick to the point of OKW being OP currently.

    When you see that against OKW, Armour company was picked 10 times, whilst the second most picked was Heavy cav at 4.... its a strong indication that players are abusing a single strategy, that abuse artificially inflates the game results.

    Same with SOV, lend lease is picked 12 times against OKW, whilst the second most used was guard motor at 3.

    Both strategies are propping up each faction, as their stock roster and most of their commanders are simply unviable against OKW in its current state.

    Mg34 is the worst of all mg's, like we established up there.
    There is a huge difference between doability and possibility.
    Mg34 is simply too slow to set, unpack, pack and move to be used efficiently as offensive mg, and it doesn't make up by having good suppression, or dps.

    Yet even the pro players used it consistently, its not a great mg like the 42, but it does its job in supressing inside a wide area. USF's weakness is limiting their infantry movement, which is why supression platforms like mg-34 and flaktrack are essential. Whether it needs buffs is for another thread, but you can't make out is unusable, as on ther other side USF has units like the pak howi that performs if not worse at its dedicated role.

    Semi finals and finals game were balanced, again, you don't bother even reading my posts.
    IT may be the call in cheese, but surely okw didn't show to perform better in the SU and even UKF matchups, where call in cheese is non existant.
    Overall okw showed to lack in performances, sompared to OST.

    Even if all those victories were given by cheese, and only okw lack cheese, the problem still stands and surely okw doesn't deserve a nerf, at least until we look at how it performs while said cheese has ben fixed.
    Again, i'm talking about finalists matches, not Devm/Luvnest vs some random guy new in competitive scene........

    "I'm not arguing here that USF is UP, it is probably; alongside OST, the highest skill required faction in terms of micro, as alot of its units require continues maneuvering, micro and abilities, more so than other factions as positioning really is key. But I will stick to the point of OKW being OP currently."

    The game isn't balanced on microing requirements.
    At least you admitted you just stick to the OKW OP teory just because you want/like/fanboys/whatever even if all evidences are against such theory, that's a good start.

    Given the price, the mg34 isn't UP.
    This doesn't change the fact that it isn't meant nor effective to be used as offensive mg, given it's low stats.

    You still gave me no option to support volks AI that isn't a vehicle, something that has 0 scaling in mid game or good reliable team weapons.

  • #139
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,791
    > @Vipper said:
    > Cons with PPsh lose allot of far DPS but by range 15 the PPsh has better DPS.

    Thank you, i was misinformed thank you and @TheLeveler83 for setting me right
  • #140
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 687
    @thedarkarmadillo

    No problem you will probably return the favor at some point. ;)
  • #141
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Semi finals and finals game were balanced, again, you don't bother even reading my posts.
    IT may be the call in cheese, but surely okw didn't show to perform better in the SU and even UKF matchups, where call in cheese is non existant.

    Did you not see the point about lendlease?

    Same with SOV, lend lease is picked 12 times against OKW, whilst the second most used was guard motor at 3.

    UKF special weapons reg (IS Boys rifles, Weapon half track, Croc) picked 10 times, with the second most picked being mobile assualt at 2...

    Call-in cheese is the only way players can fight OKW currently, as the low bleed on volks allows players to apply consistent pressure and still tech, whilst the allies are forced to either invest more resources in units to being able to trade evenly but fall behind on tech, or get pushed off the map and have no income to purchse the higher tier units they've unlocked.

    Call-in's having no tech-requirements means players can match the OKW agression and still get high tier units out. I hate call-in abuse, as I see is as pure cheese. But if players are relying on it as the only way to fight OKW, that's a rather large indication that things aren't right.

    Even if all those victories were given by cheese, and only okw lack cheese, the problem still stands and surely okw doesn't deserve a nerf, at least until we look at how it performs while said cheese has ben fixed.

    Alot of the worse stock cheese like penal/guard blobs, comet spam, 1919 blobs were cut in the recent community patches. Since OST is seen as the gold-standard of balance by the mod-team, they were making adjustments based on those matchups. Problem is OKW was already the stronger of the two Axis factions.

    Removing the main balance problems of the allies exposed some serious problems with their stock rosters, but put them on good terms with OST, who still have their own problems like abbysmal tanks. OKW however recieved no nerfs alongside the allies in the last patches, instead it was indirectly buffed with the horrendous superiority of the allied infantry being taken down a peg, something they struggled with as they had poor supression platforms to handle them.

    Again, i'm talking about finalists matches, not Devm/Luvnest vs some random guy new in competitive scene........

    Then look at the matchups, DEVM picked USF 3 times, and went armour every time... Luvnest went USF twice, armour both times. The only allied commanders picked by those 4 were USF armour, SOV lend lease and Counterattack and UKF special weapons regiment. All call-in related.

    "I'm not arguing here that USF is UP, it is probably; alongside OST, the highest skill required faction in terms of micro, as alot of its units require continues maneuvering, micro and abilities, more so than other factions as positioning really is key. But I will stick to the point of OKW being OP currently."

    The game isn't balanced on microing requirements.

    No but it does play a significant part, OST requires intensive unit positioning to perofrm well, USF requires alot of flanking and maneuvering to be effective. SOV, UKF and OKW are all more brute force, direct head on engagements.

    USF might appear weak to newer players, but rewards good micro by being able to literally steamroll and opponent,.

    At least you admitted you just stick to the OKW OP teory just because you want/like/fanboys/whatever even if all evidences are against such theory, that's a good start.

    Hardly any evidence against that theory. Most of the community is pointing out how OKW is overperforming, the win rates across games are glaringly obvious. The fact players rely on call-in abuse to have a chance says alot. I mean hell, just play a few games as SOV and USF against them, its becomes glaringly obvious they are very strong right now, easily the most powerful factions as they rule both the early game, light vehicle phase and late game.

    Given the price, the mg34 isn't UP.
    This doesn't change the fact that it isn't meant nor effective to be used as offensive mg, given it's low stats.

    A supression platform is still a supression platform, it does its job. Its cheap and has little upkeep, so its not like its deadweight.

    You still gave me no option to support volks AI that isn't a vehicle, something that has 0 scaling in mid game or good reliable team weapons.

    I did, as I reiterated, mg-34 is still viable, as is sturms as their original role as a flanking unit. If leig had smoke, like it should, that would do alot too. I'm not just talking about OKW being OP, it still has a load of issues I can recognise, from unreliable anti garrison, no smoke, Obers hitting the field too late, leig being pretty awful, Rak unreliablity.

  • #142
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017
    I did, as I reiterated, mg-34 is still viable, as is sturms as their original role as a flanking unit. If leig had smoke, like it should, that would do alot too. I'm not just talking about OKW being OP, it still has a load of issues I can recognise, from unreliable anti garrison, no smoke, Obers hitting the field too late, leig being pretty awful, Rak unreliablity.

    0 scaling sturm aren't an option.
    They are inconsistent except early game until vet 2 comes, but vet 2 never comes unless you use shrecks with them, which make them useless as flanking unit in first place.

    Mg34 is the worst mg in game, I even showed you stats, but you keep saying the same thing like a broken machine,
    No, it can't be used as support, 50 cal can, maxim can, mg34 can't....

    A suppression platform that barely suppress and has such low dps has no use offensively.
    The dps and suppression fades compared to 50 cal, which instead can actually support efficiently an assault with such low set up time and good dps/suppression.

    "Doing it's job" yeah, in defensive role...

    Win rates are worth looking at only when noobs play, but if pro plays it's only cuz cheese....
    Again, even if all these defeats were given by cheese from all factions, you still have no single data telling me that okw at the same time would have steamrolled everything otherwise.
    Players will always use the most powerful tool they have, it doesn't mean they NEED it...

    Find those win rates where okw steamroll everything, I'm curious.
  • #143
    1 year ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 237

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    @mrdjjag81 ha detto:
    Its the damn cheap reinforce cost of volks, combained with the forward retreatpoint that make them so OP. Not to forget the free molotov package they have makes at least the maxim worthless with its usless supression it got a while ago. No other Allied basic inf gets free granades/molotov so why should them.

    Okw gets nothing for free.
    It pays 2 trucks (30 fuel) to get access to tier 1/2 and tier 3.
    Usf pays the same for side teching.

    Both factions pays their additional fuel.

    Ost pays with battlephases.

    When you guys will understand it ?

    There was not the cost that wear an issue, its that it is to effective to reinforce volks from such a short distance once the truck is seted up. Theres no way u can gain the uperhand then, probably if you have an USF in youre team with an ambulance. However, this being adressed in the fall balance prev so it want be such a big problem anymore. Excactly what i stated and hope for. Also the Maxim get a bit better on holding of blobs, im fine with those changes.

  • #144
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @mrdjjag81 ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > @mrdjjag81 ha detto:
    > Its the damn cheap reinforce cost of volks, combained with the forward retreatpoint that make them so OP. Not to forget the free molotov package they have makes at least the maxim worthless with its usless supression it got a while ago. No other Allied basic inf gets free granades/molotov so why should them.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Okw gets nothing for free.
    > It pays 2 trucks (30 fuel) to get access to tier 1/2 and tier 3.
    > Usf pays the same for side teching.
    >
    > Both factions pays their additional fuel.
    >
    > Ost pays with battlephases.
    >
    > When you guys will understand it ?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > There was not the cost that wear an issue, its that it is to effective to reinforce volks from such a short distance once the truck is seted up. Theres no way u can gain the uperhand then, probably if you have an USF in youre team with an ambulance. However, this being adressed in the fall balance prev so it want be such a big problem anymore. Excactly what i stated and hope for. Also the Maxim get a bit better on holding of blobs, im fine with those changes.

    They pay for everything, frb ability, medics.
    Usf gets for free major frp and has an aura based healing that is much more efficient than a few models having to physically reach and heal the enemy.

    At the same time, a static hq means only one thing, arty, arty, arty.

    Tier 0 mortars, pack howie, off map.
    There is nothing far riskier than having a frp set too near the frontline, and most of the players set it in the base.
  • #145
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Win rates are worth looking at only when noobs play, but if pro plays it's only cuz cheese....

    Who are these noobs? You mean the top ten players on each gamemode, across each faction? The one's I keep highlighting on the coh.org leaderboard? The fact that OKW have significantly higher win rates than other factions in the hands of the same top players?

    Again, even if all these defeats were given by cheese from all factions, you still have no single data telling me that okw at the same time would have steamrolled everything otherwise.
    Players will always use the most powerful tool they have, it doesn't mean they NEED it...

    No, there is a big difference between top level players on automatch, and professional players vying for a cash prize in a tournament. Or do you really think people will play USF armour m10 spam every game for enjoyment?

    Find those win rates where okw steamroll everything, I'm curious.

    I already have, you just cannot seem to accept them.

    What I do not understand though, is that you say volks have to remain as potent as they are now; regardless of cost, because they have nothing to back them up. Now, yes the mg and leig need some tweaks, but OKW has the best AI light vehicle currently in the luchs, the flaktrack being a very good contender in the right hands. They don't struggle in terms of AI, even if volks were nerfed into a more defensive mainline.

  • #146
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @Farra13 ha detto:

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Win rates are worth looking at only when noobs play, but if pro plays it's only cuz cheese....

    Who are these noobs? You mean the top ten players on each gamemode, across each faction? The one's I keep highlighting on the coh.org leaderboard? The fact that OKW have significantly higher win rates than other factions in the hands of the same top players?

    Again, even if all these defeats were given by cheese from all factions, you still have no single data telling me that okw at the same time would have steamrolled everything otherwise.
    Players will always use the most powerful tool they have, it doesn't mean they NEED it...

    No, there is a big difference between top level players on automatch, and professional players vying for a cash prize in a tournament. Or do you really think people will play USF armour m10 spam every game for enjoyment?

    Find those win rates where okw steamroll everything, I'm curious.

    I already have, you just cannot seem to accept them.

    What I do not understand though, is that you say volks have to remain as potent as they are now; regardless of cost, because they have nothing to back them up. Now, yes the mg and leig need some tweaks, but OKW has the best AI light vehicle currently in the luchs, the flaktrack being a very good contender in the right hands. They don't struggle in terms of AI, even if volks were nerfed into a more defensive mainline.

    And the fact that the top ten player get matched also win MUCH less skilled players, unlike gcs, where the skill base is roughly similar ?
    Again, you claim skill gap was too big in gcs (and keep in mind i'm talking about finalists), but the automatch matchmaking including whole playerbase hasn't got this problem ?
    This is clearly cherrypicking.

    So no, i see no data regarding OKW opness, maybe link ?
    To be fair, a lot of things you said are either not true (volks having an advantage in long range, having three stg's..) or simply nonsense (gcs players using any possible cheese but nobody picks okw despite being OP), and you provided little to no data or links to support your theories

    "No, there is a big difference between top level players on automatch, and professional players vying for a cash prize in a tournament. Or do you really think people will play USF armour m10 spam every game for enjoyment?"

    Another proof that m10 spam isn't required to win, but that is just a safer way to abuse call in and secure a victory that could still be gained normally.
    And why if OKW is so OP why it has been rarely picked as axis faction compared to OST if those guys wants so desperately to win by using any avaiable cheese and OP stuff ?

    "What I do not understand though, is that you say volks have to remain as potent as they are now; regardless of cost"

    Again, no, i said volks should remain as that and their price increased, and stg be more expensive and more powerful.
    The only buff would be stg not having such an underwhelming weapon profile, but more similar performances compared to a bar.
    So straight up nerf volks with a price increase + making them more reliable against late game mainlines despite still being inferior, with a price increase and reinforce to negate efficient spamming (that won't be needed anymore to compete with late game rifles and is, which are the main reason of heavy volks builds).
    Volks will still be inferior, they early mid game until stg untouched, rifles won't lose any early game power, but will be able to efficiently trade with volks like actual volks can do with them right now.
    Basically knowing that rifles, while being advantaged, won't dominate volks with double bar or be advantaged in an equad fight with 1 bar like it happens right now, won't push for the players to require a big number of troops to balance it.

    More than that you said that volks trade too efficiently, rising their mp cost without any buff on the unit itself to force unti preservation on the okw side and allow usf to mp starve the enemy is quite a good advantage, all for having more powerful yet expensive late game stg, that will finally break the is/bar blobs domination that caused volks spam as response in the first place.

    As i said, luchs is a vehicle, and no faction needs vehicles in this game.
    The whole concept of the comeback in coh 2 is that you can thoretically use mp to fill any role at any moment of the match, especially early mid game.
    Cons balance it with good offensive support weapons.
    Grens same in defense and panzergrens in offensive role.
    Mid game okw is just volks, no good team weapons, no chance sturms properly scale without shreck (which turn them into at squad so isn't an option either).
    If volks were nerfed you would see panzerfus, than, after panzerfus nerf, kubel spam, because that's how the nerfing machine works (look at maxim nerf and lend lease penals meta, ironically i was there writing why maxim had to be changed differently rather than straight up nerf it, and they were all "piss off maxim spammer", now we see the results) when people blindly look at a balance issue without a clear idea of how those creates, and without understanding how changes will affect it.
    You didn't even remember how much stg volks get, are you sure you still remember into details the faction ?
    For example, you don't know that volks nerf will (and it will happen) make obers even more rare because of the new mp bleed, that will require much more efficient ways to stand in mid game, aka some new pfussies-kubel meta rises, that will make even crazier build orders that surely won't save mp for a tier 3 unit.

    So, to sum up, it can go this way:

    "rising their mp cost without any buff on the unit itself to force unti preservation on the okw side and allow usf to mp starve the enemy is quite a good advantage, all for having more powerful yet expensive late game stg, that will finally break the is/bar blobs domination that caused volks spam as response in the first place."

    OR create some new stupid meta-spam-cheese because of the blind nerf hatchet...

  • #147
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @Farra13 ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > Win rates are worth looking at only when noobs play, but if pro plays it's only cuz cheese....
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Who are these noobs? You mean the top ten players on each gamemode, across each faction? The one's I keep highlighting on the coh.org leaderboard? The fact that OKW have significantly higher win rates than other factions in the hands of the same top players?
    >
    > Again, even if all these defeats were given by cheese from all factions, you still have no single data telling me that okw at the same time would have steamrolled everything otherwise.
    > Players will always use the most powerful tool they have, it doesn't mean they NEED it...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > No, there is a big difference between top level players on automatch, and professional players vying for a cash prize in a tournament. Or do you really think people will play USF armour m10 spam every game for enjoyment?
    >
    > Find those win rates where okw steamroll everything, I'm curious.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I already have, you just cannot seem to accept them.
    >
    > What I do not understand though, is that you say volks have to remain as potent as they are now; regardless of cost, because they have nothing to back them up. Now, yes the mg and leig need some tweaks, but OKW has the best AI light vehicle currently in the luchs, the flaktrack being a very good contender in the right hands. They don't struggle in terms of AI, even if volks were nerfed into a more defensive mainline.

    Still waiting
  • #148
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    And the fact that the top ten player get matched also win MUCH less skilled players, unlike gcs, where the skill base is roughly similar ?
    Again, you claim skill gap was too big in gcs (and keep in mind i'm talking about finalists), but the automatch matchmaking including whole playerbase hasn't got this problem ?

    Because the win ratios in the gcs were based on 100% call-in cheese, as that's the highest chance of securing a win for a cash prize? That will skew the perception of balance if you look solely at win-rates.

    Whereas, do you really think the leaderboards will have people playing things like lendlease or m10 spam every game? Possible, but unlikely.

    So no, i see no data regarding OKW opness, maybe link ?

    Alright, plain and simple. here's the home page link. https://www.coh2.org/. I suggest you look at the leaderboards, and compare how OKW are double digit win streaks in all categories to the other factions.

    If that's not a strong correlation, I'm not really sure what else to say.

    And why if OKW is so OP why it has been rarely picked as axis faction compared to OST if those guys wants so desperately to win by using any avaiable cheese and OP stuff ?

    Because OST are far better equipped to deal with call-ins. The whole GCS was based in the call-in meta, OST having commanders like mobile defense and lightning war makes them the ideal counter.

    As i said, luchs is a vehicle, and no faction needs vehicles in this game.

    Except OST or UKF, who you know, both have their whole offensive power based in vehicles.

    "rising their mp cost without any buff on the unit itself to force unti preservation on the okw side and allow usf to mp starve the enemy is quite a good advantage, all for having more powerful yet expensive late game stg, that will finally break the is/bar blobs domination that caused volks spam as response in the first place."

    Not at all, nerfing their performance to bring them in line with their current cost would put them back into their original role. A mainline whose job is not to match rifles pound for pound, but screen your more elite units and provide field presence.

  • #149
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @Farra13 ha detto:

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    And the fact that the top ten player get matched also win MUCH less skilled players, unlike gcs, where the skill base is roughly similar ?
    Again, you claim skill gap was too big in gcs (and keep in mind i'm talking about finalists), but the automatch matchmaking including whole playerbase hasn't got this problem ?

    Because the win ratios in the gcs were based on 100% call-in cheese, as that's the highest chance of securing a win for a cash prize? That will skew the perception of balance if you look solely at win-rates.

    Whereas, do you really think the leaderboards will have people playing things like lendlease or m10 spam every game? Possible, but unlikely.

    So no, i see no data regarding OKW opness, maybe link ?

    Alright, plain and simple. here's the home page link. https://www.coh2.org/. I suggest you look at the leaderboards, and compare how OKW are double digit win streaks in all categories to the other factions.

    If that's not a strong correlation, I'm not really sure what else to say.

    And why if OKW is so OP why it has been rarely picked as axis faction compared to OST if those guys wants so desperately to win by using any avaiable cheese and OP stuff ?

    Because OST are far better equipped to deal with call-ins. The whole GCS was based in the call-in meta, OST having commanders like mobile defense and lightning war makes them the ideal counter.

    As i said, luchs is a vehicle, and no faction needs vehicles in this game.

    Except OST or UKF, who you know, both have their whole offensive power based in vehicles.

    "rising their mp cost without any buff on the unit itself to force unti preservation on the okw side and allow usf to mp starve the enemy is quite a good advantage, all for having more powerful yet expensive late game stg, that will finally break the is/bar blobs domination that caused volks spam as response in the first place."

    Not at all, nerfing their performance to bring them in line with their current cost would put them back into their original role. A mainline whose job is not to match rifles pound for pound, but screen your more elite units and provide field presence.

    What i see in coh2.org
    Highest win streak: SU - Refero: +29
    Faction with the highest number of positive streak in top 10: Brits, no negative streaks
    Faction with the highest number of over +10 positive streaks (as result of OPness) in top ten: USF - So rim e, Von Asten, Isildur, Brits - Paula, Deep Dark, Isildur

    This is a strong correlation ? or i'm missing something ?

    And...a lot of people actually play lend lease and call in abuse in automatch...

    OKW here excels in nothing, but again this is far from being empirical data, otherwise some could argue that usf performs better than okw.

    So OKW is more OP but OST is better equipped against cheese, which again is another evidence that is the other way around, OST is much more competitive than OKW right now, so choosed for it's versatility in terms of tools (smoke, flame, light vehicles option, infantry options..) okw lacks.
    Are you joking ? Mobile defense is basically same stuff of other doctrines like panzer tactician and osttruppen and puma, which is OKW core unit, so, at least you don't want to bring in the opness of the command panzer 4 (which won't surprise me at this point), given the opness of okw any competent player would take OKW op over OST and mobile warfare.
    Lightining war is g43, loiter, relief... nothing game breaking, but again why would a player use grens and g43 if uber op volks with stg steamroll everything ?

    1) Talking about the offensive infantry options of an offensive oriented faction----> Bring in the only 2 defensive factions in game.
    2) Bring in the only 2 defensive factions in game----> those two factions have dedicated cqb units like commandos and panzergrens, efficent mg's unlike mg34 and actually efficient and viable AT infantry held weaponry like the not overpriced version of shrecks and piats.

    So no, it's simply not true, vickers and mg42 are just as slow as mg34, but have good insane suppression and dps, AND YOU TOLD ME TO USE mg34, when you claim those two factions have nothing to support their offensive but vehicles ?
    Shocks, ranger, para, commando, panzergrens...nondoc or not, they have dedicated offensive options nontheless, even defensive one, all except obers that comes late and are mainly defensive.....

    You can't read right ?..
    I already said their original role was goddam cheap AT infantry, want shreck back to volks and suppression kubel to do anti tank ?

    This point would be actually valid if obers were more viable mp wise and tier 0.
    They aren't.
    What the hell is supposed to use at early mid game okw to not be steamrolled that isn't vehicles (because no, any offensive factions has viable offensive infantry options in game, and even defensive ones) ?
    The overpriced version of panzergrens that drop like flies after 6 mins, or the kubelcrap that gets a single rifle nade to be wiped ?

    Increasing mp cost is the only way to make volks bleed, and buffing stg is the only way to not see 6 of them in mid game in professional tournaments... as every player knows that, given an equal number of volks and rifles, volks will be rekt so hard that you will lack infantry field presence, and they naturally invest in mp.
    The obers can't be anywhere, it's not an excuse for volks to be cheap crap like they are now.
    They either get more consistency in their stg upgrade and a bigger mp cost, or you are always gonna see tons of them, regardless of obers timing, reinforce cost, and reinforce time, all broken.

    More than that, rifles have a total late game dominancy that the german tanks don't have thx to overbuffed (more buff soon) allies tank destroyers...
    While i like the fact that no faction has a clear advantage in a specific period of the match as the gaps gets smaller it makes zero sense for them to get these late game buff while according to you okw has to suffer with nonscaling infantry for 3/4 of the match because "IT'S THE DESIGN HURR DURR"

    Usf wasn't designed to have a tank destroyer that could get 3 hits from a panzer 4 (look at fall patch) and be still alive, but hey cherrypicking is the key, design is important only when we talk about rifle dominancy and volks as meatshield, but not when we talk about kubel suppression and allies late game, that is fixes !!11!1

  • #150
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Faction with the highest number of over +10 positive streaks (as result of OPness) in top ten: USF - So rim e, Von Asten, Isildur, Brits - Paula, Deep Dark, Isildur

    Not that I really understand what your saying here, I presume your looking at solely 1v1. But in terms of double digit win streaks across all modes (1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4).
    UKF - 6
    USF - 5
    SOV - 5
    OST - 3
    OKW - 15

    Perhaps you could claim that, that is for all intents and purposes "cherry picking". But if OKW is consistently scoring those kind of winstreaks across multiple gamemodes when used by the best players, thats' either strong correlation, or a big coincedence.

    1) Talking about the offensive infantry options of an offensive oriented faction----> Bring in the only 2 defensive factions in game.

    You said, and I quote "no faction needs vehicles in this game", I simply pointed out that that's definitely not correct.

    You then added "the whole concept of the comeback in coh 2 is that you can thoretically use mp to fill any role at any moment of the match, especially early mid game."

    So if Volks AI power has to be enough to go toe to toe with vetted rifles, because they can't rely on vehicles like the luchs, because as you said earlier. "The infantry counter shouldn't be fuel based, becuase denying fuel means no comeback."

    What is the point in Obers? Aren't Obers your MP based counter to infantry that aren't based an fuel?

    2) Bring in the only 2 defensive factions in game----> those two factions have dedicated cqb units like commandos and panzergrens, efficent mg's unlike mg34 and actually efficient and viable AT infantry held weaponry like the not overpriced version of shrecks and piats.

    Funny, could have sworn Sturms were cqb units. That Raks were available from t0 as an at option, that OKW has access to non-doc elite ai specialists in Obers,

    What the hell is supposed to use at early mid game okw to not be steamrolled that isn't vehicles (because no, any offensive factions has viable offensive infantry options in game, and even defensive ones) ?

    Isn't that why the entire community is agreement about fixing Obers timing? Or should we just make Volks quasi-rifles and cut them altogether? As that's what I gather from you wanting to buff their dps, and up their cost to match. What would be the point in Obers if OKW already have a solid Ai unit in their mainline?

    More than that, rifles have a total late game dominancy that the german tanks don't have thx to overbuffed (more buff soon) allies tank destroyers...

    I'm not disagreeing with allied td's being overbuffed, but rifles don't dominate late game anymore. They equip massed zooks, you counter with infantry, they equip bars or 1919, you counter with tanks.

    It makes zero sense for them to be the best starting infantry and increase the gap until late game, when they steamroll everything when they are getting better and more durable tanks.

    Because they sacrifice any non-doctrinal rocket artillery, any tanks with armour over 160 or more than 640 health to have the best infantry. OKW have access to not only rocket arty, but non-doc elite infantry, a p4 with over 234 armour, panthers and a stock super heavy. Yet you want them to have infantry that can match rifles as well?

  • #151
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @Farra13 ha detto:

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Faction with the highest number of over +10 positive streaks (as result of OPness) in top ten: USF - So rim e, Von Asten, Isildur, Brits - Paula, Deep Dark, Isildur

    Not that I really understand what your saying here, I presume your looking at solely 1v1. But in terms of double digit win streaks across all modes (1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4).
    UKF - 6
    USF - 5
    SOV - 5
    OST - 3
    OKW - 15

    Perhaps you could claim that, that is for all intents and purposes "cherry picking". But if OKW is consistently scoring those kind of winstreaks across multiple gamemodes when used by the best players, thats' either strong correlation, or a big coincedence.

    1) Talking about the offensive infantry options of an offensive oriented faction----> Bring in the only 2 defensive factions in game.

    You said, and I quote "no faction needs vehicles in this game", I simply pointed out that that's definitely not correct.

    You then added "the whole concept of the comeback in coh 2 is that you can thoretically use mp to fill any role at any moment of the match, especially early mid game."

    So if Volks AI power has to be enough to go toe to toe with vetted rifles, because they can't rely on vehicles like the luchs, because as you said earlier. "The infantry counter shouldn't be fuel based, becuase denying fuel means no comeback."

    What is the point in Obers? Aren't Obers your MP based counter to infantry that aren't based an fuel?

    2) Bring in the only 2 defensive factions in game----> those two factions have dedicated cqb units like commandos and panzergrens, efficent mg's unlike mg34 and actually efficient and viable AT infantry held weaponry like the not overpriced version of shrecks and piats.

    Funny, could have sworn Sturms were cqb units. That Raks were available from t0 as an at option, that OKW has access to non-doc elite ai specialists in Obers,

    What the hell is supposed to use at early mid game okw to not be steamrolled that isn't vehicles (because no, any offensive factions has viable offensive infantry options in game, and even defensive ones) ?

    Isn't that why the entire community is agreement about fixing Obers timing? Or should we just make Volks quasi-rifles and cut them altogether? As that's what I gather from you wanting to buff their dps, and up their cost to match. What would be the point in Obers if OKW already have a solid Ai unit in their mainline?

    More than that, rifles have a total late game dominancy that the german tanks don't have thx to overbuffed (more buff soon) allies tank destroyers...

    I'm not disagreeing with allied td's being overbuffed, but rifles don't dominate late game anymore. They equip massed zooks, you counter with infantry, they equip bars or 1919, you counter with tanks.

    It makes zero sense for them to be the best starting infantry and increase the gap until late game, when they steamroll everything when they are getting better and more durable tanks.

    Because they sacrifice any non-doctrinal rocket artillery, any tanks with armour over 160 or more than 640 health to have the best infantry. OKW have access to not only rocket arty, but non-doc elite infantry, a p4 with over 234 armour, panthers and a stock super heavy. Yet you want them to have infantry that can match rifles as well?

    3 pages discussing about gcs and factions performances, claiming that 1vs1 gcs is influenced by too much factors to be a good example.
    Than you come with teamgames that are unbalanced since 2013, what kind of stupid evasive manuver is that.
    Obiviously teamgames are unbalanced and there are too much factors to count in, the infinite possibilities of matchups, the different skills of each players, how okw infantry and OSt team weapons synergise.
    Balance always shifted to 1vs1, the main mode, the goddam competitive mode, where OKW doesn't show any uberpositive stats, but the opposite.

    "A 4 team of okw is advantaged..." YOU DON'T SAY !?!?!?!

    Each faction need to be able to stand on it's own, and okw, whatever is the reason (call ins/cheese or not) showed to be unable to do that in gcs, and among the players with best performance and most experience in competitive scene that's empyrical data.

    BTW: the highest win rate in all modes is SU right now, 29

    "You said, and I quote "no faction needs vehicles in this game", I simply pointed out that that's definitely not correct."

    This is incorrect,
    Weak and or defensive infantry has good teamweapons and dedicated cqb squads, like OST, TIER 2 SU and UKF.
    Powerful infantry has powerful infantry.
    More than that, i explained you why, EVEN THOSE DEFENSIVE FACTIONS, have mp based offensive options.
    Playing around the first point and completely forget about the second, for which you brought up a completely different argument is mean.

    "You then added "the whole concept of the comeback in coh 2 is that you can thoretically use mp to fill any role at any moment of the match, especially early mid game."

    So if Volks AI power has to be enough to go toe to toe with vetted rifles, because they can't rely on vehicles like the luchs, because as you said earlier. "The infantry counter shouldn't be fuel based, becuase denying fuel means no comeback."

    What is the point in Obers? Aren't Obers your MP based counter to infantry that aren't based an fuel?"

    Breaking news: Obers arrives in full late game, not: "EARLY-MID GAME".

    Funny, could have sworn i told you that sturm are unable to vet up before the genera firepower increase and they can't be a reliable mid game cqb squad.
    I have a screen of a 28 infantry kills sturm still at vet 1...
    With panzergrens at 28 kills you are almost at OST vet 2
    Or post me a link of them being used over the 8 minute mark as panzergrens do.

    "Isn't that why the entire community is agreement about fixing Obers timing? Or should we just make Volks quasi-rifles and cut them altogether? As that's what I gather from you wanting to buff their dps, and up their cost to match. What would be the point in Obers if OKW already have a solid Ai unit in their mainline?"

    So rangers/paratroopers are completely useless because of rifles being good ?
    LOL no elites will always have a role, just like rangers, para, shock...obers will always have a role in engaging stuff that would melt volks.
    Because volks equipping two stg statswise similar to bar, aka inferior rifles, won't absolutely make volks able to beat rangers, shocks..or even rifles in equal combat coditions.....
    The volks or ober is bullshit lol.
    So g43 grenadiers exclude panzergrens.
    Vickers k sappers exclude bren's ?

    "I'm not disagreeing with allied td's being overbuffed, but rifles don't dominate late game anymore. They equip massed zooks, you counter with infantry, they equip bars or 1919, you counter with tanks."

    Nice sentence, I couldn't say it any better.
    Panzer 4, just as it's good against other generalist, it's quite underwhelming as AI tank, and has no match he sherman in AI power.
    Fact is, ironically, rifles are so good that they overshadow sherman even with he shells.
    Another fact is, that de facto nothing matches late game rifles, but tanks are too busy getting rekt by allies (once) paper tanks and tank destroyers, and any good player gets double bar and tank destroyers and melt both infantry and tanks, so lol no.

    "any tanks with armour over 160"

    That is the point, usf tanks can't be paper if any tank can be penetrated anyway by 125 fuel tank destroyers.

    I think they overbuffed tank destroyers too, but i don't see the problem right there.
    The strong late game, weak early vice versa thing was stupid to begin with.
    All factions should differ in playstyles, not power per each period of the match.

    The idea of fbp jackson is actually good (but is too accurate, accuracy should be toned down).

    While tank destroyers require adjustments, i have no problem in having the jackson being able to take a punch.
    But as much as axis tanks lose their dominance in tank warfare, goddam late game insta wipe allies wfa blobs has to be matched, nonsense that you should require a 400 mp unit to counter a mainline 30 mp more expensive than yours when a 145 fuel td can melt panther from kiting range.

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