[OKW][ALL] Is late game OKW OP? How should OKW change?

#1
3 months ago
SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 353
edited July 19 in Balance Feedback

There've been some hints and grumbling from some of the community modders and people in general (I've seen it in team game crowd) that this is the case and that the former want to implement nerfs sometime down the line.

I'd like to just point out that OKW by design are suppose to have a good late-game. If you do not take advantage of your faction's prime time/strengths then that is of your own doing. Not to say you shouldn't stand a chance at all, far from it - that is something that makes COH2 so much better than SC2 for example. But I want the distinctions to be..distinct.

I'd also like to point out OKW aren't particularly fun to play for most people. Playing OST you at least get to choose how you lose. With OKW it's done for you. They are awkward in unit composition/abilites, lack basic counters, have a dodgy tech system etc etc. So if reaching 20 mins in a game having only relied on AT guns (far more than your opponent 9/10) and that sole Panther you get out is somehow OP? I don't know how to react.

This must be a thing in 4v4's but in 1v1's I do not see it? Why is surviving and then playing to your faction's strength OP? Or is getting to the late game too easy? I don't want a COH2 where a KT is impossible to get out, and when it gets out, it gets murdered by OP Allied tank destroyers - another thing that makes me question OKW late game prowess.

Is it the Vet? That is a core differentiating mechanic I want kept noticable. If you get a unit to vet 5 it should be rewarding. A lot of OKW units do not see vet 5 to begin with. Some do nothing/were lazily implemented like JTiger/PAK43.

Is it the Volks? Yes they over perform against Cons but certainly do not against Riflemen/Tommies (that dps in green cover :S)

Maybe it's that MG34 that's grinding people's gears :D

What's wrong and what do people want? Buffs / Nerfs? What is the OKW philosophy? Their strengths and weaknesses?

Balancing is hard. (But it shouldn't be done in a vacuum).

«13456

Comments

  • #2
    3 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,364

    Some vet 5 abilities/bonuses need to be toned down. ST44 need to change (as most WFA that need to go closes to EFA).

  • #3
    3 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 615

    Except OKW have so many power spike moments throughout a match that it allows them to absolutely hammer their opponents in certain time windows, easily putting the match into their favour.

    First your opening with sturms and kubels can be so agressive, only certain maps garrisons will really be able to prevent the opening minutes from being in your advantage.

    Next is when your first truck goes down, OKW float muni almost as bad as SOV, the minute the med/mech truck is up, all the volks squads will be toting stgs 30 seconds after, allowing them to stomp rifles, cons and penals, at least for a couple mins until rifles start to fill out with bars and penals reach vet 2-3.

    After that its when either the luchs/flaktrack hits the field, especially as the luchs in the right hands can be top dog compared to the new stuart/t-70 in terms of killing power.

    Then its the weakest period at about 10-15 mins in between a panther/jp4 hitting the field, holding together here is the hardest part as the allied mediums have somewhat an ability to free roam without competetion, even with a pair of raks or even the rare puma on the field. Though if confident, OKW players do skip t3 and got straight for a super heavy.

    Finally its a race to grab a KT. When that hits the field, only really Brits can honestly be offensive, SOV and USF are locked in by the pressure having that or a JT on the field and are forced to be defensive, then its just a case of the OKW player keeping everything together and its likely to be over as long as he keeps the choke on.

    The final problem that really gives them a current advantage throughout the match is that though penals and rifles were justfiably nerfed to give OST some breathing room, volks were inadvertedly buffed. For their current cost, they will happily trade and easily contest everything but vet 3 double bar rifles, vet 3 penals and double bren IS, even then they can still at least tie them down and fend them off with cheeky incendiray nades. They are far too cost efficient, meaning bleeding OKW is a real pain, hence why they never suffer mp problems unless they are throwing squads at a bofors.

    Overall i'm not saying they are like the previous UKF or USF were, the lack of smoke alone causes so many problems, but OKW are definitely on par with UKF currently as the top faction. WIth the upcoming maxim changes, I do think we will see OKW likely ruling the upcoming GCS, but I guess it is wait and see.

  • #4
    3 months ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 353
    edited April 20

    @Farra13 Interesting balance points. WFA OP'ness rearing it's ugly head again.

    You're right they do have spikes, in both directions I'd argue. In your kubel sturms example it can go tits up so/just as easily though. And in that case it's almost GG already. Well it definitely feels it when you lose those sturms. Part of me almost likes that as a (most likely inadvertent) design choice for representing 1944-45 Axis forces + Asymmetric gameplay. Do others like it?

    I have to question your statement saying that "OKW float muni almost as bad as SOV" - I'm gonna say it; is factually not correct.

  • #5
    3 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 615
    edited April 20

    @SquishyMuffin said:

    I have to question your statement saying that "OKW float muni almost as bad as SOV" - I'm gonna say it; is factually not correct.

    I did say almost, especially compared to OST, USF and UKF. OKW lacks any real muni sinks, volks stg are the only really mandatory upgrade and thats a low sixty. After that you've got the shrek upgrade, but most players take another rak in lieu as its more effective, Obers come out considerably later, if at all and that leaves?

    Your basically free to use the cheap mines, snares and toss incendiaries at will, there aren't any crucial upgrades or pintles as you have limited armour that have them available (p4, panther and kt).

    UKF/USF are busy equipping their infantry and relying on muni cost smoke abilities, ukf medkits/flare upgrade, tank commanders, skirts for m20, grenades etc.

    And we all know that to OST, muni is like stardust.

  • #6
    3 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 615
    edited April 20

    Excuse the double post.

    @SquishyMuffin said:

    You're right they do have spikes, in both directions I'd argue.

    All factions have power spikes, whether its OST flametrack, crushwell, stuart etc, its more the fact that OKW have so many, they are only really weak during the end of the midgame, any competent player will not be at a disadvantage at those phases unless he is seriously outplayed or loses a crucial unit like your example: first sturms or the luchs straight of the bat. But even then volks and raks are cheap and effective enough to hold everything together, at least until the next spike.

    Part of me almost likes that as a (most likely inadvertent) design choice for representing 1944-45 Axis forces + Asymmetric gameplay. Do others like it?

    Of course, its a crucial part of coh 2's assymetric gameplay, different factions have certain advantages during certain periods of the game. Its just arguably OKW is in a similar position to the current UKF, though their beginning being much stronger compensates the more difficult mid-game. But aside from brit early and OKW late-mid, both factions will likely hold the advantage over their opponent just through their available units and faction design, regardless of player skill.

    If both pass the 20 min mark, they simply snowball out of control. UKF mainly due to how powerful their tanks and upgraded IS are. OKW with how cost-effective their core units are means its unlikely they will ever struggle to field their top tier (obers, KT, panther etc), meaning even if you outplay them and keep them on the backfoot, they can recover far too easily.

  • #7
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,747
    I wouldnt mind seeing volks lose their stg package to lean more in favor of more bleedy infantry as an outlet for helping slow snowballing but armour is no real advantage given the extreme potency of allied TDs.

    I would also love a looksy at a REBALANCE of vet to something a lil less outragious, somethink along the lines of:

    Vets 1,3,5 correspond to other factions 1,2,3 (ability or small buff, combat buff, some passive ability or powerful stat buff) then vets 2 and 4 could be something like triggered abilities (ober supression, sturms could get a smoke grenade, sprint stuff like that) so the player gets more chances to interact with their units to make them better, it would raise the skill cap for the okw but would still be useable by players who arnt initiated. Basicly it raises potential without just lowering player input/letting player brute force through. The abilities would help putthe muni strain back into the okw and present choices (vs current choice of "do i get the stg package or the stg package?")

    Granted, thats a huuuge change and super ambitious/ hella balance testing required
  • #8
    3 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 615

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    I wouldnt mind seeing volks lose their stg package to lean more in favor of more bleedy infantry as an outlet for helping slow snowballing but armour is no real advantage given the extreme potency of allied TDs.

    Very true, fixing the stg would be the first step, then changes after that could be gauged. Something along the lines of upping the reinforce cost at vet 3 could be an idea, going from 25mp to 27-28mp would at least create some bleed, without affecting the early game performance/balance.

  • #9
    3 months ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 418
    edited April 20

    That's a very broad discussion you've brought into play. My suggestion would be to start at one point first. There's far to many questions being asked here. Not that i disagree or agree with any of them, but there's so many factors involved that cross reference and affect others.

    Basically what i'm saying is, when asking broad questions like that, units are at the end of the list. How the faction is suppose to work, teching design, and its income are the starting points...yup, the boring stuff that no body wants to do, but that's how you balance a faction. Always from the start.

    Because of all the changes to the okw since it's first implementation, it's "kinda of" a mess.
    And for example as one of your questions mentions, why do you think there's so much controversy about volks? Because they were never suppose to work as they do now. That's why i say "kind of a mess"

  • #10
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,747
    @Farra13 upping reinforcement costs with vet would have been an interesting idea for fresh okw (as units get more vetted they are harder to muster reinforcments but are damn fierce fighters, when bleed begins to get heavy vehicles take over) but atm i dont think it would be doable, i wouldnt want to vet up if it made my units more expensive to maintain...

    Im curious what replacing volks with something more like the oold ostroppen would be like (buffing sturms and obers to be able carry more weigh)
    With the kuble there is actually lots of potential in that kind of prospect i think.... Maybe ill make a thread....
  • #11
    3 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 615
    edited April 20

    Your probably right dark, however Volks are defintely too strong for their apparent role, its a similar situation to rifles atm. Why grab Obers when Volks can do the same job at a lower cost? Their cost-efficiency is insane, 250mp and 25 for a reinforce is obscene for a unit that scales that well.

    You would think that volks would be similar to ostruppen as that would fit the factions theme, as historically they were basically fully recovered troops previously wounded, reserve personnel and men drafted from the luftwaffe/kriegsmarine. The Obers in my mind represent the hardened nco/vets that they built these divisions around (despite the fact in-game they are clearly supposed to be ss soldiers).

    I guess i miss the original OKW, that design was so unique. It would take a hell of alot of work to restore it, that's before even taking into account how to balance them. Its a damn shame they were torn apart and remade so many times.

  • #12
    3 months ago
    MeowMeow Posts: 165

    Sc2 has a lot of more diversity than a COH2 , lot of builds , certain timings , lategame compositions which are influenced by your early and mid game production lineup.

    Having monotone progress line like OKW surly makes games boring. Only diversity Is okw reacting to opponent and trying to stay alive for that KT.

    OKW can sometimes bring out reactions from opponent, like going for luchs , stuka , idk , something that has to be dealt with now or will snowball and give much advantage.

    OKW is made to be great at lategame , whole design is that way. Population efficient units , high vet scaling , BEST heavy tank available every game if you wish or rather if you can survive up that point. Arriving such late KT has to be good cause you sacrificed all armor impact for expensive tank which also require full tech. Having no other tanks and than get countered by 1 TD seems pretty UP in that regard. Allied player forced you to react with comets , shermans , t-34 etc.
    You couldn't answered with fuel cause you can't get that KT otherwise. But when you bring out your threat it gets countered by TD which is half price. Some maps have more value for KT than others. City maps or maps with lots of short range engagements. How to reduce effectiveness of KT but not change its value overall.

    My radical solution
    Buff armor to 500
    reduce dmg to 160

    Now KT has steady dmg output and relaible armor , can sacrafice more HP to get close but must stay closer more for same output thus negating armor buff. Now output is much more steady , retreating from KT is easier but killing it is harder. It should be durable but with such high dmg its too good when it comes close.

    KT as now is sort of glass cannon super heavy. Has really high DPS but gets hit easist due to it beeing slow and having low range.

    IF heavy tank has 1 strong capability it should be it's armor to protect it not huge gun , those are for TDs , self propelled guns. It's slow but dangerous , get hits so often , having some resisting power would serve it better than having DMG output. Right now its jack of all trades why not make it good at taking shots and dealing with infantry and having some AT power. OKW has other dedicated AT units : Panther (not good atm) , Jagdpanzer , Jagdtiger (doctrine but takes all tanks)
    , rakettenwerfer (still usable but bad) , Sturmpioneers , puma.

  • #13
    3 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,641
    Volks need a complete overhaul. Theyre far too good for cost and with vet they scale too well. They should be your rear echelon equivalent. Cheap utility units that can defend a position and not much else.

    Your DPS needs to come from Sturms and Obers. Volks are simply putting out too much.

    I feel Sturms themselves could use a look again. Having 3 STGs and a Schreck is too good an a-move unit once youve got the horde going. Id like to experiment with taking the survivability out of their vet and putting it in an upgrade that is mutually exclusive with the Schreck.

    Forward retreat points that also have medics - terrible idea. Id honestly like to see it gutted from all the wfa but thats not happening. Id be interested in moving the medics to HQ and keeping the FRP on the truck - so you could fight from the front or you could fight with full HP (this would obviously only work if you take self heal off Volks)

    I mean thats a good starting point to gutting the OKW cheese
  • #14
    3 months ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 353
    Overhaul of forward retreat points with no medics is an interesting idea.

    Some people seem to be heavily confusing Volksgrenadiers to Volksstrum. The former are suppose to be potent, effective mainline infantrymen - Relics own description of the unit in-game is true to what I want from the game's balance. Not cannon fodder of the latter.

    I too want more Ober play but that is the only non doc unit mainline infantry unit you could build. I enjoy them now in my builds with stg upgrade - they're super expensive and so slow to reinforce but really help in winning engagements.

    Volks are mainline infantry and shouldn't be judged for being the main force one might see, depending on the person.

    None of the changes to them could possibly happen with Riflemen and Tommies as they currently are.

    It almost, almost, makes me want OKW to be exclusive to USF and UKF in terms of match ups in automatch for balance purposes (it fits history well as a side bonus).
  • #15
    3 months ago

    Here is the problem: Obers are bad and Volks are too good.

    Obers hit the field very late, cost and bleed a lot of MP, always get insta-wiped by AoE (should be better after the patch, but still), useless without vet and LMG/STG upgrade. On the other hand they get ridicilous unfair passive supression ability if they survive until vet 4. It should be changed to more weapon range or buff in cover passive like IS have.

  • #16
    3 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 523
    edited April 21
    Volks carry the faction to well atm. they are relativly cheap durable and scale very well plus a no brainer upgrade and can stand up to more expensive units quite well and slaughter cons at every stage of the game for only 10mp more.
    because of this sturms and obers etc imo are left in their dust.

    I to feel that volks should start the fight by binding other squads in combat and take the hits and sturms should do the damage as they close in. right now volks do both very wel.

    A while back volks got a damage buff, i feel that should be reverted. like lazarus said its to make them more like rear echelons in a sense.
    i also feel the self heal should be replaced (it grants way to much field presence to a cheap unit imo) with something utility oriented. just a few things that come to mind: inf/tank awareness or spoting in a certian direction for leigs etc reducing sight in other directions. A rof buff in (heavy) cover at vet 3 or an active ability with a negative effect afterwards.
    Imo the stgs should be given at either vet 4 or 5 just like rear echelons get 5th man with vet and sections get scoped enfields.

    like the patch team mentioned if we nerf a (op) unit (in this case volks) then we can see what other units need to make them viable and keep the faction diverse and strong.
  • #17
    3 months ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 418
    edited April 21

    Ill mention this, but i wonder if anyone agrees since the topic is starting to focus on volks, but i believe i had something with switching fusiliers as the okw's core infantry. Despite their large squad size, they're kinda squishy and bleed easily.

    But the whole switching shrecks to sturms and assault rifles to volks made a huge mess. To this day i still think that was a mistake. Even their name doesnt really fit in with the okw as core infantry. But that's all history/lore. Fusiliers sounds like a name synonymous with the the okw, an semi elite unit or decent core infantry. When folks comes to mind, you think of broken and regrouped divisions, or reserve/drafted infantry. (again thats just the name/look bothering me)

    Volks should be put in a doctrine, similarly to how osttruppen are called in; reserve units.
    As for obers, they need some of their nerfs reverted. They were hit to hard.

    Even if this change was made, and i know it would help, another big problem for the okw is teching (remember how thier income was change? that was never looked at again, nor the idea of caches for them) See what i mean, there's to many variables here..... also, their vast amount of elite infantry that perform to close in relation to one another, obers, jagers, falls...
    Jagers seem to vague these days, not as in who they are, but what their role is..."They're suppose to scout and gather resources"...I do that with sturms and volks. And their obscure mini-sniper in the team is awkward as well. It doesnt really fit with their other abilities.

    Why?

    As least falls are to the point, click building, rush enemy weapon teams with auto rilfes...YET jagers have the same hinted role, but perform terrible at it, and again, everything they do i can do with non-doctrinal units.

  • #18
    3 months ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 272
    edited April 22

    OKW start with sturm+kubel and not needing tech till they have ~3-4x volks out is pretty good. So you have often fuel lead early game which allows you to either get very diverse support options with med hq or build a luchs before your opponent has vehicles and then later support the luchs against their vehicles with raks/sturm schrek. Though this does not always work and depends on map quite a lot vs brits, like if there are houses covering the important points good luck getting anything done. Still early game I do think you have a minor advantage in general. Though I must say it is pretty high risk reward, you are basically not allowed to make mistakes or have really bad luck else you are royally screwed.

    Mid game the enemy often has an advantage by getting med tanks before you do, but by playing a bit defensive and turtling around schwere this can be survived. Just try to take as little risk as possible while holding some points and your fuel.

    Late game you can buy tanks that devaluate their meds and force them to buy TDs while your infantery starts to outscale or scale up to equal of theirs and with abundance of muni you just spam pretty much undodgeable flame nades to deal damage and force enemy inf out of cover winning you almost any fight. Then to deal with TDs you can use invis raks and volks leading the way while KT takes shots from behind the frontline at enemy infantery that try to stop your advance. jagd can give great support to KT, or you can use stuka to take down mgs if they hold your volks at bay.

    I think the main issue is that volks and are a bit too good. They have allright dps, survivability and gain alot of "free" utility with T1, flame nades are honestly one of the best nades on mainline inf in game, they are thrown so fast and force enemy out of cover for the rest of the fight due to flames. If volks were a bit worse you would also have less of an advantage early game which is imo fairer since you already have a considerable advantage in late game.
    When playing with fuseliers it is even worse you have both flame and normal grenades, even better overall fire power, survivability and have basically map hacks due to their insane vision range. And that while fuseliers cost only 6 population giving you about the most population efficient infantery force possible.
    Schwere gives you a pretty decent defensive structure that costs no pop cap and is part of your tech. Its a bit too much of a good deal again imo.
    Same for KT it is expensive in purchase price but with 21 pop cost its upkeep is kinda low for how good it is.

    Downside of playing OKW is reliance on raks and how raks are quite prone to being oneshotted due to their low range and squad formation.
    Leig can be good, but overall I still prefer mortars for price, being able to retreat and since Leig does not have smoke. :/

  • #19
    3 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,364

    this mostly not an OKW issue but WFA issues .

  • #20
    3 months ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 771

    @Vipper short answer, but it is true. There are some huge design problems for these fractions and maybe they will never be fixed.

  • #21
    3 months ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 353
    Thing is can one faction be 'fixed' at a time or would it have to be all together (the fundamental changes, whatever they may be).

    All depends on Kyle's scope.
  • #22
    3 months ago
    PotatoMArkPotatoMArk Posts: 16

    why is okw have heavy tank when sojiet have lots heavy tank and also wehrmacht have lots more heavy tank than royal tiger? also usa not heavy tank but 1 commander when lots of america have tank?

  • #23
    2 months ago
    dafelsdafels Posts: 8
    edited April 24

    remove stgs from volks and the faction will fall apart late game, because they will just get shredded by double bar riflemen and double bren tommies. If volks get their stg removed, okw will need to have a good buff somewhere else then. Obers are too expensive to replace them with volks so they could just stand up against double bar riflemen/double bren tommies and they just get wiped so easily with aoe weapons.

  • #24
    2 months ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 471

    It's not the late game for OKW being op, the early game is problematic as volks are a bit too strong which allows OKW to hold half the map without too much struggle and OKW in the early and midgame have plenty of opportunity to go on the offensive. If the nerfs for Brits in the next patch are implemented, we should see some sort of tweak for volks. I'd say removing the vet 1 received acc and replacing it with a smoke grenade would be good. Smoke for volks should be 30 munis not 15 hence OKW won't be able to spam it.

  • #25
    2 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,747
    Obviously there would need to be buffs elsewhere, but the point is to lessen the lean on the cheap, flexible units and put more emphasis on the more expensive "elite" units. Make volks unique instead of a different flavour of the usf rifleman (that being the ONLY infantry you will ever need, for any task, at any point of the game)
  • #26
    2 months ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,853

    Give Volks a smoke grenade instead of STGs and let Obers come out earlier by splitting the Flak HQ into two techs (Obers/JP4 when placed, Panther and P4 when upgraded with Flak Cannon.) If they're still getting rekt before Obers can arrive, you could always adjust sturmpio vet or allow them to buy PGren STGs.

  • #28
    2 months ago
    company14u2company14… Posts: 549

    Put walking stuka behind schwere. Maxims got nerfed; okw should not have access to stukas within the first ten minutes. Stukas snowball the faction in team games.
    Also, Usf needs a counter against kubels. Okw lost their fausts, so soviet scout cars can counter them, but usf has to rely on one doctrine to hold points in open maps.
    Jt and pfus will probably see nerfs soon.

  • #29
    2 months ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 150

    @company14u2 said:
    Put walking stuka behind schwere. Maxims got nerfed; okw should not have access to stukas within the first ten minutes. Stukas snowball the faction in team games.
    Also, Usf needs a counter against kubels. Okw lost their fausts, so soviet scout cars can counter them, but usf has to rely on one doctrine to hold points in open maps.
    Jt and pfus will probably see nerfs soon.

    Why, exactly? The Stuka is the only real OKW counter to garrisons and fortified positions, and can be easily killed by almost anything, even if it is slightly more durable than a Panzerwerfer. Compare to Calliope for example, which cannot be killed unless you commit to chasing it with an actual tank, which often results in you also losing that panzer.

    I think OKW should drift away from massing Volks towards what I feel the game lacks; a faction with very few units that struggles for map control, but those few units are exceptionally strong when vetted up with powerful abilities and upgrades. Like Obersoldaten or Jagdpanzer. I feel those things should be the faction theme for OKW, not Volks spam.

  • #30
    2 months ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 928
    @Noitatohtori
    +1
    It is what the OKW should have been, but alas they corrupted that purpose by making cheap and plentiful volks, weird kubels and and raketens which dosent belong neither here or there.
    ST's, obers, KT's, the upgraded but more expensive PIV, they all fit with that original philosophy...
  • #31
    2 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 615

    @company14u2 said:
    Put walking stuka behind schwere. Maxims got nerfed; okw should not have access to stukas within the first ten minutes. Stukas snowball the faction in team games.

    Maxims may have got effectively nerfed, but If i remember right, its still a damn hmg, just as OKW struggles vs mortars and at guns, not too mention garrisons. Stuka is their main counter. Its a pubstomp unit that is high risk, high reward, if your struggling against it, its more a skill issue than an imbalance. The sacrifices that OKW makes for a stuka means low field presence and no armour in a realistic time frame, just go agressive and punish him for it.

    Also, Usf needs a counter against kubels. Okw lost their fausts, so soviet scout cars can counter them, but usf has to rely on one doctrine to hold points in open maps.

    RE aren't expensive, neither are zooks, you have the tools.... use them.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Splitting the schwere has other great benifits: if you put obers lmg behind the upgrade (presumably the AA and armour upgrade) it could be buffed but also allows ir stgs to be more accessible.

    ^^This dark, this is what I have advocated for a long time. It would fit really well with OKW's current tech design.

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