[ALL] Team Game Dominant Meta Discussion

#1
2 years ago

Copy Paste thread of @Mr_Smith's post on COH2.ORG - https://coh2.org/topic/61106/teamgame-dominant-meta so all opinions can be voiced :

I'm making this post give a glimpse about how we (the balance team) feel teamgame dominant meta could be changed to be more fun and more diverse.

Part of the reason I'm making this post is to openly declare our intentions to the community and get some feedback.

Preface

For a large number of reasons we will never be able to guarantee a fully-balanced state for teamgames. However, we carry out changes to suit 1v1 meta, we always keep an eye out so that stuff does not become too ridiculous for teamgames.

Teamgames are very commander-oriented, and combining the right set of commanders should remain a staple of teamgames (i.e., there's no harm).

However, at the same time, we keep seeing certain commanders appear time and time again regardless of the map being played, or the playstyle of the opponent. The same commanders also require a very specific playstyle to be countered, further removing diversity from viable strategies.

Similar to how we want to reign in 1v1 Call-in meta, to give people better flexibility in commander choices, we also want to limit the dominance of specific 4v4 commanders to give everyone better flexibility in what to choose.

Unfortunately, we may not be able to address the dominant meta in one go. Therefore I'm presenting our list of priorities and how we hope to address it. There at many layers of cheese and we plan on removing it from top to bottom.

Highest priority changes

This one goes to difficult-to-counter veterancy wipes. The moment these units enter the field it doesn't matter how you got there; they just reset the game hard.

Stuka Dive Bomb

  • Needs no introductions
  • Dirt cheap ability
  • In addition to being OP vs infantry, it also completely nullifies half of the available Soviet doctrines
  • If you want an easy-click ability to counter howitzers, pick Railway artillery, instead

Elefant/Jagdtiger

2-shots -> medium tank/TD dead

Damage needs to go down from 320 to 280 to:

  • Prevent these tanks from wiping veterancy left and right
  • Keep them relevant vs advanced mediums/heavies
  • Reworked to keep remotely relevant for smaller modes (e.g., cheaper, barrage at vet0, etc)

Sturmtiger

Is an over-the-top infantry killer. Has no business killing medium tanks too:

  • Damage from 640 to 560
  • Removed vehicle criticals
  • Mutually-exclusive with KT (Abandon removed to avoid abuse)

(Sure, fuel price should go up, but that's lower priority than the stuff that makes Sturmtiger completely broken)

Calliope
- Impossible to counter using Axis armour
- Rework barrage to Katyusha levels
- HP/Armour to Priest levels

High priority cheese

Priest
- Ban decrewing (to avoid popcap abuse)
- Adjust popcap

JU-87 loiter
The ability deals higher than artillery-cover grade criticals, on top of murdering everything on its wake

  • At the very least remove criticals from the ability

1v1-affecting cheese

Crocodile

This is, again, an issue with super-specialized hardware. Even if you make them OK for 1v1, they become a menace in anything bigger than that.

  • Simply too good for its cost at killing infantry
  • Remember that range-affecting nerf some year ago? Well, it never properly made it in

Solution:

  • Fix flamethrower damage and range (downwards)
  • Upgrade cannon damage from 80 to 100 so that it can threaten tanks
  • Allow players to control cannon directly

This allows Crocodile to be an AI-mostly generalist, which means it no longer has to absolutely murder infantry by staring at them.

Firefly

Fireflies are mostly OK for 1v1. However:

  • They have too good accuracy and moving accuracy making vehicle-play impossible against them
  • This is, unless, OST/OKW use heavy-TDs (which will be getting nerfed, btw)

Solution:

  • Reduce accuracy/moving accuracy to SU-85 levels
  • Remove movement-stun from Tulips
  • Remove damage bonus from Vet3 (too good vs mediums; might require cost decrease though)

JP4

  • Good luck countering this unit with Soviets/USF if it's vetted
  • Just nerf its Vet2 stats (HP/sight)

Stugs

  • For the time being, just nerf its OP TWP ability to Puma/Stug-E levels
  • Popcap to 10

Address repair-speed inconsistencies

Self-explanatory

Good-to-have stuff

Howitzers

Howitzers could use an MP discount for a fuel cost. This will allow Howitzers to be used more in the late-game by OST/Soviets (which are MP-constrained), and a bit less by OKW (which is fuel-bottlenecked)

  • Cost changed from 600MP to 400MP/70FU?

Pak43

Same as above. However, before doing this, it would be wise to create non-doc counters to them for USF/Brits:

  • Cost changed from 500MP to 350MP/60FU?

Emplacement/ISG rework

  • Mortar pit/ISG auto-attack range needs to go down (to at most 80)
  • Barrage recharge could happen faster for Mortar Pits
  • ISGs need anti-garrison upgrade for sure
  • Brace needs rework (at the very least, it should disable repairs while active)

Demo charge rework

Trial-and-error.

Aura effects

We should remove/reduce the effect of the following auras on teammates:

  • Soviet forward HQ
  • P4 command tank

Mark Target potency could also get nerfed to, at least, avoid pulverising medium tanks (similar to why Command Panther Mark Target was nerfed). There is no way to limit the effects of Mark Target to the player that triggered it.

«13

Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    As a raging Axis fanboy this has me quivering in my boots. I do not want the incredibly expensive, unique TD units the Axis can field to be worthless. Their supposed OP'ness is exactly what all Allied TD's currently have towards Axis' expensive, 'useless' mediums.

    Since when was the SturmTiger an "over-the-top infantry killer"? Over the top in terms of having to manually reload the shells? That gameplay element can be put onto the CalliOP :D It's AOE is of that where if you don't get it in the right spot you wont get a wipe. Similar to the Goliath. Speaking of which, where are the Goliath buffs?

  • #3
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,821
    Yea, im not a huge fan of some of these changes, i would rather resourse inflation get a looksy and repair speeds nerfed so that infantry combat is more dominant and bad armour play actually hurts..
  • #4
    2 years ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 254

    Couldent agree more to the changes in team game. At least make the damage of the jagd and elefant to 300 so it can't freaking 2 shots all medium tanks. Sence you need to flank it and thats very difficult on some maps where its just need to drive backward and easly picked off 2 at least of ur tanks before getting behind it. I been making a feedback about it before also.

  • #5
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited May 2017

    They aren't bad changes per se, but i've always believed resource inflation plays the biggest role is f***ing up team game balance. WIthout adressing that, both Axis factions and Brits will still remain the dominant nations as SOV and USF will never have any advantage in terms of vehicles, as they will be matched in numbers despite the general quality of their vehicles being worse. Not too mention with their reliance on infantry, when OKW and OST are easily fielding a shit load of vehicles will inevitably lead to their high mp bleed remaining a problem.

    As for the sturm, ye fine lower the damage to prevent the one-hit wipes, but keep the imobilization/heavy engine damage. If you get hit by sturmtiger skill shot, you should be properly punished. And if you hit that unit with such a hard nerf, combined with the limited exclusivity of the KT and ST, you will have to fix the other abilities like the panzer commander and emergency repairs, otherwise the elite armour commander will be resigned to the dustbin with others like USF recon or OST infantry.

  • #6
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    edited May 2017

    Stuka zu fuss/Stuka Dive Bomb are a vital tool for 2v2's that unfortunately end up on Minsk Pocket with a UKF camp commander. I'm sure there are staunch defenders of the Stuka zu fuss being a balanced unit. It's just that, as said in the thread on coh2.org, that it sucks in 1v1 for the most part but can be over inflated in 4v4's.

    Ugh what a job. How large the nerf/buff hammers are should largerly depend on how broken everyone thinks 4v4's currently are. Is it completely unplayable? I issue caution on doing anything too drastic.

  • #7
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,821
    If the sturm cant ohk vehicles imo it should get a HEFTY modifier vs emplacments. As it is now it cant even ohk an unbraced mortarpit.. If im not going to be rewarded for using shotblockers and leading tanks i fucking well better be able to use it to apply chemo to the cancer that is emplacments
  • #8
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited May 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    If the sturm cant ohk vehicles imo it should get a HEFTY modifier vs emplacments. As it is now it cant even ohk an unbraced mortarpit.. If im not going to be rewarded for using shotblockers and leading tanks i fucking well better be able to use it to apply chemo to the cancer that is emplacments

    I'm fine with the buff to emplacements part, but let's not act like the ability to 1-shot standard mediums being reduced to putting them to within 1 zook of death is leaving it rewardless against armor. And losing the 44% chance to stun-crit any tank in the game from is not exactly unfair, that's by far the highest chance of stunning the game for something you don't pay for with each use. 560 dmg is also still more than half of just about every allied tank's health besides a Churchill.

    Since this is being pointed to purely in a team game lens, the reload (the STs biggest weakness obvi) is less essential in that context. You're teammate might have an elly or JagD following up the next shot, or maybe you're target is marked by a command panther. Not saying the allies don't have great synergy too, but the Axis are hardly lacking great late-game AT. The ST can be plenty valuable as a blob/bunker buster. And if you snare a medium, firing an ST shot at it will be an easy kill and hardly be a waste of a rocket.

  • #9
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,024
    Thanks @SquishyMuffin for bringing this over to the official forums.

    I am fine with the nerfs overall however I worry they will be implemented lop sided (i.e. the heavy TDs are nerfed in one update and Axis becomes crippled until Calliopes stop wiping ATGs)

    For the Firefly - im happy to say goodbye to the movement stun but I would suggest reducing the cost of firing the rockets OR removing the long reload penalty that you get from firing them. If it is becoming a defensive ability the Firefly should be able to defend itself after firing.

    Im not sure how I feel about the ST but I will be happy to give the changes a try because it really is an all or nothing unit. One thing though - could we *please* make the vet actually achievable on this thing if we nerf it? Its a good road map so now we know the direction we are ultimately moving in
  • #10
    2 years ago
    Lnk003Lnk003 Posts: 418
    edited May 2017

    @Mr_Smith Really nice changes if you manage to do them but since you're addressing TD why not include jackson that are regarded as "trash" because of their poor survability?
    Centaur as well and it doesn't need much, it's not a td but it's mobility was overnerfed to the point you never build it so if you can sneak it somewhere.

    Demo charge, i'm not against it far from that and limit the dmg to 3 model/squad with massive pin aoe would be totally fine but imo teller mine is for light vehicules what demo charge is for infantry. I would even be ok to have an immobilized crit (the heavy engine one where you can't move anymore) for hitting a teller but mine full vehicule wipe while demo charge being changed because it wipe infantry seems -somewhat- unfair (i don't find a better word to describe the way i see this). Of course same logic for the US m6 mine (not sure but i think it vehicule wipe too) and thus goliath, us demos etc.

    Emplacements: I would really like to see bofor being changed as well for ex limited to 1 / weaker and probably cheaper or same cost idk/ not exclusive with AEC. Something like that or just a rework since they are in a really weird spot.
    Pak43/howitzer for fuel: the second you know it's there you insta counter it with artillery (for ex gcs where the sov heavy mortar instantly countered and then destroyed the pack) or off map in team games because one can have recon the other il2 or stuka etc.
    As a suggestion maybe you could have somekind of abritrary reduced dmg/bonus for the gun itselft so the crew gets wipes as usual but the gun have a bigger chance not to be destroyed and allow players to recrew and repair them.
    It could be great to add hp/armor on planes so countering them is not total reliance on luck for ostwinds and flaks as well.

  • #11
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited May 2017
    Don't touch my StuG III Ausführung G! The only good tank Ost has. You have problems with it? Build a PaK, same thing Ost needs versus Allii tank-hunter.

    Real OP things?

    1. Jagdtiger (remove it from Game, not needed) edit: Change it with Hetzer (45 range, same AT performance as P4).
    2. Mg42 (too much power for early game. Change it with Mg34, put it in T1 and make Grens T0).
    3. Volks (give them MP40 instead of STG44).
    4. Mortar-Emplacements (remove them, give Brits a normal Mortar, allow trenches to fit and give a range boost if garrisoned. Add a "hull-down" ability too the trench).

    Edit:

    Other things:

    - Make Molotov non-tech.
    - Make Cons cheaper in late-game. T3 230mp. T4 220mp.
    - Sturmpionier add Smoke-grenade (remove Shock-grenade).
    - Panzergrenadier only one Schreck for 60mun.
    - Sturmtruppe 2 Schrecks for 120mun.
    - Osttruppen option to build sand-bags.
    - Ost all trenches removed with hull-down ability. (one Doctrine has still both, change here trench with Smoke-StuKa-bombs).
    - Make StuKa-bomb like one shot of Gustav (less aoe) and make Gustave more like StuKa (much aoe).
  • #12
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Stuka Dive Bomb
    Reduce the critical kill radius and that damage so that it does not 1 shoot artillery. Reduce cooldown
    Give it extra damage vs emplacement so it can act as counter to sim city.
    Increase price if needed.

    Elefant/Jagdtiger
    The same goes for Firefly/M36.
    Reduce size of mediums increase size of heavies reduce accuracy all TD with range over 60.
    Reduce damage.
    If these unit need to be stronger vs Super heavies design abilities vs super heavies or target tables.

    Sturmtiger
    Again redesign vehicle as a doctrinal counter to emplacements.

    Calliope
    Limit to 1.

    **Firefly **
    As mentioned above .

    JP4
    Redesign unit either a cheaper lower pop counter to medium or more expensive counter to Heavies/super heavies.

    Emplacement
    Swap embrace with hold fast. Now protecting mortars cost mu.
    Reduce range but allow counter fire option that has bigger range.

    PZ4 CT
    Simply have aura scale with veterancy

  • #13
    2 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343
    edited May 2017

    About resource inflation in 4v4's. I don't think it's actually as big of a problem as people make it out to be, and I think the net effects of it are actually positive.

    The main issue that plagues 4v4's is the maps:

    • Small, bottlenecked; perfect for MG spam
    • At the same time, you have the same number of sectors to capture as 1v1 maps. Going for cheap units to gain map control means nothing; all that matters is having a punch.
    • For the final stages of the game you have 3 VPs, and you only need to control 2, making teamgames heavily favour heavy tanks

    At first glance, it seems obvious that fixing the inflation should fix late-game spam. Right?

    However, the moment you fix resource inflation, you take armour away from the field in the early stages, and you are left with manpower-mostly armies on the same, bottlenecked maps.

    The direct result of that would be:

    • MG spam
    • Mortar & Sim City spam, like you've never seen before
    • ^Those automatically render infantry useless
    • People would still bee-line for the specialist tanks (Croco, Heavy TDs) and skip tech; essentially porting the 1v1 call-in issue to 4v4.

    In general, I think:

    • Its OK that teching happens faster in 4v4's, since you need breakthrough units to break stalemates
    • However, resource over-saturation really exposes faction scalability issues (e.g., Soviet MP-bottlenecked drain vs OKW fuel-bottlenecked economy)

    However, caches are a different story, and I do think they could go (or at least, their price should scale with the number of players):

    • Locking down sectors means lesser possibility for harassment with infantry. That reinforces force concentration and blobbing
    • The effect of caches is more visible in the late-game (where resource inflation is bad), than the early game (where you need resource concentration)
    • OKW cannot contribute to the cache-building effort (yeah, OKW have salvage, but only the 1 guy that salvages can benefit from it)

    In short:

    • Early game resource-inflation/teching: great
    • Late-game resource-inflation: not so great

    PS:
    Yes, there are a ton of crappy stock units that would have to be fixed (e.g., Jacksons/Conscripts). However, those units would also be fixed if we were to look at the 1v1 strength of individual factions.

    That is to say, concerns surrounding those units are not team-game specific.

  • #14
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Mr_Smith said:
    In short:

    • Early game resource-inflation/teching: great
    • Late-game resource-inflation: not so great

    The bigger the difference in economy between 1vs1 and 4vs4 the more difficult to balance. Example:
    Brumbar rather balanced in 1vs1 op in large games.

    The more difference between economy and CP the more difficult to balance commanders.

    Cashes are currently X4 times more effective in 4vs4 in 1v1. Simply reduce the return the large the game.

  • #15
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Resource inflation is definitely an issue, though it stems from caches, not the base income of territories. Off the top of my head, 4 fuel caches when chucked down between the 6-8 min mark in a team game; right after the first at units come out, generate about 300-350 fuel over the course of the next forty minutes for each player.

    That basically negates any premium costs for axis and brit tanks, but because the mp income remains fixed, factions like USF and SOV end up fielding a similar number of tanks despite the average performance difference, but build up a vast reserve of fuel that they cannot ever hope to spend.

    Then of course with so much Axis armour on the field, bleed becomes a real issue for USF and SOV due to their reliance on large forces of infantry.

    I think the best idea would be to ensure caches only benefit the owner (player that built it).

  • #16
    2 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited May 2017

    @Mr_Smith said:
    PS:
    Yes, there are a ton of crappy stock units that would have to be fixed (e.g., Jacksons/Conscripts). However, those units would also be fixed if we were to look at the 1v1 strength of individual factions.

    That is to say, concerns surrounding those units are not team-game specific.

    But then is it not better to fix the generally problematic units before the specific team-game units as it benefits more games and people?

    Also what is so crappy about Jacksons? Imo they are pretty good.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    NoitatohtoriNoitatoht… Posts: 182

    I have to say I didn't see the point of any of these changes, except Mortar placement range reduction, decrew abuse and the Calliope durability fix. Most of the things seem to me as purely L2P issues. Then again, I mostly play 3 v 3 and can't speak for 2 v 2 or 4 v 4.

    Demo charges don't need a fix, Crocodile is okay (it's just the other flame tanks that suck), field artillery is counterable and just as strong as it should be, etc, etc. I'm especially concerned about changing howitzers to cost fuel: they're usually my go-to solution for sim cities, and changing them to become an unviable, fuel-consuming mess doesn't particularly thrill me.

  • #18
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,821
    @SkysTheLimit i might be biased since its my go to team game commander as the okw (for heat and radio intercept more than the sturm honestly) but usually killing a tank with the sturm is either great play on my part or horrible play on the enemies, the aim time means that if they had infantry repairing on the front of a tank they would see the sturm before it shoots. I wouldnt be opposed (would actually embrace the idea) of adding a muni cost to the shots for flavour and balance but for something that gets 1 shot every minute best case scenario it NEEDS to have meaningful impact. Even the b4 would have a bigger impact at that point and have more range and not impact armour output nearly as much. Reduced repair rates for usf and brits would help alot, but even a t34 (costing half the price) could tank a shot and then frontally face fuck the sturm with the proposed change (in a vacuum i know) because it cant return fire to deal that 80 damage.

    Idk it might be an alright change but i think it would be more economic to just remove the unit from the game than spend the time on fucking around with it for all the play it would get after that change. Even now, playing only 4s its a very rare sight for me (its usually ME playing it for that matter)
  • #19
    2 years ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 3,107 mod
    edited May 2017

    For the most part these things look alright, though curious as to how they will make the elephant and jagdtiger relevant in 1v1s. Without any way to deal with infantry or a lower pricetag.. They are rather of low utility.

    As for the StuG. Why not just give it a new vet 1 ability instead ? A Barrage ability maybe ? Suppression for it's mg upgrade ? While i do like TwP myself, i think at this point it might just be easier to let it go and give the StuG some utility in some other manner.

    That or maybe just replace it with a more simple heat round ability that has increased penetration and damage in one shot.

    Glad to see demo charge being on the list and i do think auras need to be looked at as well. My personal suggestion would be to remove Rec. Acc. stuff at the very least and give something else. The overall preference would be abilities along the line of the Sturm Offizier with his "orders" IE target this and it gets some bonuses, boosting a specific unit in some way and so on. Increase the skill cap basically but then give a bit of a reward for doing so.

    I'd probably also remove the penalty for the Sturm Offiziers abilities while at it, since you are paying munitions it seems odd to give the enemy an edge as well.

    Also Wehrmacht Tier 4 needs to be a priority. It's not really good atm, especially in 1v1 games it is bad. Really needs a look at.

  • #20
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    About howizters:
    "Stuka Dive Bomb
    Needs no introductions
    Dirt cheap ability
    In addition to being OP vs infantry, it also completely nullifies half of the available Soviet doctrines
    If you want an easy-click ability to counter howitzers, pick Railway artillery, instead"

    This is a counter to static artillery but there is number of off map counter that are equally or even better ones like the
    anvil "concentration" barrage. One should decide which abilities should counter static howitzers.

    The bigger problem with this ability is that it combined with the Elephant imo and stuka should simply be replaced in that commander.

    (For the ability one could reduce the damage so that tit does not 1 shoot howitzer but imo it should be designed as doctrinal counter to emplacements.)

    Priest

    • Ban decrewing (to avoid popcap abuse)
    • Adjust popcap

    Again this is a unit that hard counter static howizter and one should consider if the LEFH should be better at dealing with Priest especially with the vet 1 ability or new ability vs SPG.

    "Howitzers
    Howitzers could use an MP discount for a fuel cost. This will allow Howitzers to be used more in the late-game by OST/Soviets (which are MP-constrained), and a bit less by OKW (which is fuel-bottlenecked)
    Cost changed from 600MP to 400MP/70FU?"

    Consider making base sectors not target-able for normal barrage.

  • #21
    2 years ago
    capiquacapiqua Posts: 270

    This original thread is burning 10.000 Viewers. I hope you relic do something

  • #22
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited May 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo I don't disagree that hitting a tank with an ST rocket takes some skill, but I just don't think it needs 1-shot potential for it to be effective. Leaving a medium with 80 health means its probably dying in a team game. Maybe they could leave the stun chance and lower the duration so it just forces you to give another order on your near-dead tank.

  • #23
    2 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058

    With those prices i can finnaly afford artilery.

  • #24
    2 years ago
    ubermenschubermensch Posts: 44

    First of all, why shouldn't sturm tiger be able to kill off early mediums? Its literally firing the equivalent of a ballistic missile. You can argue that the comet and other later iterations of mediums shouldn't be as easy to kill however t34s, Cromwells and Shermans, ya that should be a given.

    In terms of doctrine choices ya abilities like stuka and concentrated barrage with the attached air burst upgrade can really hamper choices in terms of howitzer play. Issue with the Elefant/Jadg and other TDs of its kinda mainly comes down to map design and the crappy pathing incorporated into tanks. So yes this makes these types of high damage TDs alot more dangerous, since they can pick at a tank once or twice before the unit can stop spazzing out and back away from it.

  • #25
    2 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058

    What more nerf can be applied to Mark target? Even lover bonus? Less than 35%?
    Btw if ability will stop working after plane shot down, OKW will be totally immune to it.

  • #26
    2 years ago
    PrincessBubblegumPrincessB… Posts: 110

    That types of nerf seems to be like a nerf of 222 or buff of UC's flamethrower as example. 222 after nerf is dead and every UKF player builds a UC and upgrade WASP at even every map. They leave no life or give too much of it to some units. I can realise what happen for LEFH if it will cost fuel. You guys just will see more panzerwerfers and no LEFHs because pwerfer is not so random and gives guaranteed effect, also easier to save from enemies counter. ML-20s fuel cost will just do the same thing for soviets so they will build more katys. Nerf of sturmtiger will just kill this rare unit by the way.
    Some arguments for every discussed thing:

    Stuka Dive Bomb
    As wehr has possibility to one-click kill for soviet arty, allies have the same trick with other types of it. Soviets have FAB-50, Anvils artillery and so on, it is not an argument to nerf SDB. Also this nerf allows bunch of blobbing options what are even now too strong for soviets and UKF.
    SDB also do not affect any of soviet doctrines, some of them has no nerf in that text what seems stupid because Soviets has really OP commanders.

    Elefant/Jagdtiger
    It seems OK ONLY if not just firefly but SU-85, SU-76 will receive big nerfs. I guess m36 can be untouched because USF now is very weak in 4v4 after infantry and mortar nerfs without late game buffs.

    Sturmtiger
    "Mutually exclusive" idea kills another unit like it killed commander Panther in teamgames. Also Sturmtiger has really ridiculous aim time and nice RNG-shots into nothing just for "Save general Blobber from his retardation".
    It is not TOP-1 infantry killer, also teamgames are not about quantity, superheavy superspecialist requires tonn of support.
    TOP-1 infantry killer for now is a Centaur and I do not understand why nobody says that it requires a big nerf of tech cost and quantity.

    Calliope
    It is OP unit, but all faction now underperforms in 4v4. so nerf is not required IMHO.

    **Firefly **
    SU-85 and SU-76 is a bigger balance problem than Firefly. I tell you guys more: in all game mods soviet armor is more OP that british, so you just watch into the wrong side.

    JP4
    It is only 1 OKW schwere-HQ unit what does what Relic wants from it. Pls, do not change anything.

    Mortar-pit
    Mortar pit is OK, but it requires some fuel price so UKF player will pay really something for mistake if it goes down. UKF does not rly need a WASP in UC as alternative to a mortar pit as anti-garrison and if it will be like that this thing will be fine.

    PZIV CT
    This unit underperforms. Specially because it has a ridiculosly stupid gun from ausf.D version of PIV. Aura of this unit does not give rly big effect on troops in late game and it has no veterancy-buffed aura.

    Forward HQ
    1. Now usually soviet players use it not as HQ but as a easily fielded refill-blocker for quick endgame or for keyhouse holding. Aura nerf is not required, this ability requires more CP for activating and emplacing of HQ must be allowed only on friendly territory.
    2. Aura must not have option to work with "For the Motherland" for ally with KV-1 commander.

    STUG III G
    Are you guys serious there? Ostheer Puma's veterancy is dead and Stug has 0 AI potention. This is only one wehrmacht vehicle what performs for cost after 222's nerf., all other are worse version of soviet tanks with bigger cost.
    Stug's veterancy is OK. Is must be like this to stop stupid and unskill spam of cheap OP tanks like T-34-76 or 85 for win.
    Stug's popcap is also OK, it is 1 lower that PAK40's popcap and it is a reason to give for PAK40 normal popcap as 7, just like M1 and QF what are sometimes even better AT-guns.
    Stug-spam does not work because all allied factions have better late game TD's.

    JU87 AT
    It looks like very usegul thing, but commanders are weak. When you last time saw jaeger-infantry commander? Or "Blitzkrieg"-commander? Even "Lightning war" commander is weaker than alternatives and nearly all soviet and UKF commanders.

    PAK43
    How is about comeback-option for late game without fuel, huh? I must manage that every allied faction has option to counter PAK43 easily.

    Static artillery
    It requres decreased manpower cost to 500 and nothing else. OKW fuel-depence is too strong even now.

  • #27
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited May 2017

    @ubermensch said:
    First of all, why shouldn't sturm tiger be able to kill off early mediums? Its literally firing the equivalent of a ballistic missile.

    That's hardly a valid argument for balance. If you want to start describing the real-world traits of the units, the ISU-152 should still be able to shatter Tigers while wiping infantry at the same time. It can't anymore, because it was unfair for the arrival of 1 unit to dictate an entire match as the old ISU once did.

    Not suggesting that the ST is worse than the old ISU (not many things in this game are) but you should come up with a real gameplay reason that going from 640dmg to 560 is seriously handicapping it. Literally any other source of AT in the area greater than a stolen ptrs and that tank is still dying after taking an ST rocket.

  • #28
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268

    @Pastulio said:
    What more nerf can be applied to Mark target? Even lover bonus? Less than 35%?
    Btw if ability will stop working after plane shot down, OKW will be totally immune to it.

    Is it 35% or 30%? Still looking for a definitive answer, I've heard some pros toss around 30% before, but no certainty attached to that.

  • #29
    2 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058
    edited May 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Pastulio said:
    What more nerf can be applied to Mark target? Even lover bonus? Less than 35%?
    Btw if ability will stop working after plane shot down, OKW will be totally immune to it.


    Is it 35% or 30%? Still looking for a definitive answer, I've heard some pros toss around 30% before, but no certainty attached to that.

    +35% damage to target vehicle, spawns an IL-2 recon plane that gives LOS to the marked unit and the marked unit only. The plane can be shot down, denying the LOS, but the increased damage will still apply until the ability duration ends.

    https://www.coh2.org/guides/52852/the-coh2-ability-guide#2426

    I don't have better source. But it gets uppdates.

  • #30
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268

    @Pastulio said:
    +35% damage to target vehicle, spawns an IL-2 recon plane that gives LOS to the marked unit and the marked unit only. The plane can be shot down, denying the LOS, but the increased damage will still apply until the ability duration ends.

    https://www.coh2.org/guides/52852/the-coh2-ability-guide#2426

    I don't have better source. But it gets uppdates.

    Yeah that's probably the right one, I just heard a caster say 30% a few times but I don't think a coh2.org guide would have it wrong. Good stuff, thanks.

  • #31
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    Let's give Hull Down a 5% buff so it'll have 30% received damage, 30% range and -25% reload ;)

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