(all) soviet penals, mortar, maxims, m17, cromwell

#1
3 months ago
TherranTherran Posts: 6
edited May 19 in Balance Feedback

Reposting to be more in line with the required "guidelines."

Over the past two years, the patches aimed at "balancing" the game have deprived Allied players of fun and interesting units. Whereas there is a constant push to make sure Allied units do not have even a scintilla of over-performance, German units exude it. This last patch continued that downward trend. Here are several examples:

M17, which is meant to counter infantry, was nerfed because infantry had trouble countering it.

The Russian 120mm mortar, which is significantly more expensive than the standard mortar and a specialized call-in unit meant to outclass the standard mortar, was nerfed because the standard mortar didn't counter it. It was also nerfed because it had the same range as a pack-howitzer, even though it's the Soviet version of the pack-howitzer and is needed for balance.

Penal Battalions were nerfed because they won engagements against German infantry even though their purpose is to counter infantry. Even when they were good, they were outclassed by late game German infantry and fall off. Now, Assault Pioneers, an insanely overpowered super unit that will instantly kill enemy squads in close quarters and suffers no movement penalties in harsh terrain, have free run of the map and can absolutely crush any squad Russians produce.

The Maxim MG was nerfed because people "were spamming it," even though Germans spam MG's EVERY GAME and the German MG's have twice the range, twice the firing arc, three times the firing speed, twice the suppression, and a veteran ability that lets them kill tanks, all for the same price.

Cromwells, which have less armor and inferior firepower to the German Pazner IV, while costing the same price, had an advantage in mobility. Now, they are too slow to flank and can't accelerate faster going forward than a King Tiger IN REVERSE. The impetus for this change is that Cromwells were used to run over infantry. Yet Germans have numerous methods of countering this, including Panzerfausts and AT rockets, which most often cripple tanks. Not to mention the Axis have the Blitz ability, which doubles the movement speed of their tanks and is a far worse offender in terms of crushing infantry than Cromwells.

In general, it feels as though Allied armies are outclassed by the Germans at all points through the game. For example, Russian T4 units (rockets and a T34) are the same units the Germans get in T2 (rockets) and T3 (Panzer IV). German abilities, across the board, are hands down better than Allied. Perfect example, no offensive ability can be cast in an enemy base except (1) the German mortar barrage and (2) the German Stuka nuke that gives no warning and no flares.

The whole basis behind this game is that Allies have an advantage in the early game and Axis auto-win in the late game. Now, both sides are relatively equal at the start, but by the time mid-game hits, the Axis absolutely dominate. Allied players have to work twice as hard to win any game and it's not right.

These changes are in addition to other past mistakes such as nerfing the Soviet Industry Commander, by replacing the Fuel for Munitions perk with an air drop that gets shot down 9 times out of 10 because the Germans get free AA in their base and buildings and the plane FLIES OVER THE GERMAN BASE. Which, by the way, is the same reason almost all the Allied air based abilities don't work, because German AA covers half the map and they get it for free. Meanwhile Germans get a 5 minute long supply drop off one cast and can stand there collecting resources with absolutely zero threat of getting shot down.

Comments

  • #2
    3 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,676
    Basic factual corrections:
    The 120mm was not nerfed because mortars couldnt counter it. It was nerfed because it was brutally wiping infantry with no counterplay available.

    Penals were nerfed because they were good at all ranges and using cover did not protect you. Not because they beat infantry.

    Sturmpioneers are not super OP. They are not even remotely OP. Conscripts beat them if you stop once you see them and they dont ambush you. They have terrible recieved accuracy. All you have to do is not be at less than 15 range when the fight starts and youll beat them.

    All MGs have identical range barring the vet 1 Vickers which has longer range. The vet 1 can not kill even light tanks unless you reverse them at the MG with hold fire on at 0 range and AFK for 30 seconds. Simply move out of the way.

    Cromwells cost less than PIVs. They are cheaper to tech to as well. They are not slower than KTs. This is a basic objective fact. For your education, the game does not distinguish between reversing and moving forward.

    The stuka can not be fired in base sectors. This was patched out by the balance team. All mortars can barrage bases.

    These are only the basic factual errors that are flat out demonstrably untrue that I can find on my phone.

    If you have any issue with the basic objective indisputable facts I've stated - please show a recent automatch replay in which something to the contrary has happened - i.e. a Panzer IV has costed less than 120 fuel or a stuka has been called in to base sectors.
  • #3
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,800
    edited May 19

    @Lazarus said:
    Sturmpioneers are not super OP....They have terrible received accuracy.

    while i agree they are not super OP, slight correction here, they have a rec acc of .87, same as falls, which is smaller than cons (1.087) rifles (.97) and grens (.91) and are beat out by tommies...who have the same rec acc as pgrens, rangers, JLI and then is stormtroopers (.75 this shocked me actually) and finally obers at .7
    all others are 1 including every soviet squad except cons who are even bigger (partisans are more difficult to hit, which might be part of their problem...)

    ***snipers are 1.15

  • #4
    3 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,676
    @thedarkarmadillo while thats true - the caveat there is that all of those squads with worse rec acc are long ranged squads (cons being the exception because they dont know what the hell they are but then theres also more models so it becomes this whole... thing). The only other mid/short squad that has the same durability for cost as Sturms is Assault Engies, who are also terrible if you dont ambush with them.

    Ill amend that statement as Sturms have terrible durability for a mid ranged squad.
  • #5
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,800
    @lazarus, true. It was more of a rant on the fact that tommies are only larger than exactly 2 units, i mean they ARE british but....
  • #6
    3 months ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 793
    edited May 20

    OK, I agree that it is very difficult as Allii now.

    But as Soviet it is, because Conscripts are still too expensive (240 down to 220) and Molotov isn't non-tec and come too late. Also Ost MG42 should be changed with OKW MG34 to make early game more mobile. Also Püppchen is kind of OP, because it's stealth is too amazing.

    The performance of most abilities and units are OK now, after years. But now they have to balance the game that way, that you don't need a commander to have a chance to win OR make all commanders that way, that all of them have a more wide character !OR! give the player the ability to switch between commanders in-game e.g. investing 6CP points to move from commander to commander.

  • #7
    3 months ago
    mlkmlk Posts: 7

    Totally agree with therran, the game has never been as unbalanced as today ( 4v4 3v3 ). it is obvious.Okw dominates the game

  • #8
    3 months ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,044

    I know it, man.

  • #9
    3 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 625

    Simply put, nerfbatting alot of the cheesey crutch units like Comets, Penals and Light vehicles has exposed some big weaknesses in the allied lineups. Understandably they will need some changes, but teamgames aren't the main concern in balance, where resource inflation and faction design might be causing problems in those game sizes, 1v1 and 2v2 are as balanced as they have been since the "golden era" where Relic actually nailed the SOV and OST lineup before the collossal fuckup that was the WFA releases came along.

    Though half of what you have stated is untrue, cromwells having less firepower than a p4? Sturms OP? Axis mgs killing light vehicles instantly?

    My advice would be to wait, the community team has taken the teamgame meta balance into account and are looking at their options. And anyway, not too sound snide, but welcome to what the Axis players have been putting up with for the last year since the june patch, now do you understand why so many were shouting to high heavens about the imbalance of the game?

  • #10
    2 months ago
    TherranTherran Posts: 6

    @Lazarus said:
    Basic factual corrections:
    The 120mm was not nerfed because mortars couldnt counter it. It was nerfed because it was brutally wiping infantry with no counterplay available.

    Penals were nerfed because they were good at all ranges and using cover did not protect you. Not because they beat infantry.

    Sturmpioneers are not super OP. They are not even remotely OP. Conscripts beat them if you stop once you see them and they dont ambush you. They have terrible recieved accuracy. All you have to do is not be at less than 15 range when the fight starts and youll beat them.

    All MGs have identical range barring the vet 1 Vickers which has longer range. The vet 1 can not kill even light tanks unless you reverse them at the MG with hold fire on at 0 range and AFK for 30 seconds. Simply move out of the way.

    Cromwells cost less than PIVs. They are cheaper to tech to as well. They are not slower than KTs. This is a basic objective fact. For your education, the game does not distinguish between reversing and moving forward.

    The stuka can not be fired in base sectors. This was patched out by the balance team. All mortars can barrage bases.

    These are only the basic factual errors that are flat out demonstrably untrue that I can find on my phone.

    If you have any issue with the basic objective indisputable facts I've stated - please show a recent automatch replay in which something to the contrary has happened - i.e. a Panzer IV has costed less than 120 fuel or a stuka has been called in to base sectors.

    The counter play to 120 mm is the fact that they cost 360 MP and German mortar costs what, 260? You can basically build 2 mortars, micro them, and kill the 120 mm. Or you can buy a pack howitzer. Apparently you think Soviets should pay 50% more for a unit that has no advantage over its rivaling counterpart. Good one.

    Penals were not good at all ranges, they were good at medium and close range. Especially with flamethrowers as it's REQUIRED to get close.

    Sturms are OP, put them in a building and they will win even long range fights against most other early infantry. Get close and they will wipe out 2 conscript squads no problem.

    All MGs do not have identical range, you're totally full of it. Apart from the Vickers, the German MG out ranges and generally outclasses all other MGs.

    Cromwells cost 20 less fuel, big whoop.

    I just got stuka'd in my base several games ago, so yeah.

  • #11
    2 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,676

    @Therran said:

    The counter play to 120 mm is the fact that they cost 360 MP and German mortar costs what, 260? You can basically build 2 mortars, micro them, and kill the 120 mm. Or you can buy a pack howitzer. Apparently you think Soviets should pay 50% more for a unit that has no advantage over its rivaling counterpart. Good one.

    It has longer range, larger AoE, and is the only mortar that can be manned by 1 person making it extremely difficult to wipe. Maybe use the mortar and you'll figure out what the advantages are.

    @Therran said:

    Penals were not good at all ranges, they were good at medium and close range. Especially with flamethrowers as it's REQUIRED to get close.

    Incorrect. Read the patch notes from the Penals changes.

    @Therran said:
    Sturms are OP, put them in a building and they will win even long range fights against most other early infantry. Get close and they will wipe out 2 conscript squads no problem.

    Try not standing on negative cover. You want the green shield for your squads when you're fighting.

    @Therran said:

    All MGs do not have identical range, you're totally full of it. Apart from the Vickers, the German MG out ranges and generally outclasses all other MGs.

    Nope. Screenshot of it or it didn't happen

    @Therran said:

    I just got stuka'd in my base several games ago, so yeah.

    Nope. Screenshot of it or it didn't happen.

  • #12
    2 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 625

    @Therran said:

    The counter play to 120 mm is the fact that they cost 360 MP and German mortar costs what, 260? You can basically build 2 mortars, micro them, and kill the 120 mm. Or you can buy a pack howitzer. Apparently you think Soviets should pay 50% more for a unit that has no advantage over its rivaling counterpart. Good one.

    The current stats being longer range, larger AOE, a long range flare and requiring a full squadwipe to decrew. That alone justifies the 50%price difference, it was nerfed solely because of its ability to wipe the smaller axis squads in single shots.

    Penals were not good at all ranges, they were good at medium and close range. Especially with flamethrowers as it's REQUIRED to get close.

    Penals were and still are excellent at all ranges, they have the highest accuracy rewards in the game from vet. They removed the flamer as it was deemed far too effective on such a large squad, and allowed them to gain veterancy at an insane rate, letting them snowball uncontrollably.

    Sturms are OP, put them in a building and they will win even long range fights against most other early infantry. Get close and they will wipe out 2 conscript squads no problem.

    Sturms aren't Op, most players just panic when they see them running towards their infantry. They have rather awful RA and are only a four man squad, they are only deadly within 15 range so when you see them closing, move to the closest bit of cover if possible and just shoot them.

    All MGs do not have identical range, you're totally full of it. Apart from the Vickers, the German MG out ranges and generally outclasses all other MGs.

    All mgs have the same range; vet 1 vickers excluded, its only variations in their firing arcs that seperates them in terms of weapon behavior.

    Cromwells cost 20 less fuel, big whoop.

    Have better pen, higher speed, better rotation, the tank commander upgrade, free blitz with anvil and smoke shells. All that whilst being 20 fuel cheaper and arriving earlier than the universally acknowledged UP P4.

    I just got stuka'd in my base several games ago, so yeah.

    Then upload the replay and ask Mr_smith to have a look, all offmaps and fixed arty shouldn't be able to be used inside the base sector. It must have been a serious glitch.

  • #13
    2 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,007

    @Lazarus said:

    @Therran said:

    The counter play to 120 mm is the fact that they cost 360 MP and German mortar costs what, 260? You can basically build 2 mortars, micro them, and kill the 120 mm. Or you can buy a pack howitzer. Apparently you think Soviets should pay 50% more for a unit that has no advantage over its rivaling counterpart. Good one.

    It has longer range, larger AoE, and is the only mortar that can be manned by 1 person making it extremely difficult to wipe. Maybe use the mortar and you'll figure out what the advantages are.

    AoE was nerfed hard, everything infantry related spreads better, its scatter is pretty terrible as well.
    It shoots 1 shell at the time ost one shoots 3.
    It lost one man, so its just as durable as regular soviet mortar, so being manned by 1 man became irrelevant.

  • #14
    2 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,676
    Cool story bro. It still has larger AoE than any other mortar.

    Shoots slow, but barrage is extremely accurate. You can also afford to fire from closer than max range to reduce your scatter while still being further from the fight than other mortars.

    Its still more durable than non Soviet weapons teams soooo yknow. Dont care.
  • #16
    2 months ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 793

    @SkysTheLimit Nice written. 1+ But I have too say, the hole game isn't designed to be balanced. Bad fraction design, bad commander design, bad map-designs etc. After I played Blitzkrieg for CoH1 one day ago, it saw it again. They can open the game for modders OR let the community let balance the game/design the game. Sega, don't be like EA.

  • #17
    2 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 625

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Farra13 said:

    LOL no, 2v2 is horrendous right now too. OKW smacks around everyone above 1v1, before coh2charts went down OKW had no less than a 15% edge in winrates in 2v2 over each allied faction in the 1-250 margin.

    First of, you should never use coh2charts.com as evidence of balance, paid_player (the creator) stated explicitly in the first paragraph at the very top of the charts, that his system couldn't take into account differences in skill levels, maps or what factions were against each other. That said, the reason it is currently down is that he is rebuilding it to be able to account for factors like that, allowing it to become a reliable indication of abalnce instead of the current rough guestimate.

    Don't take me for some hardcore axis hater, I'm happy that OST is playable again. Just wish it wasn't at the expense of the allies in anything that's not 1v1. Playing 2v2 AT is my personal favorite, and right now its night and day for me and my partner when we switch sides.

    2v2 is my main mode, though I cannot at all disagree that OKW is not severly overperforming, 2 OST vs any of the allied factions is a great matchup, even if their late game is a bit iffy.

    As for foghting OKW, my experience playing as SOV and USF is that your main strategy should be full agression towards their cuttoff. You cannot currently bleed OKW like other factions, volks and raks are far too cpst efficient so cutting their fuel is the only way to pressure OKW currently. Always expect the 6 min luchs, dual RE or early scout car to handle kubels, skip the light vehicles and rush a medium and finally 50.cals, quad/flaktracks are you best firend against volks/pfussy blobs blobs.

    Was wondering when somebody would decide to make this useless point. Only 1v1 balance was tilted towards allies, so the logical route?

    Only 1v1? Are you mad? Team games were unplayable as it was just cheese on cheese, Penal/guard blob in t-85, 1919 blob/jacksons into calliope spam and comet/lm spam. That's all there was, every game. Yes the axis lineup being geared towards lategame armour gives them a stronger advantage in teamgames, but let's not kid ourselves that is wasn't rare for them to survive they onslaught of the mid game, let alone hold enough fuel to comeback in the later phases.

  • #18
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,663
    edited June 6

    @Farra13 said:
    Yes the axis lineup being geared towards lategame armour gives them a stronger advantage in teamgames, but let's not kid ourselves that is wasn't rare for them to survive they onslaught of the mid game, let alone hold enough fuel to comeback in the later phases.

    "They" means OST. OKW has had an absurd opening in team games for a long time. You should really mean OST when you say them, OKW has been dominating team games pretty much since being added to the game. Kubel is one of the most handy early game units, and has been in different ways during OKWs entire run. From being the mobile suppression right off the bat, to now allowing the OKW to send their infantry wherever they want without worrying about back-capping like everyone else, it has given them the most unique opening for a long time, and its far more potent in team games.

    @Farra13 said:
    Only 1v1? Are you mad? Team games were unplayable as it was just cheese on cheese, Penal/guard blob in t-85, 1919 blob/jacksons into calliope spam and comet/lm spam. That's all there was, every game.

    Unplayable for OST... OKW, now by far the most played faction, has never had a problem in team games, they were weak in 1v1s. Yes 2v2 against 2 OST is a great matchup now. Too bad 4 out of every 5 2v2s as allies you get double OKW currently.

    @Farra13 said:
    First of, you should never use coh2charts.com as evidence of balance, paid_player (the creator) stated explicitly in the first paragraph at the very top of the charts, that his system couldn't take into account differences in skill levels, maps or what factions were against each other. That said, the reason it is currently down is that he is rebuilding it to be able to account for factors like that, allowing it to become a reliable indication of abalnce instead of the current rough guestimate.

    Oh please, for the love of God, spare me. I'm the first person to say this exact point every time we bring up the charts, and that's because the disparities have never been this great. "Never" before has one faction had more than a 10% advantage over each of the ones it plays against in 2v2 for more than a week (OKW was actually at more than 15% over each of them). Happened once for USF during, when? Oh yeah, the Combined Arms Glitch when Pershings could shoot like an MG42.

    You shouldn't use winrates for gauging individual unit balance. If you think one faction winning a lot more than the others means nothing whatsoever, you're very wrong.

    Props to the 1 US guy in the top 10 that managed a double-digit win-streak. Interestingly enough there are 6 double-digit winstreaks between the 2 axis factions in Top 10 2v2. 1 across all 3 allied in same margin. Yeah, that means nothing....

  • #19
    2 months ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,044

    I like how people on CoH forums always deny obvios.

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