Fall Balance Preview Feedback

#1
1 year ago
Kyle_REKyle_RE Posts: 483 admin

Please post all balance related feedback that is directly related to the changes in the Fall Balance Preview mod here.

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Comments

  • #2
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,802
    Having not yet played and only looked over the changes (for now) i must say there are alot of interesting changes, some sound great right off the bat, others (the never seen flamhetzer now needing t3 or an increased price?)
    Also, changing cap territory on is-2 and kv-1 are great changes, but why leave it on the kv-2 instead of even hull down as a temp confuses me...

    But looks like a solid start for sure!
  • #3
    1 year ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951
    edited July 2017

    Yeah, lots of good changes taken from the balance team's unofficial design. A few things I would look at though:

    -While the mortar pit change is a huge relief (both playing with and against), and kills one of the biggest reasons sim city works, quite a lot of its cheese is still in play. The full changes in the team's mod allocated them to a low-pop defensive role, bulwarking a line rather than being the line. I would definitely use more of their suggestions for them, especially for Bofors suppression and the changes to the 2 doctrinal repair options.

    -Bulldozer buffs are awesome, but its attack-ground should be brought in line with its normal attack to prevent cheesy wipes.

    -Its probably a bit out of scope, but the repair standardization would be nice to see.

    Its a pretty good patch though and really grabs a lot of the best over-arching changes from the Mod Team's work. The call-in meta changes alone are such a wicked shake-up, I'm really excited to see what new doctrines I can get away with playing now.

    EDIT: Also, RIP Hetzer, you're not even worth trolling with now

  • #4
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722
    edited July 2017

    "CALL-IN UNIT CHANGES

    A major goal for the Fall Balance Preview mod will be test some changes made to how call-ins work, primarily focused around call-in units.

    The changes proposed will either lock the call-in unit to tech, increase its call-in cooldown duration or in most cases, give the call-in unit an inflated pre-tech cost, which will be reduced to normal levels once the unit’s corresponding tech has been achieved.
    The intent behind these changes is to make choosing call-in units more meaningful, a choice that is dependent on the course of a match rather than a guaranteed, pre-ordained decision. This will also help prevent some of the call-in spam we are seeing from some strategies, making losing one of these units more impactful.

    The following call-in units have been adjusted to reflect the changes mentioned above:"

    The call-in change are all wrong...

    When T34/85 and Easy8 started requiring teching their cost went down.

    Now Ostheer have the one of the highest teching cost yet their tanks see no discount making their late call-in vehicles even less cost efficient. BP 3 for command PZIV?

    In addition OKW Ostwind sees no cost reduction although it tech cost is higher than Ostheer

    Hezter a units that greatly UP see tech requirement not discount or buff (contrary to units that Dozer and KV-8 that buffed although they perform better)

    One of the basic change for call in units limited to 1 is not implemented, the cooldown for the ability should start when the units is lost and not when it arrives.

  • #5
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    251 Walking Stuka

    The AOE and scatter have been adjusted to make the unit less devastating, particularly against team weapons that it could generally wipe out in one barrage. In return the cost has been reduced and the population made to match the other rocket launchers.
    • Health from 320 to 160.
    • Cost from 390/100 to 360/85.
    • Build-time from 60 to 45.
    • Population from 14 to 12.
    • AOE damage from 1/0.15/0.05 to 1/0.15/0.01.
    • AOE distance from 2/4/6 to 0.5/5.5/7.
    • Angle Scatter from 0 to 9.
    • Distance scatter max from 0 to 10.5.
    • Distance scatter ratio from 0 to 0.0875.
    • FOW scatter multipliers from 1 to 1.25.

    LOL WAT ?

    WOW, now "it match other rocket launchers".
    Too bad it has only 6 rockets that spread on a long line with huge gaps, it soesn't guarantee any wipe but 4vs4 blobs...
    Meanwhile is still utter crap in 1vs1 and i haven't seen it nor used it since ages.

    And all it needed was a simple normal circular barrage option, with scattered rockets in it rather than this unrealistic creeping nonsense that only affect stupit teammodes were blobbing is meta.

    To make it worse, now it has same durability of panzerwerfer and stuka, BUT SAME RANGE.
    The durability point was that, given inferior range of stuka, it needed it to get closer to barrage without being melted like panzw and katy, perfectly safe from behind frontlines, using long range barrages.

    Now the longest cooldown rocket arty is "less devastating (lol)" against team weapons, but stuff like katy and pwerfer well placed can still do it without requiring the shit ton amount of micro and aiming the stuka does (rarely team weapons ever get out before second katy barrage, and pwerfer is just as devastating).

    Basically the only good thing stuka had was it's ability to wipe teamweapons....

  • #6
    1 year ago
    EsxileEsxile Posts: 15

    Now that OKW have access to smoke, can we take back the incendiary grenade from volks and give them back their old regular grenade? So they are not anymore able to deny any kind of cover.

  • #7
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    Flammpanzer 38 ‘Hetzer’

    • Call-In without Schwerer Panzer Headquarters: 350/125.

    A subpar flame vehcile with paper armor, extremely underused and UP, in tier 3.
    Why not tier 0, unlocked after first truck was set ?

  • #8
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @Esxile ha detto:
    Now that OKW have access to smoke, can we take back the incendiary grenade from volks and give them back their old regular grenade? So they are not anymore able to deny any kind of cover.

    At some point, smoke or not, they are gonna need something to kill/move away garrison, what will it be, model 24 ? LOL.

    And when okw goes mechanized ?
    It will need 85 fuel for a completely UP stuka for doing something other factions do with a grenade, molotov, flamethrower....

  • #9
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,802
    With the addition of smoke units like sturm pios will have a muvh easier time, slapping the flame nade on them would seem fitting, kinda makes THEM an all in one squad, but they at least bleed....
  • #10
    1 year ago
    ColonelRadecColonelRa… Posts: 52
    edited July 2017

    Introduction

    Awesome changes! Most of them feel right and a great relief. But a few still have my doubts or don't feel necessary.
    I'll be back later too offer my test experience but I would like to point out some changes that are left out and should be included or considered.

    In scope

    Danger of the smoke and fire grenade combo...

    I'm not a fan of the fire grenade, specially combined with the stgs. This combination is deadly as they deny cover and the dps can wipe squad in less than seconds. Although I like the smoke ability, the fire grenade needs to be changed. Either adding a timer or as I would prefer changing it.

    Hollow round ability

    This will overlap with the raketen as the new round can be deadly combined with shrecks and faust.

    Is-2 and the HE

    It's a yes and a no. The Is 2 already has great anti inf(well at least once vet) this seems like a bit too much. Making the main gun behave like the new ISU wouldn't be better? Still the ability needs to be replace but maybe with something like something increase AP or accuracy which is average.

    ISU-152 is still a ''meh''

    This thing depends still to much on rng, now even more to deal with inf. Not to mention that units still clump up to some cover. To make it more attractive would be to reduce the switching ammo to 4 and adding deflecting damage to the AP rounds. If it were me I would eliminate the switch ammo and add max limit of unit kill of 2.

    Out of scope

    Werh early meta with flame halftrack.

    This unit can appear from 5-6 mins to burn everything and cause a huge setback for allies. I get it why it's a favorite. Super speed, range and it's ridiculous damage. It vets fast due to the damage output making it even harder to kill for the speed bonus. If you don't rush a AT gun then you are in trouble, but this is a pain to get in early game. Players concentrate on inf in the first minutes, so spending on the AT will hurt your advance. Forgot to mention the almost instant kill on garrisoned units. So please take a look at the unit and maybe reduce its dps to match the other flamethrowers.

    UKF and the hardships with vehicles, they need a snare.

    Fighting vs UKF with vehicles barely has the risk like other factions. They have no core inf to have some kind of tension or punish to those that make mistakes. Vehicles come and go without worry. Kitting your early AT's if you don't have a bofor. This produces obligated metas like picking the tank hunter commander. Mines are not reliable due to you must guess the path and that the enemy takes the it. The Piat is low damage and requires ammo which is low on the starting minutes, also forces players to have 2 which is a bad idea at the beginning. Reducing greatly the anti-inf output in the early stages of the game which is so important during that phase. Solution? To maintain asymmetrical design it would be a great respond to add them to the Sappers, they would have less range than the tank hunter variant and they require the grenade upgrade. Increase the fuel cost of by +5. The other response would be to give them to tommies, but they would become like the other factions.

    Conclusion

    Hope considering these two changes that are ruining the gameplay at some matches. So far good changes and already can't wait for them to go live.

  • #11
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    With the addition of smoke units like sturm pios will have a muvh easier time, slapping the flame nade on them would seem fitting, kinda makes THEM an all in one squad, but they at least bleed....

    Without real combat bonuses by mid game sturms aren't going anywhere, hammered by late game infantry, they will lose 3 models before even going near the building whenever they don't get smoke support, and we can't assume that a player will always get an isg regardless of the situation.
    And for mechanized ?.....

  • #12
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,802
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > With the addition of smoke units like sturm pios will have a muvh easier time, slapping the flame nade on them would seem fitting, kinda makes THEM an all in one squad, but they at least bleed....
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Without real combat bonuses by mid game sturms aren't going anywhere, hammered by late game infantry, they will lose 3 models before even going near the building whenever they don't get smoke support, and we can't assume that a player will always get an isg regardless of the situation.
    > And for mechanized ?.....

    Not sure where you get the "no real combat bonuses" thing.
    At vet 2 they get -23% received accuracy (bringimg them from their respectable .87 to a nasty .67) and 30% cooldown reduction,
    vet 3 they get a stun grenade
    Vet 4 they get 20% more accuracy and ANOTHER -23% rec acc (bringing them down to an incredible .51 target size)
    And vet 5 provides a massive 40% accuracy.

    If you call that "no combat bonuses" then nobody gets combat bonuses...
  • #13
    1 year ago
    EsxileEsxile Posts: 15

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    @Esxile ha detto:
    Now that OKW have access to smoke, can we take back the incendiary grenade from volks and give them back their old regular grenade? So they are not anymore able to deny any kind of cover.

    At some point, smoke or not, they are gonna need something to kill/move away garrison, what will it be, model 24 ? LOL.

    And when okw goes mechanized ?
    It will need 85 fuel for a completely UP stuka for doing something other factions do with a grenade, molotov, flamethrower....

    So other factions can do it with a regular grenade but not OKW. Interesting. Not to mention not all factions have access to flame damage without picking the right doctrine.
    Now OKW have access to smoke, the flamnade must go away.

  • #14
    1 year ago
    capiquacapiqua Posts: 270

    Blance, suggestions, inconsistencies:

    -I have done a test with Ostewind wehr. 20 seconds (represents one pass) down IL2 Strumovick when ability is 60sg.
    I suggest that be 2 passes (40s) because there is a one-pass ability.
    -ATgun M42 sov can not enter in M5 HT.
    -LeIg18 spawn in T2 instead of off-map (This remains as in coh2live)
    -Obers spawn in T3 instead of off-map (This remains as in coh2live)

    Request add more scope to FBP:
    -Should standarized smokes enter into FBP
    -Exploit easy abandoned Sturmtiger. This has been fixed here?
    -Sherman dozer if have changues, but Brummbar does not enter into FBP, And it's more OP.
    -RedBallExpress house. It's easy to fix this bug in ToolMods.

  • #15
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722
    edited July 2017

    "The prioritized scope for the team game related balance changes has been focused around Tank Destroyers & On-Map Artillery."

    Changes to TDs are mostly in the wrong direction. Before WFA release Ostheer had to defend until T3 and use the PZIV for to push. Currently the PZIV is a unit with very small window of opportunity and most people use T3 for stug.

    Now lets see the changes to Elephant:

    _"Elefant
    The Elefant has received a damage reduction to reduce the unit’s effectiveness **against medium tanks and tank destroyers. **Previously, units like the Elefant were found to be too dominant in team games thanks to their ability to shutdown all forms of Allied armour while remaining relatively population efficient.
    • Call-in cost without Battlephase 3: 900/310.
    • Damage from 320 to 280.
    • Population from 20 to 23."_

    Now the Elephant is hit with a triple nerf because it overperform vs mediums due to high damage and penetration. But Elephant actually has a weak spot and that is accuracy:
    5% (0)--3.75%(35)--2.50%(70)
    But most of allied TDs act as mini Elephants since the only have 10-15 less range. So if the Elephant is the benchmark same rules should apply to allied TD. Elephant does get a bonus accuracy at vet 3 x1.3 but is rather difficult to get.

    "M36 ‘Jackson’ Tank Destroyer
    To push the M36 into the role of heavy tank hunter, we have increased the unit’s health and accuracy to better allow the unit to be more aggressive when assaulting hostile tanks, but have slightly reduced the range and increased the cost to compensate.
    • Health from 480 to 600
    • Accuracy from 0.06/0.045/0.03 to 0.06/0.05/0.04
    • Fixed an issue where HVAP Rounds were unresponsive when switching targets
    • Range from 60 to 55
    • Cost from 350/125 to 400/145"

    Now if we follow the the Elephant the M36 at max range 55 should have 3.03% accuracy and that is with counting the vet 2 x1.3 accuracy bonus and the fact that although it has its HP boosted it still have 75% accuracy compared to 50% most other have. The accuracy of M36 a actually need to go down and not up.

    BRITISH
    M4A2 Sherman Firefly

    We are lowering the accuracy of the Firefly to be on-par with other tank destroyers and reducing its moving accuracy to be in-line with its role as an anti-armour hunter.

    Tulips have also been modified, mainly for team games, to prevent devastating alpha strikes. The rockets will no longer completely stop a tank’s movement to prevent them from cancelling a player’s movement commands.
    • 17 pounder accuracy from 0.08/0.07/0.05 to 0.055/0.045/0.4
    • Moving accuracy from 0.75 to 0.5
    • Tulips no longer cancels move commands upon stun.

    Similarly for firefly the accuracy should go down to around 2.86

    Jagdpanzer IV

    The Jagdpanzer IV is receiving a reduction in terms of its veterancy power. Previously, a veteran Jagdpanzer proved to be too powerful due to its incredibly high damage when attacking from stealth, ability to self-spot without penalty to its max range, while also being very well-protected against tank shells. The Jagdpanzer stealth capabilities is also being moved in-line with other vehicles.
    • Detection radius from 10 to 20.
    Veterancy Changes
    • Veterancy 5 First-Strike damage from 400 to 200.
    • Veterancy 2 sight bonus replaced by 20% weapon accuracy.
    • Veterancy 2 armor bonus removed.

    Similarly for JP the accuracy should go down to around 2.86 that does not actually need more accuracy at vet 2 what it need is more penetration._

    Jagdtiger
    The Jagdtiger is receiving significant changes to lower its dominance in team games. The changes will make the Jagdtiger less potent against the majority of Allied. At the same time, Support-Fire will now be available without the need for veterancy to allow the Jagdtiger to support attacks against non-vehicle targets. Support-Fire has been modified in terms of damage output as the ability no longer collides with terrain or landscape.
    • Call-In without Schwerer Panzer Headquarters: 900MP/350FU.
    • Accuracy from 0.06/0.05/0.04 to 0.05/0.0375/0.025. (Matches Elefant accuracy)
    • Damage from 320 to 280.
    • Range from 85 to 78.
    • Supporting Fire range from 125 to 85.
    • Veterancy 4 rotation bonus removed.
    • Engine upgrade no longer provides a 20% rotation bonus.
    • Population from 21 to 24.
    • Jagdtigers now suffer a short stun upon receiving penetrating hits on rear armor. Ignored when the Jagdtiger reaches veterancy 5.

    Supporting Fire
    • Supporting Fire projectile now ignores terrain/landscape.
    • Supporting Fire now available without veterancy.
    • Veterancy 1 increases Supporting Fire rounds from 3 to 5.
    • Jagdtiger Supporting Fire scatter from 6 to 8. Distance Scatter Max from 8.4 to 10
    • Supporting FIre mid AOE from 2.25 to 1.5

    As for the jagtiger accuracy should go down to around 2.2 .

    To sum up the reason why slower medium tanks are not cost efficient is that heavy TDs that can reliably penetrate them are far too accurate at max range. The accuracy at max range need to go down. In addition the far penetration for units like the SU-76 and Stug III also needs to go down.

  • #16
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    OKW smoke is a godsend for the faction. I was able to use it to obscure vision and roll up a Hetzer and an Ober to a defensive line and focus down the AT so the Hetzer could roast the MGs. It's finally usable even with the unnecessary cost change.

    That said, OKW can not go forward with smoke without fixing Volks. It is essential that a Volk nerf is packaged in with the smoke change, otherwise OKW will just push and push and never stop. Granted - this was a 1 v 1 map so I didn't notice my lack of FRP as much but it still causes concern none the less.

  • #17
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @Esxile ha detto:

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    @Esxile ha detto:
    Now that OKW have access to smoke, can we take back the incendiary grenade from volks and give them back their old regular grenade? So they are not anymore able to deny any kind of cover.

    At some point, smoke or not, they are gonna need something to kill/move away garrison, what will it be, model 24 ? LOL.

    And when okw goes mechanized ?
    It will need 85 fuel for a completely UP stuka for doing something other factions do with a grenade, molotov, flamethrower....

    So other factions can do it with a regular grenade but not OKW. Interesting. Not to mention not all factions have access to flame damage without picking the right doctrine.
    Now OKW have access to smoke, the flamnade must go away.

    Simply the model 24 is broken
    Any faction get nondoc flame damage but usf.
    All the factions get several anti garrisons tools, like non broken grenades, flmathrowers, wasp, flametrack, pack howie, tier 0 mortars.
    Given the inability of isg to deal consistant damage to something bigger that a wooden 5x5 m^2 wooden cabin in this game, isg isn't a valid counter either, so okw has only flame nades.
    Additionally, if we wanna look at factions comparisons, okw is getting smoke linked to tier 1.
    Any faction instead has multiple ways to provide covering smoke REGARDLESS of the teching choices.

  • #18
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268

    I'm very happy with the Kubel change. I thought it was very dumb that the rear and frontal armor values were the same, and adding health while nerfing the armor also makes its performance less rng-based. Also stops it from being so dominant against the US. I would like to see it be unable to capture while in combat, but that might just be me.

    I do not understand how we are still patching this game without any touches to volks. The passive healing at vet 3 needs to be completely done away with, especially now that the medical crates on sturms aren't completely useless. The FRP delay is a start, but the unit itself needs to be in-scope.

  • #19
    1 year ago
    MarcusMarcus Posts: 5

    Good joke with 251 Stuka and Hetzer! I know why they nerf Stuka someone who play Coh2 online in 4vs4 and he is a bloobing player gets wipe of squads. That description of Stuka nerf is just lol! And if Relic thinks this 4 guys is community of the game then gg! Why this guys just put a circle area just like in COH 1 , Walking Stuka, when you shoot for far, larger circle when shoot from closer, small circle! Flame Hetzer who use this crap unit and that crap commander in 3vs3, 4vs4? OOOO yes wait now we have +2 crap commanders who just eat manpower+fuel for pak43+static arty! At least COH have 3 doctrines but unique and good, not 21 commanders with same craps abilities! Sorryyy my bad maybe Encirclement D, Partisan T., Soviet H. I. etc have some unique! Some changes are good some just jokes!

  • #20
    1 year ago

    here is what you can do

    copy and paste OKW veterancy change from EFA revamp to make OKW more balanced
    because OKW already have strong upgrades that can out gun most allied infantry in later stages

    and one more thing would be nice

    m1 garand rifle near accuracy should be buffed to make rifleman deadly to prevent OKW from musciling trough

  • #21
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017
    1. > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
      > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
      > > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
      > > With the addition of smoke units like sturm pios will have a muvh easier time, slapping the flame nade on them would seem fitting, kinda makes THEM an all in one squad, but they at least bleed....
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Without real combat bonuses by mid game sturms aren't going anywhere, hammered by late game infantry, they will lose 3 models before even going near the building whenever they don't get smoke support, and we can't assume that a player will always get an isg regardless of the situation.
      > > And for mechanized ?.....
      >
      > Not sure where you get the "no real combat bonuses" thing.
      > At vet 2 they get -23% received accuracy (bringimg them from their respectable .87 to a nasty .67) and 30% cooldown reduction,
      > vet 3 they get a stun grenade
      > Vet 4 they get 20% more accuracy and ANOTHER -23% rec acc (bringing them down to an incredible .51 target size)
      > And vet 5 provides a massive 40% accuracy.
      >
      > If you call that "no combat bonuses" then nobody gets combat bonuses...

    Look son, a vet 2 combat bonus that they will never reach without shrecks damaging vehicles, which cripple their dps anyway making them useless against infantry and mostly useless against vehicles anyway.

    Because, before any of this will ever come, infantry will starts moving togheter and get bar/bren.
    Or you wanna telf that you have ever seen a vet 2 sturm without shrecks lol ?
    Concussion grenade is just as broken and underused as model 24.

  • #22
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited July 2017

    @Vipper said:
    But most of allied TDs act as mini Elephants since the only have 10-15 less range. So if the Elephant is the benchmark same rules should apply to allied TD.

    What? Why would a 400 armor unit be the benchmark for units that usually can't bounce anything larger than a .50 cal? From your argument it looks far more like the elefants accuracy should be buffed, especially since it's maybe getting a damage nerf. Not as big a deal to have better accuracy if you can't 2 shot mediums.

    And if the Jackson's cost is going to 145 fuel, that small acc. buff is hardly unfair. It reloads almost as a slow as a panther, while only having 5 more range and still much less protection. That said I'm still wondering how the Ost Panther's accuracy is being left untouched.

  • #23
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722
    edited July 2017

    The armor of vehicle has nothing to with the accuracy of its gun.

    As I have explained many times TDs are too accurate at max range accuracy need to go down not buffed as they did with M36.

  • #24
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,802
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > * > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > With the addition of smoke units like sturm pios will have a muvh easier time, slapping the flame nade on them would seem fitting, kinda makes THEM an all in one squad, but they at least bleed....
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Without real combat bonuses by mid game sturms aren't going anywhere, hammered by late game infantry, they will lose 3 models before even going near the building whenever they don't get smoke support, and we can't assume that a player will always get an isg regardless of the situation.
    > > > And for mechanized ?.....
    > >
    > > Not sure where you get the "no real combat bonuses" thing.
    > > At vet 2 they get -23% received accuracy (bringimg them from their respectable .87 to a nasty .67) and 30% cooldown reduction,
    > > vet 3 they get a stun grenade
    > > Vet 4 they get 20% more accuracy and ANOTHER -23% rec acc (bringing them down to an incredible .51 target size)
    > > And vet 5 provides a massive 40% accuracy.
    > >
    > > If you call that "no combat bonuses" then nobody gets combat bonuses...
    >
    > Look son, a vet 2 combat bonus that they will never reach without shrecks damaging vehicles, which cripple their dps anyway making them useless against infantry and mostly useless against vehicles anyway.
    >
    > Because, before any of this will ever come, infantry will starts moving togheter and get bar/bren.
    > Or you wanna telf that you have ever seen a vet 2 sturm without shrecks lol ?
    > Concussion grenade is just as broken and underused as model 24.

    Im no pro, but im not awful either, i frequently get my sturms up to the higher vets, 3,4 and some times SOMETIMES even 5, the trick is to not lean on a shrek like its all the AT you will ever get and use them like a flanker unit. Prey on the weak, the flanking squad, bait with your volks and get those sturms in there.
    Also youve been saying that they get no combat vet (on 2 seperate threads) when shown that isnt so, you say that even vet 2 is unattainable? What exactly do you want then? -50 recc acc and +80% accuracy at vet 1? I think you are mistaking sturms as a balance issue when its clear its got to be a user issue....
  • #25
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited July 2017

    @Vipper said:
    The armor of vehicle has nothing to with the accuracy of its gun.

    How can you think that? Please explain how its not a bigger deal for a weak fragile speedy AT unit to have worse accuracy than something that can take a massive amount of punishment? That logic makes absolutely no sense. Every stat is related, you can't just slice up the unit into completely different parts.

    As for accuracy, I'm well aware what you think about TDs and it being too good. I just don't agree that sweeping all TDs under one rug makes any sense. The Jackson (live version) is easily the worst of the 3 allied stock TDs so I do not understand why you keep asserting that all of them together are 1 problem.

    When the 2 units have a difference of 270 armor (more than most units possess at all) the armor is relevant no matter what stat you're talking about, and in all likelihood there's little use in comparing them.

  • #26
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722
    edited July 2017

    As long a unit out-ranges another its armor and HP are less important then the gun.

    The M36% does not have worse accuracy than Elephant it has around x140 better and about x210% better on the move. In addition it get even more accuracy at vet 2. It should not have so much more accuracy than the Elephant especially since the Elephant is being nerfed for overperfrorming.

  • #27
    1 year ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    edited July 2017
    No one's gonna mention it but how do the balance team call the PAK43 on par, in terms of pop cap, with the UKF pounder emplacement; of which has brace, a flare ability, can self repair with doctrines, can be upgraded with extra health with a specific doctrine(?) and can be garrisoned.

    I know its popcap was very high but it should be higher than the PAK43. Or the latter should be lowered a bit.

    Lastly there are a lot of changes I do not agree with. I'll have to compile them all when at on the computer. Essentially a lot of team game problem solutions are badly affecting 1v1 balance.
  • #28
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited July 2017

    @Vipper said:
    As long a unit out-ranges another its armor and HP are less important then the gun.

    In what scenario? A 1 on 1 fight with another tank? Are we analyzing the elefant in a vacuum or when its actually being used in a company of heroes match? Cause having 400 armor and 1040 hitpoints matters a great deal to the balance of the real game, whether or not it works in a controlled testing environment is something else entirely.

    The Jackson now has 15 less range the Ely, while having 440 fewer health and 270 fewer armor. Those things being true means missing a shot is a far bigger deal for the Jackson than the Ely.

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    No one's gonna mention it but how do the balance team call the PAK43 on par, in terms of pop cap, with the UKF pounder emplacement; of which has brace, a flare ability, can self repair with doctrines, can be upgraded with extra health with a specific doctrine(?) and can be garrisoned.

    And the 43 can still fire thru buildings all the time, the 17 pounder can only do it with its special ability. That's pretty significant, gives you much more flexibility on where you can place it.

  • #29
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > * > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > With the addition of smoke units like sturm pios will have a muvh easier time, slapping the flame nade on them would seem fitting, kinda makes THEM an all in one squad, but they at least bleed....
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Without real combat bonuses by mid game sturms aren't going anywhere, hammered by late game infantry, they will lose 3 models before even going near the building whenever they don't get smoke support, and we can't assume that a player will always get an isg regardless of the situation.
    > > > And for mechanized ?.....
    > >
    > > Not sure where you get the "no real combat bonuses" thing.
    > > At vet 2 they get -23% received accuracy (bringimg them from their respectable .87 to a nasty .67) and 30% cooldown reduction,
    > > vet 3 they get a stun grenade
    > > Vet 4 they get 20% more accuracy and ANOTHER -23% rec acc (bringing them down to an incredible .51 target size)
    > > And vet 5 provides a massive 40% accuracy.
    > >
    > > If you call that "no combat bonuses" then nobody gets combat bonuses...
    >
    > Look son, a vet 2 combat bonus that they will never reach without shrecks damaging vehicles, which cripple their dps anyway making them useless against infantry and mostly useless against vehicles anyway.
    >
    > Because, before any of this will ever come, infantry will starts moving togheter and get bar/bren.
    > Or you wanna telf that you have ever seen a vet 2 sturm without shrecks lol ?
    > Concussion grenade is just as broken and underused as model 24.

    Im no pro, but im not awful either, i frequently get my sturms up to the higher vets, 3,4 and some times SOMETIMES even 5, the trick is to not lean on a shrek like its all the AT you will ever get and use them like a flanker unit. Prey on the weak, the flanking squad, bait with your volks and get those sturms in there.
    Also youve been saying that they get no combat vet (on 2 seperate threads) when shown that isnt so, you say that even vet 2 is unattainable? What exactly do you want then? -50 recc acc and +80% accuracy at vet 1? I think you are mistaking sturms as a balance issue when its clear its got to be a user issue....

    @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > * > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > With the addition of smoke units like sturm pios will have a muvh easier time, slapping the flame nade on them would seem fitting, kinda makes THEM an all in one squad, but they at least bleed....
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Without real combat bonuses by mid game sturms aren't going anywhere, hammered by late game infantry, they will lose 3 models before even going near the building whenever they don't get smoke support, and we can't assume that a player will always get an isg regardless of the situation.
    > > > And for mechanized ?.....
    > >
    > > Not sure where you get the "no real combat bonuses" thing.
    > > At vet 2 they get -23% received accuracy (bringimg them from their respectable .87 to a nasty .67) and 30% cooldown reduction,
    > > vet 3 they get a stun grenade
    > > Vet 4 they get 20% more accuracy and ANOTHER -23% rec acc (bringing them down to an incredible .51 target size)
    > > And vet 5 provides a massive 40% accuracy.
    > >
    > > If you call that "no combat bonuses" then nobody gets combat bonuses...
    >
    > Look son, a vet 2 combat bonus that they will never reach without shrecks damaging vehicles, which cripple their dps anyway making them useless against infantry and mostly useless against vehicles anyway.
    >
    > Because, before any of this will ever come, infantry will starts moving togheter and get bar/bren.
    > Or you wanna telf that you have ever seen a vet 2 sturm without shrecks lol ?
    > Concussion grenade is just as broken and underused as model 24.

    Im no pro, but im not awful either, i frequently get my sturms up to the higher vets, 3,4 and some times SOMETIMES even 5, the trick is to not lean on a shrek like its all the AT you will ever get and use them like a flanker unit. Prey on the weak, the flanking squad, bait with your volks and get those sturms in there.
    Also youve been saying that they get no combat vet (on 2 seperate threads) when shown that isnt so, you say that even vet 2 is unattainable? What exactly do you want then? -50 recc acc and +80% accuracy at vet 1? I think you are mistaking sturms as a balance issue when its clear its got to be a user issue....

    @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > * > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > With the addition of smoke units like sturm pios will have a muvh easier time, slapping the flame nade on them would seem fitting, kinda makes THEM an all in one squad, but they at least bleed....
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Without real combat bonuses by mid game sturms aren't going anywhere, hammered by late game infantry, they will lose 3 models before even going near the building whenever they don't get smoke support, and we can't assume that a player will always get an isg regardless of the situation.
    > > > And for mechanized ?.....
    > >
    > > Not sure where you get the "no real combat bonuses" thing.
    > > At vet 2 they get -23% received accuracy (bringimg them from their respectable .87 to a nasty .67) and 30% cooldown reduction,
    > > vet 3 they get a stun grenade
    > > Vet 4 they get 20% more accuracy and ANOTHER -23% rec acc (bringing them down to an incredible .51 target size)
    > > And vet 5 provides a massive 40% accuracy.
    > >
    > > If you call that "no combat bonuses" then nobody gets combat bonuses...
    >
    > Look son, a vet 2 combat bonus that they will never reach without shrecks damaging vehicles, which cripple their dps anyway making them useless against infantry and mostly useless against vehicles anyway.
    >
    > Because, before any of this will ever come, infantry will starts moving togheter and get bar/bren.
    > Or you wanna telf that you have ever seen a vet 2 sturm without shrecks lol ?
    > Concussion grenade is just as broken and underused as model 24.

    Im no pro, but im not awful either, i frequently get my sturms up to the higher vets, 3,4 and some times SOMETIMES even 5, the trick is to not lean on a shrek like its all the AT you will ever get and use them like a flanker unit. Prey on the weak, the flanking squad, bait with your volks and get those sturms in there.
    Also youve been saying that they get no combat vet (on 2 seperate threads) when shown that isnt so, you say that even vet 2 is unattainable? What exactly do you want then? -50 recc acc and +80% accuracy at vet 1? I think you are mistaking sturms as a balance issue when its clear its got to be a user issue....

    You can't read apparently.
    The problem is not sturm shreck (which, by the way, are incredibly inefficient with the 90 muni per shreck cost and the 300 mp per squad and CAN't be your only at, you will always need 2-3 raketen).

    The problem is that, while shrecks helps sturm to vet up, once you gave sturm shreck they become useless regardless of their scaling since the dps of the squad has been lowered of 25%, and losing a single model means losing 50% of the dps.

    So sturms have vet bonuses that could make them a good shock unit, but won't go beyond vet 2 without the shreck upgrade, which will make them a bad shock unit anyway.

    So no, reaching vet 2 on a non shreck sturm squad is a pain in the ass.

    Panzergrens starts with less RA and more dps by stock, which allows them to deal damage and vet up with their stg, thing sturm can't do beyond 5 min mark, where infantry moves togheter and starts getting upgrades, while sturm are still at vet 1, with no boost in combat performances.

    And no, isn't a user issue if meta in pro championship is 2 sturm with minesweepers that never engage in combat after 5 min.

  • #30
    1 year ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    What's up with the nerfing of the Kubel lol? Especially when you don't bother to re-arrange or fix its veterancy bonuses.

  • #31
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,802
    edited July 2017
    [quote]
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > * > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > > > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > > With the addition of smoke units like sturm pios will have a muvh easier time, slapping the flame nade on them would seem fitting, kinda makes THEM an all in one squad, but they at least bleed....
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Without real combat bonuses by mid game sturms aren't going anywhere, hammered by late game infantry, they will lose 3 models before even going near the building whenever they don't get smoke support, and we can't assume that a player will always get an isg regardless of the situation.
    > > > > And for mechanized ?.....
    > > >
    > > > Not sure where you get the "no real combat bonuses" thing.
    > > > At vet 2 they get -23% received accuracy (bringimg them from their respectable .87 to a nasty .67) and 30% cooldown reduction,
    > > > vet 3 they get a stun grenade
    > > > Vet 4 they get 20% more accuracy and ANOTHER -23% rec acc (bringing them down to an incredible .51 target size)
    > > > And vet 5 provides a massive 40% accuracy.
    > > >
    > > > If you call that "no combat bonuses" then nobody gets combat bonuses...
    > >
    > > Look son, a vet 2 combat bonus that they will never reach without shrecks damaging vehicles, which cripple their dps anyway making them useless against infantry and mostly useless against vehicles anyway.
    > >
    > > Because, before any of this will ever come, infantry will starts moving togheter and get bar/bren.
    > > Or you wanna telf that you have ever seen a vet 2 sturm without shrecks lol ?
    > > Concussion grenade is just as broken and underused as model 24.
    >
    > Im no pro, but im not awful either, i frequently get my sturms up to the higher vets, 3,4 and some times SOMETIMES even 5, the trick is to not lean on a shrek like its all the AT you will ever get and use them like a flanker unit. Prey on the weak, the flanking squad, bait with your volks and get those sturms in there.
    > Also youve been saying that they get no combat vet (on 2 seperate threads) when shown that isnt so, you say that even vet 2 is unattainable? What exactly do you want then? -50 recc acc and +80% accuracy at vet 1? I think you are mistaking sturms as a balance issue when its clear its got to be a user issue....
    >
    > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > * > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > > > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > > With the addition of smoke units like sturm pios will have a muvh easier time, slapping the flame nade on them would seem fitting, kinda makes THEM an all in one squad, but they at least bleed....
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Without real combat bonuses by mid game sturms aren't going anywhere, hammered by late game infantry, they will lose 3 models before even going near the building whenever they don't get smoke support, and we can't assume that a player will always get an isg regardless of the situation.
    > > > > And for mechanized ?.....
    > > >
    > > > Not sure where you get the "no real combat bonuses" thing.
    > > > At vet 2 they get -23% received accuracy (bringimg them from their respectable .87 to a nasty .67) and 30% cooldown reduction,
    > > > vet 3 they get a stun grenade
    > > > Vet 4 they get 20% more accuracy and ANOTHER -23% rec acc (bringing them down to an incredible .51 target size)
    > > > And vet 5 provides a massive 40% accuracy.
    > > >
    > > > If you call that "no combat bonuses" then nobody gets combat bonuses...
    > >
    > > Look son, a vet 2 combat bonus that they will never reach without shrecks damaging vehicles, which cripple their dps anyway making them useless against infantry and mostly useless against vehicles anyway.
    > >
    > > Because, before any of this will ever come, infantry will starts moving togheter and get bar/bren.
    > > Or you wanna telf that you have ever seen a vet 2 sturm without shrecks lol ?
    > > Concussion grenade is just as broken and underused as model 24.
    >
    > Im no pro, but im not awful either, i frequently get my sturms up to the higher vets, 3,4 and some times SOMETIMES even 5, the trick is to not lean on a shrek like its all the AT you will ever get and use them like a flanker unit. Prey on the weak, the flanking squad, bait with your volks and get those sturms in there.
    > Also youve been saying that they get no combat vet (on 2 seperate threads) when shown that isnt so, you say that even vet 2 is unattainable? What exactly do you want then? -50 recc acc and +80% accuracy at vet 1? I think you are mistaking sturms as a balance issue when its clear its got to be a user issue....
    >
    > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > * > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > > > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > > > > With the addition of smoke units like sturm pios will have a muvh easier time, slapping the flame nade on them would seem fitting, kinda makes THEM an all in one squad, but they at least bleed....
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Without real combat bonuses by mid game sturms aren't going anywhere, hammered by late game infantry, they will lose 3 models before even going near the building whenever they don't get smoke support, and we can't assume that a player will always get an isg regardless of the situation.
    > > > > And for mechanized ?.....
    > > >
    > > > Not sure where you get the "no real combat bonuses" thing.
    > > > At vet 2 they get -23% received accuracy (bringimg them from their respectable .87 to a nasty .67) and 30% cooldown reduction,
    > > > vet 3 they get a stun grenade
    > > > Vet 4 they get 20% more accuracy and ANOTHER -23% rec acc (bringing them down to an incredible .51 target size)
    > > > And vet 5 provides a massive 40% accuracy.
    > > >
    > > > If you call that "no combat bonuses" then nobody gets combat bonuses...
    > >
    > > Look son, a vet 2 combat bonus that they will never reach without shrecks damaging vehicles, which cripple their dps anyway making them useless against infantry and mostly useless against vehicles anyway.
    > >
    > > Because, before any of this will ever come, infantry will starts moving togheter and get bar/bren.
    > > Or you wanna telf that you have ever seen a vet 2 sturm without shrecks lol ?
    > > Concussion grenade is just as broken and underused as model 24.
    >
    > Im no pro, but im not awful either, i frequently get my sturms up to the higher vets, 3,4 and some times SOMETIMES even 5, the trick is to not lean on a shrek like its all the AT you will ever get and use them like a flanker unit. Prey on the weak, the flanking squad, bait with your volks and get those sturms in there.
    > Also youve been saying that they get no combat vet (on 2 seperate threads) when shown that isnt so, you say that even vet 2 is unattainable? What exactly do you want then? -50 recc acc and +80% accuracy at vet 1? I think you are mistaking sturms as a balance issue when its clear its got to be a user issue....
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > You can't read apparently.
    > The problem is not sturm shreck (which, by the way, are incredibly inefficient with the 90 muni per shreck cost and the 300 mp per squad and CAN't be your only at, you will always need 2-3 raketen).
    >
    > The problem is that, while shrecks helps sturm to vet up, once you gave sturm shreck they become useless regardless of their scaling since the dps of the squad has been lowered of 25%, and losing a single model means losing 50% of the dps.
    >
    > So sturms have vet bonuses that could make them a good shock unit, but won't go beyond vet 2 without the shreck upgrade, which will make them a bad shock unit anyway.
    >
    > So no, reaching vet 2 on a non shreck sturm squad is a pain in the ass.
    >
    > Panzergrens starts with less RA and more dps by stock, which allows them to deal damage and vet up with their stg, thing sturm can't do beyond 5 min mark, where infantry moves togheter and starts getting upgrades, while sturm are still at vet 1, with no boost in combat performances.
    >
    > And no, isn't a user issue if meta in pro championship is 2 sturm with minesweepers that never engage in combat after 5 min.
    [/quote]
    Is this the same panzergrens that dont come as literally (LITERALLY) a starting unit, but also cost more AND cant lay mines, wire, repair, lay medpacks, ignore terrain features and repair all from the moment you get them (as in the moment the match starts)? Well hot damn it certainly is unfortunate that pgrens (who comes later, behind a fuel wall even, and have the sole job of killing infantry UNTIL they are given upgrade that swaps their role) outprefprm the secpnd 0 sturms in an offensive role. Try flanking, or using cover. It works well

    Sturms are most certainly not useless after 5 minutes, one just has to put thought into useing them, they are flankers, flank, ambush, leverage their dps.... If you try and charge them at an enemy in green cover alone, yea they are no good

    And anyways the fact of the matter is you said sturms have no combat vet, if you are having difficulty REACHING that vet perhaps you should phrase it as such "sturm vet requirments are too high to gain their INCREDIBLY COMBAT BUFFS that ENGINEER gets even by MAINLINE standards and i cant get anything out of them unless theu have a shrek" would be more appropriate
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