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  • #452
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,623

    @raulmagana121707 said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @raulmagana121707 i reckon it fights t3 armour because the t70 isnt terribly effective against the panther.

    Ok armadillo how would you counter t70 spam without a stug. I'm pretty sure you can agree t3 is useless. By the time you get panter they win the game.

    With a singular P4 for example?

  • #453
    2 years ago
    moremegamoremega REDWOOD CITY CA USAPosts: 229

    @Katitof said:

    @raulmagana121707 said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @raulmagana121707 i reckon it fights t3 armour because the t70 isnt terribly effective against the panther.

    Ok armadillo how would you counter t70 spam without a stug. I'm pretty sure you can agree t3 is useless. By the time you get panter they win the game.

    With a singular P4 for example?

    Sry got the name mixed up su 76 with t70.

  • #454
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,623

    @raulmagana121707 said:

    @Katitof said:

    @raulmagana121707 said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @raulmagana121707 i reckon it fights t3 armour because the t70 isnt terribly effective against the panther.

    Ok armadillo how would you counter t70 spam without a stug. I'm pretty sure you can agree t3 is useless. By the time you get panter they win the game.

    With a singular P4 for example?

    Sry got the name mixed up su 76 with t70.

    With singular shreck PGs and usual ATGs?

    Tank destroyers are NOT a counter to tank destroyers.

  • #455
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,821
    Im not sure why you changed the contents of my comment in the quote @raulmagana121707 you completely changed what it was saying by changing vehicles.

    A t70 up against a p4 is a whole lot different than an su76 up against a panther
  • #456
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited August 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo @Katitof

    The difference of deflected damage between Faust and AT-grenades of all Allii-fractions is so high that you can simply test it. You will always get the same result.

    Test: Tiger Ausf. VI and IS-2 no Vet with full health versus Ostheer Faust in comparison with RPG-40 or other kind of nade. The result is, that you will need min. 4 Fäuste to make an engine-critical but only 3 RPG-40 for same result. I tested it 3 times. In my experience the abilities will never bounce 3 times successive.

    Math:

    Tiger:1040hp-80-80-100=780hp=75%hp result: engine-damage.
    IS2:1040hp-45-45-100=850hp=82%hp result: no engine damage. NOW IT BECOMES INTERESTING! If 4th Faust will bounce too, it will even don't get an engine-critical! 850hp-45=805hp=77%

    This is WHY Comets etc. are much easier to play in comparison to Tiger, Panther etc. because the probability to get an engine-damage is much lower, because Faust will do nuts. And even if you get them, they drive faster than your infantry can run.

    If you give Faust same 80% deflection damage it is only fair. Soviets can still use their T34-76 or 85, it don't matters because it will pen in every situation. BUT Comet-blobs or multiple Churchills will lose their OP-ness without nerfing them.

    So...

  • #457
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,623
    edited August 2017

    @Widerstreit said:
    @thedarkarmadillo @Katitof

    The difference of deflected damage between Faust and AT-grenades of all Allii-fractions is so high that you can simply test it. You will always get the same result.

    Test: Tiger Ausf. VI and IS-2 no Vet with full health versus Ostheer Faust in comparison with RPG-40 or other kind of nade. The result is, that you will need min. 4 Fäuste to make an engine-critical but only 3 RPG-40 for same result. I tested it 3 times. In my experience the abilities will never bounce 3 times successive.

    Math:

    Tiger:1040hp-80-80-100=780hp=75%hp result: engine-damage.
    IS2:1040hp-35-35-100=870hp=84%hp result: no engine damage. NOW IT BECOMES INTERESTING! If 4th and 5th Faust will bounce too, it will even don't get an engine-critical! 870hp-35-35=800hp=77%

    This is WHY Comets etc. are much easier to play in comparison to Tiger, Panther etc. because the probability to get an engine-damage is much lower, because Faust will do nuts. And even if you get them, they drive faster than your infantry can run.

    If you give Faust same 80% deflection damage it is only fair. Soviets can still use their T34-76 or 85, it don't matters because it will pen in every situation. BUT Comet-blobs or multiple Churchills will lose their OP-ness without nerfing them.

    Now do all of that "math" again, including penetration difference and resulting penetration chance.
    Be ready to have your mind blown away.

    I'm not even going to go into the direction of how insanely unrealistic scenario you've conceived there, with 3+ infantry squads being used, especially conscripts.

    If you have 3 grens/cons in front of tiger/IS-2 and nothing else to damage them, you f***d up so hard, there is no amount of theory crafting to redeem you.

  • #458
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited August 2017

    You can feel the differences in effect in every game. I saw that scenarios often, used them often too, because most German players uses their tanks to offensive and in most situation you will make a engine-damage. Don't forget that rife-men's Vet1-grenade has same effect as RPG-40 and there will be 3 units or more + a Pak etc. somewhere that has deflection damage too. PaK40 has no defection damage.

    Sure, the effect is much larger on Comet or Churchill, because they will arrive in larger numbers. Simply open your eyes. Even if you give Faust same stat as RPG it becomes a better ability, because it doesn't matter if it pens or not, you only have to get the magic 75% health for the engine damage.

    Edit: Katitof, abilities have a cool-down too. For my scenario you don't need 3+ Cons etc. It only dopendes if you run into a MG42 or not.

  • #459
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,623
    edited August 2017

    @Widerstreit said:
    You can feel the differences in effect in every game. I saw that scenarios often, used them often too, because most German players uses their tanks to offensive and in most situation you will make a engine-damage.

    Careless play is NOT a valid argument.

    Don't forget that rife-men's Vet1-grenade has same effect as RPG-40 and there will be 3 units or more + a Pak etc. somewhere that has deflection damage too. PaK40 has no defection damage.

    >

    So where did wehr pak go then? No one in his right mind will use 3 at-nades/fausts on armor, because that's extremely inefficient use of muni.

    Sure, the effect is much larger on Comet or Churchill, because they will arrive in larger numbers.

    No one even uses churchills and you have 50% chance to penetrate comet with AT nade, while less then 30% to penetrate panther and 33% to penetrate tiger with AT nade.
    You won't have comets arriving in larger numbers, because its impossible to afford more then 2 after all the nerfs, you won't have pop cap for it.

    And no one in his right mind will get more then 1 churchill ever, why are you using out of meta unit that no one ever uses as example for anything?

    Sorry, but that's pure bs right there.

    Simply open your eyes. Even if you give Faust same stat as RPG it becomes a better ability, because it doesn't matter if it pens or not, you only have to get the magic 75% health for the engine damage.

    Take your own advise please, you really need it more.

    Using fausts/at nades if there are no ATGs/TDs to damage the unit first makes no sense and is a waste of muni.
    Using more then one per tank, unless you're in absolute pinch makes no sense and is a waste of muni, you will ALWAYS snare every non heavy tank if you hit it with ATG/TD once and then use faust, if you're doing it in other way, you're doing it wrong. If you're trying to snare heavy tank with fausts alone, you're doing it as wrong as it can get and there is no excuse for that level of bad play.

    Edit: Katitof, abilities have a cool-down too. For my scenario you don't need 3+ Cons etc. It only dopendes if you run into a MG42 or not.

    Did you forgot to mount main gun and 3 MGs on your P4 and are driving empty hull?

    Even panther is capable of murdering cons before that cooldown goes off.

    No one will also just stay there, attacking ground for one minute for you to cooldown faust with single squad as that's what you're trying to say here for whatever reason.

    You're now talking purely out of your rear, sorry but absolutely nothing in your last post is even remotely close to what actually happens in game, that's 100% theorycrafting on your part and a bad one on top of things.

    Let alone the fact that nothing you're saying here is even remotely close to the intended topic of this thread.

  • #460
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited August 2017

    @Katitof Is it so difficult to understand? With Faust the chance NOT to make engine-damage is MUCH higher at same situation RPG40 would have made the critical hit. Often Faust bounced at situations RPG40 etc. had made the critical.

    Better give both abilities 45% bounce.

    When I enter my ideas and wishes here I
    discussed with 3 or more people to understand problems. And many players know that effect. Tiger will get the engine-damage, Comet will flee.

    When I read your content I really understand why this game is so bad balanced. Complete ignorant. It is not meant evil, but there is no red line of most balancing concepts and no will to look over the plate rim.

  • #461
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 693
    edited August 2017
    > @Widerstreit said:
    > @Katitof Is it so difficult to understand? With Faust the chance NOT to make engine-damage is MUCH higher at same situation RPG40 would have made the critical hit. Often Faust bounced at situations RPG40 etc. had made the critical.
    >
    > Better give both abilities 45% bounce.
    >
    > When I enter my ideas and wishes here I
    > discussed with 3 or more people to understand problems. And many players know that effect. Tiger will get the engine-damage, Comet will flee.
    >
    > When I read your content I really understand why this game is so bad balanced. Complete ignorant. It is not meant evil, but there is no red line of most balancing concepts and no will to look over the plate rim.

    I dont think the rpg40 or usf at rifle grenade being better are a problem. The pak 40 has a snare ability. The raketten can launch sneak attacks and is t0. These should not be forgotten in this matter. Axis generaly have better at in most cases. Imo this is balanced in this way

    To be honest the game in its entirety has been geared more towards axis in its lifetime then toward allies imo. Only the last year or so it does lean towards allies imo.
  • #462
    2 years ago
    The AT-ability of the leIG18 looks kind of odd. How it would be to make it same as the new stun-shot of StuG? So it also get some tactical sense.
  • #463
    2 years ago

    Hahahaha oh wow nothing is being done to address the walking stuka. It can easily shut down any allied team weapon play. Regularly see it getting 60-70 kills per game. Katyusha is still rubbish with a RoF as slow as a turtle. Literally other rockets fire in one salvo except the katyusha.

    Conscript scaling/utility gets the middle finger again, and again nothing is being done about the fact that soviet fuel drop somehow flies over the enemy base meanwhile wehr supply drops come safely from their side this new AA system will make soviet fuel drops impossible

    Instead I get changes to the elefant and jagdtiger that literally no one asked for, and yet another nerf to penals with no buffs to cons.

  • #464
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,623

    @For the rest of his life said:
    Hahahaha oh wow nothing is being done to address the walking stuka. It can easily shut down any allied team weapon play. Regularly see it getting 60-70 kills per game. Katyusha is still rubbish with a RoF as slow as a turtle. Literally other rockets fire in one salvo except the katyusha.

    Conscript scaling/utility gets the middle finger again, and again nothing is being done about the fact that soviet fuel drop somehow flies over the enemy base meanwhile wehr supply drops come safely from their side this new AA system will make soviet fuel drops impossible

    Instead I get changes to the elefant and jagdtiger that literally no one asked for, and yet another nerf to penals with no buffs to cons.

    Do you people even read the notes of just randomly spam?

    251 Walking Stuka

    The AOE and scatter have been adjusted to make the unit less devastating, particularly against team weapons that it could generally wipe out in one barrage. In return the cost has been reduced and the population made to match the other rocket launchers.
    • Health from 320 to 160.
    • Cost from 390/100 to 360/85.
    • Build-time from 60 to 45.
    • Population from 14 to 12.
    • AOE damage from 1/0.15/0.05 to 1/0.15/0.01.
    • AOE distance from 2/4/6 to 0.5/5.5/7.
    • Angle Scatter from 0 to 9.
    • Distance scatter max from 0 to 10.5.
    • Distance scatter ratio from 0 to 0.0875.
    • FOW scatter multipliers from 1 to 1.25.

    251 Walking Stuka

    The scatter changes previously introduced to the Stuka make it very difficult for infantry squads to escape the area as the rockets would often scatter onto units outside of the line. To adjust for this, the rockets are having their OHK radius further reduced.

    To improve barrage consistency, particularly against emplacements and award players for moving their walking stukas close to the frontlines for reduced scatter, we are lowering the length of the Creeping Barrage from 40 to 30. While the Stuka may cover less of an area, this change should ensure the rockets land in a somewhat predictable pattern.

    Finally, the Stuka will now require more rockets to level structures and destroy team weapons to reflect its new price. The Stuka will still clear out infantry inside structures when the rockets land and decrew weapon teams should a rocket land directly on target.

    Build-time returned to 60.
    Incendiary rockets damage reverted
    Mid AOE distance reduced from 5.5 to 3.33
    -50% damage vs team weapons
    -50% damage vs buildings
    Creeping Barrage length from 40 to 30.
    UI indication for Creeping Barrage now coincides with the actual barrage

  • #465
    2 years ago

    @Katitof said:

    @For the rest of his life said:
    Hahahaha oh wow nothing is being done to address the walking stuka. It can easily shut down any allied team weapon play. Regularly see it getting 60-70 kills per game. Katyusha is still rubbish with a RoF as slow as a turtle. Literally other rockets fire in one salvo except the katyusha.

    Conscript scaling/utility gets the middle finger again, and again nothing is being done about the fact that soviet fuel drop somehow flies over the enemy base meanwhile wehr supply drops come safely from their side this new AA system will make soviet fuel drops impossible

    Instead I get changes to the elefant and jagdtiger that literally no one asked for, and yet another nerf to penals with no buffs to cons.

    Do you people even read the notes of just randomly spam?

    251 Walking Stuka

    The AOE and scatter have been adjusted to make the unit less devastating, particularly against team weapons that it could generally wipe out in one barrage. In return the cost has been reduced and the population made to match the other rocket launchers.
    • Health from 320 to 160.
    • Cost from 390/100 to 360/85.
    • Build-time from 60 to 45.
    • Population from 14 to 12.
    • AOE damage from 1/0.15/0.05 to 1/0.15/0.01.
    • AOE distance from 2/4/6 to 0.5/5.5/7.
    • Angle Scatter from 0 to 9.
    • Distance scatter max from 0 to 10.5.
    • Distance scatter ratio from 0 to 0.0875.
    • FOW scatter multipliers from 1 to 1.25.

    251 Walking Stuka

    The scatter changes previously introduced to the Stuka make it very difficult for infantry squads to escape the area as the rockets would often scatter onto units outside of the line. To adjust for this, the rockets are having their OHK radius further reduced.

    To improve barrage consistency, particularly against emplacements and award players for moving their walking stukas close to the frontlines for reduced scatter, we are lowering the length of the Creeping Barrage from 40 to 30. While the Stuka may cover less of an area, this change should ensure the rockets land in a somewhat predictable pattern.

    Finally, the Stuka will now require more rockets to level structures and destroy team weapons to reflect its new price. The Stuka will still clear out infantry inside structures when the rockets land and decrew weapon teams should a rocket land directly on target.

    Build-time returned to 60.
    Incendiary rockets damage reverted
    Mid AOE distance reduced from 5.5 to 3.33
    -50% damage vs team weapons
    -50% damage vs buildings
    Creeping Barrage length from 40 to 30.
    UI indication for Creeping Barrage now coincides with the actual barrage

    Ok I might have forgotten that bit but what about the other issues? The wehrmacht fuel spam? The molotov's pathetic throw time despite needing teching? Katyusha's snail salvo?

  • #466
    2 years ago
    iA3 - HHiA3 - HH IRANPosts: 284

    pls use changes in Revamp mod, most of changes in this mod are good.

  • #467
    2 years ago
    SodoguSodogu Posts: 1
    Please buff USF mortar or nerf Wehrmacht mortar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • #468
    2 years ago

    Not sure if its fair to force Ost to tech Tier 4 for the Tiger as Ost is the only faction with 4 true tiers, while the other factions can get their heavy out without penalty by teching tier 3. The Tiger should have the same requirements of the command p4 (Support armor korps OR tier 4 tech)

  • #469
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited August 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Not sure if its fair to force Ost to tech Tier 4 for the Tiger as Ost is the only faction with 4 true tiers, while the other factions can get their heavy out without penalty by teching tier 3.

    Soviets need t4 for regular priced IS-2, ISU, KV-1, and KV-8. Mechanized Armor Kampaneya is t4 not t3.

  • #470
    2 years ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Not sure if its fair to force Ost to tech Tier 4 for the Tiger as Ost is the only faction with 4 true tiers, while the other factions can get their heavy out without penalty by teching tier 3.

    Soviets need t4 for regular priced IS-2, ISU, KV-1, and KV-8. Mechanized Armor Kampaneya is t4 not t3.

    I just said A TRUE TIER 4. The cost of the 4th building for SU is NOT tier 4 due to the special rifle and support weapon being fuel unintensive

  • #471
    2 years ago
    Kyle_REKyle_RE Posts: 484 admin

    Unfortunately due to unforeseen circumstances, the Fall Balance Preview has been put on hold indefinitely. I have no doubt that the learnings that came from the changes in this mod will be invaluable for the future and in one form or another, the work here will not go to waste.

    We would like to thank Mr. Smith, Miragefla, SoE-Sturmpanther and all that playtested the mod and gave their feedback for your hard work and dedication to this project. We encourage those that have interest in making tuning pack mods to keep going and trying new ideas on the Steam Workshop.

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