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  • #92
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,653

    @RiCE said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Almost like its a fire support weapon instead of a stand alone unit... It moves quickly and caps faster than average, it can hardly also be expected to be able to solo enemy squads with no bleed reliably for the low cost of 210mp (iirc, could be misremebering that)

    Except now we are back at the state it was 2 year ago... it gets useless after it captured the points. You won't be able to capture anything with this on the front line... nor behind enemy lines.

    If its fragile like this, then increase its long range accuracy to the UC level. That way it could support infantry without kamikaze actions.

    Let me remind you that 2 years ago Volks weren't the greatest unit around to fight infantry cost effectively and had no AI upgrades.

    OKW 2 years ago relied heavily on Kubel with weak volks and kubel suppression, nowadays its just utility unit which is nice to have, but won't hurt you if you won't have it.

  • #93
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    If the Kubel gained something to strengthen its role as a scouting/light support unit I'd be okay with its weaker armour that almost makes it useless; over just getting a Volks squad which will be a far better investment.

    That something is shared vet or better stealth etc. Which hasn't made it for some silly reason.
  • #94
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,653

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    If the Kubel gained something to strengthen its role as a scouting/light support unit I'd be okay with its weaker armour that almost makes it useless; over just getting a Volks squad which will be a far better investment.

    That something is shared vet or better stealth etc. Which hasn't made it for some silly reason.

    It already got something.

    Its speed and capping speed, which no infantry unit can match as well as its detection ability.

  • #95
    2 years ago
    capiquacapiqua Posts: 270

    Following the guide of this guy in .org : https://www.coh2.org/topic/62367/fall-balance-preview/page/12#post_id621618

    Very Effective (downed both aircraft before duration of ability ended)

    • Ostwind: approx. 20 sec
    • M17 Quad: approx. 25 sec
    • Bofors: approx. 30 sec. I tested this against Typhoons (Vanguard Operations Strafing Support), but they should perform the same way.
    • Schwerer Panzer HQ: approx. 30 sec
    • Sdkfz. 251/17 Flak HT: approx. 35 sec
    • Centuar AAMk. II: approx. 40 sec

    Effective (downed one aircraft before duration of ability ended)

    • M15A1 AAHT: Its MGs do almost nothing, while the 37mm AAA is pretty effective. Also, it happens to rotate when engaging enemy aircraft, so it is advised to use handbrake.
    • Sdkfz. 222
    • pintle DshK: The pintle-mounted DshK is surprisingly effective.

    Mediocre (downed one aircraft after duration of ability ended)

    • 2cm Flak Emplacement

    Ineffective (downed no aircraft after duration of ability ended)

    • pintle M2HB: Reliably damages aircraft, never can bring them down however.
    • pintle MG42: Pretty useless against aircraft.

    The better those mecanicsAA they are between 30 and 40 seconds and pintleMGs ignore AA, I think they should devote themselves to the troops of the field.

  • #96
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    Imo the kubel is the conscript under the scout cars. Very litlle combat use but lots of utility.
  • #97
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    CALL-IN UNIT CHANGES
    Comments:
    Although having around the same penalties would seem fair it is not because the cost of the unlock is completely different and comes with different bonus.
    Explanation:

    For instance UKF seem to be the least affect since the prerequest cost very close to premium and gives lots of bonuses on the other hand units like the Persing or the CP have to invest too much get little return

    The impact is completely different across the game modes since in 1v1 the add cost is huge while in 4vs4 the CP requirement and inflated economy will probably allow teching before calling this unit.

    Imo all call in are the same yet the contribution is different and thus should be treated differently. I would separate call-in in 3 categories specialized/main battle tanks (MBT)/heavies/super heavies
    Explanation:

    The fact that spamming some units like the M4C work while spamming the Hezter indicates that some units allow to bypass tech and other do not. In addition the limit to 1 and high cost of Super heavies simply makes this unit unable to be spammed

    categories:
    Specialized
    KV-8, Command Panzer IV,Sherman Bulldozer, M10, Ostwind, Flammpanzer 38 ‘Hetzer’,

    MBT
    KV-1, M4C, Command Panther

    Heavies/Supper heavies/(artillery)
    IS-2, KV-2, ISU-152, Tiger, Elephant, Pershing, Priest, Calliope, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, Crocodile, AVRE, King Tiger.

    Recommendation:
    Make all MBT require tech including the KV-1 and Command Panther since they are units that can be used to avoid teching. Adjust cost or buff units if needed (for instance C.P. could cost the same a normal Panther)

    Leave all specialized units with no change. This unit can not replace teching since they fulfill specif roles.

    Heavies/Supper heavies/(artillery)
    For artillery introduce as limit to 2(or even one) since they can be very annoying to play against especially in large modes. For all this vehicles removed the tech cost and simply introduce a long cooldown [b]AFTER[/b] the unit has been killed so that actually losing such a unit will leave without armor for a long time unless you tech

  • #98
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950

    Can you low down Bofors fire-rate too its animation speed? It shoots WAY too fast.

  • #99
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,090

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > @Lazarus ha detto:
    > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > The kubel nerf, guys what was the problem with it ?
    > > Who couldn't counter kubelwagon lol ?
    >
    > USF on open maps. Now bullets actually hurt it so you cant sit in front of multiple with mo consequence. Itll still work as a solo flanker.

    In the mod I'm playing is now totally worthless.
    Why if the problem was armor it still kept the same cooldown annd stupidly short bursts. ?
    It's a unit that hardly scale, and now can't do any good but retreat after a few volleys in early game.

    Because its DPS was fine where it was and didn't need a buff. It got an armor reduction but a HP buff, now it's much more consistent to use. As for hardly scaling it provides you with map recon. That's insanely powerful. It's literally the same strategy. Pair it with a Sturm, take some pot shots at a squad, bleed them, retreat and repair. Recycle until the enemy has committed more to killing the Kubel then you have invested in it to profit.

  • #100
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    @Katitof said:
    Let me remind you that 2 years ago Volks weren't the greatest unit around to fight infantry cost effectively and had no AI upgrades.

    OKW 2 years ago relied heavily on Kubel with weak volks and kubel suppression, nowadays its just utility unit which is nice to have, but won't hurt you if you won't have it.

    I agree, if the goal is to reduce OKW early game to a single unit.

  • #101
    2 years ago
    thekingsownthekingso… Posts: 447
    edited July 2017

    Why on earth are you buffing the Bofors?????

    What is wrong with you Relic?

    This "emplacement" is one of the most overpowered units in the game for a dirt cheap cost/ comes super early and decimates infantry, light vehicles, medium vehicles , light tanks, tanks and even does damage to heavy tanks.

    If this wasn't ridiculous enough its also an artillery piece with an invincibility button . All this for a laughable 280 manpower and 30 fuel.

    Come on Relic see sense there is no place for such a unit in this game utterly broken. If its going to be so cheap then have it drain manpower when braced and make it come MID/Late game not EARLY game.

  • #102
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @capiqua ha detto:
    Following the guide of this guy in .org : https://www.coh2.org/topic/62367/fall-balance-preview/page/12#post_id621618

    Very Effective (downed both aircraft before duration of ability ended)

    • Ostwind: approx. 20 sec
    • M17 Quad: approx. 25 sec
    • Bofors: approx. 30 sec. I tested this against Typhoons (Vanguard Operations Strafing Support), but they should perform the same way.
    • Schwerer Panzer HQ: approx. 30 sec
    • Sdkfz. 251/17 Flak HT: approx. 35 sec
    • Centuar AAMk. II: approx. 40 sec

    Effective (downed one aircraft before duration of ability ended)

    • M15A1 AAHT: Its MGs do almost nothing, while the 37mm AAA is pretty effective. Also, it happens to rotate when engaging enemy aircraft, so it is advised to use handbrake.
    • Sdkfz. 222
    • pintle DshK: The pintle-mounted DshK is surprisingly effective.

    Mediocre (downed one aircraft after duration of ability ended)

    • 2cm Flak Emplacement

    Ineffective (downed no aircraft after duration of ability ended)

    • pintle M2HB: Reliably damages aircraft, never can bring them down however.
    • pintle MG42: Pretty useless against aircraft.

    The better those mecanicsAA they are between 30 and 40 seconds and pintleMGs ignore AA, I think they should devote themselves to the troops of the field.

    Pretty much reasonable comment.

  • #103
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:(Got one to vet 5 once, promptly drove over a mine when running from some infantry.....)

    NOOOOOOOOOO

    Tell, me, does it really suppress ?
    Is it true that a vet 5 kubel can disappear in the shadows ?

  • #104
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,653

    @RiCE said:

    @Katitof said:
    Let me remind you that 2 years ago Volks weren't the greatest unit around to fight infantry cost effectively and had no AI upgrades.

    OKW 2 years ago relied heavily on Kubel with weak volks and kubel suppression, nowadays its just utility unit which is nice to have, but won't hurt you if you won't have it.

    I agree, if the goal is to reduce OKW early game to a single unit.

    I don't see your problem.
    Soviets have only one viable infantry unit and its not even intended mainline unit for the last year now-it just changes from patch to patch which one it is at the moment.

    Plus, for whatever reason you're saying that like it was possible or even reasonable to get more then 1 kubel specifically for scouting/fast capping anyway.

  • #105
    2 years ago
    company14u2company14… Posts: 572

    @RiCE said:

    @Katitof said:
    Let me remind you that 2 years ago Volks weren't the greatest unit around to fight infantry cost effectively and had no AI upgrades.

    OKW 2 years ago relied heavily on Kubel with weak volks and kubel suppression, nowadays its just utility unit which is nice to have, but won't hurt you if you won't have it.

    I agree, if the goal is to reduce OKW early game to a single unit.

    The whole point is to make kubel spamming, in maps like steppes, less viable versus Usf. Now, Kubels will reward vet to rfiles when fired upon, and Usf won't be forced into mechanized or into early bazooka upgrades instead of bars. The other solution would require adding new usf units or giving them earlier access to at. These changes will be more noticeable at top lvls of play.

  • #106
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    About the kubel maybe one should first try the lowering the Far DPs to M3 lvls while lowering the M3 close DPS a bit also.

  • #107
    2 years ago

    The change to the howizers is very nice,in the later game when they unlock manpower becomes even more desirable than fuel or munitions.
    While we are at that,maybe change the price of the airdropped combat group aswell. 900MP is a bit excessive for something thats not a heavy tank,no matter what you get.i think it should be around 600-650 MP and maybe 120 munitions.for that maybe guarantee 1 para squad comes with a bazooka or BAR.

  • #108
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017
    > @Katitof ha detto:
    > @RiCE said:
    >
    > @Katitof said:
    > Let me remind you that 2 years ago Volks weren't the greatest unit around to fight infantry cost effectively and had no AI upgrades.
    >
    > OKW 2 years ago relied heavily on Kubel with weak volks and kubel suppression, nowadays its just utility unit which is nice to have, but won't hurt you if you won't have it.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I agree, if the goal is to reduce OKW early game to a single unit.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I don't see your problem.
    > Soviets have only one viable infantry unit and its not even intended mainline unit for the last year now-it just changes from patch to patch which one it is at the moment.
    >
    > Plus, for whatever reason you're saying that like it was possible or even reasonable to get more then 1 kubel specifically for scouting/fast capping anyway.

    Because penals/cons ppsh/sniper aren't viable ?
  • #109
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    edited July 2017

    Kubel isn't as bad as I thought it'd be. I do still wish it got something in return, liked easier to access vet. I wouldn't ever buy two anymore; limiting OKW openings in my opinion.

    Leigs seems okay. Barrage shots look like they always just fall short? Smoke is nice. I prefer older range; please leave the barrage at its old range and auto fire as the current mod range. The HE/Hollow charge shell-thing is a bit niche and not worth taking up a veterancy spot. I tried it against the Croc near the very end and the crew just ended up chasing the Croc.

    Mortar pit isn't cancerous on 1v1 maps like in this match on Crossroads for example. Quite nice.

    Stuka's barrage (near the end) wasn't terrible but it didn't wipe the weapon crews - which I guess was the purpose of the nerf but other allied launchers do wipe? So why? Incendiary round needs to be cheaper and independent from normal barrage.

  • #110
    2 years ago
    BigBearBigBear Posts: 94

    Is there any reason as to why the listed bugfixes in the changelog cannot be implemented sooner rather than be tied to the lengthy balance process?

  • #111
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @SquishyMuffin ha detto:
    Stuka's barrage (near the end) wasn't terrible but it didn't wipe the weapon crews - which I guess was the purpose of the nerf but other allied launchers do wipe? So why?

    Nice question.
    The only difference between other rocket arty is that stuka needs to be aimed correctly to actually wipe (actual stats).

    This is why i keep saying all it needed was normal circular barrage.

  • #112
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271

    @BigBear said:
    Is there any reason as to why the listed bugfixes in the changelog cannot be implemented sooner rather than be tied to the lengthy balance process?

    Have wondered this myself a few times. I have to guess that the reasoning is that the more patches they try to launch, the more likely it is other bugs will pop up as a result, since most of the ones around now started existing after a previous patch.

  • #113
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,653

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    Because penals/cons ppsh/sniper aren't viable ?

    Penals are meta and the very unit I had on mind.

    Others?
    Sniper isn't exactly a main line unit, its support and just like all other support weapons, its situational and map dependent, not go-to thing on all maps.

    Ppsh cons are equally situational, good on tight urban maps, useless where there is any kind of open space, that's why they are not meta and rare pick all together.

  • #114
    2 years ago
    mlkmlk Posts: 49

    hi
    Finally, why have waited so long ?, this patch maybe saving the game 4v4 and 3v3. FINALLY

  • #115
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Bak

    You have to look at the patch as a whole. Yes the super-heavy td's were nerfed as expected, but on the other hand, nearly all the more potent Allied indirect (Brit Mortar - less autoattack and barrage range, Calliope - significantly less powerful alpha strike, Priests that can no longer decrew to abuse popcap) were also given similar treatment.

    That means that though the allied "paintrain" as you mentioned will be much more viable against the super-heavies, without that massive amount of over-the-top indirect covering them, they will likely roll right into paks, raks, snares and mines that in live would have been vaporised before the assualt.

    Seems a fair compromise. Not too mention the croc nerf is all too welcome, that units been a bit broken for a while now.

  • #116
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017
    > @Katitof ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > Because penals/cons ppsh/sniper aren't viable ?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Penals are meta and the very unit I had on mind.
    >
    > Others?
    > Sniper isn't exactly a main line unit, its support and just like all other support weapons, its situational and map dependent, not go-to thing on all maps.
    >
    > Ppsh cons are equally situational, good on tight urban maps, useless where there is any kind of open space, that's why they are not meta and rare pick all together.

    There is nothing situational in cons with ppsh.
    Hourra make them effective regardless of maps.
    Soviet sniper is an infantry unit, you were talking about infantry.
    Neither kubel is mainline.

    Not being meta doesn't absolutely mean it's not viable.

    The only reason penals are meta is that is a joke to micro that, have a lot of accuracy on the move, can be blobbed hard by late game since their stv firing on the move are so effective that most player don't even stop them from going forward to enemy base.
  • #117
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Bak

    Katusha's though powerful, do not have the alpha strike of units like the old land mattress or the current live calliope, or the consistent bombardment damage of artillery. They will only force repositioning, and maybe score some lucky kills.

    The Calliope and the Priest have both been effectively nerfed.

    British base howi's are pretty awful, the land mattress was nerfed a while back to be much slower firing, and sextons are just plain useless.

    A core part of this patch is sharpening up the aircraft and AA system, Ostwinds and flaktracks will tear any loitering aircraft out of the sky fairly quickly.

    All together its been quite noticeable in the 3. 3v3 games I've had on the preview, especially the calliope changes, though I still think its too hard to kill, even with 480 health.

    Just keep your mainlines in reserve for after the barrages, bring them foward as the enemy tanks attack and snare them. Finally have your mines on your rear line instead of in front of your heavy-td, so when the "paintrain" circles to reach your vehicle's rear armour, they hit them and get trapped right in the centre of your forces.

    @Bak said:
    It`s a 4vs4 .... 4 Players can Focus the TD Position.....

    And there will likely be four of you defending it.

  • #118
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:

    All good, but:
    Useful /=/ combat unit

    "Sturms are most certainly not useless after 5 minutes, one just has to put thought into useing them, they are flankers, flank, ambush, leverage their dps.... If you try and charge them at an enemy in green cover alone, yea they are no good"

    I know how to use flankers, again you aren't gtting what i said.
    This is an early game thing, where sturm do a great job behind sightblockers and buildings occasionally even wiping mg's and stuff.
    To early game it translate into Fire and Manuver tactics with volks.

    The problem is that, regardless of how wel you can use them (and believe me, i can do some magic tricks until 5 min mark that bring my sturm to wipes and tons of kills) they will never reach higher vet than 2, remaining on their 0.87 received accuracy.
    At some point, than, let's say..9 mins, a rifle (that went on vet 1) that goes around a corner in a way that in early game would have resulted in being rekt by sturm, end up losing 2 models at best before killing three sturm.

    Even as flanking units, by mid game sturm lose any offensive power (exceptions is team weapons and stuff).

    This is why i'm saying that right now the unit can't scale, and it's a pity.
    The vet requirements are totally off, it asks like 40+ kills or something to get vet 2 to the first combat bonuses, absolutely not viable.

    "Is this the same panzergrens that dont come as literally (LITERALLY) a starting unit, but also cost more AND cant lay mines, wire, repair, lay medpacks, ignore terrain features and repair all from the moment you get them (as in the moment the match starts)?"

    That is why i'm not asking to buff sturm to make them panzergrens 2.0, but to adjust vet requirements.
    It should at least reach vet 2 by minute 8 with intense use, with a reasonable amount of kills that isn't a genocide per model.
  • #119
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    @Farra13. I agree completely could not have said that better myself. Esp about the katty, and at longer ranges katty have massive scatter for just a few rockets per salvo. At most it just forces a relocation of units because of this.

    @SAY_MY_NAME
    Oorah does not make cons effective on open maps by default. There effective dps is even shorter ranged with ppsh's. Oorah doesnt negate supression and cons wont fire while sprinting. And only at vet 3 do cons have favorable recieved accuracy for this to be effective on open maps imho.
  • #120
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @Farra13 ha detto:
    @Bak

    You have to look at the patch as a whole. Yes the super-heavy td's were nerfed as expected, but on the other hand, nearly all the more potent Allied indirect (Brit Mortar - less autoattack and barrage range, Calliope - significantly less powerful alpha strike, Priests that can no longer decrew to abuse popcap) were also given similar treatment.

    That means that though the allied "paintrain" as you mentioned will be much more viable against the super-heavies, without that massive amount of over-the-top indirect covering them, they will likely roll right into paks, raks, snares and mines that in live would have been vaporised before the assualt.

    Seems a fair compromise. Not too mention the croc nerf is all too welcome, that units been a bit broken for a while now.

    Except that ALL indirect fire has been nerfed, pit, calliope, isg, stuka....

    "Seems a fair compromise" lolololollolol

  • #121
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @TheLeveler83 ha detto:
    @Farra13. I agree completely could not have said that better myself. Esp about the katty, and at longer ranges katty have massive scatter for just a few rockets per salvo. At most it just forces a relocation of units because of this.

    @SAY_MY_NAME
    Oorah does not make cons effective on open maps by default. There effective dps is even shorter ranged with ppsh's. Oorah doesnt negate supression and cons wont fire while sprinting. And only at vet 3 do cons have favorable recieved accuracy for this to be effective on open maps imho.

    This is what the game lacked, cheap infantry running and gunning with smg from 10 muni, ignoring suppression.
    I used cons so much times i think i know how those works perfectly.

    They can cover distances in seconds----->are useless on open maps ?!?!?

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