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  • #182
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032
    Yup. StuG is one of the single most cost effective AT units in the game. Theyve already got insane RoF and decent pen. Your proposal would make StuG spam even more potent which is the exact opposite of what we are going for here.
  • #183
    2 years ago
    LucianoLuciano Posts: 26

    Dont forget to fix this one too, it needs to be like the coh1 forward hq, it needs to be capable and it shouldnt be able to convert a building into a fhq if it is in enemy or disconected territory

    https://www.coh2.org/replay/62481/urban-defense-soviet-commander-comand-post

  • #184
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @Lazarus ha detto:

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    And again, the problem was td's 2 shot.
    Than why td's didn't get any compensating buff, but even more nerfs like a stupid stun hit and popcap nerfs.

    So far none of these have arisen as an issue in my usage of the new TDs. Perhaps you could post a replay showing them?

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    Isu is okey as td and okey at sniping infantry, unlike axis td can do both.

    The ISU is okay at sniping infantry and mediocre as a TD at best. The ISU will bounce off vet 2 PIVs or vet 0 OKW PIVs occasionally. Its AP pen is really hilariously low. The Axis TDs have garunteed pen of everything that isn't an IS-2. That's what you're paying for.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Volks overperform simply because of their cost and are spammed because generally unreliable in a 1vs1 against allies mainline.

    They overperform because of their vet scaling and their combination with FRPs. They are the only thing currently propping up OKWs early - mid game, so buffs are in order (like LeiG smoke, for example) but Volks as an individual unit must be nerfed.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    Post patch people will complain how cheap are obers and they will nerf them---->grens 2.0

    People have done no such thing, and have done nothing but say that 400 MP is too expensive for Obers ever since they lost the LMG. You can't make up a thing that doesn't exist and call that an argument.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    All this while the WHOLE COMMUNITY was yelling out how weak are Panther performances, especially top players.

    Well, specifically how weak the Ost Panther performs - because the Ost Panther not only started with worse moving accuracy, it had worse AI on the MGs which is why it's getting 200 damage. The OKW Panther is considered fine, mostly because it isn't locked behind Ostheers absolutely absurdly expensive teching.

    Overalll, like I said. A bunch of non-issues.

    How is that even a point ?
    No i don't have any footage of jadgtiger being stunned now.
    They are still giving severals nerfs WHILE nerfing the td capabilities, so the problem isn't its 2 shotting ability.
    And we are talking about the single purpose most expensive vehicles is game.

    And again, putting in ISU is nonsense, or you wanna tell me they have got some squad sniping ability ?

    "The Axis TDs have garunteed pen of everything that isn't an IS-2"

    This is objectively not true, unless you are talking to heavies tank destroyer, that somehoe while having no anti infantry capacity should also suck at tank killing right ?

    "They are the only thing currently propping up OKWs early - mid game"

    And this is why the only nerf they need is price increase, than they need to get a decent upgrade that isn't subpar g43 for 60 muni

    Why?

    "@SAY_MY_NAME said:
    Post patch people will complain how cheap are obers and they will nerf them---->grens 2.0

    People have done no such thing, and have done nothing but say that 400 MP is too expensive for Obers ever since they lost the LMG. You can't make up a thing that doesn't exist and call that an argument"

    You can't make 340 obers a mainline, they ared too much expensive even at 300 mp.
    Consider that OKW WOULDN'T FLOAT ON MP, if it wasn't for actual obers.

    Again messing up with things without knowing what will happen is the reason we got penals meta with maxim and other stuff.

    So no, this is a perfectly reasonable arguments, obers are either too cheap to keep its performances, or okw is gonna need a proper mainline because relying completely on elites to keep field presence is completely stupid.
    At which rate should obers reinforce for example ?

    "Well, specifically how weak the Ost Panther performs - because the Ost Panther not only started with worse moving accuracy, it had worse AI on the MGs which is why it's getting 200 damage. The OKW Panther is considered fine, mostly because it isn't locked behind Ostheers absolutely absurdly expensive teching.

    Overalll, like I said. A bunch of non-issues."

    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=panther_ausf_g_squad_mp
    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=panther_squad_mp
    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=t_34_85_squad_mp

    Both panther mg's suck compared to the most mediocre generalist.
    You need the pintle to surpass a t34 in dps, but the t34 main gun are something called AOE.
    "better mg" is the perfect smokescreen i guess.

    The teching part is nonsense.
    Somehow OST teching is a disadvantage, but the fact that OST is completely free from the risk of loosing the tier 4 building while OKW can lose the fragile hq.

    At the same time even the +0.15 accuracy modifier is a rather weak argument, when we say that Panther cost 200 fuel.

    Now, to the balance team, decide if Panther has to be premium tank (with decent aoe, no mg's are a joke),mobile tank destroyer, heavy destroyer, superman...
    Than copy paste the other Panther.

  • #185
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 693
    .> @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > And again when half or so of SU doctrines have ppsh upgrades....how can being doctrinal be such a problem for the cons upgrade ?

    Its the fact that a doctrine is needed to give them any chance vs a squad of simaler price and timing.

    > The reason cons are not that picked is the same u said.
    > Moving accuracy of penals is insane and it's getting a nerf, and they allow to skip any kind of extra teching cost, like sidetech, trucks or battlephases (which is unfair is we want to say it all).

    Without current penals soviets will be at the complete mercy of okw. Everthing okw beats non ppsh cons. Volks bleed okw far less then cons do soviets. Maxim cant even stop volks from throwing incindiary grenades at them mostly.

    > The "their bonuses barely get them in line with other mainlines stock" is simply wrong.

    Cons acc f/n 0.33/0.51 +40% 0.46/0.72. Grens and volks start with 0.59/0.75. This puts cons just under base acc off grens and volks. How is this simply wrong?

    > Vet 3 cons have 0.6 RA,roughly same as IS/rifles, better than volks

    Yes that is true. Yet rifles sections volks grens have far better dps. cons do not come close to them in terms of dps. Only with ppshs at close range.

    > Their rifles have 16 damage, same as obers, but suffer from poor accuracy.
    > The 40% accuracy bonus fix this.

    It extents their effective range to mid range. This gives them a decent chance vs grens. But vs volks it still gives them lil to no chance at best.

    > There are so much doctrines with su ppsh that it's basically like the ppsh isn't doctrinal at all.
    > Same for g43.

    Now how does that justify current cons?
  • #186
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    "The Axis TDs have garunteed pen of everything that isn't an IS-2"

    This is objectively not true, unless you are talking to heavies tank destroyer, that somehoe while having no anti infantry capacity should also suck at tank killing right ?

    the panther has enough pen for guaranteed pen every shot out of the box at max range against every allied piece of non doc armur with the lone exception of brit anvil/hammer techs

    additionally the only unit a JT can bounce, is itself, the elefant has a small chance of bouncing the IS-2

    and TECHNICALLY both the elefant and the JT have LIMITED AI, not no AI, the JT has its airbuirst shell and also actually has an AOE radius of 1.25,, half that of the p4 but much larger than any other AT only vehicle (whom have an AOE of 0.5) and the elefant as funny as it is, has a small, shitty hull MG (actually has ~3 dps long and ~12 dps as point blank which is more than the firefly coaxial, so i mean it COULD fight an AI squad i guess which no su85 or jackson or jp4 could ever think of doing....)

    BUT here we are again where you are saying something both objectively and statistically wrong, if you consider dealing 280 damage per shot (1.5 regular shells or 3 shreks worth of damage) from some of the longest ranges in the game with little to no chance of deflection then i guess you are correct, they will suck at tank killing.

  • #187
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > "The Axis TDs have garunteed pen of everything that isn't an IS-2"
    >
    > This is objectively not true, unless you are talking to heavies tank destroyer, that somehoe while having no anti infantry capacity should also suck at tank killing right ?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > the panther has enough pen for guaranteed pen every shot out of the box at max range against every allied piece of non doc armur with the lone exception of brit anvil/hammer techs
    >
    > additionally the only unit a JT can bounce, is itself, the elefant has a small chance of bouncing the IS-2
    >
    > and TECHNICALLY both the elefant and the JT have LIMITED AI, not no AI, the JT has its airbuirst shell and also actually has an AOE radius of 1.25,, half that of the p4 but much larger than any other AT only vehicle (whom have an AOE of 0.5) and the elefant as funny as it is, has a small, shitty hull MG (actually has ~3 dps long and ~12 dps as point blank which is more than the firefly coaxial, so i mean it COULD fight an AI squad i guess which no su85 or jackson or jp4 could ever think of doing....)
    >
    > BUT here we are again where you are saying something both objectively and statistically wrong, if you consider dealing 280 damage per shot (1.5 regular shells or 3 shreks worth of damage) from some of the longest ranges in the game with little to no chance of deflection then i guess you are correct, they will suck at tank killing.

    Exactly, the statement anything but is get reliably pen its false, as the list includes brits heavies.

    It's the most expensive stock tank destroyer, and it can pen stock tanks.
    Nothing out of this world like you are trying to make it look.
    Firefly and jackson pen king tiger mostly with no issues and don't suffer from poor accuracy like panther + poor range.
    And we all know price differences.

    All good, but
    1) half aoe than panzer 4 is nothing, panzer 4 itself has the weakest ai capacity compared to all mediums.
    2)funny thing you consider the hull mg of the slowest rotation unturretted tank destroyer dps.
    Than you compare it's poor performances to another td.
    It's not like t34 hull (only hull mg) it's two times as powerful.
    3)if we want to be "TECHNICAL" jackson and jadgpanzer 4 CAN kill enemy squads with their main gun after constantly shooting at them.
    It doesn't mean it's something viable.

    They have only one purpose, tank killing, straw man over a few numbers is useless.

    Again, a lot of cherrypicking.
    What made heavy td balanced was the fact that they have same accuracy of other td.
    Over the "longest ranges" in game missing against allies target sizes wasn't uncommon, and it needed more than 2 shots to kill vehicles.
    Now that they have got no accuracy buff, the dps will increase drastically, because it's not just "one more shot at longest range".
  • #188
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    How is that even a point ?
    No i don't have any footage of jadgtiger being stunned now.

    Then you'll drop it until you do. Good.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    This is objectively not true, unless you are talking to heavies tank destroyer, that somehoe while having no anti infantry capacity should also suck at tank killing right ?

    I am talking about only the heavies - the heavies that do have similar AoE to PIVs, that have more range than any other unit in the game, and will cripple a medium to combat uselessness in 2 shots, rather than killing them. Get some footage to support your claim or get over it.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    And this is why the only nerf they need is price increase, than they need to get a decent upgrade that isn't subpar g43 for 60 muni

    Why?

    annnd then you go on about Obers again. Still a non-issue, no argument here. Moving on.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Both panther mg's suck compared to the most mediocre generalist.
    You need the pintle to surpass a t34 in dps, but the t34 main gun are something called AOE.
    "better mg" is the perfect smokescreen i guess.

    Yup, and AT Guns suck at killing inf compared to snipers, but you know what? That's because AT Guns do other things. The T34 is worse at literally everything else but being cheap and killing infantry. So boo hoo.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    The teching part is nonsense.

    Nope.

  • #189
    2 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited July 2017

    @Lazarus said:

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    How is that even a point ?
    No i don't have any footage of jadgtiger being stunned now.

    Then you'll drop it until you do. Good.

    It says in the fall balance preview changelog that jagd will get stunned with rear armor pens, so that is a fair claim. I do not see why he would need to get footage of it.

  • #190
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017
    > @Lazarus ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > How is that even a point ?
    > No i don't have any footage of jadgtiger being stunned now.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Then you'll drop it until you do. Good.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > This is objectively not true, unless you are talking to heavies tank destroyer, that somehoe while having no anti infantry capacity should also suck at tank killing right ?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I am talking about only the heavies - the heavies that do have similar AoE to PIVs, that have more range than any other unit in the game, and will cripple a medium to combat uselessness in 2 shots, rather than killing them. Get some footage to support your claim or get over it.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > And this is why the only nerf they need is price increase, than they need to get a decent upgrade that isn't subpar g43 for 60 muni
    >
    > Why?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > annnd then you go on about Obers again. Still a non-issue, no argument here. Moving on.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > Both panther mg's suck compared to the most mediocre generalist.
    > You need the pintle to surpass a t34 in dps, but the t34 main gun are something called AOE.
    > "better mg" is the perfect smokescreen i guess.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Yup, and AT Guns suck at killing inf compared to snipers, but you know what? That's because AT Guns do other things. The T34 is worse at literally everything else but being cheap and killing infantry. So boo hoo.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > The teching part is nonsense.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Nope.

    It's clearly said in the balance patch.
    Rear hits stun the jadgtiger,

    Again, nice strawman
    Heavy td have same accuracy of normal td, missed and miss a lot even after the patch at max ranges.

    The "it's only one shot more" it's nonsense.
    If you don't know how dps calculation work than check it before using the only one shot argument again, because the dps curve of heavy td dropped DRASTICALLY.

    You decide with barely any point what is an issue and what isn't.
    Obers are too much expensive to be late game mainline, not including the horribad timing, which the FBP doesn't fix with the modders tier3+tier4 new teching system.

    Even cosidering the cost efficiency, volks are barely able to stand against allies mainline and drop at a much faster rate with horribad RA that even vet 3 cons have better than it.
    So I don't see fixing it a priority when volks are the only thing keeping okw game alive.
    Further changes are needed to sturms, obers, teching...

    Nice, so stop claiming mg's are a point for further nerfing panther without even giving it 200 damage, it's a rather weak and pretentious argument, considering that even the valuable mg's of mediums barely influence ai capabilities

    Yep, using arguments is the reason why the human kind stopped living in caves.

    Cost of tier4 + battlephases: 180
    Cost of tier3 + trucks + cheapest tier 1 (battlegroup): 170

    Add that tier 1 wehr is only 10 fuel and the only thing you NEED for infantry and indirect fire.

    Add that tier 3 okw can be easily indirect fire hammered and destroyed, even with long range arty regardless of where you place it...battlephases can't.
  • #191
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Reichsgarde said:

    Here are a few suggestions for the upcoming patch pertaining to the Stug III G for the Wehrmacht:

    • Improve the Stug III G's stats (fire rate, range bonus, mobility, damage, etc.) all across the board.
    • Give the Stug III G a "siege mode" like ability in which it sacrifices its mobility for higher rate of fire and defence.
    • Do NOT reduce the damage and duration for the "Target Weak Point" but make sure we can use it while on the move.

    Surely it is better to move away from having to rely on the stug? It's been Ostheer's crutch for years now. When you consider its actual cost in relation to performance and population, its been hugely overperforming for a long time.

    But the only reason its remained untouched up to now, is solely down to the fact that it has been OST's only real viable at unit past the mid-game.

    With Allied indirect having been nerfed repeatedly over the last three patches, meaning supporting elements like p-grens, grens and support weapons are no longer being erased by rockets and mortars, there is less reliance on stugs with players being able to use shreks and paks. So therefore you begin to reduce its performance slowly, as both OST is buffed and certain parts of the allies that caused the faction major issues are nerfed.

    I imagine in future, when t4 as a whole is rebalanced, the panther is fixed from its almost currently unusable state and the tiger gets its mobility buffed, then the Stug will probably see a final nerf to its insane ROF on vet, bringing it in line for its low cost.

  • #192
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited July 2017

    @Farra13 said:
    Surely it is better to move away from having to rely on the stug? It's been Ostheer's crutch for years now. When you consider its actual cost in relation to performance and population, its been hugely overperforming for a long time.

    But the only reason its remained untouched up to now, is solely down to the fact that it has been OST's only real viable at unit past the mid-game.

    With Allied indirect having been nerfed repeatedly over the last three patches, meaning supporting elements like p-grens, grens and support weapons are no longer being erased by rockets and mortars, there is less reliance on stugs with players being able to use shreks and paks. So therefore you begin to reduce its performance slowly, as both OST is buffed and certain parts of the allies that caused the faction major issues are nerfed.

    I imagine in future, when t4 as a whole is rebalanced, the panther is fixed from its almost currently unusable state and the tiger gets its mobility buffed, then the Stug will probably see a final nerf to its insane ROF on vet, bringing it in line for its low cost.

    Stug (and SU-76) should go to the direction of becoming medium Tanks TDs.

    That means that they should cost less have less pop than medium tanks and be able to counter them effectively, but on the other hand they should struggle against heavies/supper heavies even if in numbers.

    So basically both units need lower far penetration. (In addition the SU-76 needs higher XP value since it vets way to fast)

    This has to be combined with lowering the chance to hit (accuracy and/or target size changes) of the "heavy TDs" (Firefly, M36, SU-85) so they do not make medium tanks obsolete.

    (JP should either become a "medium" TD or "heavy TD")

    Panther (Ostheer) is different chapter and should probably swap places with the Tiger (as doctrinal/stock unit) to make T4 more viable.

  • #193
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited July 2017

    "Ostwind
    • 150% Damage versus aircraft. 200% damage versus aircraft at veterancy 2."

    Probably a bit too high maybe down to 125% and 150%at vet 2? or even down to 100% 125%. When I tested a single Ostwind was able to shoot down 2 p47 in their second pass (first that they can die).

    "Command Panzer IV
    • Call-in cost without Battlephase 3 or Support Armor Korps: 450/160."

    If the commander panzer get a tech cost it should have its price reduced or gun upgrade available. In addition it would allot better if the aura scaled with veterancy.

    "StuG-G
    The StuG-G’s Target Weak Point is being moved in-line with units like the Puma. Previously the ability lasted for too long, disabling a targeted vehicle for the majority of the fight. The ability will now need to be used in conjunction with other assets.
    The Target Weak Point ability has received certain QoL changes that will allow the Stug to aim and fire the ability while moving.
    • Population from 8 to 10.
    • Target Weak Point duration from 15 to 5.
    • Target Weak Point damage from 160 to 80.
    • Target Weak Point now Blinds the target in addition to disabling the target’s weapons.
    • Target Weak Point will always penetrate."

    If the pop of the stug goes up the pop of the SU-76 should also go up. for the current performance the Pop of the T-34/76 should also go up since specialized units like the Stug, Su-76 and Ostwind should have less pop then a MBT (main battle tank).

    Again TWP should probably scale with veterancy so it does not create a spike in stug performance. If you are touching Stug's performance you should move mobility bonuses to vet 2 and/or replace the armor with target size reduction.

    "StuG-E
    The StuG-E is losing its TWP ability. To push the unit towards its general anti-infantry role, it is gaining a pintle machine gun to help defend itself against infantry trying to close the distance.
    • Veterancy 1 ability from TWP to free pintle machine gun (same MG as the StuG-G)."

    As a vet 1 ability a barrage and/or a direct fire mode similar to Leig would be far better since the unit has trouble defending itself against light tanks/vehicles. That would additionally fit Stug E real role since it has a gun almost identical to Leig.

    "Stuka Dive Bomb
    The Stuka has received a cost increase and removal of its instant death critical against infantry to better reflect its pin-point accuracy, lack of flare warning and large AOE radius.
    • Increase AoE damage multiplier from 1/0.35/0.05 to 1/0.35/0.08.
    • Increased cost to 200.
    • Will no longer instantly kill infantry within its AOE radius. Previously it could instant kill any infantry model up to 15 in-game meters."

    The ability is rather expensive maybe better suited to 180 mu. The cooldown should be increased since the ability cna be used too often.

    My actual suggestion would be that this ability becomes a doctrinal counter to emplacement either by increasing damage vs emplacements and/or bypassing some of the brace damage reduction. (performance vs other targets could be lowered if there ability become to good)

  • #194
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032
    edited July 2017

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    It's clearly said in the balance patch.
    Rear hits stun the jadgtiger,

    I didn't dispute that. I disputed that this change would become a major balance issue. So. Replay of it being a major balance issue or no more.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    >

    The "it's only one shot more" it's nonsense.

    Nope. Also, didn't say it's only one shot more. I said "it's only one shot more from literally anything". Even a Panzerfaust. Congratulations - you don't even have to build another dedicated AT unit. You just have to have a Gren, Volk or Fusilier standing literally anywhere in supporting range of the Jagd/Ele to kill an aggressive allied medium.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Obers are too much expensive to be late game mainline

    They aren't mainline. Volks are always the mainline. Obers are just late game DPS to stand behind your Volks. Think of it like a MG. It's a force multiplier. Not a force.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Nice, so stop claiming mg's are a point for further nerfing panther without even giving it 200 damage, it's a rather weak and pretentious argument, considering that even the valuable mg's of mediums barely influence ai capabilities

    I said that because it was easier to access was the reason it didn't need 200 damage.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Yep, using arguments is the reason why the human kind stopped living in caves.

    I'm not going to argue against something that has no merit.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Cost of tier4 + battlephases: 180
    Cost of tier3 + trucks + cheapest tier 1 (battlegroup): 170

    Add that tier 1 wehr is only 10 fuel and the only thing you NEED for infantry and indirect fire.

    .. aaaand completely forget how much easier it is for OKW to maintain map control as an early aggressive faction while it is significantly more difficult for a defensive faction like Ost. I dunno. It's like they aren't identical?

  • #195
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @Lazarus ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > It's clearly said in the balance patch.
    > Rear hits stun the jadgtiger,
    >
    >
    >
    > I didn't dispute that. I disputed that this change would become a major balance issue. So. Replay of it being a major balance issue or no more.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    >
    >
    > The "it's only one shot more" it's nonsense.
    >
    >
    > Nope. Also, didn't say it's only one shot more. I said "it's only one shot more from literally anything". Even a Panzerfaust. Congratulations - you don't even have to build another dedicated AT unit. You just have to have a Gren, Volk or Fusilier standing literally anywhere in supporting range of the Jagd/Ele to kill an aggressive allied medium.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > Obers are too much expensive to be late game mainline
    >
    >
    > They aren't mainline. Volks are always the mainline. Obers are just late game DPS to stand behind your Volks. Think of it like a MG. It's a force multiplier. Not a force.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > Nice, so stop claiming mg's are a point for further nerfing panther without even giving it 200 damage, it's a rather weak and pretentious argument, considering that even the valuable mg's of mediums barely influence ai capabilities
    >
    > I said that because it was easier to access was the reason it didn't need 200 damage.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > Yep, using arguments is the reason why the human kind stopped living in caves.
    >
    >
    > I'm not going to argue against something that has no merit.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > Cost of tier4 + battlephases: 180
    > Cost of tier3 + trucks + cheapest tier 1 (battlegroup): 170
    >
    > Add that tier 1 wehr is only 10 fuel and the only thing you NEED for infantry and indirect fire.
    > .. aaaand completely forget how much easier it is for OKW to maintain map control as an early aggressive faction while it is significantly more difficult for a defensive faction like Ost. I dunno. It's like they aren't identical?

    Given that the first two shots hit the tank, which again goes to the accuracy issue.
    Before 2 shots were far from being 2 sure hits, and accuracy hasn't been changed.

    Given that a 0.4 accuracy means missing IN AVERAGE 1-2 shots each landed shot, in the best case ttk was doubled.

    Going around about volks/gren spam or considering other at sources is nonsense.

    And we come to the same point.
    Volks can't deal with other mainlines like grens, just because of 30 mp more.
    No you need 340 mp unit that if hit by a mortar and deprived of 2 models basically become a crippled zombie squad.
    This while you can't have as much obers presence as grens.
    And once obers are back healing/reinforcing (and consider frp nerf and broken reinforce time) what are new volks going to do against double bar, now that tanks are bullied by newly buffed tank destroyers (because axis can lose it's armor advantage, but allies mainline has to dominate over axis one because of balance)?

    How is that easier to access ?
    I already showed you prices.
    Ost has something called team weapons, by no way a faction that can place bunkers near fuel on sides of map, has one of the 2 best hmg in game, the best mortar after pit, flamethrowers...

    If you can't use ost it's not my problem, but ost itself performed quite good at gcs while okw performances were horribad.

    And even by just hearing at you it's ridicolous, the most defensive oriented faction in the game after brits, with tier 0 hmg right at the start has problems in ground control ?
    For real ?
  • #196
    2 years ago

    Having played several games with the FBP I wanted to ask what people think of the changes to the FRP's. I think the intent was ok but the execution leaves something to be desired. The time limits seem rather drastic/too long. I think that applying a blanket adjustment was the wrong way to go. OKW and Brits FRP are stationary while USF Major is a manuever unit. USF forward retreat point has to be supported with either and ambulance or halftrack to function. I just personally found the times too long overall on all FRP's and with the Major is just seems to detract so much that I stopped using it for FRP.

  • #197
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    I don't know why some people have difficulty understanding the idea behind improving the Stug III G's performance in an overall sense. When you increase the population cost by 2 points, this means that the unit is more valuable as it prevents the player from producing other units. Stug's performance must match its population cost. To be quite honest, I wouldn't mind if Relic didn't touch the Stug at all but if Relic must change the status quo, please do so in a way that doesn't make Soviet and Allied tank destroyers much stronger.

    I keep coming back to the point about the SU-76, a tank destroyer, in my honest opinion, that outperforms its German counterpart in so many ways. Think about it, it can act as a TD but also a mobile self-propelled artillery. Historically, the Stugs were very much used to the same effect. I have always wondered why Stugs never had such an ability to begin with considering how Germany depended on this underrated vehicle for the entire duration of the Second World War.

  • #198
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032
    edited July 2017

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Given that the first two shots hit the tank, which again goes to the accuracy issue.
    Before 2 shots were far from being 2 sure hits, and accuracy hasn't been changed.

    Correct. Accuracy hasn't been changed - which means the only change is adding a god damned snare in to the mix.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    Volks can't deal with other mainlines like grens, just because of 30 mp more.
    No you need 340 mp unit that if hit by a mortar and deprived of 2 models basically become a crippled zombie squad.
    This while you can't have as much obers presence as grens.

    Huh...

    @Lazarus said:
    They aren't mainline. Volks are always the mainline. Obers are just late game DPS to stand behind your Volks. Think of it like a MG. It's a force multiplier. Not a force.

    It's like I already explicitly told you that you aren't supposed to have as much Ober presence as Grens. Almost like I said they support Volks, not replace them. Almost like you need to read what I write before you waste everyones time, or start wondering why you get "nope" as a response. Bring up Obers again, you're getting a nope because you've been educated.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    How is that easier to access ?

    Map control and manpower costs.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    Ost has something called team weapons, by no way a faction that can place bunkers near fuel on sides of map, has one of the 2 best hmg in game, the best mortar after pit, flamethrowers...

    Yes. Team weapons Much like the example I gave of Obers, force multipliers - not a force. Team weapons are strong but they aren't infantry. They do not excel at assaulting or taking ground. They excel at digging in and holding people back. Almost like they're a defensive faction like I already explicitly said they were - as if you haven't revealed any new information at all and I could literally start C&Ping previous responses.

    How about you actually play the patch and show us your concerns

  • #199
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    @Reichsgarde said:
    ... depended on this underrated vehicle...

    90 fuel, one of the highest AT DPS rates (~3rd I believe assuming T34 as target?) and has an AT disable, that's far from underrated. And if you're going to compare the SU-76 and Stug, keep in mind that StuGs are more durable and inflict the normal 160 per shot versus the SU's 120.

  • #200
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    You are right about the fact that Stug III Gs are more durable than the SU-76M. However, I simply could not understand why neither the Stug III G nor the PaK 40 does not have an artillery mode whereas both the ZiS-3 and the SU-76M have artillery modes, making them highly versatile from the beginning to the very end of the game. They should add some upgrade option that costs X amount of munitions to enable the dual-artillery/AT mode on the Stug III G or allow it to switch between AT and HE shells with a temporary reload time penalty.

  • #201
    2 years ago

    I noticed one thing before this fall balance patch: sandbags can be "repaired" by British Royal engineers. Other engineers type units cannot do so, except for Soviets during the campaign. I'm thinking either make sure they can no longer do that or engineer units of the other factions (Combat Engineers, Pioneers, Rear Echelon Troops, and Sturmpioneers) are able to repair sandbags.

  • #202
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    > @Reichsgarde said:
    > You are right about the fact that Stug III Gs are more durable than the SU-76M. However, I simply could not understand why neither the Stug III G nor the PaK 40 does not have an artillery mode whereas both the ZiS-3 and the SU-76M have artillery modes, making them highly versatile from the beginning to the very end of the game. They should add some upgrade option that costs X amount of munitions to enable the dual-artillery/AT mode on the Stug III G or allow it to switch between AT and HE shells with a temporary reload time penalty.

    Why can the su76 and not the stug? They said so. much like "why can the JT shoot a barrage but not the isu who was using LITERALLY a reconfigured ML-20 howitzer"
    Additionally if yoy want historical context the zis was designed to also function at artillery able actually to out range even the lefh18 howitzer. It was an actual role of the weapon (intended) so they drew inspiration from that i suppose.

    The stug is fine, its getting nerfed becuase its too fine even. Its the OST cheese for team games because for cost they are incredibly potent and durable. Players do the same with su76, but despite the range and pen advantage there is more margine for failure because of how much less durable they are. Giving the stug a barrage, or any buff at the moment would be counter to what this patch is trying to achieve
  • #203
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @Lazarus ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > Given that the first two shots hit the tank, which again goes to the accuracy issue.
    > Before 2 shots were far from being 2 sure hits, and accuracy hasn't been changed.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Correct. Accuracy hasn't been changed - which means the only change is adding a god damned snare in to the mix.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > Volks can't deal with other mainlines like grens, just because of 30 mp more.
    > No you need 340 mp unit that if hit by a mortar and deprived of 2 models basically become a crippled zombie squad.
    > This while you can't have as much obers presence as grens.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Huh...
    >
    > @Lazarus said:
    > They aren't mainline. Volks are always the mainline. Obers are just late game DPS to stand behind your Volks. Think of it like a MG. It's a force multiplier. Not a force.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > It's like I already explicitly told you that you aren't supposed to have as much Ober presence as Grens. Almost like I said they support Volks, not replace them. Almost like you need to read what I write before you waste everyones time, or start wondering why you get "nope" as a response. Bring up Obers again, you're getting a nope because you've been educated.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > How is that easier to access ?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Map control and manpower costs.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > Ost has something called team weapons, by no way a faction that can place bunkers near fuel on sides of map, has one of the 2 best hmg in game, the best mortar after pit, flamethrowers...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Yes. Team weapons Much like the example I gave of Obers, force multipliers - not a force. Team weapons are strong but they aren't infantry. They do not excel at assaulting or taking ground. They excel at digging in and holding people back. Almost like they're a defensive faction like I already explicitly said they were - as if you haven't revealed any new information at all and I could literally start C&Ping previous responses.
    >
    > How about you actually play the patch and show us your concerns

    No it doesn't get one more faust because 2 shots will hardly always land.
    Realistically in the best case you miss one shot, so elephant require three shots to kill normally.
    With this patch you need three shot and another hit.
    It doesn't cripple anything and gives no critical, it killed any killinhlg potential of superheavy, considering the allies racecars can get out fast of thistricky situation with such high ttk.
    At max range it will require six elephant shots to kill.

    And it's like I explicit told you this system can't work and you didn't even read it.
    What if a mortar hit obers ?
    They can't be your main stopping power for whole mid late without being mainline.

    It opens for so much weaknesses to indirect fire, focusing fire on obers.

    No way okw needs elites to hold ubersoldaten allies mainline.
    Obers have their role of anti elite/defensive power/ capping brute force (that okw lacks otherwise).

    All because of the utter broken original design right ?
    That smart piece of game design that game volks a shreck...

    No faction should ne designed in elite forces usage.
    1) It is an incentive in spamming indirect fire for the opponent.
    2) those units aren't designed to be fielded in numbers bigger than 2 squads.
    3) designing those to be more accessible would require nerfs.

    And how a mid-late unit is going to help okw to hold ground more than mg's and team weapons at tier 0 in getting ground control ?

    You are desperately trying to add stuff in the mix in hope of finding a proper argument.
    Regardless of the kubel capping power (that ends at min 8) OST have a much easier time in getting ground and controlling it around the fuel hotspot.
    It can also invest mp to get fuel caches, so it has no issues getting more fuel than okw.

    What is the problem dude ? i'm playing the patch since three days, and it doesn't feature any change to volks and obers...
  • #204
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017
    > @TheLeveler83 ha detto:
    > .> @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > And again when half or so of SU doctrines have ppsh upgrades....how can being doctrinal be such a problem for the cons upgrade ?
    >
    > Its the fact that a doctrine is needed to give them any chance vs a squad of simaler price and timing.
    >
    > > The reason cons are not that picked is the same u said.
    > > Moving accuracy of penals is insane and it's getting a nerf, and they allow to skip any kind of extra teching cost, like sidetech, trucks or battlephases (which is unfair is we want to say it all).
    >
    > Without current penals soviets will be at the complete mercy of okw. Everthing okw beats non ppsh cons. Volks bleed okw far less then cons do soviets. Maxim cant even stop volks from throwing incindiary grenades at them mostly.
    >
    > > The "their bonuses barely get them in line with other mainlines stock" is simply wrong.
    >
    > Cons acc f/n 0.33/0.51 +40% 0.46/0.72. Grens and volks start with 0.59/0.75. This puts cons just under base acc off grens and volks. How is this simply wrong?
    >
    > > Vet 3 cons have 0.6 RA,roughly same as IS/rifles, better than volks
    >
    > Yes that is true. Yet rifles sections volks grens have far better dps. cons do not come close to them in terms of dps. Only with ppshs at close range.
    >
    > > Their rifles have 16 damage, same as obers, but suffer from poor accuracy.
    > > The 40% accuracy bonus fix this.
    >
    > It extents their effective range to mid range. This gives them a decent chance vs grens. But vs volks it still gives them lil to no chance at best.
    >
    > > There are so much doctrines with su ppsh that it's basically like the ppsh isn't doctrinal at all.
    > > Same for g43.
    >
    > Now how does that justify current cons?
    >
    >

    Nope it's not wrong.
    Cons have 16 damage in their mosin, sane as obers, but low accuracy.
    Grens have 10 damage, volks (lower accuracy) 12 damage.
    So it's objectively not true, cons keep up quite well and the low accuracy is balance by high damage.
    That's why vet3 dps curve, taking consideration of everything is ok.

    As you said, cons at vet 3 have chances at close range, their range.
  • #205
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032
    edited July 2017

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    No it doesn't get one more faust because 2 shots will hardly always land.

    Yes. Just like right now. Which means it will perform exactly as it currently does - except you will need literally anything to do the finishing blow. Offense stats wise - the performance will be identical if you follow up with literally anything. All it takes is an extra faust on to of the current level of performance.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:>
    What if a mortar hit obers ?

    Same thing that happens when a mortar hits a MG squad. Big whoop?

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    They can't be your main stopping power for whole mid late without being mainline.

    Yes, they can be. They are your DPS, your Volks are your main line. Not that complicated.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    And how a mid-late unit is going to help okw to hold ground more than mg's and team weapons at tier 0 in getting ground control ?

    It's not. Volks are going to help OKW hold more ground. Because early mid is when Volks absolutely shine because the Allies haven't matched you squad for squad. You've also got the Kubel for early capping and harassing and a plethora of light vehicles or the FRP at your disposal to help you maintain that ground. OKW is the aggressive Axis faction. That's not even new information. That's just it.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    What is the problem dude ? i'm playing the patch since three days, and it doesn't feature any change to volks and obers...

    You know what? You're actually right. Lets stop talking about Volks and Obers because they aren't a part of this patch (I'd be happy to continue to educate you if you open a thread for it though - be my guest). Lets just focus on your claim that heavy TDs no longer work - you've got 3 days of replays to share with us that prove this point so I'm eager to see your evidence.

  • #206
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640
    edited July 2017

    @Reichsgarde said:
    You are right about the fact that Stug III Gs are more durable than the SU-76M. However, I simply could not understand why neither the Stug III G nor the PaK 40 does not have an artillery mode whereas both the ZiS-3 and the SU-76M have artillery modes, making them highly versatile from the beginning to the very end of the game. They should add some upgrade option that costs X amount of munitions to enable the dual-artillery/AT mode on the Stug III G or allow it to switch between AT and HE shells with a temporary reload time penalty.

    Because they never had it historically, while SU-76 and ZiS-3(which SU-76 uses) did.

    Soviets equivalents are more versatile, but Ost ones are much better at their designated jobs.

    Neither StuG 3 nor PaK 40 lack anything.

  • #207
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017
    > @Lazarus ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > No it doesn't get one more faust because 2 shots will hardly always land.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Yes. Just like right now. Which means it will perform exactly as it currently does - except you will need literally anything to do the finishing blow. Offense stats wise - the performance will be identical if you follow up with literally anything. All it takes is an extra faust on to of the current level of performance.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:>
    > What if a mortar hit obers ?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Same thing that happens when a mortar hits a MG squad. Big whoop?
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > They can't be your main stopping power for whole mid late without being mainline.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Yes, they can be. They are your DPS, your Volks are your main line. Not that complicated.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > And how a mid-late unit is going to help okw to hold ground more than mg's and team weapons at tier 0 in getting ground control ?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > It's not. Volks are going to help OKW hold more ground. Because early mid is when Volks absolutely shine because the Allies haven't matched you squad for squad. You've also got the Kubel for early capping and harassing and a plethora of light vehicles or the FRP at your disposal to help you maintain that ground. OKW is the aggressive Axis faction. That's not even new information. That's just it.
    >
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    >
    > What is the problem dude ? i'm playing the patch since three days, and it doesn't feature any change to volks and obers...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > You know what? You're actually right. Lets stop talking about Volks and Obers because they aren't a part of this patch (I'd be happy to continue to educate you if you open a thread for it though - be my guest). Lets just focus on your claim that heavy TDs no longer work - you've got 3 days of replays to share with us that prove this point so I'm eager to see your evidence.

    Omg this is .....
    Pre patch could take 2 hits, so 3-4 shots with 2 misses.
    Yestarday my elephant shot took 4 shots to hit a jackson 2 times and jackson still went away.

    You have no clue of how ttk works right ?
    "Exactly like before but one more shot hurr durr"
    It's a "bit" more complicated.
    Regardless of other units, the nerf without accuracy buff killed ttk.

    How is that the same.
    Any mainline have a fighting chance againt any other mainline at a specific nerf, except volks (that only win against cons from mid to long).
    Making volks osttruppen for such a high price is nonsense first of all.
    Second obers don't have the range of an mg, the comparison is totally off.
    Third again tell me why wouldn't be braindead easy to get a sniper or focus fire on obers and than steam roll (which maybe is what you want) ?

    Cool idea of the screened obers, you know what was a cool idea too ? Kubel suppression.

    All these cools idea that overbuff/nerf factions because in your own single mind (because it isn't wrote anywhere) you have the concept of okw forced in relying on cheap infantry by stock because of having a stock elite (with a completely different role that has nothing to do with "dps").

    http://www.coh2-stats.com/compare?utf8=✓&squad1=volksgrenadier_squad_mp&squad2=riflemen_squad_mp&commit=Compare

    http://www.coh2-stats.com/compare?utf8=✓&squad1=volksgrenadier_squad_mp&squad2=penal_battalion_mp&commit=Compare

    Absolutely wrong, all allies mainline are superior from starts at any range, but penals at extreme long, and the closer they get the bigger is the advantage.
    Is win regardless of range if in cover.
    I don't see the problem here, volks work with sturm pretty much well, but sturm + volk is 550mp, 2 rifles are 560.
    And sturm + volk isn't as braindead to micro as 2 rifles.
    So no, there is no real advantage except okw player ability in microing sturm, which itself has a lot of potential, but isn't as braindead easy as using rifles.

    But volks themselfs never "shine" over anything that isn't cons, that cost 5 less to reinforce and 10 mp less and with the ppsh are able to beat stg volks at close range.

    How is balanced to further nerf them in performances when it's clear that volks and raketen are the only thing getting okw togheter.

    Volks themselfs are a mainline, should work as mainline, and like grens should (and they don't now) compete with other at a specified range where they can 1vs1 enemy infantry, regardless of cost that can be increased.

    The stg itself is an expensive underwhelming upgrade compared to everything including bar/bren/g43

    Considered it's 30 muni per stg, it's underwhelming compared to garand

    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=riflemen_squad_mp
    http://www.stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=volksgrenadier_squad_mp

    Grens lose at pretty much any range but mid-long against allies mainline, but THEY HAVE their range, that makes them compete if used right.
  • #208
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    edited July 2017
    @SAY_MY_NAME could you please use the quote feature properly/cut out unnecessary quotes? I don't think I'm exaggerating by saying that you have flooded many threads with literal walls of text. Kappa.
  • #209
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032
    edited July 2017

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    Omg this is .....
    Pre patch could take 2 hits, so 3-4 shots with 2 misses.
    Yestarday my elephant shot took 4 shots to hit a jackson 2 times and jackson still went away.

    Precise. So Fall patch it would take you 4 shots and 1 literal anything to kill a Jackson. Get the picture? Or is that too complicated for you? Like I can't believe it has taken more than a single post for you to get this.

  • #210
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 693
    @SAY_MY_NAME

    Grens do 16 damage as well, they also have better rof and acc but 2 models less then cons.

    The fewer high dps models keep grens balanced vs cons and the more low acc models keeps cons balanced vs grens. At mid range they trade about equely. Wf inf screw this up.

    However grens volks and allied counterparts all have acces to upgrades. Wich in turn makes them all scale loads better then cons. Cons only have durability and oorah in late game non doc.

    And after whate vipper explained ill see if merge can make up for lacking dps/upgrade in late game.
  • #211
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @Lazarus ha detto:

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    Omg this is .....
    Pre patch could take 2 hits, so 3-4 shots with 2 misses.
    Yestarday my elephant shot took 4 shots to hit a jackson 2 times and jackson still went away.

    Precise. So Fall patch it would take you 4 shots and 1 literal anything to kill a Jackson. Get the picture? Or is that too complicated for you? Like I can't believe it has taken more than a single post for you to get this.

    "4 shots and litterally anything" means 6 (!!!!!) elephant shots with the 0.5 average elephant accuracy to destroy,
    "one anything" it's utter stupid, we are talking about heavies ttk.
    Their range is simply too long to suppose there's a faust there at range.
    If their accuracy would have been buffed it would have meant that elephant could have killed with new accuracy in 3-4 shots aka 3 hits with 0 or 1 miss.
    Now it keeps missing half of shots and takes 1 more shots.
    The single most expensive tank destroyer alone can't reliably destroy tanks without any support.

    I still need to try jadgtiger, but elephant was hammered.
    They surely want to put an end to the stug dominancy......

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