[ALL][Teammodes] AT grenades

#1
2 weeks ago
BogeyfoxBogeyfox Posts: 17
edited August 7 in Balance Feedback

AT grenades from all regular units seem to be to OP. Why does a 30 ammo on a t0 unit cripples a t4 tank and on top deals dmg? That shoudl be reserved to mines.
Axis is no longer very ammo intensive so they can always use it in the mid to late game...
Make these grenade crippeling but not dmg. This will solve a lot of problems, like t0 infantry units blob taking out a tank while harrassing infantry.

Comments

  • #2
    1 week ago
    kingdun3284kingdun32… Posts: 1,086

    How to damage an engine without damage the vehicle itself? Thus, the HP is reduced.

  • #3
    1 week ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 504
    Welcome to the balance section of the forum. If you need help please go to the general discussion section of the forum.
  • #4
    1 week ago
    BogeyfoxBogeyfox Posts: 17

    Hey king,
    thanks for your input. The idea of HP is an idea for games. A tank has no hit points. It's not like hitting a tank ten times and then the core is open like a convertable... For a game it's fine. So a tank is either crippled because tracks or the engine is hit, but it doesn't penetrate the core. In a game it would make much more sense esp. for those running mines to be either or. Damage the hull or cripple it but not both. The reason why i suggest to cripple it is simply because if it's random huge blobs of inif units still can kill a tank without a single AT unit. I think this makes it pretty easy esp. for axis to roam with blobs not taking any big risks.
    Or increase the ammo to 50 and it would be fine too.

  • #5
    1 week ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,872

    If you're losing tanks to huge blobs of snares then you simply aren't kiting properly. Snares all have rather short ranges and if your opponent is killing your tanks with snares alone. On top of that, if he's killing your tanks with nothing but snares, he's burning 200+ munitions to do so which is a huge waste and means you likely lost field presence at some point. Just back it up if you see a snare blob and they can't do anything to you.

  • #6
    1 week ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,007

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Hey king,
    thanks for your input. The idea of HP is an idea for games. A tank has no hit points. It's not like hitting a tank ten times and then the core is open like a convertable... For a game it's fine. So a tank is either crippled because tracks or the engine is hit, but it doesn't penetrate the core. In a game it would make much more sense esp. for those running mines to be either or. Damage the hull or cripple it but not both. The reason why i suggest to cripple it is simply because if it's random huge blobs of inif units still can kill a tank without a single AT unit. I think this makes it pretty easy esp. for axis to roam with blobs not taking any big risks.
    Or increase the ammo to 50 and it would be fine too.

    Have you played Men of War: Assault Squad 2?
    Something tells me you'll love it.

  • #7
    1 week ago
    BogeyfoxBogeyfox Posts: 17

    Aqua said:
    If you're losing tanks to huge blobs of snares then you simply aren't kiting properly. Snares all have rather short ranges and if your opponent is killing your tanks with snares alone. On top of that, if he's killing your tanks with nothing but snares, he's burning 200+ munitions to do so which is a huge waste and means you likely lost field presence at some point. Just back it up if you see a snare blob and they can't do anything to you.

    You're right in a 1vs1 game. I'm talking about 2v2,3v3,4v4 where ammo is much more rdly available in the mid/late game.
    It won't harm a 1vs1 game and will pretty much improve the other games.
    Kiting - yes but hurra and other perks can make it pretty hard...
    Out of context: Tanks weren't running because 3 units with rifles were attacking ...

  • #8
    1 week ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 793
    @Katitof CoH was good because it was realistic BUT not as buggy and unplayable as Men of War: Assault Squad 2. Back to the roots and don't make this game worse.
  • #9
    1 week ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,007

    @Widerstreit said:
    @Katitof CoH was good because it was realistic BUT not as buggy and unplayable as Men of War: Assault Squad 2. Back to the roots and don't make this game worse.

    I don't think you've played the same CoH1 I did.
    There was nothing realistic about CoH1, Tetrarch tanks were viable counter for Tiger and King Tiger, infantry were all over the place.

  • #10
    1 week ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,130 mod
    (moderator input) and back to topic!
  • #11
    1 week ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 793
    edited August 8
    @Katitof new profile picture ^^

    In comparison to other games that times it was very historical in design. Also the engine tried to look realistic and not too dramatic. The benefits of CoH are its simple controlling with an authenticate atmosphere. CoH2 destroyed that over the years, at least with Brits with their fantasy design and their bad balance. (the hole time-line of units are inconsistent. Units of 1942 are fighting post-1945 stuff, that simply looks stupid) .

    The game was going to a state of being no CoH anymore, because it felt and looked too different in comparison of its roots. Too much fantasy and too less historical accuracy. Too many illogical teaching-ways, too less alternatives.

    But I have too say, that this patch is going on a good way! But the game is so cheesy, it needs MUCH more. ;) Redesign every fraction, every commander, every unit. The engine can handle more alternatives and changes.

    Look at the history to create a fraction, units and tactics.

    Quality versus quantity. Different unit-types and enough alternatives. More individuality. No no-brainer anymore. That is what I want, and that is what most people wished CoH2 should look like.
  • #12
    1 week ago
    company14u2company14… Posts: 558

    They will not be able to nerf/buff when an at grenade can engine damage a tank. The current system works in coh2 and I would leave it, but I would change the way it works in coh3. I would base the engine damage, when hit by an at grenade at % health, depending on the type of tank.
    Here is what I have in mind:
    Flanking tanks need to be at least 50% hp or less to be snared
    Tank destroyers need to stay at least 75% or even more depending on how high their hp pool is.
    Heavy multirole tanks can stay at 75%

    Or you could give a higher critical threshold based on veteran levels for medium type tanks.

    Coh2 is fine the way it is.

  • #13
    1 week ago
    BogeyfoxBogeyfox Posts: 17

    Hey company14u,
    still damage should apply to the core and a crippled tank should be easy prey for at-guns or at units.
    Damaging light vehicles is fine but tanks?

  • #14
    1 week ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,007
    edited August 10

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Hey company14u,
    still damage should apply to the core and a crippled tank should be easy prey for at-guns or at units.
    Damaging light vehicles is fine but tanks?

    History tip:

    A lit bottle filled with mixture of gasoline and oils, known as Molotov cocktail was enough to completely cripple tank and render it immobile.

    Anti tank grenades were used to destroy tanks and they were effective against all tanks they were used against, single one was enough to immobilize the tank or kill the crew.

    It makes PERFECT sense for AT nades to do what they do.

  • #15
    1 week ago
    company14u2company14… Posts: 558
    edited August 11

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Hey company14u,
    still damage should apply to the core and a crippled tank should be easy prey for at-guns or at units.
    Damaging light vehicles is fine but tanks?

    Well, if you flank with your infantry and catch a tank off guard, you should be rewarded. However, this should apply to tank too. Tanks that only can pen another tank from the rear or side (hopefully they will add side armor if coh3 is created), is riskier to use than a tank that snipes targets from range. So Crit threshold should be higher or the threshold could be unlocked at different veteran lvls. In the earlier game, you will be facing other mediums face to face.
    I guess I am getting off track, but I do have a lot of ideas on making coh3 better than coh2.
    I don't have modding skills, but with ideas of mine, I could end blobbing(bullets passing through models will discourage some forms of blobbing) and make it always possible to flank (being able to pierce side armor if you are not shooting from a steep angle). Also, having counter to sim city with artillery spotters(ground based infantry) instead of using off maps.
    Eh! I have too many ideas.

  • #16
    2 days ago
    BogeyfoxBogeyfox Posts: 17

    @Katitof said:

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Hey company14u,
    still damage should apply to the core and a crippled tank should be easy prey for at-guns or at units.
    Damaging light vehicles is fine but tanks?

    History tip:

    A lit bottle filled with mixture of gasoline and oils, known as Molotov cocktail was enough to completely cripple tank and render it immobile.

    Anti tank grenades were used to destroy tanks and they were effective against all tanks they were used against, single one was enough to immobilize the tank or kill the crew.

    It makes PERFECT sense for AT nades to do what they do.

    I was talking about those AT grenade from regular units. I don 't midn if tank killers with their special grenades do damage and crippeling. Regular units... And again it's a game where balancing is important. Btw a molotov at the right spot aye in an urban environment. In open field there was no chance to place it or even to get close....

  • #17
    2 days ago

    This will mean that light vehicles will literally run amok early game since they can easily outmaneuver AT guns and infantry AT. Where are your infantry to cover your tanks?

    You haven't thought this through have you? This sounds more like a ''I can't reverse my tanks quickly enough because I don't know T is the hotkey for reverse'' problem than a genuine balance issue.

  • #18
    1 day ago
    BogeyfoxBogeyfox Posts: 17

    @For the rest of his life said:
    This will mean that light vehicles will literally run amok early game since they can easily outmaneuver AT guns and infantry AT.

    I was talking about tanks, which are not light vehicles. >Why does a 30 ammo on a t0 unit cripples a t4 tank and on top deals dmg?

    Where are your infantry to cover your tanks?

    Why don't I have air-cover and a god-like button?

    You haven't thought this through have you? This sounds more like a ''I can't reverse my tanks quickly enough because I don't know T is the hotkey for reverse'' problem than a genuine balance issue.

    I was pointing out that the ability for regular units to snare/crippel and dmg tanks is IMHO too overpowered for the costs. It also makes doctrine tank! hunter units pretty obsolete.

    If they introduce tank-roll-over-infantry (btw you can't roll over MGs./Mortars.....) and at the same time this will kill the tank due to the regular special abilities of t0 units...

  • #19
    1 day ago

    @Bogeyfox said:

    I was talking about tanks, which are not light vehicles. >Why does a 30 ammo on a t0 unit cripples a t4 tank and on top deals dmg?

    You should have been clearer, because as I recall, stuart, T-70 and luchs are tanks, and you didn't specifically state what ''tanks'' you were talking about

    I was pointing out that the ability for regular units to snare/crippel and dmg tanks is IMHO too overpowered for the costs. It also makes doctrine tank! hunter units pretty obsolete.

    Yes and how are superheavies like the jagdtiger, elefant and king tiger supposed to be flanked without good synergy with infantry to snare them? Again you seem very short-sighted instead of looking at the overall picture

    I was pointing out that the ability for regular units to snare/crippel and dmg tanks is IMHO too overpowered for the costs. It also makes doctrine tank! hunter units pretty obsolete.
    If they introduce tank-roll-over-infantry (btw you can't roll over MGs./Mortars.....) and at the same time this will kill the tank due to the regular special abilities of t0 units...

    So instead of blaming the one useless tank hunter commander you decide to blame all units with AT snare? Also surprise surprise tanks shouldn't just run over infantry because they have portable short range AT, obviously this is OP and must be nerfed because tanks should just run over infantry with reckless abandon!

    This is a non-issue really because tanks should never be used alone and tbh sounds more like a micromanagement problem you have.

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