[SOV][ALL] Stolen weapon's crew

#1
2 months ago
RiCERiCE Posts: 1,586

I think a re-crewed support weapon's crew should have the default crew performance instead of inheriting the new squad's stats. A couple of days ago a Shocktrooper squad stolen a Rkw47 AT gun. Retreated and reinforced up to 6 men. The new soviet AT gun crew killed a G43 Panzerfusilier squad. The best part is you cannot easily tell what performance a weapon crew will have. No one zooms on the models in the middle of a fight to double check what they are. I have not expected an AT gun crew to destroy a 290MP + 90MU squad with no problem.

«1

Comments

  • #2
    2 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,860
    Interesting. Obviously crew reinforcement costs would need adjusted in kind, but is it even possible?
  • #3
    2 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,420
    edited August 8

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Interesting. Obviously crew reinforcement costs would need adjusted in kind, but is it even possible?

    The reinforcement cost is as far as I know that of Shock troops squad.

    One the other hand one can use merge instead of reinforce in which case the cost goes down.

  • #4
    2 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,040

    @Vipper said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Interesting. Obviously crew reinforcement costs would need adjusted in kind, but is it even possible?

    The reinforcement cost is as far as I know that of Shock troops squad.

    One the other hand one can use merge instead of reinforce in which case the cost goes down.

    Its reinforcement cost of a unit which picked the weapon up as well as entities default weapon and model properties(base rec acc, armor ect). You can use merge, but then durability will drop by a lot while population per model won't, so you might just as well crew with cons from get go instead of have awkward, high pop squad.

    Its also that units upkeep+weapons upkeep.
    If someone wants to have 20 pop cap pak, let him have it.(not the actual value)

  • #5
    2 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,420
    edited August 8

    If a weapon is crewed by Penal/Guards/Shock and then merged to, the conscript entities will have SVTs/improved naggat/PPsh as weapon and thus will have superior firepower compared to a weapon crewed by conscripts.

    It will also be cheaper than to reinforce the elite infantry entities.

  • #6
    2 months ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,147 mod
    edited August 8

    Let's not only list the advantages of merging, but also the disadvantages. I do not believe obfuscation is any good. :)

  • #7
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694
    edited August 8

    Then I better not pay 32mp for model if I recrew it with shocks. You grab a support weapon with sturms the same thing will happen. You don't need to zoom-in on the models, the sounds should give it away. If you lost the squad to an AT gun crew, then you really weren't paying attention that hard.

    That's like losing a fusilier squad to a 4-man shock squad, since 2 guys are operating the stolen RK 43. It's possible, but what were you looking at that you didn't retreat?

  • #8
    2 months ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,586

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Then I better not pay 32mp for model if I recrew it with shocks. You grab a support weapon with sturms the same thing will happen. You don't need to zoom-in on the models, the sounds should give it away. If you lost the squad to an AT gun crew, then you really weren't paying attention that hard.

    That's like losing a fusilier squad to a 4-man shock squad, since 2 guys are operating the stolen RK 43. It's possible, but what were you looking at that you didn't retreat?

    Actually i was fighting on two different part of the map. I have seen my opponent tried to capture a victory point with the stolen Rkw43 an cloaked it. Since i had a Fusilier squad nearby, i just clicked them to move to the cover next to the RkW and let them fight. Normally i would never think about losing against an ATgun, so i switched back to the other fight. In close range the recrewed ATgun litreally vaporized the fusiliers.

    But i don't think question here is not whether i was paying attention or not, but is this performance really fit for an AT gun?

    https://youtu.be/_YBKB7cPZZk

  • #9
    2 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,040

    @RiCE said:
    But i don't think question here is not whether i was paying attention or not, but is this performance really fit for an AT gun?

    https://youtu.be/_YBKB7cPZZk

    Why shouldn't it?
    Its literally crewed with vet0 shock troops.

    Engage from max range or use grenades, ATGs aren't particularly good at chasing infantry or dodging nades.

  • #10
    2 months ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,586
    edited August 8

    @Katitof said:
    Its also that units upkeep+weapons upkeep.
    If someone wants to have 20 pop cap pak, let him have it.(not the actual value)

    The reinforcement cost is 32MP as it is for a normal shocktrooper squad, but you actually reinforcing shocktroopers.

    The upkeep is the same as for a ZiS gun. 8 pop for the 6 men + 1 for the weapon itself... so its 9. Except these guys has armour and not get wiped out by a sneeze.

    I think the squad should inherit the original weapon-crews stats. Ofcourse with the cheaper reinforcement cost.

  • #11
    2 months ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,893
    > @Katitof said:
    > Why shouldn't it?
    > Its literally crewed with vet0 shock troops.
    >
    > Engage from max range or use grenades, ATGs aren't particularly good at chasing infantry or dodging nades.

    Because it is an AT gun. No one has the wherewithal to check whether a specific gun is crewed by Shocks or Conscripts or Mecha-Hitler, especially if said gun is also cloaked. If a gun crew can fight off attackers who are supposed to counter them it's a problem. The general counter to AT guns is infantry. If infantry can't effectively counter the crew they are supposed to counter that's a problem. A hypocrite as always.
  • #12
    2 months ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,586
    edited August 10

    @Katitof said:
    Why shouldn't it?
    Its literally crewed with vet0 shock troops.

    Engage from max range or use grenades, ATGs aren't particularly good at chasing infantry or dodging nades.

    Yeah thanks, i know how to counter shocktroops. If i know it is a shocktroop i am facing with and not an AT gun.

    Again... shocktroops performance and durability doesn't fit for a 6 men weapon crew. In case of axis 4 men crew-weapons the squad lose 50% of its performance by handling the weapon itself. Soviets lose 33% of the squads performance. Thats just bullsh*t. It's literally like Obers would re-men an MG42 AND also keep their two LMG. But its fine because of the upkeep and reinforcement cost, right? wrong!

  • #13
    2 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,860
    To play devils advocate lets remember why shocks have armour- they have no ranged dps. The increased durabilityis as much of a variable as the ease of kite with impossibility to return fire, additionally in order to have a 6 man crew weapon armed with shocks the player will have paid the full reinforcment of 6 men minimum (assuming they reinforced the shock squad).

    The biggest issue i could see from this is camo allowing the shocks to defeat SOME of the range they would be under fire.

    But in the end you should have responded to the rapid depletement of the fussies ticket up in the top corner, if you are to assume you had the kill and got ambushed for example and ignored the alerts it would have been the same result, thats why those shields exist.
  • #14
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694
    edited August 9

    @RiCE said:
    But i don't think question here is not whether i was paying attention or not, but is this performance really fit for an AT gun?

    I think the fact that the reinforce cost for the weapon the same as the squad that re-crews it makes it pretty balanced. The soviet weapon crews are usually 15mp, if a shock squad recrews it your paying more than double.

  • #15
    2 months ago
    kingdun3284kingdun32… Posts: 1,086
    It is just like claiming no one would zoom in and look at the guy who knee down and going to fire the rifle nade. L2P, OP
  • #16
    2 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,703

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    To play devils advocate lets remember why shocks have armour- they have no ranged dps. The increased durabilityis as much of a variable as the ease of kite with impossibility to return fire, additionally in order to have a 6 man crew weapon armed with shocks the player will have paid the full reinforcment of 6 men minimum (assuming they reinforced the shock squad).

    The biggest issue i could see from this is camo allowing the shocks to defeat SOME of the range they would be under fire.

    But in the end you should have responded to the rapid depletement of the fussies ticket up in the top corner, if you are to assume you had the kill and got ambushed for example and ignored the alerts it would have been the same result, thats why those shields exist.

    It becomes an issue with MGs more than camo. Play with an Airborne Co partner and drop a couple of .50s for some Shock troops. They now have light AT, suppression, sprint and 5x PPSh + 6 models with armor. You can't stay at range. You can't flank them. You can't close with the crew. That's pretty much exclusively a "fight it with a Luchs or heavier" situation. Add on top of that you can jam them in to a garrison...

    There's not really much in terms of a solution though, it does come with a few penalties and it's so niche that it isn't creating a tremendous issue. The only thing I can say is it's another symptom of the outdated Soviet 6 man crews concept.

  • #17
    2 months ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,586
    edited August 9

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @RiCE said:
    But i don't think question here is not whether i was paying attention or not, but is this performance really fit for an AT gun?

    I think the fact that the reinforce cost for the weapon the same as the squad that re-crews it makes it pretty balanced. The soviet weapon crews are usually 15mp, if a shock squad recrews it your paying more than double.

    Paying more for something won't make it legally broken. Let me pay 1000MP+300FU for a KT but give it 500 front armor and 2000HP. It would be broken. Obviously if someone would fix this issue, the reinforcement cost should be lowered as well, but just because the reinforcement cost is high this still remains an issue.

  • #18
    2 months ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,586
    edited August 9

    @Lazarus said:
    The only thing I can say is it's another symptom of the outdated Soviet 6 man crews concept.

    Exactly. If the concept remains, at least there should be a standard weapon profile for all the crew members.
    OR
    Reinforcement should be lowered to proper AT crew reinforcement level, but it should not reinforce Shocktroops, instead the factions standard AT crew models. In other words if you pick up a weapon with Shocks, 3 men will be shocktroop as long as they don't die, but the other 3 you reinforce will be standard AT crew member as it is for the ZiS gun for example.

  • #19
    2 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,040

    @Lazarus said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    To play devils advocate lets remember why shocks have armour- they have no ranged dps. The increased durabilityis as much of a variable as the ease of kite with impossibility to return fire, additionally in order to have a 6 man crew weapon armed with shocks the player will have paid the full reinforcment of 6 men minimum (assuming they reinforced the shock squad).

    The biggest issue i could see from this is camo allowing the shocks to defeat SOME of the range they would be under fire.

    But in the end you should have responded to the rapid depletement of the fussies ticket up in the top corner, if you are to assume you had the kill and got ambushed for example and ignored the alerts it would have been the same result, thats why those shields exist.

    It becomes an issue with MGs more than camo. Play with an Airborne Co partner and drop a couple of .50s for some Shock troops. They now have light AT, suppression, sprint and 5x PPSh + 6 models with armor. You can't stay at range. You can't flank them. You can't close with the crew. That's pretty much exclusively a "fight it with a Luchs or heavier" situation. Add on top of that you can jam them in to a garrison...

    There's not really much in terms of a solution though, it does come with a few penalties and it's so niche that it isn't creating a tremendous issue. The only thing I can say is it's another symptom of the outdated Soviet 6 man crews concept.

    Synergy between factions is not a reason to buff/nerf something.

    I don't see PIATs or Vickers K being nerfed on the sole premise that they can be given to conscripts or penals.
    I don't see 251 being nerfed, just because they can be used to reinforced Volks in combat.

    You're really overdoing it now.

    Again, if someone wants to have most pop heavy weapon team in game and have benefit of it being better self protected, I don't see why not.

    You can re-crew HMGs with PGs or sturms if you want too, do you do this every game, because it gives more durable crew with better weapon?

  • #20
    2 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,703
    edited August 9

    @Katitof said:
    You're really overdoing it now.

    Cool speech bro. Maybe give it to someone who is actually asking for a nerf?

  • #21
    2 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,040

    @Lazarus said:

    @Katitof said:
    You're really overdoing it now.

    Cool speech bro. Maybe give it to someone who is actually asking for a nerf?

    Well, I was addressing your points as well and I'm pretty sure @RiCE will read it too, perhaps even get the actual point.

  • #22
    2 months ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 541
    I love recrewing mg34 with falls. Totally worth the cost. Vets up at twice the speed. Wonder if the crew get the vet 4 bonus on top of it's .87 RA and the side gunners accuracy vet
  • #23
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694
    edited August 9

    @RiCE said:
    Paying more for something won't make it legally broken. Let me pay 1000MP+300FU for a KT but give it 500 front armor and 2000HP. It would be broken.

    Well that's kind of a reach for an analogy. Re-crewing weapons is something that happens on the fly, at random, and this trait applies to all 5 factions. Does the KT?

  • #24
    2 months ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,586

    @Katitof said:
    Again, if someone wants to have most pop heavy weapon team in game and have benefit of it being better self protected, I don't see why not.

    Because it is too deceptive for the enemy player. At least there could be an indicator that tells you what are you facing with. I think expecting anyone to double check the skin of the models, or the weapon in their hands, or even the voice of them is kinda nonsense in the middle of the fight. In practice you attack an AT gun with your infantry, and lose a couple of models (or while squad) before you realize something is not right.

    You can re-crew HMGs with PGs or sturms if you want too, do you do this every game, because it gives more durable crew with better weapon?

    If axis re-crew a team weapon it will be 4 men. If shocks recrew a 6 men team weapon they keep their fighting strength and their durability as well. When you re-crew an AT gun with Guards, they don't keep their PTRS, i think Shocks should not keep their PPSh either.

  • #25
    2 months ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,586
    edited August 10

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Well that's kind of a reach for an analogy. Re-crewing weapons is something that happens on the fly, at random, and this trait applies to all 5 factions. Does the KT?

    That was a theoretical example to show higher reinforcement cost doesn't explain that performance imo.

    Only soviets have 6 men weapon crews and an elite infantry with armor and strong stock weapon. If you re-crew an AT gun with Pgrens, they lose 50% of their AI since two men will handle the gun. Shocks lose 33%

    Could be a bit better, if there would be a small icon above the weapon that indicates it is actually a shock crew i am facing with. But honestly in case of a Shocktroop its a bit over the top now.

  • #26
    2 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,040
    edited August 10

    @RiCE said:

    @Katitof said:
    Again, if someone wants to have most pop heavy weapon team in game and have benefit of it being better self protected, I don't see why not.

    Because it is too deceptive for the enemy player. At least there could be an indicator that tells you what are you facing with. I think expecting anyone to double check the skin of the models, or the weapon in their hands, or even the voice of them is kinda nonsense in the middle of the fight. In practice you attack an AT gun with your infantry, and lose a couple of models (or while squad) before you realize something is not right.

    How is it deceptive for anyone?
    Each specialist troops got very distinguish looks, shocks are pretty much impossible to confuse with anything else.
    There are no PTRS or mosin nagat or SVT shocks in game, so its quite obvious what they'll be holding there without zooming in.

    You can re-crew HMGs with PGs or sturms if you want too, do you do this every game, because it gives more durable crew with better weapon?

    If axis re-crew a team weapon it will be 4 men. If shocks recrew a 6 men team weapon they keep their fighting strength and their durability as well. When you re-crew an AT gun with Guards, they don't keep their PTRS, i think Shocks should not keep their PPSh either.

    PTRS is NOT guards default weapon.
    Mosin which performs close to Kar is.
    PPSH is default weapon shocks use.

  • #27
    2 months ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,586

    @Katitof said:
    How is it deceptive for anyone?
    Each specialist troops got very distinguish looks, shocks are pretty much impossible to confuse with anything else.
    There are no PTRS or mosin nagat or SVT shocks in game, so its quite obvious what they'll be holding there without zooming in.

    I don't know how you play, but i usually look at the squads icon, and not the skin. Especially in the heat of a battle.

    PTRS is NOT guards default weapon.
    Mosin which performs close to Kar is.
    PPSH is default weapon shocks use.

    Yes, and that is a part of this problem.

  • #28
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694

    @RiCE said:
    I don't know how you play, but i usually look at the squads icon, and not the skin. Especially in the heat of a battle.

    I tend to as well, but sounds matter too, and the Ppsh has a pretty distinct firing noise. To me though all you needed to do was see that your Fusi squad was dropping health quickly in the top right of your screen and retreat it. It's a very rare occurrence and I don't think just cause you lost the squad means the entire system needs to be changed.

    To me the worst form of this comes in pathfinders recrewing an MG/ATG. They get to keep their 50 sight range, allbeit for a 37mp reinforcement cost, and I think even that's fine. You recrew a weapon with shocks you'll be spending 172mp on the models to replace the shocks in your shock squad and the shocks in the AT gun crew just for that action alone. Then everytime that AT gun drops models its 32 from there on out. Why shouldn't it work this way?

  • #29
    2 months ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,586

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Why shouldn't it work this way?

    Again, because it is not self-explaining for your opponent what kind of weapon team he is facing with.

  • #30
    2 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,860
    edited August 10
    Would upgraded sappers also gain armour when recrewing?
  • #31
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694
    edited August 10

    @RiCE said:
    Again, because it is not self-explaining for your opponent what kind of weapon team he is facing with.

    You ignored my mention of the sound effects. Ppsh sounds are pretty easy to differentiate from nagants.

    And it shouldn't take you the time it takes 4 shock models to kill a full-health fusi squad to notice something is different.

«1
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.